Was Emperor Wilhelm and Seiros an item?

[Darkmoon6789]

One of the books in the abyss library seems to suggest that. Then there is also the fact that crests are often passed through bloodlines, Edelgard has a minor crest of Seiros, so either Emperor Wilhelm was given some kind of blood transfusion, or they actually had a child together, which became the Imperial royal line. This would make Edelgard a direct descendant of Seiros, which is quite ironic, but also quite fitting as they were both badass conquerors, Seiros being the original uniter of Fodlan, and Edelgard having done the same in recent times. 

Spoiler

It is kind of interesting that if this theory is true, Edelgard actually went to war with her own ancestor

 

[Etrurian emperor]

I'd say probably not. You'd think the imperial family would be VERY boastful if they had been descended from the most holy figure in Fodlan. In this case their silence on the matter probably speaks volumes. In general the crests of the saints seems to have been granted by the saints rather than having been passed down through blood and the crest of Seiros likely isn't any different. 

Personally I'd say Wilhelm being more of a father figure to Seiros would have been more interesting. 

[Sid Starkiller]

1 minute ago, Etrurian emperor said:

I'd say probably not. You'd think the imperial family would be VERY boastful if they had been descended from the most holy figure in Fodlan. In this case their silence on the matter probably speaks volumes. In general the crests of the saints seems to have been granted by the saints rather than having been passed down through blood and the crest of Seiros likely isn't any different. 

Personally I'd say Wilhelm being more of a father figure to Seiros would have been more interesting. 

This. Plus in CF chapter 17, Rhea refers to Edelgard as "his scion". Presumably if her own flesh and blood betrayed her, especially given her mental state in CF, it would've been something more personal.

Not to mention Dorothea explicitly mentions the possibility of future writers adding sexual tension to a story in both CF and AM.

[Burklight]

I can't remember which route, but I thought it outright stated that Rhea gave blood to Wilhelm as some kind of payment for betraying the ten elites. 

[Darkmoon6789]

Granted, we do also have this, it wasn't as clear as I originally remembered it, but it does seem to suggest something. But it does seem to be from a novel set in the Empire that got banned by the church for whatever reason (maybe it is the obvious reason)

We also have to explain another thing, how come the Imperial Royal family has the crest of Seiros if they are not part of the Saints bloodline? Can we even trust Rhea into telling the truth when it comes to this? Edelgard being related to her would explain why she took her betrayal as hard as she did. I guess the church used to be very close to the Empire

Edited March 2, 2020 by Darkmoon6789

[Sid Starkiller]

Seiros and the 4 Saints (well, except Macuil) gifted their crests to certain nobles who aided them. I mean, Cethleann never had children, but Linhardt has her Crest. Cichol only has one known child (Cethleann) but Ferdinand has his Crest.

On a semi-related note, something I've been wondering is why, if Wilhelm helped Seiros take power, he still spread his version of history through his descendants. Did he at some point become disillusioned with her, and the social order she brought about?

[indigoasis]

2 minutes ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

We also have to explain another thing, how come the Imperial Royal family has the crest of Seiros if they are not part of the Saints bloodline?

Seiros granted her crest to the imperial royal family, similarly to how Cichol and Cethleann granted their respective crests to other families. The Crest of Cichol appears with Ferdinand's family and the Crest of Cethleann within Linhardt's family.

Something to note is that Jeralt also has the crest of Seiros. Rhea saved his life after he had been injured in battle by pouring her blood over the wound to heal it, which ended up granting him the crest, if i recall correctly (anyone is free to correct me on that).

Spoiler

There's also a conversation between Linhardt and Flayn about how he has the Crest of Cethleann even though Cethleann never had any children.

 

[Darkmoon6789]

8 minutes ago, Sid Starkiller said:

Seiros and the 4 Saints (well, except Macuil) gifted their crests to certain nobles who aided them. I mean, Cethleann never had children, but Linhardt has her Crest. Cichol only has one known child (Cethleann) but Ferdinand has his Crest.

On a semi-related note, something I've been wondering is why, if Wilhelm helped Seiros take power, he still spread his version of history through his descendants. Did he at some point become disillusioned with her, and the social order she brought about?

Quite possibly, but I did always assume that the delusionment with the church came later down the line with later emperors, maybe the knowledge that the church was led by Dragons was passed down throughout the generations, but it was originally presented as a more positive thing than the later emperors would present it as. 

 

7 minutes ago, indigoasis said:

Seiros granted her crest to the imperial royal family, similarly to how Cichol and Cethleann granted their respective crests to other families. The Crest of Cichol appears with Ferdinand's family and the Crest of Cethleann within Linhardt's family.

Something to note is that Jeralt also has the crest of Seiros. Rhea saved his life after he had been injured in battle by pouring her blood over the wound to heal it, which ended up granting him the crest, if i recall correctly (anyone is free to correct me on that).

  Hide contents

There's also a conversation between Linhardt and Flayn about how he has the Crest of Cethleann even though Cethleann never had any children.

 

Given of what I know of how people are given crests, this would still mean that the blood of Seiros do flow in the veins of the imperial royal family, even if Seiros didn't have any biological children with Wilhelm. The way Edelgard was given her second crest also seems to imply the method is some kind of blood transfusion, blood reconstruction surgery as it was called. 

[Lightchao42]

Probably not, but Seiros might have allowed people to think they were if she didn't want to explain that Crests can be granted by blood transfusion. The Feast of Decadence is hardly a reliable source on anything aside from showing that some people thought they were a couple.

[CatManThree]

An issue regarding the book in the shadow library you are probably referring to, "The Feast of Decadence", is that similar to the issue with the another book ("Romance of the World's Perdition"), we lack a lot of context in regards to the text we have available and as a result have issue interpreting aspects of it. The only information we reasonably can gather beyond how horrid some of the stuff the attendees of the wedding took part enjoying in, is the possibility that Nemisis and the 10 elites may have come from Sreng (the swordsman hailing from the north who were sent to be slaughtered by beasts for the attendee's amusement in the book, Rhea and Thales describing Nemisis as a bandit, and the unnamed elite from another shadow library book mentioning his "clan").

Anyway, regarding the scene in which Wihelm is described as "embracing" Seiros in that gruesome reenactment of the Nemisis' death, we never see this actually happen in the vision Byleth has at the start of the game. Rather, we see Seiros embracing the sword of the creator (her mother) after killing Nemisis. However, the mentioning of Wihelm actually do this could have been overplayed for the sake of the wedding attendee's entertainment. Someone (I think it was either Edelgard or Dorothea but I can't remember specifically who) mentions at one point that opera reenactments of history can change the events of what actually happened for the sake of making the story more entertaining, specifically the the idea of Edelgard being lovers with I Byleth inaccurately in an opera. Anyway point is that this could very well be the case for the reenactment at the wedding mentioned in the book. However whether or not the two were indeed a thing and the reenactment was just overplaying the scene based on the twos existing relationship is also possible.

In my personal opinion, I think they Wilhelm and Seiros were never a thing, and the reenactment was over-played. Similar to "Romance of the World's Perdition", "The Feast of Decandence may have been intentionally written (be it by IS or the in-universe author) with symbolism involved, specifically in regards to what actually happened after Nemisis was killed with Seiros embracing the Sword of the Creator and not her getting embraced by Wihelm. The symbolism being held in the irony behind this little coincidence's, possibly playing into further emphasizing how disgustingly entitled and the nobility was at the time.

[Darkmoon6789]

6 minutes ago, CatManThree said:

An issue regarding the book in the shadow library you are probably referring to, "The Feast of Decadence", is that similar to the issue with the another book ("Romance of the World's Perdition"), we lack a lot of context in regards to the text we have available and as a result have issue interpreting aspects of it. The only information we reasonably can gather beyond how horrid some of the stuff the attendees of the wedding took part enjoying in, is the possibility that Nemisis and the 10 elites may have come from Sreng (the swordsman hailing from the north who were sent to be slaughtered by beasts for the attendee's amusement in the book, Rhea and Thales describing Nemisis as a bandit, and the unnamed elite from another shadow library book mentioning his "clan").

Anyway, regarding the scene in which Wihelm is described as "embracing" Seiros in that gruesome reenactment of the Nemisis' death, we never see this actually happen in the vision Byleth has at the start of the game. Rather, we see Seiros embracing the sword of the creator (her mother) after killing Nemisis. However, the mentioning of Wihelm actually do this could have been overplayed for the sake of the wedding attendee's entertainment. Someone (I think it was either Edelgard or Dorothea but I can't remember specifically who) mentions at one point that opera reenactments of history can change the events of what actually happened for the sake of making the story more entertaining, specifically the the idea of Edelgard being lovers with I Byleth inaccurately in an opera. Anyway point is that this could very well be the case for the reenactment at the wedding mentioned in the book. However whether or not the two were indeed a thing and the reenactment was just overplaying the scene based on the twos existing relationship is also possible.

In my personal opinion, I think they Wilhelm and Seiros were never a thing, and the reenactment was over-played. Similar to "Romance of the World's Perdition", "The Feast of Decandence may have been intentionally written (be it by IS or the in-universe author) with symbolism involved, specifically in regards to what actually happened after Nemisis was killed with Seiros embracing the Sword of the Creator and not her getting embraced by Wihelm. The symbolism being held in the irony behind this little coincidence's, possibly playing into further emphasizing how disgustingly entitled and the nobility was at the time.

You do make a good point

Ironiclly, in my playthrough, the opera depicting Byleth and Edelgard as lovers would be totally historicly accurate.

[Deathcon]

*Looks at the Wilhelm golem*

Are*

Being serious I don't think they had a loving relationship and I think he gained the crest of Seiros the same way Jeralt did. Also, it seems he was her closest human ally of his time so I doubt he was the one who began the false accusations against Seiros. I won't be surprised if a Agratahan sneaked their own ideas in his journal.

[Sid Starkiller]

Come to think of it, it's entirely possible that someone at that wedding reception saw Wilhelm hug Seiros (not an unusual occurrence at a wedding) and said "Wilhelm and Seiros hugging? I bet they're secret lovers" and the gossip got around to the book writer.

4 minutes ago, Deathcon said:

*Looks at the Wilhelm golem*

Are*

Being serious I don't think they had a loving relationship and I think he gained the crest of Seiros the same way Jeralt did. Also, it seems he was her closest human ally of his time so I doubt he was the one who began the false accusations against Seiros. I won't be surprised if a Agratahan sneaked their own ideas in his journal.

Sometimes people change their minds about their beliefs. Until we get actual evidence that Slither implanted the idea in the royal family's heads, I will not believe it.

[vanguard333]

1 hour ago, Sid Starkiller said:

On a semi-related note, something I've been wondering is why, if Wilhelm helped Seiros take power, he still spread his version of history through his descendants. Did he at some point become disillusioned with her, and the social order she brought about?

I think Wilheim's relationship with Rhea was probably a lot like Jeralt's: he looked up to her a great deal, but more than likely grew to fear her after enough half-truths, being kept in the dark about important things like the Red Canyon and what the Relics are made out of, and seeing enough of her wrathful side. So, much like Jeralt passing down what he knew (Byleth having a pulse but no heartbeat and zero expression as a baby), Wilheim passed down his incomplete knowledge of events as a warning to his son & descendants. 

 

19 minutes ago, Deathcon said:

*Looks at the Wilhelm golem*

Are*

Being serious I don't think they had a loving relationship and I think he gained the crest of Seiros the same way Jeralt did. Also, it seems he was her closest human ally of his time so I doubt he was the one who began the false accusations against Seiros. I won't be surprised if a Agratahan sneaked their own ideas in his journal.

Jeralt was once Rhea's closest human ally until he then grew to fear her. 

Also, the information passed down from Emperor to Emperor wasn't false; it was incomplete. The information was that the Relics were made by people, not Sothis, and that Seiros' war with Nemesis wasn't a holy conflict but a personal one. That much is true, but it's missing key details; details Seiros would never open up about and almost certainly kept Wilheim in the dark about. It makes sense to me that this info really would be passed down through the Imperial family, much like Jeralt passing on what incomplete information he knew about the circumstances around Byleth's birth. 

 

@Darkmoon6789

Quote

Ironically, in my playthrough, the opera depicting Byleth and Edelgard as lovers would be totally historically accurate.

Same. But it was my first playthrough of Three Houses.

Edited March 2, 2020 by vanguard333

[Deathcon]

24 minutes ago, Sid Starkiller said:

Sometimes people change their minds about their beliefs. Until we get actual evidence that Slither implanted the idea in the royal family's heads, I will not believe it.

1. Wilhelm began the war against Nemesis and fought him and the Agrathans.

2. Most of us presume Seiros saved him by giving him his blood thus granting the crest of Seiros.

3. Adrestia was named by a divine oracle, perhaps really Seiros.

4. Enbarr, the capital of Adrestia to this day, was where Seiros lived before the war.

5. Somehow Rhea herself believes Edelgard betrayed Wilhelm. You know, the person who "fooled" the entirety of the nation is fooled by her closest ally?

6. His son followed in his footsteps.

7. Oh right. HE DIED DURING THE WAR OF HEROES! E: Shouting for emphasis. Not actually angry.

I don't think he would have changed his mind.

Edited March 2, 2020 by Deathcon
Edit

[Sid Starkiller]

1-5 are all irrelevant to what I said. And where in-game is it stated that he died during the war?

I've seen multiple people propose the idea of Agarthan interference without any proof, and while I'm not trying to turn this into yet another Edelgard vs Rhea argument, it seems like the idea was born of Edelgard haters trying to make her look as much of a Slither puppet as possible to justify their hatred.

[vanguard333]

9 minutes ago, Deathcon said:

1. Wilhelm began the war against Nemesis and fought him and the Agrathans.

2. Most of us presume Seiros saved him by giving him his blood thus granting the crest of Seiros.

3. Adrestia was named by a divine oracle, perhaps really Seiros.

4. Enbarr, the capital of Adrestia to this day, was where Seiros lived before the war.

5. Somehow Rhea herself believes Edelgard betrayed Wilhelm. You know, the person who "fooled" the entirety of the nation is fooled by her closest ally?

6. His son followed in his footsteps.

7. Oh right. HE DIED DURING THE WAR OF HEROES!

I don't think he would have changed his mind.

He wouldn't have had to change his mind; just grow fearful of Seiros. If the information really did come from Wilheim, then the following would be true:

1. Seiros kept him in the dark about the events at the Red Canyon and the origin of the Relics. Easy to believe; Seiros isn't exactly one to open up to people about that; in fact, that's one of her bigger personal issues.
2. Wilheim found out on his own that the relics were man-made, but didn't find out what they were made of. As you said, he died during the War of Heroes. So it's reasonable. 

Also, even if you're right, Wilheim had a son, who would've:

1. Gotten involved in the last stages of the War of Heroes
2. Had to know Seiros at some point
3. Would know that his dad died in her war with Nemesis

If the info wasn't from Wilheim I, it's not hard to believe that it might've come from his son, who would've had good reason to be wary of her given all that. 

 

Also, regarding 5 in particular, Rhea had no idea that Jeralt had grown wary and fearful of her. It's not hard to believe that she can't see when she's scaring those close to her. 

[Deathcon]

3 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

e wouldn't have had to change his mind; just grow fearful of Seiros. If the information really did come from Wilheim, then the following would be true:

1. Seiros kept him in the dark about the events at the Red Canyon and the origin of the Relics. Easy to believe; Seiros isn't exactly one to open up to people about that; in fact, that's one of her bigger personal issues.
2. Wilheim found out on his own that the relics were man-made, but didn't find out what they were made of. As you said, he died during the War of Heroes. So it's reasonable. 

None of this would make him grow fearful on their own. Especially number 1.

4 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

Also, even if you're right, Wilheim had a son, who would've:

1. Gotten involved in the last stages of the War of Heroes
2. Had to know Seiros at some point
3. Would know that his dad died in her war with Nemesis

To quote the wiki:

"At some point during the War of Heroes, Wilhelm died and was succeeded by his son Lycaon I, who continued his father's crusade until his own death in Imperial Year 98, which marked the end of the war. Over a thousand years later, the people of the Empire revere their founder as Great Emperor Wilhelm I."

5 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

If the info wasn't from Wilheim I, it's not hard to believe that it might've come from his son, who would've had good reason to be wary of her given all that. 

 

To quote Lycaon's own wiki:

"Lycaon I succumbed to sudden illness in Imperial Year 98. The Empire took the opportunity to bring the War of Heroes to an end, as Nemesis had been slain by Saint Seiros in the Battle of Tailtean seven years earlier, and almost all of Fódlan had been conquered."

I think this is when the Slitherers infiltrated Adrestia poisoned Lycaon I and then altered his journal.

8 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

Also, regarding 5 in particular, Rhea had no idea that Jeralt had grown wary and fearful of her. It's not hard to believe that she can't see when she's scaring those close to her. 

Jeralt left Rhea perhaps less than a year after Byleth was born, she had much more time with Wilhelm.

[vanguard333]

12 minutes ago, Deathcon said:

None of this would make him grow fearful on their own. Especially number 1.

They would certainly make him wary and want to pass down what he knew. If you knew you were being kept in the dark about the reason for the war you're about to give your life for, wouldn't you be a bit wary? 

Ignoring the wiki stuff for now as I don't trust what's said on a wiki on its own; it needs to be cited.

 

12 minutes ago, Deathcon said:

Jeralt left Rhea perhaps less than a year after Byleth was born, she had much more time with Wilhelm.

She is still blind to his fear of her even after he's forced to return to the monastery, and she's shocked and remorseful if you tell her that Jeralt never told you about the parts of his past involving her. Rhea makes it clear in part 1 that Jeralt's full of BS when he says that Byleth was born after he left the monastery, but she's dumbfounded as to why he tried to hide it in the first place. She's not good at noticing when people are wary of her, and she's especially terrible at picking up why they're afraid/wary of her.

Seteth has to outright yell at her about what he found in Jeralt's Journal (something Byleth should've been allowed to do at some point in the game). 

Edited March 2, 2020 by vanguard333

[Darkmoon6789]

1 hour ago, Sid Starkiller said:

1-5 are all irrelevant to what I said. And where in-game is it stated that he died during the war?

I've seen multiple people propose the idea of Agarthan interference without any proof, and while I'm not trying to turn this into yet another Edelgard vs Rhea argument, it seems like the idea was born of Edelgard haters trying to make her look as much of a Slither puppet as possible to justify their hatred.

I am the biggest Edelgard fan there is and even I admit Edelgard is a bit of a slitherer puppet, at least that was their intention. Did not go according to plan, Edelgard is fairly independant for a puppet and doesn't like having her strings pulled.

But not everything Edelgard believes about Rhea is untrue

[Sid Starkiller]

12 minutes ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

I am the biggest Edelgard fan there is and even I admit Edelgard is a bit of a slitherer puppet, at least that was their intention. Did not go according to plan, Edelgard is fairly independant for a puppet and doesn't like having her strings pulled.

But not everything Edelgard believes about Rhea is untrue

Well, yes, but when I say that, I mean people who are trying to make Edelgard look comically, impossibly stupid. Yes, there are things she doesn't know or understand, but she's still mentally competent.

[Darkmoon6789]

9 minutes ago, Sid Starkiller said:

Well, yes, but when I say that, I mean people who are trying to make Edelgard look comically, impossibly stupid. Yes, there are things she doesn't know or understand, but she's still mentally competent.

I know what you are talking about. I don't personally blame the poor girl for not knowing everything, that is impossible, she does act rationally based on the information she is given and with good intentions

[Deathcon]

3 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

They would certainly make him wary and want to pass down what he knew. If you knew you were being kept in the dark about the reason for the war you're about to give your life for, wouldn't you be a bit wary? 

Ignoring the wiki stuff for now as I don't trust what's said on a wiki on its own; it needs to be cited.

We don't know everything Wilhelm knows.

It is found in the library of Garreg Mach The History of Fodlan Part I.

"The successor to Great Emperor Wilhelm I, Lycaon I, succumbed to sudden illness. The Empire, which ruled over the majority of Fodlan took this opportunity to put an end to the seemingly endless fighting."

3 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

She is still blind to his fear of her even after he's forced to return to the monastery, and she's shocked and remorseful if you tell her that Jeralt never told you about the parts of his past involving her. Rhea makes it clear in part 1 that Jeralt's full of BS when he says that Byleth was born after he left the monastery, but she's dumbfounded as to why he tried to hide it in the first place. She's not good at noticing when people are wary of her, and she's especially terrible at picking up why they're afraid/wary of her.

Seteth has to outright yell at her about what he found in Jeralt's Journal (something Byleth should've been allowed to do at some point in the game). 

She is remorseful over the fact that she lost a good friend. In her supports if you tell her Jeralt is afraid of her she isn't shocked, in fact her support points go up and she says that is something he would say. She even says it is understandable under the circumstances implying she knows why. Remember this is all in her C support which you can get before Jeralt's death.

[vanguard333]

3 hours ago, Deathcon said:

She is remorseful over the fact that she lost a good friend. In her supports if you tell her Jeralt is afraid of her she isn't shocked, in fact her support points go up and she says that is something he would say. She even says it is understandable under the circumstances implying she knows why. Remember this is all in her C support which you can get before Jeralt's death.

Oh, yeah. Funny, I did those supports recently, so I don't know how I misremembered that. Must be that my mind's busy with the tests I have this week.

3 hours ago, Deathcon said:

It is found in the library of Garreg Mach The History of Fodlan Part I.

"The successor to Great Emperor Wilhelm I, Lycaon I, succumbed to sudden illness. The Empire, which ruled over the majority of Fodlan took this opportunity to put an end to the seemingly endless fighting."

Thank you for using a source from the game. 

[Timlugia]

Pointing out that official church claim was the Emperors traced their lineage to Seiros..

Quote

House Hresvelg

The most distinguished noble house of the Empire, tracing its roots all

the way back to Great Emperor Wilhelm. It has been the governing

house of the Empire for 1,100 years. In addition to the first emperor,

its lineage is also traced back to Saint Seiros herself, which is why

generations of emperors are believed to bear the Crest of Seiros.

Quote

With the goddess’s omnipotence and wisdom to guide her,

Seiros ensures that her will be done.

As the goddess’s sword, Seiros wards away evil.

As the goddess’s child, Seiros makes emperors of mortals.

As the goddess’s wings, Seiros elevateds her people.

As the goddess’s voice, Seiros spreads the word of love.

For vast majority of people, if not everyone outside Church and Slithers, who don't know about the blood transfusion, these books clearly claimed Seiros gave birth to the emperors.

The game doesn't give solid evidence either way for the romance, but the new DLC indeed hints it's possible emperors were her descendant, at least this is believed by the Fodlan people.

 

Quote

Wihelm is described as "embracing" Seiros in that gruesome reenactment of the Nemisis' death, we never see this actually happen in the vision Byleth has at the start of the game. Rather, we see Seiros embracing the sword of the creator (her mother) after killing Nemisis.

Wilhelm would be long dead at this point, he died before Seiros dueled Nemesis in year 91. We don't know the cause of his death, but since it was during the war, it's likely he was killed.

Besides, Byleth's vision is pretty clear memory of Sothis. Sothis couldn't possibility witness interaction between Wilhelm and Seiros since she has been made into a sword by this time.

Edited March 3, 2020 by Timlugia