I wished more Fire Emblem parts featured enemies with warp and rescue staves

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

I cannot think of that any other Fire Emblem game than Thracia 776 has enemies which have and use staves like restore or warp.

Chapter 21x is a very good example that enemy staff users can be very threatening to the player.

Chapter 24 is also really interesting since the Loptian Sages do even a staff combo like using barrier on a unit with the berserk staff. 

Outside of FE5 I only remember something similar in 3-11 in FE10 where an enemy has a rescue staff and also uses it on a injured ally.

I really wished more games had staff combos because it gives the chapter a bigher challange.

The player is forced to make good use of the silence and sleep staff to prevent enemy staff combos.

Edited February 25, 2020 by Falcom Knight

[Fabulously Olivier]

I'm of the opposite mind and I'm glad that instances of these staves have decreased.

 

Especially berserk. Fuck berserk.

[starburst]

Does Conquest count? Granted, most enemy staves were used on the player and not on enemies themselves, but it was still fun to plan around.

Staff Savant and Inevitable End have joined the party. 🥳

[Flere210]

I think it would work very well whitin 3H system because you have a consistent amount of Restore and Silence uses. In Thracia or genealogy it was often a matter of pushing beyond Res Thresholds.

[Imuabicus der Fertige]

Maybe that´s not what you asked for, but in Conquest we have a bunch Entrap staves (chapter 12, 14 & 2x 26, 27?) that have a meh to good chance in resulting in dead units? Also a few Hex staves I think (chapter 11, 20, 2x 24, 2x 26, Endgame?). Then there´s Freeze & Silence (these are w/e imo) and Enfeeble. Which is a problem with IE.

 

Random ass enemies being warped into my army sounds about as cool as ambush spawns.

Why not both?

[Samurai Navarre]

Pretty sure Binding Blade and Blazing Sword also had enemies with Berserk Staves. And Path of Radiance had enemies with Sleep Staves.

[Eltosian Kadath]

Enemy staff uses became a lot less interesting after Thracia, but I think a bigger part of it is that the player's way of dealing with them became less interesting. In Thracia you had various staff, specifically Silence, Sleep, Berserk, Thief, or even Warp (maybe even Rewarp or Rescue) that could be used to deal with enemy staff users (and the choice of staff was a meaningful one as based on the situation some would work better or have better additional effects than others), but in latter games movement and status staves became too rare to use in most strategy (especially with the prominence of seize and boss kill objectives that can be easily warp skipped), plus the newer system of how staff accuracy works (especially using resistance, most staff users highest stat, in staff avoid) made using them on enemy staff users untenable. That just left waiting out the staff uses, restore staves, and rushing in combined with one of the previous tactics as the main forms of counter-play they share. Now the change in staff accuracy and limited range made staff dodging, and controlling who tanks the staff hits as the main thing that replaced them, which are far more passive forms of counter-play, and it can sometimes require the incredibly esoteric knowledge of how the AI staff targets are determined to best use. With these changes its probably a good thing most movement staves haven't returned, plus even when they returned in Radiant Dawn (at least Rescue, and Rewarp) they weren't very well programmed (I seem to remembering Lekain working fine, but I've seen the rescue staff users move adjacent to their target to make the rescue staff literally useless, plus Sephiram and Izuka (although Izuka less so) can sometimes rewarp to incredibly dumb positions).

As for Conquest, it still has a lot of the same issues of other games (in someways more so due to the lack of Restore staves), its just has very well designed maps that can make their enemy staff users the highlight of maps.

[Hawkwing]

I was fine with the "traps" that Conquest provided through its usage of staves. You can spot them if you pay attention, and they created an interesting challenge of how to work around the staves or even exploit them. I rarely, if ever, used the same staves myself, but then again I barely use limited usage status items in the first place, regardless of game. I also don't care that several Fire Emblem games lack special staves for the enemies, so while I believe it can lead to interesting levels, I'm fine with their absence.

The hexing rod can go to hell, though. Or at least, not have the effect last the entire map. Having to deal with lowered HP for a few turns can lead to some interesting conundrums, but having to deal with it the entire rest of the level is bullcrap. The berserk staff from what I've heard usually just results in the crazed unit attacking your units most of the time anyway, so it didn't really do much but make enemy staff users more frustrating to deal with.

Warp however... I can see it working with good map design and maybe as a gimmicky way to transport enemy reinforcements and units from one side of the map to the other without relying on fortresses, but I can also see it leading to bullcrap levels where you don't have an easy way to predict where the warped enemy will land or where the best strategy is to turtle and wait until the staff breaks. Witches were bearable only because their schizophrenic AI often had them make dumb decisions and the tended to be fragile, but that was more of a band-aid solution than anything else. Enemy warp users could work but only with thought and care put into the map design and enemy placement.

[starburst]

54 minutes ago, Hawkwing said:

I was fine with the "traps" that Conquest provided through its usage of staves. You can spot them if you pay attention, and they created an interesting challenge of how to work around the staves or even exploit them. I rarely, if ever, used the same staves myself [...]

You really did not use Freeze, Rescue or Entrap?! I know that I play with a reduced party, but they are life savers. Literal life savers.

In Chapter 23 alone (I just played it), Freeze is key to deal with a Sniper out of your units range at the beginning, and to assault Pickles & Co. with a party of ten, and to stop any units on the roof which you might not have been able to kill during the phase.

In the same Chapter 23 but on Lunatic, Entrap is key to access the roof through the eastern door, which grants a better defensive position.

In Chapter 25, Entrap or Freeze are key on the Spy Ninjas and Spy Dolls. Specially with a party of ten and no royals.

 

54 minutes ago, Hawkwing said:

The hexing rod can go to hell, though. Or at least, not have the effect last the entire map. Having to deal with lowered HP for a few turns can lead to some interesting conundrums, but having to deal with it the entire rest of the level is bullcrap.

I am fine with it, but its accuracy should definitely be reduced.

Say, in Chapter 24, Strategist Elise with a +Resistance bonus from a teammate has enough Luck to win the lottery and enough Resistance to deal with Orlando Magic, Magic Johnson and the Wizards… and yet Azama always has a 30-35 % chance of hexing her. Go figure.
It would not bother me as much with a larger party, wherein I could let weaklings take the hexes. But with a reduced party in a map whose main theme is being surrounded, it feels cheap.

[Interdimensional Observer]

I'd like to say yes... but I'm not truly sure I want them. 

As was pointed out before, after FE5, where counter-staffing status staffers/warpers is overpowered fun, the way you dealt with them became monotonous. Just make sure your staffers pack a Restore, nothing more, not real strategy. Keeping your units close to staffers helped, and keeping your staffers next to each other in case of Silence. In a sense, a status staff was just a nonfatal siege tome, making it weaker overall, save for the absence of ranged Restore making lone wolf missions untenable.

 

Whilst the Hexing Rod was diabolical for being permanent, I did think that Fates was working towards more palatable status staffs. 1-turn (or maybe 2 would work, just no more 5-turn stuff) duration is not so potent, but they could still be effective debilitation deterrents, and it made placing them more commonly in the player's hands more feasible.

[Hawkwing]

2 minutes ago, starburst said:

You really did not use Freeze, Rescue or Entrap?! I know that I play with a reduced party, but they are life savers. Literal life savers.

In Chapter 23 alone (I just played it), Freeze is key to deal with a Sniper out of your units range at the beginning, and to assault Pickles & Co. with a party of ten, and to stop any units on the roof which you might not have been able to kill during the phase.

In the same Chapter 23 but on Lunatic, Entrap is key to access the roof through the eastern door, which grants a better defensive position.

In Chapter 25, Entrap or Freeze are key on the Spy Ninjas and Spy Dolls. Specially with a party of ten and no royals.

Nope! I got by largely through strategic tanking. And being thankful for casual mode. And not taking the earlier entrance after getting my first TPK in Fire Emblem during Chapter 23.

Joking aside, as I mentioned earlier, I usually end up not using limited items in most games, especially if they're status effects. I just tend to find it more fun to overcome challenges without having to rely on them. That, and I was playing Conquest blind, so I didn't know how many staves of each type I would get, which lead to hoarding.

4 minutes ago, starburst said:

I am fine with it, but its accuracy should definitely be reduced.

I only got around that one by Silas dodging the first few attempts and Benny having enough HP that it being chopped in half. My main issue with the hexing rod is that there is no way to get rid of the effect. Having to deal with reduced HP for a few turns can lead to some interesting situations, such as whether or not you should risk a unit tanking or having to be extra careful with a fragile unit. Yet having to deal with it the entire rest of the map is as you put cheap.

[BoldKnock]

There is a chapter in Tear Ring Saga that has an enemy saint use the warp staff (I believe its chapter 26)

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

7 hours ago, Samurai Navarre said:

Pretty sure Binding Blade and Blazing Sword also had enemies with Berserk Staves. And Path of Radiance had enemies with Sleep Staves.

My OP was not clear enough.

I was referring to enemies with warp and rescue staves.

Fixed it.

 

And true, Fates had some staves which worked in the game.

 

I have to take into account that enemies in FE5 have really poor stats, and since staves can miss, they could be much more threatening than they are. Therefore their infinite range is too broken honestly.

If their range was mag/2, it would have been more balanced.

Thracia 776 is meant to be warpskipped, so it's fine here.

Seeing warp and rescue on enemies in there GBA series and Tellius where enemies have serious stats would work very well, I imagine.

[Imuabicus der Fertige]

Not to dump on your train of thought but,

2 hours ago, Falcom Knight said:

Seeing warp and rescue on enemies in there GBA series and Tellius where enemies have serious stats would work very well, I imagine.

TBH that has me kind of, absolutely terrified. Warp, at the very least used by the Player is mostly "I wanna get this over with as quickly as possible". Whereas used by the enemy it would probably be "How can i end this persons entire career?" Well stated enemies warped across the map sounds like a recipe for dead squishies.

I´m also not sure how Rescue would be implemented for enemies without it ending up meaningless. Most of the time injured enemies will just be Physic´ed or Fortify´ed up no? It would make sense assuming a dangerous enemy that you have surrounded (let´s say a miniboss on map -> Petra on GD Edelgard map?), in order to save him, but that also sounds like a royal pain in the bum and would most likely just end up in the player setting up appropriately to 1 turn said enemy (not that anyone would let Petra live intentionally I imagine). Unless it´s a scripted event.

Though I suppose it comes down to enemy AI, more than anything else.

 

There´s some imaginable scenarios with map objectives, though.

As in "Kill Boss!", but you defeated him last chapter so now that he´s alone he´s running away from you in direction of his (2nd?) army and if he gets far enough he gets rescued inside the main army, triggering said army to become aggressive.

Or some guy has story progression relevant loot (I think FE 12 has that, with differing endings?) and the only way out for him is a path that´s 100% out of reach for you, but he needs to be warped up there, allowing you to either kill Lootguy or Warpguy, but Lootguy has escort and Warpguy is in a fortress/enemy camp?

 

That´s all I could come up with, lol.

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

9 hours ago, Imuabicus said:

Not to dump on your train of thought but,

TBH that has me kind of, absolutely terrified. Warp, at the very least used by the Player is mostly "I wanna get this over with as quickly as possible". Whereas used by the enemy it would probably be "How can i end this persons entire career?" Well stated enemies warped across the map sounds like a recipe for dead squishies.

I´m also not sure how Rescue would be implemented for enemies without it ending up meaningless. Most of the time injured enemies will just be Physic´ed or Fortify´ed up no? It would make sense assuming a dangerous enemy that you have surrounded (let´s say a miniboss on map -> Petra on GD Edelgard map?), in order to save him, but that also sounds like a royal pain in the bum and would most likely just end up in the player setting up appropriately to 1 turn said enemy (not that anyone would let Petra live intentionally I imagine). Unless it´s a scripted event.

Though I suppose it comes down to enemy AI, more than anything else.

The rescue staff mainly exists to warp skip a map.

Whereas there are not many practical situations the rescue staff is used as lifesaver.

FE6 has some situations the rescue staff serves for defend like Douglas or keeping the thiefs away of long range magic and ballistas.

 

Rescue staves are defintitely harder to deal with in indoor maps because it's harder to reach the warp user.

The mentioned map against Petra would work actually pretty well, if an enemy near Edelgard had a rescue staff.

I don't even think it's easy to kill her in the first turn since her evasion is extremly high and there are other enemies aside of her which have to be killed.

[Zapp Branniglenn]

With how often fire emblem villains have inexplicably been escaping after defeat, I imagine enemies use rescue staves all the time...

Enemies with warp staves does sound of like a nightmare, but if the player is warned about the threat and there's no variance in which enemy gets warped, the player can plan around it. For instance, if the warp target is next to the warp holder, and the target happens to be an assassin, the player can move their armor knight up to bait. It can also serve as a narrative way in which the enemy is actively ambushing the player in certain rooms. Map designers only get staircases in the middle of a map to have ambush spawns come out of. And that can be limited. In Fates/Three Houses, the spawns are sometimes tied to the player crossing an invisible threshold, but usually reinforcements arrive on a certain turn which may prove too early or too late to really impact the player based on how they're doing in the map.

[Alastor15243]

On 2/24/2020 at 1:14 PM, Imuabicus said:

Random ass enemies being warped into my army sounds about as cool as ambush spawns.

True, but REwarping enemies can't warp and attack on the same turn. I loved that part of Thracia, when the enemy could go wherever it wanted and you had to make sure you could react to anything they do with one turn to spare. I'd love to see that again.

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

Quote

Random ass enemies being warped into my army sounds about as cool as ambush spawns.

I consider it as an elegant way of ambush spawns since it happens only at times.

[starburst]

2 hours ago, Falcom Knight said:

I consider it as an elegant way of ambush spawns since it happens only at times.

I am all in for it. Say, a villain threatens you at the beginning of the chapter with teleporting powerful enemies by Turn 15 or so. This would discourage turtling, or make you ponder over reaching the treasures at the other side of the map. It can be interesting.

[Imuabicus der Fertige]

@Falcom Knight, @Alastor15243

I should have probably clarified beforehand, but I don´t know any of the FE games before Shadow Dragon (also never played FE 12), so whenever someone says WARP ENEMIES my mind defaults to SD Warp and a red light starts blinking. And since I am most acquainted with Conquest, that´s the enemy quality I assume. Combine these two things and it´s not just a red light blinking anymore.

The whole warping enemies could however give way to a class that can manipulate staves or something. Like Rally Skills that affect staff range, prolong staff effects etc., or that prevent staves’ effects in an AOE effect fashion.

[Lightcosmo]

I think the idea is good if executed the right way. I really wouldn't want to deal with enemies warping an enemy with an FE4 holy weapon in on me only to get units that don't stand a chance, killed. I suppose Thracia's system of rewarp is best, since it actually costs them a turn to act.

[whase]

How about this;

Warp staff, range magic/2, choose an ally in range warp it to another position in range, the warped unit can no longer act.

Sounds to me like a fun staff to distribute among both allies and enemies.

(range based on a late-game magic stat of 30-35)

[PPPPPPP270]

There were the warp witches in Echoes and they had the most confusing AI. They for some reason attack archers and get themselves killed. Sometimes they don't teleport but it's probably so you don't just get jumped suddenly by a dozen of them. 

Now enemy staff users have always been extremely obnoxious. I think the worst instances is Genesis in FE7 and the fortify bishops in the last few levels of FE12, and most enemy staff users in Conquest. As for Fire Emblem 5, I found enemy status staffs to be complete jokes because the game gives you so many silence staffs and insane deployment slots that you can just silence them and they have 0 answers to silence.

 

[X-Naut]

Warp and Rescue on enemies would have to be done very carefully considering how dangerous it is. With a competent AI and too much range I think I'd rather fight ambush spawns. If the enemy is going to have Warp, it might be best to have the spell gray out its target.

[Imuabicus der Fertige]

On 2/25/2020 at 8:55 PM, Alastor15243 said:

True, but REwarping enemies can't warp and attack on the same turn. I loved that part of Thracia, when the enemy could go wherever it wanted and you had to make sure you could react to anything they do with one turn to spare. I'd love to see that again.

Keep in mind I have no Thracia exp and I´m basing my stuff off Conquest since it´s the game I´m most familiar with, but bear with me a sec.

REwarping sounds cool and all but what does it really add? Another enemy to kill on PP and that´s it. Granted it could be a way to threaten side objectives and the like, but aside from that… it just sounds like they are warping lambs to the slaughter. Unless they are warping in massive amounts of enemies (think Armour Knights in SD Prologue) but I think that falls in the same category as elegant ambush spawns². Though it might make for a good map event or something.