How would you like form changers to be implemented?

[Emperor Hardin]

2 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

Well, as I said, I think context is key: what sort of mechanics already in FE 8 would be most relevant? For example, the Laguz being split into three main tribes (beasts, birds, dragons) reflects the anima magic being similarly divided in three: fire, wind, and thunder, with each Laguz tribe being weak to one of the three. This gives clear weaknesses and trade-offs. 

I haven't actually played the GBA FE games; my first FE game was Path of Radiance. 

You know they should've kept the fire, thunder, weaknesses but expand and refine them.

1. Fire hurts beasts including horses/cavalry units.
2. Thunder hurts dragons including wyverns, but they are still weak to bows.
3. Wind hurts birds and pegasus riding classes.

[mangasdeouf]

15 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

Well, as I said, I think context is key: what sort of mechanics already in FE 8 would be most relevant? For example, the Laguz being split into three main tribes (beasts, birds, dragons) reflects the anima magic being similarly divided in three: fire, wind, and thunder, with each Laguz tribe being weak to one of the three. This gives clear weaknesses and trade-offs. 

I haven't actually played the GBA FE games; my first FE game was Path of Radiance. 

Currently I'm trying to hack transformation though I don't know if they'll work (I tried yesterday without transformation anim and the game crashed the moment I it launched, double click on the file and black screen forever). I don't have an anim for the transformation itself, only starting class and transformed class anims so it might end up crashing or not playing anim...we'll see.

The concept here is:

journeyman: swords/axes D, access fiendcleaver: transforms into an Elder Bael (spider) (+4 str, +4 def, +1 con, -2 res, -5 luck, negates crit, 11 MT 80 hit), effective against cavalry and demon king

                                                                 shadowkiller: transforms into a Gwillgy (cerberus) (-2 str, +4 skl, +4 spd, +10 lck, -1 con, +1 mov, 6 MT 90 hit, brave effect), effective against infantry and demon king

recruit: lances/bows D, access bright lance: transforms into a dragonzombie (+5 def, +5 res, negates crit, 10 MT, 75 hit, negates defenses, 7 speed penalty from con), effective against dragons and demons (+Bael) and demon king

                                                        beacon bow: transforms into a Maelduin (centaur) (+4 str, +5 skl, +5 luck, 9 MT 85 hit, bow), effective against armors and skeltons (since their sprites have armor and promoted melee skeltons have shields even on their map sprite) and demon king

disciple: anima/dark D, access alcalibur: transforms into a gorgon (+4 spd, -2 def, +4 res, +5 luck, 9 MT 85 hit 15 crit, monster magic without attribute), effective against monsters (legendary weapon effectiveness).

Edit: animations for my shapeshifters don't work (not even the normal weapon animations) but at least there's no crash. It's usable without animation. Maybe some day it will be possible to do it completely.

Each class has 2 weapons/magic types, 2 monster weapons (1 for magic) and an unique effectiveness set (with differences in mov, weight/con, bonuses/penalties and power/hit rate/crit rate for magic and range, bow effective against armors is a first). Both physical classes share the same bases (30 HP, 4 in every stat, 0 magic, 11 con) and the magical class has a similar spread but is squishier (25 HP, 4 everywhere, 0 str, 9 con). I used a different locks in order to ensure no one can use someone else's weapon (based on class). They're unbreakable but cost 4k gold each. There are 2 journeymen and 2 recruits, only 1 disciple. The classes are prepromotes but with thief exp bonus they should level up quite fast and their bases are those of prepromotes with perfectly viable growths (fast ones cap skill and speed at 22/23 except the magic one who stays at 20 but his weapon gives 4 speed, and 24 speed double about everyhting in this game). Caps are 22 everywhere and 23 speed. Every foot unit has either shove or smite, and mounted units have canto. Manakete has 35 HP 4 everything as bases and is also a promoted class with thief exp bonus, dragonstone hits res but is nerfed, so are dragonzombie's blow (-5 def bonus) and Demonlight (-5 res bonus).

If it crashes I'll simply do it without transformation with only the monster weapons so that I don't need to use them in human form, it would probably remove crashing from having too many animations and from any bug in the transformation patch (and also from not having a real transformation animation outside dragonzombie who transitions through Manakete's transformation animation into dragonzombie).

Eirika is Celica undercover with "Micaiah done better" stat spread (more usable). I think it should easily replace anything Ephraim has over Eirika (Ephraim is more Ike-like with improved t2 caps to match RD's redemptor caps but with 20s instead of 30s), I'll polish it now and playtest it so I can put a link to the mod in my signature or whatever.

Edited March 1, 2020 by mangasdeouf
New information to communicate on the content of this post

[Heir of Dragons and Beasts]

Manaketes - Make them similar to how they were in FE12 or TRS but give them the whole dragon weakness along with a weakness to dark magic(I've never seen dark magic as a weakness to a certain class.) Also if their stone or bracelet in TRS's case breaks have it being able to only be repaired by a Manakete sage or something. Give them side weapons as well

Shifters - Give them relevance to the plot like PoR and RD, make them similar to the Laguz where they turn into their respective animal forms but with a stone or charm but if are weakened beyond 40% HP they shift back into their humanoid forms. Also give them a side weapon so they aren't just kicking and scratching like little wusses.

For instance in a W.W I plan to turn into a fan game when I learn how to create one:

Manaketes - Can transform into powerful dragons some with the help of stones; they can also use Swords, Axes, Lances, Daggers, Anima Magic, and Light Magic(characters get 2 weapon types each.)

Swan Maidens/Tengu - Can transform into their bird forms with the help of stones; Swan Maidens can use wind magic on the side. While Tengu use Gauntlets.

Tanuki - Can transform into sleek raccoons with the help of their stones or charms; Tanuki vitalize their swift speed and use swords.

Onikuma - Can transform into Bears with stones or charms; uses their great strength to wield axes.

Demons- Can transform into Demons if they have the Demonic Form skill or Demon Stone; uses their ability of stealth to wield daggers.

 

 

[mangasdeouf]

22 hours ago, PeonyofLeosa Dreamworld said:

Manaketes - Make them similar to how they were in FE12 or TRS but give them the whole dragon weakness along with a weakness to dark magic(I've never seen dark magic as a weakness to a certain class.) Also if their stone or bracelet in TRS's case breaks have it being able to only be repaired by a Manakete sage or something. Give them side weapons as well

Shifters - Give them relevance to the plot like PoR and RD, make them similar to the Laguz where they turn into their respective animal forms but with a stone or charm but if are weakened beyond 40% HP they shift back into their humanoid forms. Also give them a side weapon so they aren't just kicking and scratching like little wusses.

For instance in a W.W I plan to turn into a fan game when I learn how to create one:

Manaketes - Can transform into powerful dragons some with the help of stones; they can also use Swords, Axes, Lances, Daggers, Anima Magic, and Light Magic(characters get 2 weapon types each.)

Swan Maidens/Tengu - Can transform into their bird forms with the help of stones; Swan Maidens can use wind magic on the side. While Tengu use Gauntlets.

Tanuki - Can transform into sleek raccoons with the help of their stones or charms; Tanuki vitalize their swift speed and use swords.

Onikuma - Can transform into Bears with stones or charms; uses their great strength to wield axes.

Demons- Can transform into Demons if they have the Demonic Form skill or Demon Stone; uses their ability of stealth to wield daggers.

 

 

That's interesting, don't hesitate to MP me if you manage to find a way to do it, I'm totally on with you (though like I wrote earlier I'm completely garbage at coding, since I never learnt it at all, I just use modding tools like Nightmare and FEBuilder). I would love to help you with gameplay, map design and story (well, at least discuss of it in a brainstorming way with anyone included in the project).

I loved Tellius games in their way to make a large scale war, with political aspects and Fantasy aspects intricated, fused with each other. It could also be interesting to put in some 2020s problems (ecology? gender equalty? homophobia?) alongside some "racial" (we French don't name it race because humanity is a species, and skin colour doesn't define different races, only different results in the adaptation of the outer appearance to the climate conditions, like Africa has darker skins since the sun is hard while Scandinavian countries and Canada/Russia have white skins because they don't see the sun for long periods or their winter is so cold they don't go outside much etc.,  while you can say a race of monkeys is different from another, humans all share mostly the same properties except their traditions and climate tolerance).

But anyway it's your game and you're the one to choose ^^

[Harb1ng3r]

I know that the horse has been beaten a whole lot, but I think that the Laguz are not good in RD, and that they are much better implemented in PoR. While I love the idea of a gauge, they are so heavily crippled in RD by the fact that they lose time in transformed state simply for getting a javelin tossed at them.

What's really unfortunate for most Laguz in RD is the fact that there are so many bad maps for them. If there was a warp staff, some non-royal Laguz units could be phenomenal bosskillers. If there were fewer rout maps, they wouldn't be nearly as bad in part four. They cannot contribute at all on those maps, as they just get straight-up torched when they have to revert.

Wildheart does not solve the problem, as they are still only able to kill one enemy per turn at best on these later maps due to lack of 1-2 range. They will never be able to safely lock down and slaughter an entire quadrant of the map like Ike, Titania, Haar, Jill, and even Mia can with their strong 1-2 range and solid-to-great bulk. Mordecai having great physical bulk doesn't matter as long as other units have enough physical bulk to survive, which the aforementioned beorc can do. Halfshift completely removes Mordecai's capacity to even remove a single enemy, because even if you feed him multiple pairs of speedwings, he isn't doubling and one-rounding. Let's assume that you're heavily babying him and he winds up at a very generous 16 untransformed speed, 32 transformed. This looks great! It doubles some things! However, in Wildheart, even at a ridiculous 16 base speed, acquired through gimping every single other unit in the game, he ends up at 24 base speed. He is now doubled by a lot of the enemies in RD lategame that hover around 28 speed, and he fails to double even generals. He fails to pick up one-shots due to the ridiculous bulk of RD enemies; the obscene amount of generals on most maps really hurts units that aim for one-shots. 

I really like Path of Radiance's transformation mechanics, as using demiband only slightly hampers the stat boosts of transformed Laguz units. This lets them function from the word start, and it lets Mordecai, Muarim, and Ranulf do some significant damage. Having some units like Lethe start at full is also really cool, she's actually better than most of your guys in early-midgame. 

I do like the idea of units being able to do stuff while untransformed. However, I feel like this aspect has to be balanced too. In TRS, dragons have low movement and staves have great utility, so there is little reason to use the transformation rings given how good units like Zieg, Raffin, and Schramm Guy (forgot his name) are at combat. 

Ultimately, I like the idea of a meter, but I think that transformation bonuses should be half the untransformed bases or less, untransformed bases of transforming units should be at least in the ballpark of the beorc units, transforming units should not be punished for taking attacks that they cannot counter, transforming unit weapon ranks should be fixed at a high level or fast-growing, and transforming units should have untransformed utility but not utility that makes transforming undesirable.

[mangasdeouf]

7 hours ago, Harb1ng3r said:

I know that the horse has been beaten a whole lot, but I think that the Laguz are not good in RD, and that they are much better implemented in PoR. While I love the idea of a gauge, they are so heavily crippled in RD by the fact that they lose time in transformed state simply for getting a javelin tossed at them.

What's really unfortunate for most Laguz in RD is the fact that there are so many bad maps for them. If there was a warp staff, some non-royal Laguz units could be phenomenal bosskillers. If there were fewer rout maps, they wouldn't be nearly as bad in part four. They cannot contribute at all on those maps, as they just get straight-up torched when they have to revert.

Wildheart does not solve the problem, as they are still only able to kill one enemy per turn at best on these later maps due to lack of 1-2 range. They will never be able to safely lock down and slaughter an entire quadrant of the map like Ike, Titania, Haar, Jill, and even Mia can with their strong 1-2 range and solid-to-great bulk. Mordecai having great physical bulk doesn't matter as long as other units have enough physical bulk to survive, which the aforementioned beorc can do. Halfshift completely removes Mordecai's capacity to even remove a single enemy, because even if you feed him multiple pairs of speedwings, he isn't doubling and one-rounding. Let's assume that you're heavily babying him and he winds up at a very generous 16 untransformed speed, 32 transformed. This looks great! It doubles some things! However, in Wildheart, even at a ridiculous 16 base speed, acquired through gimping every single other unit in the game, he ends up at 24 base speed. He is now doubled by a lot of the enemies in RD lategame that hover around 28 speed, and he fails to double even generals. He fails to pick up one-shots due to the ridiculous bulk of RD enemies; the obscene amount of generals on most maps really hurts units that aim for one-shots. 

I really like Path of Radiance's transformation mechanics, as using demiband only slightly hampers the stat boosts of transformed Laguz units. This lets them function from the word start, and it lets Mordecai, Muarim, and Ranulf do some significant damage. Having some units like Lethe start at full is also really cool, she's actually better than most of your guys in early-midgame. 

I do like the idea of units being able to do stuff while untransformed. However, I feel like this aspect has to be balanced too. In TRS, dragons have low movement and staves have great utility, so there is little reason to use the transformation rings given how good units like Zieg, Raffin, and Schramm Guy (forgot his name) are at combat. 

Ultimately, I like the idea of a meter, but I think that transformation bonuses should be half the untransformed bases or less, untransformed bases of transforming units should be at least in the ballpark of the beorc units, transforming units should not be punished for taking attacks that they cannot counter, transforming unit weapon ranks should be fixed at a high level or fast-growing, and transforming units should have untransformed utility but not utility that makes transforming undesirable.

Mordecai can get doubled by fast ennemies all he wants, he's got enough HP to just take the hits and heal up afterwards. I don't know why people still compare Mordecai to Jill since they're on different teams, have totally different utility (smite/canto, Mordecai can actually rescue nearly every unit in the game in tiger form since he has a massive constitution/aid while Jill can't take the hit to her speed before very late in the game and can't even rescue some mounted units when you get some, probably more in part 4 than anything but still, it's not a boon that con/aid is fucked up in RD, not even made clear how much you need to push/rescue another unit, a real mess Intelligent Systems didn't care to look at, on top of that not many units can rescue Jill because 1) she has more movement than them and 2) she's heavy as hell thanks to riding a dragon, with that her average def for most of the game and her garbage all around HP and mediocre at best res mean she's in danger quite a lot of the time you use her from the first time you get her, hell in the second or 3rd difficulty setting she can even die as an NPC since her AI is stupid and her bases are hot garb).

Or compare Mordy to anyone else (the only units comparable would be the paladins, with more reliable combat stats since they don't shift/unshift but their stats are quite garbage for when you get them/their level and most of them don't even grow into anything useful, coming short 1-3 points of doubling the 9 points weighed down Ashera even as their speed is capped in t3, while paladins have useless movement advantage over infantry since most of the maps after p2 are either indoors or terrain-heavy with some ledges they can't even hop on, effectively leaving them with less movement than infantry on most maps, while like I said Laguz don't suffer any movement penalty in my memory and infantry has better stats and caps than cavalry for almost the whole game, except in p2 since Geoffrey and Kieran have nice bases (nothing to be amazed of, but still nice to use) but sadly Geoffrey only likes a promotion to fix him in the short term since at the end of the day when you recruit the Queen's uncle he instantly surpasses Geoffrey with 0 investment on top of having much more charisma).

I didn't like the facts that PoR Laguz lacked untransformed utility and the fact their good stats were hindered like thieves by the fact they had only 20 levels, 0 promotion bonuses to make up for it and weak weapons that never improved. I think of mix of PoR and RD could be really nice in terms of gameplay as well as actual fun using the units (even though I use Laguz in human form mostly to level them up, it's not funny to look at them with their several sub-20 stats in a game with >40 caps, especially in a game where every Laguz has bad growths while most Beorcs cap several useful stats like str/skl/def (Aran), str/spd/skl/lck (Mia?), str/skl/spd/def (Mia & Edward), and many other stat spreads, some being shitty (Astrid) while others are awesome, reliable and carry you through nearly the whole game (Haar)). If shifters have a level 20 cap, I expect them to have GBA Manakete level growths to make up for it.

[Shadow Mir]

16 hours ago, mangasdeouf said:

Mordecai can get doubled by fast ennemies all he wants, he's got enough HP to just take the hits and heal up afterwards. I don't know why people still compare Mordecai to Jill since they're on different teams, have totally different utility (smite/canto, Mordecai can actually rescue nearly every unit in the game in tiger form since he has a massive constitution/aid while Jill can't take the hit to her speed before very late in the game and can't even rescue some mounted units when you get some, probably more in part 4 than anything but still, it's not a boon that con/aid is fucked up in RD, not even made clear how much you need to push/rescue another unit, a real mess Intelligent Systems didn't care to look at, on top of that not many units can rescue Jill because 1) she has more movement than them and 2) she's heavy as hell thanks to riding a dragon, with that her average def for most of the game and her garbage all around HP and mediocre at best res mean she's in danger quite a lot of the time you use her from the first time you get her, hell in the second or 3rd difficulty setting she can even die as an NPC since her AI is stupid and her bases are hot garb).

Bold: You must not have bothered with the tutorials then - they do go over how much is needed to shove or rescue another unit.

The rest: I know I'm doing the verbal equivalent of dropping a mountain of anvils on your head at this point, but since you STILL don't get it, it's necessary, I guess. *sigh* Mordecai's only a good tank while he's transformed. The moment he reverts, he's done for. Also, Jill is better for rescuing because she can move after rescuing a unit; Savior exists, and if Fiona's not being used (a very reasonable assumption), then she's the best candidate for it. Why would I need to rescue Jill anyway? That's REALLY nitpicky, seeing as she can reposition after attacking.

16 hours ago, mangasdeouf said:

Or compare Mordy to anyone else (the only units comparable would be the paladins, with more reliable combat stats since they don't shift/unshift but their stats are quite garbage for when you get them/their level and most of them don't even grow into anything useful, coming short 1-3 points of doubling the 9 points weighed down Ashera even as their speed is capped in t3, while paladins have useless movement advantage over infantry since most of the maps after p2 are either indoors or terrain-heavy with some ledges they can't even hop on, effectively leaving them with less movement than infantry on most maps, while like I said Laguz don't suffer any movement penalty in my memory and infantry has better stats and caps than cavalry for almost the whole game, except in p2 since Geoffrey and Kieran have nice bases (nothing to be amazed of, but still nice to use) but sadly Geoffrey only likes a promotion to fix him in the short term since at the end of the day when you recruit the Queen's uncle he instantly surpasses Geoffrey with 0 investment on top of having much more charisma).

Sure, except those comparisons all end very poorly for Mordecai all because he needs to transform first, and the moment he reverts, he's a punching bag that dies VERY easily. Also, what the hell does charisma have to do with anything???

16 hours ago, mangasdeouf said:

I didn't like the facts that PoR Laguz lacked untransformed utility and the fact their good stats were hindered like thieves by the fact they had only 20 levels, 0 promotion bonuses to make up for it and weak weapons that never improved. I think of mix of PoR and RD could be really nice in terms of gameplay as well as actual fun using the units (even though I use Laguz in human form mostly to level them up, it's not funny to look at them with their several sub-20 stats in a game with >40 caps, especially in a game where every Laguz has bad growths while most Beorcs cap several useful stats like str/skl/def (Aran), str/spd/skl/lck (Mia?), str/skl/spd/def (Mia & Edward), and many other stat spreads, some being shitty (Astrid) while others are awesome, reliable and carry you through nearly the whole game (Haar)). If shifters have a level 20 cap, I expect them to have GBA Manakete level growths to make up for it.

They aren't better off in RD, considering that they take too much effort to improve compared to beorc, and the payoff is far from worth it. Radiant Dawn adds insult to injury because a good chunk of maps are routs, with part 4 being especially noteworthy. This makes things even worse for them because their Enemy Phase is compromised by being range locked.

Edited March 25, 2020 by Shadow Mir

[Harb1ng3r]

Ok, whole lot to address here. I think that we agree that some combination of Laguz mechanics would be good, but I still have a bone to pick with some of your points about Mordecai.

I fail to see how stat caps are relevant here, given how Mordecai will never hit his. The cavs and paladins will have higher stats by endgame than Mordecai and be more Tower-ready simply because he will virtually be at his bases due to low exp gain. I also fail to see how Jill's low base speed (with low being nearly twice Mordecai's) is bad but Mordecai's is good. Jill also has the privilege of growing out of her bases, unlike Mordecai, whose pitiful growths make that impossible. Also, you bring up movement. Mordecai has good movement and smite utility, but he also cannot leverage his good movement due to the fact that he cannot attack before turn 2 without being danced, and he cannot attack before turn 3 without burning a valuable Laguz Stone. Also, you seem to be heavily over-representing his bulk. While he looks amazing transformed, he actually gets 3RKO'd by enemies on his join chapter while untransformed, which isn't much better than Jill's 2RKO, especially when factoring in the fact that he is prone to being ambushed by many enemies due to fog of war. Jill also gets to patch her issues with a myriad of useful stat-boosters like a Seraph Robe, Dracoshield, and Energy Drop and become a much stronger and tankier unit. She also faces weaker enemies, uses stronger weapons (forged irons and then forged steels and then Brave Axe), and can boost her overall offense in several chapters with Beastfoe. While this is admittedly a large investment, she can actually use these boosts before you're already halfway done with the map, unlike a Laguz unit. I also think that you're severely downplaying the importance of one-rounding in Part 4, because again, Mordecai cannot eliminate a single enemy per turn, which is awful on rout maps where you face 60+ enemies apiece. 

Is Mordecai the worst unit in the game? Not even close. In a game with Lyre, Meg, Kyza, Astrid, and many other absolute stinkers, Mordecai at least has a few chapters of solid utility and fine combat. He's never the best unit you have, but he has two or three chapters of consistency, assuming that you use a lot of Olivi Grass and Laguz Stones on him. That said, it is important to note that using Mordecai takes resources from other, better Laguz units, like Ranulf and the Hawks.

[Shadow Mir]

On 2/29/2020 at 11:57 AM, vanguard333 said:

For example, if the next FE game builds off of the mechanics in Three Houses (which it probably will), I think it would be interesting to see playable units that use the monster mechanics. The upside would be the sheer raw power they would possess, while the downsides would be that they can't get through narrow paths without reverting to humanoid form, they can't use battalions, and they'd be stunned for one turn if their barriers are broken. It would be an interesting trade-off that would have a lot of gameplay potential. 

I think that would be unrealistic as all get out, in addition to being a nightmare to balance. AOE attacks, barriers, the works sounds more like something I'd expect to see in a MOBA. It also sounds like someting that'd be broken as hell. Add in the part where they are outright unable to cross certain structures, like stairs, and they become impractical, because that means if they're not a flier, 2x2 Monster has to revert and fall behind while everyone else advances. And this is putting aside the fact that I'm not sold on the next game having mechanics from 3H.

Edited March 26, 2020 by Shadow Mir