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What would have happened if the Flame Emperor never went on the offensive?

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1 minute ago, Eurydice said:

That's true. That would've been clever. Though it would've been OOC for Rhea, maybe ? As she's always a bit on edge and well, weird. 

Oh; it definitely would be out-of-character. I was just clarifying what makes their swift judgement and execution horrific; that they were just pawns that didn't know what they were doing. 

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33 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

Yes, but their shocked statements made it clear that they were unwitting pawns; unwitting pawns that could've been more useful alive for information. 

Yeah that was definitely a "hey wait maybe we should actually talk to them first" moment and Rhea and crew was having none of it lol

If you give the Church even the slightest justification to bring down the axe, I get the feeling they'd jump on it. But they still seem to need the justification.

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13 minutes ago, Crysta said:

Yeah that was definitely a "hey wait maybe we should actually talk to them first" moment and Rhea and crew was having none of it lol

If you give the Church even the slightest justification to bring down the axe, I get the feeling they'd jump on it. But they still seem to need the justification.

Honestly i imagined it as a combination of Rhea being quick to put the axe down and her just being sick of their shit, since this is far from the first time the western church has made power plays or tried to kill her.

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2 minutes ago, Axel987 said:

Honestly i imagined it as a combination of Rhea being quick to put the axe down and her just being sick of their shit, since this is far from the first time the western church has made power plays or tried to kill her.

Unfortunately it makes actually uprooting them more difficult if you just kill all the useful idiots who have information about their plans.

Edited by Crysta

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Church wouldn't do absolutely anything because the empire already got rid of the church in the empire so they wouldn't they already have no influence there eldeguard is the first emperor attend the officer's academy and five generations 

 

I think you are all overestimating rhea's devotion to the church as long as no one's trying to kill anybody I don't think she really cares there was a king inside of Ferguson that was trying to do the same thing remember and what look what happened to him it wasn't the church that killed him

Edited by jawaunw

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11 hours ago, Jotari said:

If Edelgard never reveals herself to be the Flame Emperor than Dimitri would have no solid reason to believe she is behind the Tragedy of Duscur.

Well I was under the impression of the split being at the sequence in the tomb where she's unmasked... but now that you mention it... that kind of was the point she took the offensive.

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3 hours ago, The Roger The Paladin said:

Well I was under the impression of the split being at the sequence in the tomb where she's unmasked... but now that you mention it... that kind of was the point she took the offensive.

Well yeah, plus Rhea actually does very explicitly say she will raise armies against Edelgard after that reveal, reducing the potential for speculation a good deal. Rhea was mighty pissed about the whole trying to steal the bones of her loved ones and turn them into weapons again thing.

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21 hours ago, Cyan1456 said:

Deliberately attacking students some of which are royals and nobles, raiding a holy tomb, provoking and then secretly backing someone into assassinating a leading religious figure not once, but twice, goes beyond the scope of mostly words. Or do you mean that they only heard that by word of mouth? Then maybe I could kinda see that, but they still attacked them with the intent to kill in addition to trying to steal something worth more than food, all in front of Caspar depending on route.

Imo I think it's just a writing inconsistency which I might let slide since I heard they outsource the support writing IIRC, or was that only for Fates? (Also, other highlight: MERCEDES being the only one to go "They totally deserved that" during the execution. Guess she has some Emile in her. I didn't see that coming and burst out laughing).

I think that was Fates!

And yeah, word of mouth.  A bit harder to believe as opposed to something that happens in front of you!

16 hours ago, Jotari said:

She probably would call them heritics, but I without support from the alliance and the kingdom she wouldn't have the martial power to go to war.

Now, something she could possibly do is attack Enbar as the Immaculate One and spin it as Sothis performing divine intervention. Though whether Rhea alone could win in a surprise attack on Enbarr is rather doubtful.

Hmmmm. . .

If she separates herself from the church, I imagine she'd slowly push out the churches in the Empire.  If she wants the church to make the first move, she can be a little rough with that push.  Perhaps burn down a church that resists.  That will give Rhea the excuse she needs to go on the offensive (after asking Dimitri for help).

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I feel like Rhea would convince Dimitri that Edelgard needs to be dealt with, possibly by taking advantage of his mental instability to get him on her side. Claude would declare neutrality and would have to deal with an internal conflict between those who support him, those who support Rhea, and those who support the Empire. Which probably leads to Rhea and Edelgard bringing the war to the Alliance to try and gain the upper hand. I don't see the Empire falling into chaos given how swiftly Edelgard and Hubert take control and get rid of opponents, which I don't imagine being different in this scenario. If anything I feel there would more unity if Rhea were to go on the offensive against the Empire first.

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1 hour ago, Book Bro said:

I feel like Rhea would convince Dimitri that Edelgard needs to be dealt with, possibly by taking advantage of his mental instability to get him on her side. Claude would declare neutrality and would have to deal with an internal conflict between those who support him, those who support Rhea, and those who support the Empire. Which probably leads to Rhea and Edelgard bringing the war to the Alliance to try and gain the upper hand. I don't see the Empire falling into chaos given how swiftly Edelgard and Hubert take control and get rid of opponents, which I don't imagine being different in this scenario. If anything I feel there would more unity if Rhea were to go on the offensive against the Empire first.

I don't really see that thing happening with Dmitri. He did go full boar in-story but that's only because he had definite proof that Edelgard was linked to the people who caused Duscur. First Rhea would have to know about the Flame Emperor at all and that Edelgard's linked to them, which is unlikely because even after thousands of years she was only able to suspect something like TWSITD but not have any concrete proof of it. She would have to know all of that and have definite evidence to present to Dmitri, and even then I'm thinking he'd confront Edelgard on its validity before starting an entire war. He'll do a lot of stuff when pushed to the edge but pushing him there is the issue.

Remember: He had that evidence in his face in the main game, he wouldn't in this scenario since the Flame Emperor is even less active and they show up a grand total of like 3 times.

That and it wouldn't really matter to Rhea. The Church of Seiros hasn't had any influence in Adrestia in almost 180 years before the start of the game and the Church itself hasn't really done anything except maybe a few bishops saying they're crossing fingers that Edelgard's time in Garreg Mach will smooth over relations. Having another Emperor that doesn't like the Church wouldn't really be much to worry about so long as said Emperor didn't actively try to attack it. So long as no one declares war on the whole continent she's pretty much square.

Totally agree with the Claude thing though. I could also see him using it to his advantage. He's not one for causing large amounts of bloodshed, but he does seem like the person who'd use Almyra to strongarm diplomatic relations in Fodlan in his favor if the Kingdom and Empire were to weaken each other. Not necessarily causing any violence, but looming the threat over their heads enough that it forces them to oblige.

Edited by Cyan1456

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It's implied that Thales had a significant part in manipulating Dimitri in CF, so it can definitely happen. If TWSID wanted to force the conflict - and I think they have plenty of motivation to want to - they can easily interfere and plant evidence. Wanting Dimitri and Edelgard to off each other seems to be one of the schemes they may have overplayed their hand in during the story as is.

Dimitri really doesn't need much shoving. It's not like his initial conclusion that he clung to was even correct lol.

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6 hours ago, Cyan1456 said:

I don't really see that thing happening with Dmitri. He did go full boar in-story but that's only because he had definite proof that Edelgard was linked to the people who caused Duscur. First Rhea would have to know about the Flame Emperor at all and that Edelgard's linked to them, which is unlikely because even after thousands of years she was only able to suspect something like TWSITD but not have any concrete proof of it. She would have to know all of that and have definite evidence to present to Dmitri, and even then I'm thinking he'd confront Edelgard on its validity before starting an entire war. He'll do a lot of stuff when pushed to the edge but pushing him there is the issue.

Remember: He had that evidence in his face in the main game, he wouldn't in this scenario since the Flame Emperor is even less active and they show up a grand total of like 3 times.

That and it wouldn't really matter to Rhea. The Church of Seiros hasn't had any influence in Adrestia in almost 180 years before the start of the game and the Church itself hasn't really done anything except maybe a few bishops saying they're crossing fingers that Edelgard's time in Garreg Mach will smooth over relations. Having another Emperor that doesn't like the Church wouldn't really be much to worry about so long as said Emperor didn't actively try to attack it. So long as no one declares war on the whole continent she's pretty much square.

Totally agree with the Claude thing though. I could also see him using it to his advantage. He's not one for causing large amounts of bloodshed, but he does seem like the person who'd use Almyra to strongarm diplomatic relations in Fodlan in his favor if the Kingdom and Empire were to weaken each other. Not necessarily causing any violence, but looming the threat over their heads enough that it forces them to oblige.

Edelgard wouldn't quite be just another Emperor who doesn't like the church if she goes about making her reforms by overthrowing the entire system of nobility. That could be something radical enough to eventually cause peasent uprisings in the other countries that would cause the Nobles of the Kingdom and Alliance to fear their very way of life is under threat and that an invasion of the empire to restore the system is crucial.

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On 2/24/2020 at 6:10 AM, Jotari said:

Edelgard wouldn't quite be just another Emperor who doesn't like the church if she goes about making her reforms by overthrowing the entire system of nobility. That could be something radical enough to eventually cause peasent uprisings in the other countries that would cause the Nobles of the Kingdom and Alliance to fear their very way of life is under threat and that an invasion of the empire to restore the system is crucial.

Yeah kinda gotta disagree here. Not even going into how much more flawed and corruptible a meritocracy is (and nobility/monarchy isn't exactly non-volatile to begin with), it's gonna take years upon years to fully implement such a radically new system. It's important to note that with the way she's planning on implementing it, the commoners won't really notice that much a difference at first aside from maybe being under new management that may or may not be good depending on if Edelgard's standards really are good markers for leadership.

Remember, even if things change in Constance's support she notes that at first implementation most if not all government officials will come from noble stock because they were already raised with the tools to lead in mind. It's gonna take a while for her to properly implement public education, convince enough people it's important to prioritize having an extra hand around the house for farming/cooking/hunting/ etc., and then finally have the general populace catch up. And that 's WITHOUT any sort of hiccups or unforeseen circumstances along the way.

Regardless of how you feel about her system it's gonna take a LONG LONG time before it makes any ripples in other countries or is fully implemented. Such a radical change doesn't just happen over night or a few months, it takes YEARS.

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The system is flawed and still vulnerable to corruption, but it's better than the previous system. Are you suggesting that we stick with something that clearly isn't working instead of trying to implement something new, even if it takes several years?

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4 hours ago, Cyan1456 said:

Yeah kinda gotta disagree here. Not even going into how much more flawed and corruptible a meritocracy is (and nobility/monarchy isn't exactly non-volatile to begin with), it's gonna take years upon years to fully implement such a radically new system. It's important to note that with the way she's planning on implementing it, the commoners won't really notice that much a difference at first aside from maybe being under new management that may or may not be good depending on if Edelgard's standards really are good markers for leadership.

Remember, even if things change in Constance's support she notes that at first implementation most if not all government officials will come from noble stock because they were already raised with the tools to lead in mind. It's gonna take a while for her to properly implement public education, convince enough people it's important to prioritize having an extra hand around the house for farming/cooking/hunting/ etc., and then finally have the general populace catch up. And that 's WITHOUT any sort of hiccups or unforeseen circumstances along the way.

Regardless of how you feel about her system it's gonna take a LONG LONG time before it makes any ripples in other countries or is fully implemented. Such a radical change doesn't just happen over night or a few months, it takes YEARS.

But with someone as radical as Edelgard on hand, she could possibly force it to happen over night.

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Having only relatively recently played through all the routes (just decided to get a switch/3h in January), the love/high opinion from the majority on Rhea is probably the most surprising aspect for me. The game gives you constant signs that she may not be as pure as she appears, from Jeralt warning you to be careful around her, to finding out later he was explicitly "terrified" of her in his diary, to Seteth pushing for answers about what she really did to save you as a child, Catherine feeling apathetic a bit over her role in Lonato's son's execution/multiple characters reaction to the following executions, specifically Ashe, and most of all the last half of the CF route as a whole, where she is ready to burn down innocent civilians for a strategic advantage, because "we took her mother from her, and she will have her back", when even Catherine starts to question her decisions.

Basically, yeah, I think she would have no qualms about deep ending the Empire with Kingdom/Alliance support in this scenario, as it is obvious, those in Fodlan who do not believe in Seiros are heretics. The only being in Fodlan more unstable than her when things didn't go her way was Dimtri in his early 20's going through psychosis over the tragedy that happened in front of his eyes as a child, but even he pulls it together by the end of AM.

Edited by Relytive

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11 minutes ago, Relytive said:

Having only relatively recently played through all the routes (just decided to get a switch/3h in January), the love/high opinion from the majority of Rhea is probably the most surprising aspect for me. The game gives you constant signs that she may not be as pure as she appears, from Jeralt warning you to be careful around her, to finding out later he was explicitly "terrified" of her in his diary, to Seteth pushing for answers about what she really did to save you as a child, Catherine feeling apathetic a bit over her role in Lonato's son's execution/multiple characters reaction to the following executions, specifically Ashe, and most of all the last half of the CF route as a whole, where she is ready to burn down innocent civilians for a strategic advantage, because "we took her mother from her, and she will have her back", when even Catherine starts to question her decisions.

Basically, yeah, I think she would have no qualms about deep ending the Empire with Kingdom/Alliance support in this scenario, as it is obvious, those in Fodlan who do not believe in Seiros are heretics. The only being in Fodlan more unstable than her when things didn't go her way was Dimtri in his early 20's going through psychosis over the tragedy that happened in front of his eyes as a child, but even he pulls it together by the end of AM.

Rhea is the embodiment of the saintly, motherly form of authoritarianism that people find much easier to accept and sometimes even prefer/gravitate towards because it makes them feel safe.

And since she's in direct conflict with Edelgard and people are fond of dichotomies even if they don't really exist, people tend to overlook all the glaring signs that something is clearly wrong because Edelgard bad. Or the reverse Rhea Bad, but that's less common as far as I've read.

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6 hours ago, Relytive said:

Having only relatively recently played through all the routes (just decided to get a switch/3h in January), the love/high opinion from the majority on Rhea is probably the most surprising aspect for me. The game gives you constant signs that she may not be as pure as she appears, from Jeralt warning you to be careful around her, to finding out later he was explicitly "terrified" of her in his diary, to Seteth pushing for answers about what she really did to save you as a child, Catherine feeling apathetic a bit over her role in Lonato's son's execution/multiple characters reaction to the following executions, specifically Ashe, and most of all the last half of the CF route as a whole, where she is ready to burn down innocent civilians for a strategic advantage, because "we took her mother from her, and she will have her back", when even Catherine starts to question her decisions.

Basically, yeah, I think she would have no qualms about deep ending the Empire with Kingdom/Alliance support in this scenario, as it is obvious, those in Fodlan who do not believe in Seiros are heretics. The only being in Fodlan more unstable than her when things didn't go her way was Dimtri in his early 20's going through psychosis over the tragedy that happened in front of his eyes as a child, but even he pulls it together by the end of AM.

Even with the perspective that Rhea would definitely attack, her ability to muster the Kingdom, and especially the Alliance seems rather doubtful.

One thing one would also need to consider in this situation is that, if the point of divergence is just before the Holy Tomb, we still have Enlightened One Byleth, which means things could actually go in a completely out of the box direction in which Rhea actually orders Byleth to deal with the situation while she takes a step back, ready to retire.

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Would she even need to muster them? Her own forces are considerable enough to convince Edelgard to seek the Slitherers aid against them.

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3 hours ago, Jotari said:

But with someone as radical as Edelgard on hand, she could possibly force it to happen over night.

Any change that radical happening so fast is gonna break a lot of bones. Again, first of all most commoners wouldn't even notice the difference because as it's been stated in her support with Constance, a majority of the government officials she'll start off with will most likely already been nobles by birth since public education wouldn't have been instated yet. Next, she can't just pick some random schmoes to be in positions of authority since, again, public education hadn't been established yet so it's unlikely they'd be qualified, lowering the pool of people she can choose. She has to first properly integrate public education which could take quite a few years and even more for more people to live up to whatever she sets her standards for for a person fit to rule. That's not a change you can force, it's something the common folk bring about themselves.

5 hours ago, Crysta said:

The system is flawed and still vulnerable to corruption, but it's better than the previous system. Are you suggesting that we stick with something that clearly isn't working instead of trying to implement something new, even if it takes several years?

I'm saying Jotari's assertions that her system would have such an affect so quickly are improbable. The Kingdom and Alliance wouldn't feel any pushback from the commonfolk because that's assuming that Edelgard can instantly install her system at its fullest capacity and the Claude nor Dmitri wouldn't have made any reforms by then. It doesn't really matter how good or bad her system is, though I'd like to point out that meritocracies have been widely considered to be a terrible political system and flat out a form of social darwinism.

It sounds captivating, but in actual execution it's anything but.

9 hours ago, Relytive said:

Having only relatively recently played through all the routes (just decided to get a switch/3h in January), the love/high opinion from the majority on Rhea is probably the most surprising aspect for me. The game gives you constant signs that she may not be as pure as she appears, from Jeralt warning you to be careful around her, to finding out later he was explicitly "terrified" of her in his diary, to Seteth pushing for answers about what she really did to save you as a child, Catherine feeling apathetic a bit over her role in Lonato's son's execution/multiple characters reaction to the following executions, specifically Ashe, and most of all the last half of the CF route as a whole, where she is ready to burn down innocent civilians for a strategic advantage, because "we took her mother from her, and she will have her back", when even Catherine starts to question her decisions.

Basically, yeah, I think she would have no qualms about deep ending the Empire with Kingdom/Alliance support in this scenario, as it is obvious, those in Fodlan who do not believe in Seiros are heretics. The only being in Fodlan more unstable than her when things didn't go her way was Dimtri in his early 20's going through psychosis over the tragedy that happened in front of his eyes as a child, but even he pulls it together by the end of AM.

Yeah at the same time Jeralt flat out says they shouldn't have left the monastery at a later point in the game.

And again, this feels like beating a dead horse, but the Western Church tried to kill her and/or her students multiple multiple times. That was easily the third and the only time where she actually did anything about it something the students didn't know. On Catherine, her friend was trying to assassinate a leading religious figure/her boss/ the woman that saved her life which would also have the effect of severely destabilizing Fodlan success or not. Her supports with Ashe, and I think it was Gilbert, suggest she didn't want to do that but by then he'd already made his choice. Seteth says they wouldn't have done anything if they were just trying to solve the issue diplomatically.

She already doesn't care if people don't believe in the Goddess or follow her religion. Cyril straight-up doesn't share her beliefs and he doesn't feel pressured to convert despite being so devoted to her; the only time he does anything remotely religious is to honor Jeralt's death. Shamir is a straight-up atheist and works with her to the same extent as Catherine. Petra worships an entirely different religion and no one seems to really care about converting her, etc.. Seteth himself, who again works closely with Rhea, says that they wouldn't care about a difference of beliefs even in their own religion so long as they don't resort to violence. 

As people have pointed out, nothing would happen because Adrestia has been seperated from the Church for over 180 years before the game even started and Rhea did absolutely nothing. I've stated this earlier to but it doesn't even look like she has good control over her own Church

As a last point CF pushes Rhea to her absolute limits. Not saying any of that stuff is good, but it isn't a good way of judging her in a stable state of mind. she's PTSD'ing HARD, and it would be disingenous to say that's how she'd react normally. Imagine: The dude who had a hand in slaughtering your entire race and family came back and the person you view as your amnesiac mother suddenly sided with him. That's essentially how she saw it.

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1 hour ago, Cyan1456 said:

As people have pointed out, nothing would happen because Adrestia has been seperated from the Church for over 180 years before the game even started and Rhea did absolutely nothing. I've stated this earlier to but it doesn't even look like she has good control over her own Church

 

While I agree with your theory that when Edelgard didnt attack, Rhea would probably do nothing in return and the arguments that that the relations between the empire and the church were frosty at best for years I never found the actually time frame. Where do these 180 years come from?

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41 minutes ago, Nihilem said:

While I agree with your theory that when Edelgard didnt attack, Rhea would probably do nothing in return and the arguments that that the relations between the empire and the church were frosty at best for years I never found the actually time frame. Where do these 180 years come from?

According to the wiki: 

approx. 1065

The Southern Church, based in Enbarr, leads a massive insurrection throughout the Adrestian Empire which is put down. The Emperor exiles the bishop who led the uprising and replaces the Church with the Ministry of Religion under House Varley.

Sorry I miscounted it's closer to a hundred-twenty years but my point still stands. In the timeline the game starts in 1185. The most of anything we here about the Central Church doing something about it is from a few priests saying they hope relations will get better once Edelgard enrolls in Garreg Mach.

And before anyone brings it up it's unlikely Rhea was involved in this mainly because she's still rather fond of Wilhelm's family: he was the first human she ever trusted and even when she goes mad in CF she still struggles with the idea that she'll have to kill his descendant in her fight dialogue with Edelgard this happens even if you kill Seteth and Flayne. It's another thing that goes against the "Rhea would attack the Empire if the flame emperor stayed inactive" bit.

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Thank you for the link. Unfortunately the wiki does not say where the number comes from (probably somewhere from silver snow I suppose) but thats something neither of us can change. Regardless, the information that the church in the empire is controlled by the "ministry of religion" under Count Varley (Bernadettas Father) was completly new to me. But that makes the condition "Edelgards splits from the church" seamingly absurd as the empire controlls the church in adrestia. She could abolish the Ministry and forbid the Faith inside the empire  - which would certainly lead to a hard respone from the other churches, but i do not think that this was what this is about .... and we have no evidence that Edelgard ever planned that, regardless of routes ....

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11 minutes ago, Nihilem said:

Thank you for the link. Unfortunately the wiki does not say where the number comes from (probably somewhere from silver snow I suppose) but thats something neither of us can change. Regardless, the information that the church in the empire is controlled by the "ministry of religion" under Count Varley (Bernadettas Father) was completly new to me. But that makes the condition "Edelgards splits from the church" seamingly absurd as the empire controlls the church in adrestia. She could abolish the Ministry and forbid the Faith inside the empire  - which would certainly lead to a hard respone from the other churches, but i do not think that this was what this is about .... and we have no evidence that Edelgard ever planned that, regardless of routes ....

Yeah I was not privy to this particular information when I made the thread either. It's kind of a major blow to the legitimacy of Edelgard's actions as the supposed dragon pope she's rebelling against has basically no power in her country to begin with.

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38 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Yeah I was not privy to this particular information when I made the thread either. It's kind of a major blow to the legitimacy of Edelgard's actions as the supposed dragon pope she's rebelling against has basically no power in her country to begin with.

 

'No power'. Yup. That's why the fact the archbishop is supposed to serve as witness for each new emperor crowning is a big deal, and even more when Edelgard ditches this for her own crowning.  Clearly there is absolutely no influence of the pope of the religion and her military order within half the continent just because of one incident more than one century ago. Absolutely nobody would believe or could imagine that things could have evolved past that low point, or that the Central Church could ever try to renew these relationships themselves.

 

It was the relationships between the two groups knowing a rise in tension at that moment, there was 120 years for the crisis to cool off. And it did so enough her father was attending Garreg Mach. Also, by that logic, once the Western Church is purged, there should be no relationship between Faerghus and the Church.

 

1 hour ago, Cyan1456 said:

 

And before anyone brings it up it's unlikely Rhea was involved in this mainly because she's still rather fond of Wilhelm's family: he was the first human she ever trusted and even when she goes mad in CF she still struggles with the idea that she'll have to kill his descendant in her fight dialogue with Edelgard this happens even if you kill Seteth and Flayne. It's another thing that goes against the "Rhea would attack the Empire if the flame emperor stayed inactive" bit.

 

It's more of a 'So Disappointed/Disgusted' moment that I was reading here. Given the sort of little speech she offers when Edelgard escapes the Holy Tomb, I doubt she is taking someone toppling the social order her Church is litteraly bound to the hip with lightly. Heck, no pope ever did so, even for far smaller incidents, like Cathars, Hussites, Reformation (before Luther's little thesis went viral)... Because these sorts of things were direct challenges of their legitimacy to be head of the faith for Christiandom. Rhea can hardly tolerrates such things herself, or her whole edifice tumbles down into nothingness.

 

And for 'No change can be sudden'... French Revolution. Within two, three years, the nobility had lost its privileges, many had emigrated to search for support from foreign monarchies, and the social order had taken a pretty serious hit, which led to reactions from other Europeans kingdoms not keen on the idea that their peasants could ever take notes about what happened, and a Church which didn't like the ditching of kings she's supposed to sacre.

Edited by Hardric62

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