My Thoughts on Crimson Flower (1st Playthrough)

[omegaxis1]

Just now, vanguard333 said:

Thanks for the correction.

As for the rest, fair enough. Still, it doesn't have to be brought up as much for it to still be clear what the effects will be, and the game isn't clear at all with how she's going to be affected by it. 

Does it? 

It seems like it should be an obvious inference that Edelgard, having two Crests, would suffer the exact same burdens of short lifespan as Lysithea. 

That's what Lysithea literally states herself. Why are we to claim that Edelgard doesn't suffer this when never once it's been stated to be something that can be subverted? 

[Crysta]

It's an "obvious inference" but we do not get the same emphasis on a shortened lifespan / afflicted health with Edelgard than we do with Lysithea, and that's noteworthy. Even if you argue it's because she doesn't value her own life so lament so much (honestly I think this getting headcanon-y), I'd expect some indication that she's winded while physically exerting herself or something like Lysithea is. It isn't simply Lysithea complaining a lot.

Edited March 23, 2020 by Crysta

[Ivan Tridelan]

 

16 hours ago, Crysta said:

It's an "obvious inference" but we do not get the same emphasis on a shortened lifespan / afflicted health with Edelgard than we do with Lysithea, and that's noteworthy. Even if you argue it's because she doesn't value her own life so lament so much (honestly I think this getting headcanon-y), I'd expect some indication that she's winded while physically exerting herself or something like Lysithea is. It isn't simply Lysithea complaining a lot.

Lysithea is younger and a pure mage type as opposed to Edelgard's axe focus. Furthermore, Edelgard has the Crest of Flames plus a Minor Crest of Seiros while Lysithea has Major Gloucester and Minor Charon which probably has something to do with it as well. Edelgard also implies shortened lifespan with how much she's rushing to get her plans done as opposed to being a bit more cautious and methodical. Lysithea is also more conscious of her age (which only further emphasizes her shortened life expectancy), and her only real goal is to make sure her parents can retire comfortably, which shouldn't be that hard compared to Edelgard's entire life being dedicated to completely overturning Fodlan's culture. Edelgard's personality isn't inclined towards complaining anyways, and her need to appear strong at all times only further reduces the likelihood of her mentioning a shortened life span.

Side note: Lysithea's experimentation came first so it's possible the side effects are decidedly less pronounced in Edelgard (especially the health side).

IIRC in one of Lysithea's supports with Hanneman (or possibly Lindhart) he mentions that having two crests would undoubtedly have a negative impact on the body.

TLDR: There's no reason to conclude the Edelgard does NOT have a shortened lifespan, but the evidence to PROVE that she does is circumstantial at best.

[eclipse]

2 hours ago, Ivan Tridelan said:

TLDR: There's no reason to conclude the Edelgard does NOT have a shortened lifespan, but the evidence to PROVE that she does is circumstantial at best.

Edelgard doesn't seem like the patient type, if Dimitri's recollection of her as kids is any indication.  She has a few things going for her:

1. She seems to have an overall better constitution than Lysithea.
2. Lysithea went first.
3. She was probably older when the experiments started on her.

For all we know, her lifespan could be "shorter" - but instead of Lysithea, who's worried about dropping dead prematurely, it could very well mean that Edelgard dies at 65 instead of 70!

[Ivan Tridelan]

44 minutes ago, eclipse said:

Edelgard doesn't seem like the patient type, if Dimitri's recollection of her as kids is any indication.  She has a few things going for her:

1. She seems to have an overall better constitution than Lysithea.
2. Lysithea went first.
3. She was probably older when the experiments started on her.

For all we know, her lifespan could be "shorter" - but instead of Lysithea, who's worried about dropping dead prematurely, it could very well mean that Edelgard dies at 65 instead of 70!

Lysithea also has health issues, which could easily be explained by your 3 points, plus the fact her crests are Physical/Magical as opposed to Edelgard's Physical/Physical. It would also make more sense that Lys is more worried about dying young because her constitution is so obviously weak compared to Edelgard's. Two people can have short life expectancies, but if one is clearly frail while the other won't have too many issues until a decade down the road, they're going to have vastly different mentalities and lifestyles.

[Crysta]

8 hours ago, Ivan Tridelan said:

Edelgard also implies shortened lifespan with how much she's rushing to get her plans done as opposed to being a bit more cautious and methodical.

Unless Edelgard says she needs to unleash her plans immediately because she doesn't have much time left, I'm not so easily convinced that was the reason for the rush. I think there's more evidence suggesting she's doing it because she wants Rhea out of power as soon as possible. At no point does she actually imply that she's rushing things because she'll die young.

Not sure why it matters which crests she gets if being experimented on period and getting two crests is what shortens your lifespan. Being a "pure mage type" doesn't mean you're less healthy so much as it means that you simply don't lift weights or something.

8 hours ago, Ivan Tridelan said:

Edelgard's personality isn't inclined towards complaining anyways, and her need to appear strong at all times only further reduces the likelihood of her mentioning a shortened life span.

She doesn't need to mention it. It would still affect her in some way much like the night terrors do, unless it's really not that severe. Lysithea outright faints in her supports lol.

Regardless, I think there is some merit to the theory that Lysithea was the imperfect prototype and Edelgard really is the perfect creation the Slitherers were aiming for, with none of the drawbacks that plague the former. Including the shortened lifespan.

EDIT: That said, unless there's another interview that outright confirms she does or doesn't have a shortened lifespan, the argument probably isn't going to get anywhere. I just don't think it's the 100% solid fact Edelgard stans think it is.

Edited March 24, 2020 by Crysta

[Darkmoon6789]

1 hour ago, Crysta said:

Unless Edelgard says she needs to unleash her plans immediately because she doesn't have much time left, I'm not so easily convinced that was the reason for the rush. I think there's more evidence suggesting she's doing it because she wants Rhea out of power as soon as possible. At no point does she actually imply that she's rushing things because she'll die young.

Not sure why it matters which crests she gets if being experimented on period and getting two crests is what shortens your lifespan. Being a "pure mage type" doesn't mean you're less healthy so much as it means that you simply don't lift weights or something.

She doesn't need to mention it. It would still affect her in some way much like the night terrors do, unless it's really not that severe. Lysithea outright faints in her supports lol.

Regardless, I think there is some merit to the theory that Lysithea was the imperfect prototype and Edelgard really is the perfect creation the Slitherers were aiming for, with none of the drawbacks that plague the former. Including the shortened lifespan.

EDIT: That said, unless there's another interview that outright confirms she does or doesn't have a shortened lifespan, the argument probably isn't going to get anywhere. I just don't think it's the 100% solid fact Edelgard stans think it is.

Her ending with Lysithea seems to imply it. But she definatly seems healthier than Lysithea. The crest of flames also seem to have regenerative properties. 

It is hard to know as Edelgard is usually very closed off as a person and doesn't talk about her troubles with most people

[Ivan Tridelan]

14 hours ago, Crysta said:

Unless Edelgard says she needs to unleash her plans immediately because she doesn't have much time left, I'm not so easily convinced that was the reason for the rush. I think there's more evidence suggesting she's doing it because she wants Rhea out of power as soon as possible. At no point does she actually imply that she's rushing things because she'll die young.

Not sure why it matters which crests she gets if being experimented on period and getting two crests is what shortens your lifespan. Being a "pure mage type" doesn't mean you're less healthy so much as it means that you simply don't lift weights or something.

She doesn't need to mention it. It would still affect her in some way much like the night terrors do, unless it's really not that severe. Lysithea outright faints in her supports lol.

Regardless, I think there is some merit to the theory that Lysithea was the imperfect prototype and Edelgard really is the perfect creation the Slitherers were aiming for, with none of the drawbacks that plague the former. Including the shortened lifespan.

EDIT: That said, unless there's another interview that outright confirms she does or doesn't have a shortened lifespan, the argument probably isn't going to get anywhere. I just don't think it's the 100% solid fact Edelgard stans think it is.

From what I understand, the problem with two crests is the strain it puts on the body, something I'm fairly certain either Hanneman or Lindhart mentions in a support conversation. This would be a problem for Edelgard as well, even if she has none of the health issues Lysithea obviously does (which goes with the idea that Lys was the prototype that allowed the "improved/perfected" version that is Edelgard).

Edelgard/Lysithea ending: "With careful analysis of ancient techniques, they discovered ways to recover the years of life that had been stolen from them."

Like I mentioned previously, having shorter lifespan doesn't necessarily mean you'll have health issues NOW.

The Crest of Flames probably plays a part as well. Granted the only people we know with it besides Edelgard are Byleth and Nemesis, but given that it's a Crest taken from the Goddess' own blood, it's probably a lot stronger than the other crests, strengthening the body. Though that's unproven and more headcanon/fanon than anything else.

[Crysta]

I don't think Hanneman or Linhardt are considering or anticipating mole man science.

She lives long in Manuela's ending, presumably without mole man healing techniques, so I'm not sure how much stock to give character-reliant endings.

If she has a Crest that strengthens the body, that presumably also helps her live healthier and longer and kind of goes against the argument that it's a significant issue? Are we simultaneously arguing that she is unhealthy and has limited time but she's also so strong and healthy due to her Crest that we're not going to see how these ailments plague her in the story?

[LSWolf]

Crest of Seiros not prolong life? Jeralt is over 100 years old.

Edited March 26, 2020 by LSWolf

[vanguard333]

2 hours ago, LSWolf said:

Crest of Seiros not prolong life? Jeralt is over 100 years old.

That has to do with him receiving his Crest directly from Rhea and not inheriting it. 1st-Generation Crest Bearers can live for hundreds of years, while those who inherit a Crest only live a slightly-above-normal human lifespan. 

[Ivan Tridelan]

1 hour ago, vanguard333 said:

That has to do with him receiving his Crest directly from Rhea and not inheriting it. 1st-Generation Crest Bearers can live for hundreds of years, while those who inherit a Crest only live a slightly-above-normal human lifespan. 

Incidentally, this is a point that makes me wonder how receiving a Crest that presumably came from preserved Nemesis or Sothis blood might affect Edelgard's lifespan. Either the blood is too strong and overwhelms her body, leading to it breaking down (due to it being forced upon her instead of willingly given like with Rhea -> Jeralt), or it might counteract the strain of two crests and prolong her life. Huh...

Regardless, the discussion is largely pointless since Edelgard has no intentions of living until a quiet retirement lol. She intends to overturn society, build a new one and then turn it over to a worthy successor or die trying.

By the way, does the 1st generation Crest lifespan extension apply to ALL crests or just the saintly ones? Because if you consider the vast difference between a willing donation like Rhea -> Jeralt and the Heroes' crests which were created through Dark Magic and Agarthian tech, it makes me wonder. Especially since it should be noted only the Heroes' relics corrupt non-crest bearers, whereas the Saints' relics can be used by anyone. While both crest types come from Nabatean blood, one is pure and one is defiled by magic and technology.

[vanguard333]

9 minutes ago, Ivan Tridelan said:

By the way, does the 1st generation Crest lifespan extension apply to ALL crests or just the saintly ones? Because if you consider the vast difference between a willing donation like Rhea -> Jeralt and the Heroes' crests which were created through Dark Magic and Agarthian tech, it makes me wonder. Especially since it should be noted only the Heroes' relics corrupt non-crest bearers, whereas the Saints' relics can be used by anyone. While both crest types come from Nabatean blood, one is pure and one is defiled by magic and technology.

I'm pretty sure it applies to all Crests, since the war against Nemesis went on for over 100 years. 

Saint's Relics and Hero's Relics are very different. Hero's Relics were made from the bones of dragons, as well as their Crest Stones. It's the Crest Stones in the Relic that turn a person into a monster if they don't bear a Crest. Whereas, Saint's Relics can be safely used by anyone as they're just metal, technology and magic.

I thought that the Hero's Crests were made from drinking the blood of the dragons Nemesis killed?

[omegaxis1]

3 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

I'm pretty sure it applies to all Crests, since the war against Nemesis went on for over 100 years. 

66 years.

[vanguard333]

14 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

66 years.

Thanks. I could've sworn that I heard 100 from someone. Maybe it was an exaggeration, like often happens in real life. 

[omegaxis1]

6 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

Thanks. I could've sworn that I heard 100 from someone. Maybe it was an exaggeration, like often happens in real life. 

From what I recall, they mention more that the war either lasted for more than half a century, or almost a century. 

[vanguard333]

Just now, omegaxis1 said:

From what I recall, they mention more that the war either lasted for more than half a century, or almost a century. 

Ah; that could be it. 

Anyway, what about my main point about how Nemesis and the Elites must've also gotten the long lifespan? Is that correct?

Also, we should probably get back on topic.