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My Thoughts on Crimson Flower (1st Playthrough)


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9 hours ago, NolanBaumgartner said:

Realistically, could we even get to Crimson Flower?

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From a narrative standpoint, my problem with Edelgard-as-Flame-Emperor is that her association with TWSITD doesn't just grays the morality of her actions, but that it SHOULD have been a major, perhaps even irreconcilable fault line between herself and Byleth. She orchestrated the bandit attack. She had Jeritza kidnap Flayn. She assisted TWSTID in some of their brutal, murderous pursuits. She even had the balls to give a CEO-during-restructuring type of speech to Byleth after Jeralt's murder, even though she was indirectly irresponsible for it via her associating with "Monica"/TWSITD. Hell, "Monica" is inseparable from Edelgard in the chapters leading up to her true identity reveal. That she "disavowed" TWSITD's methods shouldn't have mattered, considering the consequences. 

Last but not least, there's the attack on the Holy Tomb. This genuinely makes 0 logical sense on the Crimson Flower route. If Byleth had sufficient support, not only she revealed to them her Crest of Flames but also had them vouch for her in her ascent to Emperor. Both actions not only imply an incredible amount of trust and recognition of Byleth's strength, but also made the Flame Emperor masquerade really easy to figure out. Either way, the consequence of the attack is that Edelgard shows herself willing to have Byleth and her classmates killed over Crest Stones, and to die herself if the attempt failed, without ever cluing in someone she ostensibly trusted to the highest degree and who would obviously be the main foil to her plan. I feel like this part only made it to the final product because doing otherwise would've required a redesign of Chapter 11 just for the Edelgard route, effectively starting Crimson Flower earlier. 

Despite all this, Byleth chose to not execute her. At the very, very least, the camp before the monastery retake could've been where all of the crap that she pulled as Flame Emperor that came to hurt Byleth one way or the other should've been laid bare. And it just never happens. Worse, she maintains associate (albeit uneasy) with TWSTID throughout the game - we've talked plenty about that, but it only accentuates how strained the relationship should've been and it does worsen the quality of the story. Although it's beaten over everyone's head how Edelgard's actions leads her to become seemingly evil, the way she personally hurt Byleth and her peers is just not addressed.

If the writing was tighter, the pre-Holy Tomb situation could've been such that Edelgard either willingly reveals her plot to Byleth to enlist them as allies, or Byleth figures out the Flame Emperor charade. Then Byleth could've had the choice to either go ahead with her, or reject her plans. Even without the necessary support level, it would've made actual sense instead of the intellectually insulting mess that made to the game.

 

 

Small Corrections: Edelgard didn't have Jeritza kidnap Flayn though; after the attack on Seiros' Tomb, The Flame Emperor loaned the Death Knight to TWSITD as part of a deal. TWSITD then had Jeritza abduct Flayn. It's the same reason that the Death Knight is at Remire Village two months later even though the Flame Emperor had no idea that Solon was going to do his experiment. 

Also, I would say that Edelgard's speech was less of a CEO-during-restructuring speech and more of a tough-love speech; it's the sort of speech one can imagine she gives herself to cope with the loss of her siblings. 

I agree that the Holy Tomb mission is a mess. I don't think it requires that drastic a change to fix, but yeah; it could've been handled a lot better so the decision moment wasn't nearly so jarring. 

 

8 hours ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

I also think that Edelgard's ideals are actually very similar to that of the French Revolution and I have made comparisons between her and Napoleon in the past. Her alliance with the slitherers is unfortunate but it is also clear to me that she really don't have much of an alternative, given how much power they have in the Empire. To my understanding Thales was behind the insurrection of the seven and have had power over the imperial royal line for most of Edelgard's life. Everything you describe is why I consider Edelgard such a great character, she really makes you think about the very nature of good and evil, and their relationship between someone's core character, motivation and actions. And as a result of contemplating these things I have learned a lot about myself and how I view these topics. I don't think there is an objective answer, as each person would see someone like Edelgard differently, in my mind her good intentions overshadow everything else. Whenever she is right or not is unclear as that would require me to know every single potential outcome of this war and what kind of future they would lead to for quite a long time into the future, more so than the game is providing. But I do think that she was basically tricked into declaring this war as Thales has been planning exactly this for a very long time, that Edelgard also managed to get rid of Thales and his minions, so whatever damage was done during the war, his evil was eventually undone. Thanks to Edelgard. Antihero and Antivillain I think the terms that best describe who Edelgard is, which is the case, does depend on whenever you join her or not.

I'm pretty sure Thales didn't replace Arundal until well after the Insurrection of the Seven.

As far as I recall, the Insurrection of the Seven is the event that forced Arundal to take Edelgard and her mother to Fearghus; correct? Then one day, Arundal abruptly brought Edelgard back to Adrestia and the experiments commenced. I think Arundal was replaced by Thales at some point while they were in Fearghus, and so the experiments were TWSITD's doing, but the Insurrection of the Seven was entirely the seven nobles' doing.

The timeline around these events is a bit messy, so, if I'm wrong, could someone please explain?

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58 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

 

Small Corrections: Edelgard didn't have Jeritza kidnap Flayn though; after the attack on Seiros' Tomb, The Flame Emperor loaned the Death Knight to TWSITD as part of a deal. TWSITD then had Jeritza abduct Flayn. It's the same reason that the Death Knight is at Remire Village two months later even though the Flame Emperor had no idea that Solon was going to do his experiment. 

Also, I would say that Edelgard's speech was less of a CEO-during-restructuring speech and more of a tough-love speech; it's the sort of speech one can imagine she gives herself to cope with the loss of her siblings. 

I agree that the Holy Tomb mission is a mess. I don't think it requires that drastic a change to fix, but yeah; it could've been handled a lot better so the decision moment wasn't nearly so jarring. 

 

I'm pretty sure Thales didn't replace Arundal until well after the Insurrection of the Seven.

As far as I recall, the Insurrection of the Seven is the event that forced Arundal to take Edelgard and her mother to Fearghus; correct? Then one day, Arundal abruptly brought Edelgard back to Adrestia and the experiments commenced. I think Arundal was replaced by Thales at some point while they were in Fearghus, and so the experiments were TWSITD's doing, but the Insurrection of the Seven was entirely the seven nobles' doing.

The timeline around these events is a bit messy, so, if I'm wrong, could someone please explain?

The Insurrection of the Seven was an event that occured entirely outside of TWSITD's scope of action, they simply benefitted off of it. Edelgard's father was rather power hungry and tried to consolidate all power unto the Emperor's position, heavily punishing houses that acted against him; House Ordelia and Hrym for example, Ordelia had much of it's higher ranking members replaced by Empire officials(some which included TWSITD agents)

Thales simply took Arundel's body at some point after the Insurrection occured, by the time Edelgard was taken back to the empire it was almost certainly Thales acting as him.

Edited by Axel987
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On 2/19/2020 at 11:33 PM, Darkmoon6789 said:

You mean how you said that they almost tried too hard in making Edelgard sympathetic? I can see the argument, but it didn't bother me personally. If anything, it just made me more confused about how anyone could consider Edelgard to be evil, at the very least, not crimson flower Edelgard. I had heard that Edelgard was considered quite controversial before I even got into the game, but given that reputation I actually expected much worse. I am an experienced Devils advocate, but defending Edelgard is easy mode, I have defended characters who are way worse than her. Normally I make the argument that a character perceived as evil is actually some version of a neutral alignment, but in case of Edelgard I would go as far as to say that she is legitimately of a good alignment. Despite popular belief, I do think it is completely possible for a good aligned character to do bad things, they just need to believe that what we are doing is right and have an unselfish motivation for doing so. 

I think one reason that people can still see Edelgard as "evil" despite her sympathetic moments would be that they think along the lines of, "'She committed all these acts, but she adorably hides in her room for a month over a painting she drew of you' is a weak excuse", as in they see the moments where they try too hard, and say that that doesn't justify it. I suppose they're coming from the perspective that, just because you see a villain do something nice or sweet or adorable, it doesn't make them not evil or a villain. If that's the case, then it's a valid point, but I still wouldn't necessarily call Edelgard a villain as we'd then have to discuss if that point applies in this case, and I don't think it does.

Even from just a writing perspective, a villain is a character that the heroes are morally obligated to oppose. Because of Three Houses' multiple paths and nuance to the conflict, it would be hard to call anyone a villain outside of TWSITD. Even Rhea in Crimson Flower can only really be considered an antagonist. 

 

On 2/19/2020 at 11:33 PM, Darkmoon6789 said:

I think you said something about that Edelgard possibly being not quite believable as she is presented, you could have a point as I am also not certain if a person like Edelgard could really exist, despite being prone to mistakes. She is incredibly unselfish to the point that she is willing to sacrifice not only her personal desires, but her very life to what she considers the greater good, she even refuses to indulge herself in something as simple as sweets before her task is completed. She dedicates nearly all her time to work, fights on the front lines, together with her soldiers and is even willing to help out with work around the monastery , despite being the freaking Emperor. I am not sure a leader like this has existed in the entire history of humanity, so maybe it isn't entirely believable. But she still managed to come across as a very human character who is far more than a cold conquering Emperor. 

It is actually this dichotomy between Edelgard's very pure, self-sacrificing personality and her actions starting bloodbath on a massive scale for the sake of a greater good that makes her so interesting in my opinion. Sorry, I just really like talking about Edelgard, you might have noticed her being my favourite character in this entire game

I didn't say that Edelgard isn't believable; I said that I wasn't sure, as in that I would need to think about it a bit more. I was mainly just trying to say that Edelgard definitely fits the first three things I listed: Dimensional, Fascinating, and Compelling. 

When I was asking what you felt about the point about the character writing thing I mentioned, I more was asking what you felt about said character writing thing specifically: that great characters should be dimensional, fascinating, compelling and believable, and that sympathetic, likeable and relatable are not bad, but shouldn't be sought after as they can be misused. 

It's okay; I created this thread to talk about Crimson Flower, and Edelgard's a big part of Crimson Flower. Feel free to talk plenty about Edelgard. 

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7 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

 

Small Corrections: Edelgard didn't have Jeritza kidnap Flayn though; after the attack on Seiros' Tomb, The Flame Emperor loaned the Death Knight to TWSITD as part of a deal. TWSITD then had Jeritza abduct Flayn. It's the same reason that the Death Knight is at Remire Village two months later even though the Flame Emperor had no idea that Solon was going to do his experiment. 

Also, I would say that Edelgard's speech was less of a CEO-during-restructuring speech and more of a tough-love speech; it's the sort of speech one can imagine she gives herself to cope with the loss of her siblings. 

I agree that the Holy Tomb mission is a mess. I don't think it requires that drastic a change to fix, but yeah; it could've been handled a lot better so the decision moment wasn't nearly so jarring. 

 

I'm pretty sure Thales didn't replace Arundal until well after the Insurrection of the Seven.

As far as I recall, the Insurrection of the Seven is the event that forced Arundal to take Edelgard and her mother to Fearghus; correct? Then one day, Arundal abruptly brought Edelgard back to Adrestia and the experiments commenced. I think Arundal was replaced by Thales at some point while they were in Fearghus, and so the experiments were TWSITD's doing, but the Insurrection of the Seven was entirely the seven nobles' doing.

The timeline around these events is a bit messy, so, if I'm wrong, could someone please explain?

To my understanding, it is true that Thales replaced Arundel while they were in Faerghus, while I can't prove this, I do believe that Thales was pulling strings in the Empire for far longer than that under a different guise. While he might not have been personally involved in the insurrection, I do think is actions led him to put it into motion. The insurrection was a vital part of the plans fo those who slither in the dark. 

4 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

I think one reason that people can still see Edelgard as "evil" despite her sympathetic moments would be that they think along the lines of, "'She committed all these acts, but she adorably hides in her room for a month over a painting she drew of you' is a weak excuse", as in they see the moments where they try too hard, and say that that doesn't justify it. I suppose they're coming from the perspective that, just because you see a villain do something nice or sweet or adorable, it doesn't make them not evil or a villain. If that's the case, then it's a valid point, but I still wouldn't necessarily call Edelgard a villain as we'd then have to discuss if that point applies in this case, and I don't think it does.

Even from just a writing perspective, a villain is a character that the heroes are morally obligated to oppose. Because of Three Houses' multiple paths and nuance to the conflict, it would be hard to call anyone a villain outside of TWSITD. Even Rhea in Crimson Flower can only really be considered an antagonist. 

 

I didn't say that Edelgard isn't believable; I said that I wasn't sure, as in that I would need to think about it a bit more. I was mainly just trying to say that Edelgard definitely fits the first three things I listed: Dimensional, Fascinating, and Compelling. 

When I was asking what you felt about the point about the character writing thing I mentioned, I more was asking what you felt about said character writing thing specifically: that great characters should be dimensional, fascinating, compelling and believable, and that sympathetic, likeable and relatable are not bad, but shouldn't be sought after as they can be misused. 

It's okay; I created this thread to talk about Crimson Flower, and Edelgard's a big part of Crimson Flower. Feel free to talk plenty about Edelgard. 

I would agree that Thales and his cult are pretty much the only true evil characters in this entire game. Edelgard might associate with them, but it is also rather clear that she would rather not if she felt she had any alternative. I do think one of the reasons why this bothers me less than that of others is because I don't truly hold Edelgard responsible for the actions of the Slitherers, might have been allies, but they are still two completely different factions. I do ultimately believe that Rhea is in the wrong, she is still somewhat sympathetic. Due two being motivated by grief, wanting nothing more than to return her mother to the world. She is pretty much the embodiment of the refusing to let go of the past. I have seen some people argue that Edelgard is insincere and is manipulating the player, but I don't get that impression at all, I think this side she shows Byleth is her true personality, is the ruthless conqueror that is the facade. Some other people who consider Edelgard to be evil simply has such a different view of morality than I do so that I hate noticed that there is simply no reconsidering our views. In my case, Edelgard has proven that maybe it is a mistake to judge the person by their actions alone without considering the context. I am also extremly opposed to eye for an eye, as a general principle. I think it is nothing but glorified vengeance. 

I do think that Edelgard is pretty well written overall, there are some writing mistakes at times, but it is not enough to ruin her character or the story. Edelgard is in my opinion, one of the most compelling characters I have come across in a long time. 

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1 hour ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

To my understanding, it is true that Thales replaced Arundel while they were in Faerghus, while I can't prove this, I do believe that Thales was pulling strings in the Empire for far longer than that under a different guise. While he might not have been personally involved in the insurrection, I do think is actions led him to put it into motion. The insurrection was a vital part of the plans for those who slither in the dark. 

Eh; I would more likely believe that Thales was an opportunist; he likely didn't plan for the Insurrection, but once he saw the opportunity it created, he could not let it slip by. 

Quote

 [Rhea] is pretty much the embodiment of the refusing to let go of the past.

Is this why she and Dimitri get along fairly well post-timeskip?

In all seriousness, this reminds me of something: I do think the game could've justified things being a bit more... equal and more of a three-way fight between the Empire, Kingdom and Alliance rather than have the Empire singlehandedly holding their own against everyone: 

  • Dimitri would ally with the Church of Seiros: they'd help him with get vengeance on Edelgard, tell him they support his dream of a less "strong trampling on the weak" Fodlan, and in exchange he'd protect them. Kingdom & Church together could easily have been written as stronger than it seemed to be in Crimson Flower.
  • Claude opens up Fodlan to Almyra; the Leicester Alliance has no choice but to accept their help, while everyone else sees it as an Almyran invasion.

All this is basically to say that I think that, if they weren't going to have Edelgard fight TWSITD, they could've squeezed some more chapters out of the Alliance & Almyra and The Kingdom & Church by making them stronger without it being unrealistic. 

Edited by vanguard333
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5 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

Eh; I would more likely believe that Thales was an opportunist; he likely didn't plan for the Insurrection, but once he saw the opportunity it created, he could not let it slip by. 

Maybe so, but the Slitherers has been spreading political discontent to benefit their goals in the past, so it can't be ruled out they had something to do with it. He was most definitely involved in the assassination of King Lambert however. And whenever he was behind the insurrection or not, it did use it to his benefit, as you say. 

Also, one ironic thing with the original Arundel is that he might have actually cared for Edelgard, he might have been a good guy before he was replaced. Which makes the whole thing quite tragic. I am not sure if Arundel was involved in the insurrection, but I don't think he became a part of it until after he was replaced, otherwise I don't see why he would save Edelgard.

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2 hours ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

Maybe so, but the Slitherers has been spreading political discontent to benefit their goals in the past, so it can't be ruled out they had something to do with it. He was most definitely involved in the assassination of King Lambert however. And whenever he was behind the insurrection or not, it did use it to his benefit, as you say. 

Also, one ironic thing with the original Arundel is that he might have actually cared for Edelgard, he might have been a good guy before he was replaced. Which makes the whole thing quite tragic. I am not sure if Arundel was involved in the insurrection, but I don't think he became a part of it until after he was replaced, otherwise I don't see why he would save Edelgard.

Blue Lions spoilers (I'm guessing) much with that first paragraph?

Might have? Odds are that the original Arundel did. He was her uncle after all, and on her mother's side at that, which, by media-logic, usually means they were a good uncle. (Tip: if an uncle in a piece of media is the father's brother, odds are that they're evil. If they're the mother's brother, odds are that they're good and that they may even end up raising the hero. Don't ask me why it is; I just simply noticed the trend). I wouldn't say that that's ironic though; just tragic. Torn from her father, torn from her mother, then forced to watch her siblings die while an imposter paraded around in her uncle's image. 

…Which makes it particularly jarring to me that Edelgard sometimes refers to the person she knows is an imposter that killed her uncle as, "Uncle" even in private. I would imagine that she would hate it every time someone referred to him as that; that she would say he doesn't deserve that title and that the real Arundel was a greater man than he could ever hope to be, and every other way she could express contempt for Thales using Arundel's name and appearance.  

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5 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

Blue Lions spoilers (I'm guessing) much with that first paragraph?

Might have? Odds are that the original Arundel did. He was her uncle after all, and on her mother's side at that, which, by media-logic, usually means they were a good uncle. (Tip: if an uncle in a piece of media is the father's brother, odds are that they're evil. If they're the mother's brother, odds are that they're good and that they may even end up raising the hero. Don't ask me why it is; I just simply noticed the trend). I wouldn't say that that's ironic though; just tragic. Torn from her father, torn from her mother, then forced to watch her siblings die while an imposter paraded around in her uncle's image. 

…Which makes it particularly jarring to me that Edelgard sometimes refers to the person she knows is an imposter that killed her uncle as, "Uncle" even in private. I would imagine that she would hate it every time someone referred to him as that; that she would say he doesn't deserve that title and that the real Arundel was a greater man than he could ever hope to be, and every other way she could express contempt for Thales using Arundel's name and appearance.  

It is less of a Blue Lions, spoiler and more just me referencing what Edelgard said after she killed Dimitri. The assassination of King Lambert, was the thing that triggered the tragedy of Duskur and the thing that Dimitri blames Edelgard for. I happen to know way more about this, but that would be a spoiler for the Blue Lions, just know that Edelgard is telling the truth when she says she is innocent of that crime

Sometimes I am not been entirely certain if Edelgard actually knew that Thales was impersonating her uncle. But it is also possible that she just couldn't let anyone, not even the people closest to her know who Arundel really was due to them becoming a target for Thales if they knew the truth, so she begrudgingly always called him uncle. She probably hates every moment of it. If her real uncle was kind to her. But Edelgard does a lot of things she hates, including working with Thales in the first place and I never get the impression she ever enjoys the bloodshed during the war. 

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20 hours ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

It is less of a Blue Lions, spoiler and more just me referencing what Edelgard said after she killed Dimitri. The assassination of King Lambert, was the thing that triggered the tragedy of Duskur and the thing that Dimitri blames Edelgard for. I happen to know way more about this, but that would be a spoiler for the Blue Lions, just know that Edelgard is telling the truth when she says she is innocent of that crime

Ah, yes. Silly me for forgetting that. Of course she was innocent; how old was she when the Tragedy of Duscur happened?

20 hours ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

Sometimes I am not been entirely certain if Edelgard actually knew that Thales was impersonating her uncle. But it is also possible that she just couldn't let anyone, not even the people closest to her know who Arundel really was due to them becoming a target for Thales if they knew the truth, so she begrudgingly always called him uncle. She probably hates every moment of it. If her real uncle was kind to her. But Edelgard does a lot of things she hates, including working with Thales in the first place and I never get the impression she ever enjoys the bloodshed during the war. 

I'm pretty sure she's well-aware. She's seen both Thales and Arundel and spoken with them as if knowing they're the same person. 

Yet another reason why we should've gotten chapters where she fights TWSITD; could you imagine the boss conversation between her and Thales:

Thales: "[…] (Changes briefly into Arundel) You really think you can strike down your uncle?" 

Edelgard: "'Uncle'? You know; I am sick of calling you, 'uncle'! My uncle was a good man! Of all the things I had to put up with when breathing the same air as you, watching your poor imitation of Arundel was probably the worst! You could never hope to hold a candle to the real Arundel." 

Not my best piece of dialogue, but I hope it gives some idea of the potential there. 

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5 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

Ah, yes. Silly me for forgetting that. Of course she was innocent; how old was she when the Tragedy of Duscur happened?

I'm pretty sure she's well-aware. She's seen both Thales and Arundel and spoken with them as if knowing they're the same person. 

Yet another reason why we should've gotten chapters where she fights TWSITD; could you imagine the boss conversation between her and Thales:

Thales: "[…] (Changes briefly into Arundel) You really think you can strike down your uncle?" 

Edelgard: "'Uncle'? You know; I am sick of calling you, 'uncle'! My uncle was a good man! Of all the things I had to put up with when breathing the same air as you, watching your poor imitation of Arundel was probably the worst! You could never hope to hold a candle to the real Arundel." 

Not my best piece of dialogue, but I hope it gives some idea of the potential there. 

I think she was about 12 years old when the tragedy happened. I am also quite certain that she was spending that time locked in a dungeon being experimented upon. Not pleasant memories for her. The sad thing is that if Dimitri would give her a chance to explain then I think the both of them could actually have a chance of relating to the others trauma. They went through quite the ordeal, and while this separated them. It could also bring them together if we actually trust each other.

You know, I was actually thinking of writing a story that takes place after the ending of crimson flower and depicts the shadow war against Thales and his followers. I was intending to explore Edelgard's emotions about the aftermatch of the war and her dealing with the heavy burden of being responsible for so much death. One thing in particular would haunt her more than the rest, the death of Dimitri, whom she still loved and she wonders to herself daily if there was truly no other way and if she did the right decision. Nightmares throughout this time would be more intense than previously, about both events during the war and the blood reconstruction surgery. Byleth serving as emotional support for her during this time, while Hubert tracks down those who slither in the dark. The story is mostly going to focus on the perspective of the three of them.

Thales, knowing the psychology of Edelgard pretty well will pull every trick he can to exploit her vulnerabilities, using his magic to control the swarms of rats to devour everything in their path and spread destruction throughout the Empire. As well as reanimating the corpse of Dimitri as an unstoppable terror to hunt down Edelgard. The circumstances will force Edelgard to come to terms with the trauma she experienced during the experiments, the consequences of the war and her personal guilt in the death of Dimitri in order to bring down Thales once and for all.

You like this idea? I think that stories taking place in this time period has potential as it is essentially untold in the game itself. Which leaves a lot of room when writing a story.

Edited by Darkmoon6789
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On 2/21/2020 at 6:22 AM, vanguard333 said:

 

Small Corrections: Edelgard didn't have Jeritza kidnap Flayn though; after the attack on Seiros' Tomb, The Flame Emperor loaned the Death Knight to TWSITD as part of a deal. TWSITD then had Jeritza abduct Flayn. It's the same reason that the Death Knight is at Remire Village two months later even though the Flame Emperor had no idea that Solon was going to do his experiment. 

Also, I would say that Edelgard's speech was less of a CEO-during-restructuring speech and more of a tough-love speech; it's the sort of speech one can imagine she gives herself to cope with the loss of her siblings. 

I agree that the Holy Tomb mission is a mess. I don't think it requires that drastic a change to fix, but yeah; it could've been handled a lot better so the decision moment wasn't nearly so jarring. 

Thanks for the correction on the use of DK/Jeritza. Although I'm not sure how much "better" that is. Edelgard evidently knows better than anyone how messed TWSITD are, and how mentally crippled Jeritza is. When trying to explain the decision to other people it seems impossible to not share culpability on what TWSITD had Jeritza do. 

Which segways into her speech after Jeralt's death. My first impression was exactly as you said - Edelgard trying to get Byleth back on their feet with harsh but fair observations. But then I thought the CEO comparison was better because Edelgard is after all, partially complicit for Jeralt's death by collaborating with TWSITD (and though never explicitly stated, likely deflecting suspicion from "Monica" by overtly socializing with her). It does bother me a lot that Edelgard never acknowledges, let alone take some responsibility for the harm caused to Byleth by TWSITD as she otherwise is extremely aware of the indirect consequences of her actions. The speech per se isn't out of character, but that Edelgard's own degree of involvement is never brought up by either Edelgard or Byleth seem to me like a story writing gap. 

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20 minutes ago, NolanBaumgartner said:

Thanks for the correction on the use of DK/Jeritza. Although I'm not sure how much "better" that is. Edelgard evidently knows better than anyone how messed TWSITD are, and how mentally crippled Jeritza is. When trying to explain the decision to other people it seems impossible to not share culpability on what TWSITD had Jeritza do. 

Which segways into her speech after Jeralt's death. My first impression was exactly as you said - Edelgard trying to get Byleth back on their feet with harsh but fair observations. But then I thought the CEO comparison was better because Edelgard is after all, partially complicit for Jeralt's death by collaborating with TWSITD (and though never explicitly stated, likely deflecting suspicion from "Monica" by overtly socializing with her). It does bother me a lot that Edelgard never acknowledges, let alone take some responsibility for the harm caused to Byleth by TWSITD as she otherwise is extremely aware of the indirect consequences of her actions. The speech per se isn't out of character, but that Edelgard's own degree of involvement is never brought up by either Edelgard or Byleth seem to me like a story writing gap. 

Well, the speach happened before the reveal, so she couldn't really say anything incriminating. Byleth never really brought up her role in Jeralts death either. I can understabnd Byleth forgiving Edelgard as Byleth cares about Edelgard as well as don't want to see her get hurt

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Honestly my biggest issue with Jeritza is that he doesn't have any supports with Edelgard and she uh, never really explains his whole...deal. It's more than a bit disturbing that she picked up someone who slaughtered his entire family outside of Mercedes, gave him a new identity, made him the heir of another house, a stable job at Garreg Mach and hunting grounds where he could kill people where she saw fit.

This is basically never adressed to my knowledge and it's quite disturbing tbh. A shame because Jeritza as a character had a LOT of potential IMO but he's kind of relegated to this weird mix of a gag and recurring antagonist.

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18 minutes ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

Well, the speach happened before the reveal, so she couldn't really say anything incriminating. Byleth never really brought up her role in Jeralts death either. I can understabnd Byleth forgiving Edelgard as Byleth cares about Edelgard as well as don't want to see her get hurt

True that she couldn't really bring it up at that specific juncture, just annoying that it's forgotten entirely, as well as Byleth never being able to figure out the Flame Emperor despite it being really obvious in CF. 

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7 minutes ago, NolanBaumgartner said:

 

@Axel987is that ever hinted at in his supports and monastery conversations? I downloaded the updates only before the final CF chapters so that's when I got Jeritza, pretty crappy if the whole "how did he even get to work with Edelgard" thing was never explained. 

 

Edit: Meant to quote Axel and I can't figure how to fix the quoting on mobile lol

Edited by NolanBaumgartner
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2 minutes ago, NolanBaumgartner said:

Is that ever hinted at in his supports and monastery conversations? I downloaded the updates only before the final CF chapters so that's when I got Jeritza, pretty crappy if the whole "how did he even get to work with Edelgard" thing was never explained. 

It is explained by Jeritza either in support conversation with him or in Monastery dialogue (can't remember which off the top of my head), but he doesn't go into great detail about it.

Basically, Edelgard found him some time after he snapped, and she gave him a new identity as Jeritza as well as some ways of keeping the Death Knight in check (namely by giving him specific targets to aim at). She then took him to a noble house that had run out of heirs and was on the verge of collapse and had them adopt him. Indebted to her and needing to keep working for her to keep the Death Knight in check, he continued to work for her. 

In his supports with Mercedes, it's revealed that he's her younger brother who had to stay behind when she and her mom fled the Empire. He found out that his dad found out where they were hiding and planned to have them captured and brought back to him (Jeritza's dad). Since Mercedes' mother was past the point of having kids, he planned on using Mercedes to have more Crest-bearing children. Hearing all this, Jeritza snapped and killed his dad. …But he didn't just kill his dad; he also killed all his dad's officials and everyone else even remotely involved in the plot. In order to cope, he created the Death Knight less as an alternate-personality and more as Jeritza free of inhibitions, including the inhibition against killing others.

It's a real Jekyll and Hyde. Funny enough, in the original book, Hyde wasn't an alternate personality either, but similarly was Jekyll free of all inhibitions. 

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5 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

It is explained by Jeritza either in support conversation with him or in Monastery dialogue (can't remember which off the top of my head), but he doesn't go into great detail about it.

Basically, Edelgard found him some time after he snapped, and she gave him a new identity as Jeritza as well as some ways of keeping the Death Knight in check (namely by giving him specific targets to aim at). She then took him to a noble house that had run out of heirs and was on the verge of collapse and had them adopt him. Indebted to her and needing to keep working for her to keep the Death Knight in check, he continued to work for her. 

In his supports with Mercedes, it's revealed that he's her younger brother who had to stay behind when she and her mom fled the Empire. He found out that his dad found out where they were hiding and planned to have them captured and brought back to him (Jeritza's dad). Since Mercedes' mother was past the point of having kids, he planned on using Mercedes to have more Crest-bearing children. Hearing all this, Jeritza snapped and killed his dad. …But he didn't just kill his dad; he also killed all his dad's officials and everyone else even remotely involved in the plot. In order to cope, he created the Death Knight less as an alternate-personality and more as Jeritza free of inhibitions, including the inhibition against killing others.

It's a real Jekyll and Hyde. Funny enough, in the original book, Hyde wasn't an alternate personality either, but similarly was Jekyll free of all inhibitions. 

Thanks for the explanation.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Something else that I just remembered that I had a small issue with in Crimson Flower. As I believe I said, I recruited Ashe. The reason Ashe gives for siding with you in chapter 12 is that he wants answers about Lonato and Lonato's son, and it's implied that his attitude towards the Church in this moment stems from the Western Church papers he found in his paralogue. However, this never comes up again.

I can kind-of understand it, given that Ashe is an optional character in Crimson Flower that you have to recruit from the Blue Lions. But still, nothing at all? Not even a unique boss conversation with Catherine? (I tried that twice: once in chapter 12, and again in the final chapter. All she says is her default boss quote). Something, even something small like a unique boss conversation with Catherine where he brings up what the papers said and says something like, "Lonato's blood was on the Western Church's hands, but Christophe's blood is on yours." or something like that would've gone a long way. 

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4 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

Something else that I just remembered that I had a small issue with in Crimson Flower. As I believe I said, I recruited Ashe. The reason Ashe gives for siding with you in chapter 12 is that he wants answers about Lonato and Lonato's son, and it's implied that his attitude towards the Church in this moment stems from the Western Church papers he found in his paralogue. However, this never comes up again.

I can kind-of understand it, given that Ashe is an optional character in Crimson Flower that you have to recruit from the Blue Lions. But still, nothing at all? Not even a unique boss conversation with Catherine? (I tried that twice: once in chapter 12, and again in the final chapter. All she says is her default boss quote). Something, even something small like a unique boss conversation with Catherine where he brings up what the papers said and says something like, "Lonato's blood was on the Western Church's hands, but Christophe's blood is on yours." or something like that would've gone a long way. 

Didn't experience this for myself as I never recruited Ashe, but it does seem other characters do have unique dialogue, as in the case of Felix and his father, Felix has quite a bit of unique dialogue in Crimson flower in fact, if you use in during the Arianrhod mission, so I guess it is just inconsistent

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On 2/21/2020 at 9:19 AM, Axel987 said:

The Insurrection of the Seven was an event that occured entirely outside of TWSITD's scope of action, they simply benefitted off of it. Edelgard's father was rather power hungry and tried to consolidate all power unto the Emperor's position, heavily punishing houses that acted against him; House Ordelia and Hrym for example, Ordelia had much of it's higher ranking members replaced by Empire officials(some which included TWSITD agents)

Thales simply took Arundel's body at some point after the Insurrection occured, by the time Edelgard was taken back to the empire it was almost certainly Thales acting as him.

How do we know when Arundel's body was swapped? Remember that Edelgard's mother was implicated in the Tragedy of Duscur. It's far more likely that Arundel and his sister (Edelgard's mother) were always TWSITD or at least had been for some time. 

There's nothing that I can remember that says TWSITD had nothing to do with the insurrection either. Like it makes sense that is why Arundel orchestrated it. 

Edited by Quillmonger
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5 minutes ago, Quillmonger said:

How do we know when Arundel's body was swapped? Remember that Edelgard's mother was implicated in the Tragedy of Duscur. It's far more likely that Arundel and his sister (Edelgard's mother) were always TWSITD or at least had been for some time. 

There's nothing that I can remember that says TWSITD had nothing to do with the insurrection either. Like it makes sense that is why Arundel orchestrated it. 

Seems weird that Arundel would choose to flee to the kingdom with Edelgard, then decide to return with Edelgard, and suddenly decide to stop donating to the Church. It's behavior inconsistent with his prior motives and behavior.

The Slitherers simply taking advantage of civil unrest is pretty on point with what they do. So is nobles disliking having their power wrested away from them.

Edited by Crysta
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2 minutes ago, Crysta said:

Seems weird that Arundel would choose to flee to the kingdom with Edelgard, then decide to return with Edelgard, and suddenly decide to stop donating to the Church. It's behavior inconsistent with his prior motives and behavior.

The Slitherers simply taking advantage of civil unrest is pretty on point with what they do. So is nobles disliking having their power wrested away from them.

The reason I think he wasn't replaced until they already were in the kingdom is because Arundel presumably took Edelgard to the kingdom to protect her from the insurgents. Which seems a bit odd if he was already Thales. I am not sure if the real Arundel was already a participant in the insurrection, but if he was I am not certain why he would flee to Faerghus with Edelgard.

Granted, there is another possibility, as it seems Edelgard was used as a hostage to get Patricia to cooperate with Thales in killing the king. Was that the real purpose she was brought to the kingdom?

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7 minutes ago, Crysta said:

Seems weird that Arundel would choose to flee to the kingdom with Edelgard, then decide to return with Edelgard, and suddenly decide to stop donating to the Church. It's behavior inconsistent with his prior motives and behavior.

The Slitherers simply taking advantage of civil unrest is pretty on point with what they do. So is nobles disliking having their power wrested away from them.

I can't remember when the donations stopped, but it could coincide with some other issue like the insurrection (unless it's been given date I forgot) but the sister thing is more out there to me. It really only makes sense one of a few ways, they're both TWSITD and always have been, they're both TWSITD and got that way after the insurrection, or one of them was turned first (probably the sister) and turned the other  (she led Arundel away to get to the Kingdom and do her work there).  

Edited by Quillmonger
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4 minutes ago, Quillmonger said:

I can't remember when the donations stopped, but it could coincide with some other issue like the insurrection (unless it's been given date I forgot) but the sister thing is more out there to me. It really only makes sense one of two ways, they're both TWSITD and always have been, they're both TWSITD and got that way after the insurrection, or one of them was turned first (probably the sister) and turned the other  (she led Arundel away to get to the Kingdom and do her work there).  

Patricia sounds like a normal woman who was being manipulated by Cornelia (definitely a Slitherer) than one herself, which is supported further in Hapi's support chain with Dimitri.

Arundel's stop in donations makes Dimitri suspicious, and the sudden stop likely occurred some time after Duscur, but I forget the exact date if there was one in the library books.

Edited by Crysta
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Figuring out when important characters were "replaced" by TWSITD, or whether they were Argathians all along would have definitively benefitted from an explicit exposition, rather than "show, don't tell". It adds too many question marks surrounding key events that set the foundations to the story, specially when part of the overarching conflict is due to characters experiencing/remembering said events differently. 

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