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Drop off point for stats?

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What would you all consider the drop off point for base stats when it comes to each of the following categories

Calvary
Flyer
Infantry
Armor

Dancer (If they have any)
Nuker
Tank
Dragonstone units
Support units

Staff Units
Mages
 

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I am not sure what you are trying to ask. Are you asking about when there is no point or much benefit to push a stat higher?

There are only three types of units with dump stats that you actually want to be low: slow Enemy Phase tanks, most Counter-Vantage units, and most Player Phase units. Everyone else wants all stats as high as possible, although how they prioritize each stat is different. For example, a Def tank does not need high Res, but having high Res would still be beneficial, so at no point would there be a thing as too much Res for a Def tank.

Slow tanks want low Spd, the lower the better, but they want every other stat as high as possible; the low Spd is for goading the foe into doubling the unit, allowing the unit to counter with a stronger Special. All other types of tanks want all stats as high as possible. There is also the 30-40 Spd range that tanks should avoid, as that Spd range is not fast enough to avoid doubles and it is not slow enough to reliably trigger a strong Special; for Aether Raids, I recommend avoiding the Spd range between 30-50 for more reliability.

Most Counter-Vantage units and most Player Phase units want to dump HP or bulk in general. It makes getting into Desperation, Vantage, and Wings of Mercy range easier. Low HP is particularly valuable, and -HP is an extemely valuable Flaw that is worth preserving; I recommed skipping the first few merges if those merges will take the unit to 41 HP or higher. Most Player Phase units want to have 40 HP or less so level 1 Bolt Traps can still take them into Desperation range. 36 HP and 32 HP are two other HP thresholds to maintain below if possible, as it allows the unit with Fury 4 and Fury 3 respectively to enter into Wings of Mercy range after one round of combat after stepping on a Bolt Trap first. Kronya is the only exception so far for Counter-Vantage units, but you cannot customize her nature nor inherit her Weapon anyways so it does not matter. For Player Phase, Lewyn and Summer Returns Laegjarn want high bulk in general since their Desperation works differently.

Galeforcers are another type of Player Phase units that might not want super high stats, but it is a bit more complicated. All of them want as much Spd as possible, but having high Spd is not mandatory for some of them because those ones have guaranteed follow-up, but at no point do they not want more Spd. Not all of them want other stats to be as high as possible though. The vast majority do not want super high Atk since they often need to double enemies to trigger Galeforce, so killing things in one shot is generally bad. Some Galeforcers want to dump their bulk to act as Wings of Mercy beacons for allies or to activate their own Desperation, while Galeforcers who do not need to be Wings of Mercy beacons and are not reliant on Desperation want to maintain high bulk.

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19 minutes ago, XRay said:

I am not sure what you are trying to ask. Are you asking about when there is no point or much benefit to push a stat higher?

There are only three types of units with dump stats that you actually want to be low: slow Enemy Phase tanks, most Counter-Vantage units, and most Player Phase units. Everyone else wants all stats as high as possible, although how they prioritize each stat is different. For example, a Def tank does not need high Res, but having high Res would still be beneficial, so at no point would there be a thing as too much Res for a Def tank.

Slow tanks want low Spd, the lower the better, but they want every other stat as high as possible; the low Spd is for goading the foe into doubling the unit, allowing the unit to counter with a stronger Special. All other types of tanks want all stats as high as possible. There is also the 30-40 Spd range that tanks should avoid, as that Spd range is not fast enough to avoid doubles and it is not slow enough to reliably trigger a strong Special; for Aether Raids, I recommend avoiding the Spd range between 30-50 for more reliability.

Most Counter-Vantage units and most Player Phase units want to dump HP or bulk in general. It makes getting into Desperation, Vantage, and Wings of Mercy range easier. Low HP is particularly valuable, and -HP is an extemely valuable Flaw that is worth preserving; I recommed skipping the first few merges if those merges will take the unit to 41 HP or higher. Most Player Phase units want to have 40 HP or less so level 1 Bolt Traps can still take them into Desperation range. 36 HP and 32 HP are two other HP thresholds to maintain below if possible, as it allows the unit with Fury 4 and Fury 3 respectively to enter into Wings of Mercy range after one round of combat after stepping on a Bolt Trap first. Kronya is the only exception so far for Counter-Vantage units, but you cannot customize her nature nor inherit her Weapon anyways so it does not matter. For Player Phase, Lewyn and Summer Returns Laegjarn want high bulk in general since their Desperation works differently.

Galeforcers are another type of Player Phase units that might not want super high stats, but it is a bit more complicated. All of them want as much Spd as possible, but having high Spd is not mandatory for some of them because those ones have guaranteed follow-up, but at no point do they not want more Spd. Not all of them want other stats to be as high as possible though. The vast majority do not want super high Atk since they often need to double enemies to trigger Galeforce, so killing things in one shot is generally bad. Some Galeforcers want to dump their bulk to act as Wings of Mercy beacons for allies or to activate their own Desperation, while Galeforcers who do not need to be Wings of Mercy beacons and are not reliant on Desperation want to maintain high bulk.

I meant what number counting down is where the stat starts to be classified as bad depending on the different roles

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2 hours ago, AvatarofDiscord said:

I meant what number counting down is where the stat starts to be classified as bad depending on the different roles

That is entirely dependend on the class of the unit and the exclusiv skills/weapons they are running and their role/build/meta of the game. There is no rule of thumb.
For example i consider a Ploy/sabotage unit needs a res stat of 40 for PVE content, but for PVP like AR or AA they need to have a stat of ~50 with passives.
For Dancers i prefer SPD so they dont get doubled easy (or HP if its a DNC for a AR Defense Infantry pulse Team)

I also consider Hrids low SPD very good, beause of his unique weapon that gives him follow ups/prevents them as soon as the enemy is debuffed. Those points went into RES.

Another example staves:
Pure offensive Stave units: SPD followed by Atk due to Razzle Dazzle
supporting STave unit: high Bulk on both ends and high Res to apply Sabotage/ploys etc.
Fjorm and Loki: as much HP as i can get followed by SPD and Attack.

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2 hours ago, AvatarofDiscord said:

I meant what number counting down is where the stat starts to be classified as bad depending on the different roles

Okay, I think I get what you mean now. The stats are dependent on their role rather than what movement type or weapon type they are.

These are the benchmarks I use. I will list more later when I have more time.

Player Phase units with decent Spd and are not Galeforcers:

40 HP or less. 36 HP or less if using Fury 4 to get into Wings of Mercy range. 32 or less if using Fury 3 to get into Wings of Mercy range. These are ideal, but not mandatory. This does not apply to units like Lewyn and SR!Laegjarn since their Desperation have an HP minimum rather than the traditional HP maximum.

Combined Atk/Spd base stat total of 65 or more not factoring inheritable skills nor merges, but add on Atk/Spd+1 for Book I and Book II infantry units to account for their access to extra Flowers, add another Atk/Spd+2 if they are Resplendent Heroes, and you may want to consider factoring in any additional amount due to their exclusive Weapon or exclusive Weapon Refinement. Nino has 33/36 spread and she has access to extra Flowers, so I count her as having 71 offensive stat spread, and if you count her Spd Refinement, push it up to 73. Lyn has 28/37, access to extra Flowers, and access to Resplendent stats, so I count her as having 71 too; 77 is also appropriate in my opinion since she has her B slot free for Lull Atk/Spd.

Def/Res do not matter very much.

Player Phase slow Brave units:

Neutral base Atk of 35 or higher, not factoring in inheritable skills nor merges, but add on Atk/Spd+1 for Book I and Book II infantry units to account for their access to extra Flowers, add another Atk/Spd+2 if they are Resplendent Heroes, and factor in any additional stats as necessary due to exclusive Weapons or exclusive Weapon Refinement. Cordelia for example has 35 neutral Atk, but she also has access to Resplendent stats and her Refined Weapon has 6 additional Mt over regular Brave Weapons, so I would count her as having 43 Atk. Cherche has 37 neutral Atk, but her Atk Refined Weapon has 4 additional Mt over regular Brave Weapons, so I would count her as having 41 Atk.

Super tanks:

Super tanks should have a minimum of 70/65/50-53/50/50. I recommend 50 Spd as the absolute bare minimum a super tank needs to hit, but I strongly recommend setting the bare minimum to be 53 or higher.

If you do not need to tank Alm: Saint King and the like, you can aim for 70/65/<30/60/60 instead, and allocate the freed up stats from Spd towards Def/Res.

Counter-Vantage:

Unit should hit at least 85 Atk.

Technically anyone can do it since you can just run 2 AMH!Hectors, and that would essentially give any Counter-Vantage unit the equivalent of 40 Atk. However, I strongly recommend the unit achieving 85 Atk without the help of pre battle damage since Healing Towers (D) are a thing.

Edited by XRay

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I can't crunch numbers in much detail, especially when the meta is always changing. So, my more simplistic way of looking at it is like this: 1. If you can, look at the general opinion of people who look at stats. Things like "Wow, that character is fast!" or "Wow, that character is bulky!" 2. Look at the stats they're talking about. 3. Notice patterns in what people call good or bad. It seems to me like 40 in a stat (besides atk, which seems to be somewhere near 50) makes it "good." 35-40 def/res makes someone "bulky." If you have 20 or less in def/res, they won't be able to take much of a hit. Cringe in fear if they also have low speed, because then they'll get doubled on top of that.

Please note that I'm talking about unmerged 5* units.

Anyway, it's probably not that helpful, but that's the basics of my take on how to tell whether stats are good or bad. Once you figure that out, you can look at their personal skills/weapons/refines and reevaluate what stats you want as you get an idea for what sort of role you want the unit to play. Valentine's Ike is a speedy armor, which is unusual and might be fun to build. So, maybe give him a teammate who can help him traverse the map (like someone with reposition and/or a refresher) to make up for the low movement and give him things like vantage and a steady posture seal (to boost his naturally high speed and make him more durable during EP.) (I find that, particularly when using infantry/armor units, it's easier to fight from EP since it's a lot easier to get into position to bait and counter than it is to charge up to a foe's space and smash. Plus, then you don't have all their friends dog-piling you on EP.)

So, that's kind of how I build units. Again, probably not very helpful, but maybe it's not a bad method if you just want to explore your favorites.

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5 hours ago, Mercakete said:

Cringe in fear if they also have low speed, because then they'll get doubled on top of that.

Low Spd is actually good. Middling Spd is bad.

Low Spd means you can reliably activate a strong Special. Middling Spd means you are too fast and unreliable enough to run a stronger Special and also too slow to avoid doubles.

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2 hours ago, XRay said:

Low Spd is actually good. Middling Spd is bad.

Low Spd means you can reliably activate a strong Special. Middling Spd means you are too fast and unreliable enough to run a stronger Special and also too slow to avoid doubles.

I meant in the event of being attacked on EP and having low defensive stats. Good tip, though! Thanks!

Edited by Mercakete

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13 hours ago, Mercakete said:

I can't crunch numbers in much detail, especially when the meta is always changing. So, my more simplistic way of looking at it is like this: 1. If you can, look at the general opinion of people who look at stats. Things like "Wow, that character is fast!" or "Wow, that character is bulky!" 2. Look at the stats they're talking about. 3. Notice patterns in what people call good or bad. It seems to me like 40 in a stat (besides atk, which seems to be somewhere near 50) makes it "good." 35-40 def/res makes someone "bulky." If you have 20 or less in def/res, they won't be able to take much of a hit. Cringe in fear if they also have low speed, because then they'll get doubled on top of that.

Please note that I'm talking about unmerged 5* units.

Anyway, it's probably not that helpful, but that's the basics of my take on how to tell whether stats are good or bad. Once you figure that out, you can look at their personal skills/weapons/refines and reevaluate what stats you want as you get an idea for what sort of role you want the unit to play. Valentine's Ike is a speedy armor, which is unusual and might be fun to build. So, maybe give him a teammate who can help him traverse the map (like someone with reposition and/or a refresher) to make up for the low movement and give him things like vantage and a steady posture seal (to boost his naturally high speed and make him more durable during EP.) (I find that, particularly when using infantry/armor units, it's easier to fight from EP since it's a lot easier to get into position to bait and counter than it is to charge up to a foe's space and smash. Plus, then you don't have all their friends dog-piling you on EP.)

So, that's kind of how I build units. Again, probably not very helpful, but maybe it's not a bad method if you just want to explore your favorites.

What is considered bad speed as of now?

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3 minutes ago, AvatarofDiscord said:

What is considered bad speed as of now?

Well, pretty sure 20's is low/bad, 40's is high, and 30's is somewhere in between. That's the impression I get.

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27 minutes ago, AvatarofDiscord said:

What is considered bad speed as of now?

 

23 minutes ago, Mercakete said:

Well, pretty sure 20's is low/bad, 40's is high, and 30's is somewhere in between. That's the impression I get.

20s is slow, 30s is middling, and 50s is fast.

40s is either middling or fast depending on the mode. It is definitely middling for Aether Raids, but it is decently fast for Arena.

The quality of Spd is not a linear relationship that directly correlates to how high Spd is. It is more like a bell curve or parabola.

Spd that is below 20 and above 55 is generally considered great.

Spd that is around 20-25 and 50-55 is pretty good.

Spd that is around 25-30 and 45-50 is fair.

Spd that is between 30-40 is bad for Arena, and 30-45 is bad for Aether Raids.

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2 hours ago, XRay said:

 

20s is slow, 30s is middling, and 50s is fast.

40s is either middling or fast depending on the mode. It is definitely middling for Aether Raids, but it is decently fast for Arena.

The quality of Spd is not a linear relationship that directly correlates to how high Spd is. It is more like a bell curve or parabola.

Spd that is below 20 and above 55 is generally considered great.

Spd that is around 20-25 and 50-55 is pretty good.

Spd that is around 25-30 and 45-50 is fair.

Spd that is between 30-40 is bad for Arena, and 30-45 is bad for Aether Raids.

I mean base wise, not including other skills into the factor

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14 minutes ago, AvatarofDiscord said:

I mean base wise, not including other skills into the factor

Spd is pretty malleable and easy to adjust, so it makes more sense to speak of it in terms of the final value the unit can achieve in my opinion.

If a unit has 30 base neutral Spd, which is toeing the line into slow poke range, you can still take the unit to 42 Spd with Life and Death and Brazen Atk/Spd, and Hone Spd will bump that over to 46 Spd, which is okay. And that is not factoring in nature, merges, Flowers, Weapon Refinement, or more premium A skills, which can easily take the unit to over 50 Spd, although it might not be cheap to do so depending on the unit.

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1 minute ago, XRay said:

Spd is pretty malleable and easy to adjust, so it makes more sense to speak of it in terms of the final value the unit can achieve in my opinion.

If a unit has 30 base neutral Spd, which is toeing the line into slow poke range, you can still take the unit to 42 Spd with Life and Death and Brazen Atk/Spd, and Hone Spd will bump that over to 46 Spd, which is okay. And that is not factoring in nature, merges, Flowers, Weapon Refinement, or more premium A skills, which can easily take the unit to over 50 Spd, although it might not be cheap to do so depending on the unit.

So rule of thumb is "Below 32 speed is where a unit can start to be considered slow"?

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24 minutes ago, AvatarofDiscord said:

So rule of thumb is "Below 32 speed is where a unit can start to be considered slow"?

Anything below 40 and above 30 is the bad kind of slow. Below 30 is where you start getting the good kind of slow.

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27 minutes ago, AvatarofDiscord said:

I meant base speed bad not overall bad

As said by others before, Base speed is a bad metric to look at. 

Final speed is way more important, since speed changes by lots of things:

- What role is the unit fulfilling and in what game mode. 

- Is the unit easily accessible, thus having acces to merges, or is it a 5 star locked seasonal that you'll probably get maybe 2 copies of max.

- What movement type is it, and what kind of buffs can it get. This also depends on the mode. (In game content usually can get away with fortifies and hones. AR relies on mostly drives etc.

- What support is the unit getting (Corrin, Peony etc. Sanaki for Altina maybe)

- Does the unit benefit from the +10 spd when battling in MS.

Etc etc.

 

So if you see a unit you like, want to use, think about how the unit will end up and look if the base stats accommodate the stat thresholds you want to reach when fully built.

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3 hours ago, Vicious Sal said:

As said by others before, Base speed is a bad metric to look at. 

Final speed is way more important, since speed changes by lots of things:

- What role is the unit fulfilling and in what game mode. 

- Is the unit easily accessible, thus having acces to merges, or is it a 5 star locked seasonal that you'll probably get maybe 2 copies of max.

- What movement type is it, and what kind of buffs can it get. This also depends on the mode. (In game content usually can get away with fortifies and hones. AR relies on mostly drives etc.

- What support is the unit getting (Corrin, Peony etc. Sanaki for Altina maybe)

- Does the unit benefit from the +10 spd when battling in MS.

Etc etc.

 

So if you see a unit you like, want to use, think about how the unit will end up and look if the base stats accommodate the stat thresholds you want to reach when fully built.

I get where he's coming from, though. When you look at a 5* lvl40 unit without skills, you see what the unit is working with, and then add the other stuff after that. For example, as I recall, Summer Innes has around 40 base speed. I refer to him as having 40 (41? I don't remember the exact number) speed. So, I consider him a fast unit and may put him into positions where that strength is accented, such as giving him skills and such which augment his speed. Even if the final speed is the thing that makes a difference in actual combat, some of us can't skip steps like that, so we need to look at each component (such as base speed) individually and take things 1 step at a time to eventually reach the final composition.

@AvatarofDiscord

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5 hours ago, AvatarofDiscord said:

I meant base speed bad not overall bad

I guess maybe the 25-30 base Spd range? I would not call it bad though, but it is probably the most difficult Spd range to work with. The unit is reliably slow enough to trigger a strong Special in most cases, but it is not as slow as others, so it is not the most reliable out there. You can still make the unit go fast, but it may be expensive depending on the unit.

Berkut can reach 56 Spd if you really want to use him as a super tank against Alm: Saint King for example, and he only has 22 base Spd (22 + 4 merge + 1 Flower + 2 Summoner + 3 Refine + 3 Lull + 4 Swift Stance + 5 M!Corrin + 3 BH!Lucina + 9 Three Drive Spd). Not the best way to counter SK!Alm and will not be able to counter all types of SK!Alm, but should be doable against a decent portion of them. If a slow poke like him can do it, then units in the 25-30 base Spd range can do fast or slow Spd strategies too.

Edited by XRay

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4 hours ago, Mercakete said:

I get where he's coming from, though. When you look at a 5* lvl40 unit without skills, you see what the unit is working with, and then add the other stuff after that. For example, as I recall, Summer Innes has around 40 base speed. I refer to him as having 40 (41? I don't remember the exact number) speed. So, I consider him a fast unit and may put him into positions where that strength is accented, such as giving him skills and such which augment his speed. Even if the final speed is the thing that makes a difference in actual combat, some of us can't skip steps like that, so we need to look at each component (such as base speed) individually and take things 1 step at a time to eventually reach the final composition.

@AvatarofDiscord

Thank you

 

3 hours ago, XRay said:

I guess maybe the 25-30 base Spd range? I would not call it bad though, but it is probably the most difficult Spd range to work with. The unit is reliably slow enough to trigger a strong Special in most cases, but it is not as slow as others, so it is not the most reliable out there. You can still make the unit go fast, but it may be expensive depending on the unit.

Berkut can reach 56 Spd if you really want to use him as a super tank against Alm: Saint King for example, and he only has 22 base Spd (22 + 4 merge + 1 Flower + 2 Summoner + 3 Refine + 3 Lull + 4 Swift Stance + 5 M!Corrin + 3 BH!Lucina + 9 Three Drive Spd). Not the best way to counter SK!Alm and will not be able to counter all types of SK!Alm, but should be doable against a decent portion of them. If a slow poke like him can do it, then units in the 25-30 base Spd range can do fast or slow Spd strategies too.

So 25-30 is slow, got it

What would 31-34 be considered

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1 hour ago, AvatarofDiscord said:

Thank you

 

So 25-30 is slow, got it

What would 31-34 be considered

30-35 is around middling. 35+ is fast.

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12 minutes ago, XRay said:

30-35 is around middling. 35+ is fast.

Is there any difference for Atk, Def, and Res

What would be considered bad Atk, Def, and Res and where would those stats start to become middling

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1 hour ago, AvatarofDiscord said:

Is there any difference for Atk, Def, and Res

What would be considered bad Atk, Def, and Res and where would those stats start to become middling

30 Atk or less is low. 30-35 is middling. 35+ is high. While most units and builds want Atk as high as possible, keep in mind that not everyone wants high Atk. Some Galeforcers generally want either low Atk or middling Atk depending on their Weapon; Galeforce Caeda is perfectly fine with low Atk due to her Weapon being effective against armor and cavalry, so having high Atk would definitely be a bad thing in this scenario.

25 or less Def/Res is low. 25-35 Def/Res is around the middle. 35+ is high. Even more so than Atk, high Def/Res is not automatically a good thing. As a predominantly Player Phase player, high bulk for me is much more often a huge hindrance than something that is useful. Most Player Phase units want low bulk or medium bulk, as high bulk gets in the way of getting into Desperation range.

40 HP and lower is considered low. 40-45 HP is about the middle. 45+ HP is high. And as I have mentioned previously, what HP a unit wants is highly dependent on their role. For Player Phase units, you want HP as low as possible, ideally under 40. For Enemy Phase, you want it to be as high as possible. For Infantry Pulse teams, you sometimes want a unit to reach a specific HP range than trying to aim for as low or as high as possible. Whether a certain value of HP is good or bad is highly dependent on the purpose of the unit.

Edited by XRay

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