What makes a good fire emblem chapter?

[soren5]

I've been playing a lot of fire emblem lately and it's gotten me thinking about what makes certain maps more enjoyable than others.

This seems like a subjective topic to me and yet I find a lot of things that most people can agree on (e.g. revelations map design is inferior to conquest, fe8 is too easy ).

What do you think makes a good map? What maps do you think are representative of good map design?

[Fabulously Olivier]

My favorite maps tend to be defense ones. Lots of choke points, ballistae, etc. 

 

 

I really wish Three Houses earnestly attempted something like Elincia's Gambit, because it would be fun/interesting to see how one of these maps plays in a game in which archers are useful. 

[whase]

A map that offers multiple possible approaches is usually a better map. SoV suffers from too many wide open spaces, while other games force you to take all units through one single hallway packed with enemies. Multiple team splitting possibilities usually make a map better. The keyword here is options.

That, and other winning conditions than rout, rout is the worst winning condition in FE. Not saying a rout map can't be good, but other conditions are simply superior.

[Fabulously Olivier]

I do not agree that Rout is the worst victory condition. That's ridiculous. In a franchise historically tied to finite xp and resource gains, rout maps are an excellent means of guaranteeing the player a set amount of resources for that map, and then letting them distribute the xp as they see fit.

 

That said, it can't be the only objective. That makes for a stale gameplay experience. Variety is the spice of life.

[Flere210]

The worst win condition are defeat boss and seize, because they are very easy to abuse if good mobility options(wich sometimes can just be pegasus knights) exist. Those can only be truly good in a game where warp does not exist 

Edited February 27, 2020 by Flere210

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

Defend chapters with side objectives like chapter 14 in FE5, 2-E in FE10 and chapter 10 in Conquest, but also chapters where to deal with staff users like chapter 21x in FE5. 

[whase]

22 minutes ago, Etheus said:

I do not agree that Rout is the worst victory condition. That's ridiculous. In a franchise historically tied to finite xp and resource gains, rout maps are an excellent means of guaranteeing the player a set amount of resources for that map, and then letting them distribute the xp as they see fit.

 

That said, it can't be the only objective. That makes for a stale gameplay experience. Variety is the spice of life.

 

17 minutes ago, Flere210 said:

The worst win condition are defeat boss and seize, because they are very easy to abuse if good mobility options(wich sometimes can just be pegasus knights) exist. Those can only be truly good in a game where warp does not exist 

I respectfully disagree with your opinions that rout is not the worst. I understand where you're coming from,  but personally I find one of the most annoying things when I forget an enemy at the start of the map, and then need to walk my units all the way back to kill this cleric which gives 1 exp. Might be because I play on modes that are too easy for me, but that's just what I enjoy.

I've tried warpskipping, and it only makes other chapters harder, which is how I learned that warpskipping can be a terrible strategy. Even on chapters where you can kill the boss early, it can be strategic not to, which is simply how I like it; choice.

I do agree that variety is best, some rout maps won't make the game worse. Maybe I just played too many FEs where rout is the only objective in the game?

[soren5]

1 hour ago, whase said:

A map that offers multiple possible approaches is usually a better map. SoV suffers from too many wide open spaces, while other games force you to take all units through one single hallway packed with enemies. Multiple team splitting possibilities usually make a map better. The keyword here is options.

 I definitely agree that maps that force you to make meaningful decisions are the most engaging.

 

I also think that maps that some objectives are susceptible to being abused. It is fun when the game demands that you comprise and objectives like "Seize" give the player too much control in my opinion.

[Flere210]

1 hour ago, whase said:

I've tried warpskipping, and it only makes other chapters harder, which is how I learned that warpskipping can be a terrible strategy. Even on chapters where you can kill the boss early, it can be strategic not to, which is simply how I like it; choice.

In a more growth focussed game, sure, in a game that can be beaten while disabling the stat gains on level up? It only make things marginally more difficult.

To make not finish a map ASAP a sensible choice you need something like a magickarp unit that snowball so much it makes you save more turns later. Wich is how an Est should be imo btw 

[eclipse]

34 minutes ago, Flere210 said:

To make not finish a map ASAP a sensible choice you need something like a magickarp unit that snowball so much it makes you save more turns later. Wich is how an Est should be imo btw 

I think you're trying to say something cool, but I can't parse it.  Can you give an example of what you'd like to see?

---

My general preference is Arrive > Rout > Seize >> Defend.  For "Arrive" the thing that comes to mind is the PoR prison map - you can either raise hell and wipe out the guards, or sneak through.  Even dealing with the prisoners is optional.  Rout can be good, as long as the enemy AI doesn't do weird things.  I don't like going to the other side of the map just to wipe out some random grunt that couldn't be bothered to leave his station.  Seize is like an Arrive that necessitates a boss fight, and dealing with gate bonuses sucks (I'm gonna throw Defeat Boss in this bucket, since the difference is whether you end the map, or the game does).  The only Defend map that gave me issues is Conquest 10 - otherwise, it might as well be a "wait X amount of turns" objective, which IMO is boring.

[AnonymousSpeed]

Villages and chests.

Take any map. Add a chest, bam, instantly a better map. Not only is there the excitement of getting a cool reward, you also have to beat barbarians / thieves to these villages and chests, which pushes you forward.

[Imuabicus der Fertige]

Main/Side Objectives. I´ll point to Conquest chapter 12 for this. Even playing normally without LTC in mind you can cut down on the turncount pretty good, if you don´t go for the Armorslayer and the Gold. But you´ll probably want both or at the very least the gold. I think most main objectives are okay but give the map a trigger to shoot you in the foot. Seize/Kill Boss or whatever but if you aren´t done in 25 turns that gives the enemy a chance to react to your army, therefore next chapter you face more enemies or something.

Map design. That´s the initial impression of the map, I think. Does it look cool/ have interesting terrain etc. or is it just a big old plain with grass on it? Then there´s the things IS has shown they can do with maps. Ballistae, Wind, changing the entire map and so on. How can we interact with the map in a worthwhile way? Is the fortress that we are storming actually a fortress with enemy formations, treasure or is it just a bunch of tight hallways with archers magically shooting through walls and cavalry charging around corners like Pacman?

Enemies. No mono-class maps. Just no. Also maybe have some stat differences between the enemies. Nothing crazy like the class mix we get served in TH with Masterclasses standing next to intermediate classes, but a point of speed here two points of strength there etc. between units of the same class. Otherwise you get Conquest enemies, where you fight one guy 20 times.

[Fates-Blade]

I think what make a good chapter is when it gives many options to win unless it has a battle with someone with high prestige then fewer options should be given IMO.

 

I think the Rout objective is more boring then defeat the boss, Sieze or Defend because it's a very basic objective that gives only one option to win , and can be very boring if you have to go across the map just to defeat a few weak enemies.

 

The Defend objective can be a very nice change of pace if it's done right with interesting gameplay, and I think most Defend maps in the FE series have interesting gameplay.

[Flere210]

2 hours ago, eclipse said:

I think you're trying to say something cool, but I can't parse it.  Can you give an example of what you'd like to see?

---

Imagine if the game is balanced in such a way that warpskip is possible, but a 20/20 est, due to abnormally high caps, is the only unit in the game that can ORKO bosses, therefore, spending 10 turns in their joining chapter allow you to warpskip 3-4 long maps later, saving much more than the 10 you spent earlier. 

I don't like warpskip, but the gist of it is that a fully leveled Est should be so powerful that it open up new strategies that cannot be done by anyone else.

In FE the examples i can think off are FE4 master knight and maybe Reverse Recruitment Karel.

Edited February 27, 2020 by Flere210

[starburst]

Something that has not been mentioned: I like when a map teaches you something, not by telling but through its design.

Say, Conquest Chapter 7, its very first map, takes place on a swap where you are ambushed from north, west and south but, very conveniently, there is a bridge at its centre that naturally creates a bottleneck, allowing you to take advantage of the position: strong units at the ends, to both protect the fragile units and take advantage of their damage-reducing auras and skills.

In Chapter 8, you are give a very high reward (10.000 gold, the same amount given to you in Chapters 23 or 25, for example) if you visit three village houses before the enemy does. This objective is easily be achieved by Turn 4, mind you, it is not at all difficult. But on its second map, the game already introduces the concepts of time limit and rewards.
This map is also your first contact with Dragon Veins in the main campaign, a mechanic triggered by royal-blood units, which alters the environment. In this case, it alters the frozen lake where the battle takes place, freezing your enemies and allowing your units to flee or regroup or reach one of the aforementioned houses. The mixed enemies weild all three weapon "colours", with magical and physical attacks.

[soren5]

5 hours ago, Flere210 said:

Imagine if the game is balanced in such a way that warpskip is possible, but a 20/20 est, due to abnormally high caps, is the only unit in the game that can ORKO bosses, therefore, spending 10 turns in their joining chapter allow you to warpskip 3-4 long maps later, saving much more than the 10 you spent earlier. 

I don't like warpskip, but the gist of it is that a fully leveled Est should be so powerful that it open up new strategies that cannot be done by anyone else.

In FE the examples i can think off are FE4 master knight and maybe Reverse Recruitment Karel.

I also think this is a very interesting and under explored ideas. If a unit asks you to give them a large amount of resources then they should be able to do things no one else can. I'll also add that high stats are not the only way to do this, it could be interesting to see a unit with poor bases but an absurd personal skill.

51 minutes ago, starburst said:

Something that has not been mentioned: I like when a map teaches you something, not by telling but through its design.

Say, Conquest Chapter 7, its very first map, takes place on a swap where you are ambushed from north, west and south but, very conveniently, there is a bridge at its centre that naturally creates a bottleneck, allowing you to take advantage of the position: strong units at the ends, to both protect the fragile units and take advantage of their damage-reducing auras and skills.

In Chapter 8, you are give a very high reward (10.000 gold, the same amount given to you in Chapters 23 or 25, for example) if you visit three village houses before the enemy does. This objective is easily be achieved by Turn 4, mind you, it is not at all difficult. But on its second map, the game already introduces the concepts of time limit and rewards.
This map is also your first contact with Dragon Veins in the main campaign, a mechanic triggered by royal-blood units, which alters the environment. In this case, it alters the frozen lake where the battle takes place, freezing your enemies and allowing your units to flee or regroup or reach one of the aforementioned houses. The mixed enemies weild all three weapon "colours", with magical and physical attacks.

 

This is a very interesting idea that I don't think is well explored in most FE games, your post makes me want to give Conquest a try.

[starburst]

8 hours ago, soren5 said:

This is a very interesting idea that I don't think is well explored in most FE games, your post makes me want to give Conquest a try.

Say what you want about Conquest's history or characters, but there are numerous things to like about its gameplay and map design.

Chapter 9 introduces two concepts: area triggers of reinforcements and, most importantly, party splitting. It takes place inside a cavern and by Turn 1 you are given one extra member to your party (not an Ally nor a potential recruit, but an actual, player-controlled Blue Unit.) She appears at the other side of the map, unarmed and in an alley. It is impossible for her to cross the map given the enemy density, or for you to reach her fast. She does have a chest key in her inventory, and there is a treasure not far away from her initial position, hinting that she might want to reach it. Also, there is a patrolling enemy in the area, and even though he does not immediately chase her, it is another hint that she might want to get out of that alley. You did not plan it or want it, but this addition and positioning split your party right from Turn 1, and both groups (your selected units and the new girl) have entirely different objectives: march towards the boss on one front; get safe on the other.

Chapter 10 is a trick because its objective is to prevent enemies from reaching certain tiles for eleven turns (so, Defend, right?), but it actually plays like a Route one. If you wait in that area and expect to hold the lines, you will lose. There are natural barriers in the map, but the boss sits on a Dragon Vein that can remove them all at will, turning the map into a more open area, with enemies approaching you from all fronts.
It introduces various elements: ballistae, proton cannons (those magical things), planned reinforcements on your side, and enemy use of Dragon Veins (with its corresponding alteration of the map.)
Treasure? There is four of them, conveniently placed in areas where it is easier and safer to tackle enemies. Enemy reinforcements? Only every other turn. Enemy diversity? Fighters, lancers, ninjas, archers and sexy girls on pegasi. You still want to hold the lines? Enemies have Seal Defence, de-buffing weapons, Poison Strike and Lunge. Oh!, and the sexy girls will simply ignore you and run towards the goal, as they do in real life.
Split your party and assign specific objectives to each group. Do not wait, charge.

Edited February 28, 2020 by starburst
Tone.

[eclipse]

22 hours ago, Flere210 said:

Imagine if the game is balanced in such a way that warpskip is possible, but a 20/20 est, due to abnormally high caps, is the only unit in the game that can ORKO bosses, therefore, spending 10 turns in their joining chapter allow you to warpskip 3-4 long maps later, saving much more than the 10 you spent earlier. 

I don't like warpskip, but the gist of it is that a fully leveled Est should be so powerful that it open up new strategies that cannot be done by anyone else.

In FE the examples i can think off are FE4 master knight and maybe Reverse Recruitment Karel.

I mean, if your end goal is to thumb your nose at LTC, then perhaps?  I don't like the idea of force-training someone just to get past something.

[Flere210]

2 hours ago, eclipse said:

I mean, if your end goal is to thumb your nose at LTC, then perhaps?  I don't like the idea of force-training someone just to get past something.

I'd like the game to be balanced around the strategies that are deemed "efficent", mostly because units in efficiency would still be good in non-efficent play, but rarely to the point of game breaking. Or even more, i want back ranking and that the game is balanced around everyone helping out in better ways than "train everyone for exp rank". 

 

In the context of the post. I think that it's difficult for a game to award you spending more time on a map. It's either use it to train an est or put some good item on later reinforcement. And i do not think that doing either is advisable, just that those are the only ways i can think of to make spending time on a map rewarding.