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Darkmoon6789

What if Azure Moon Dimitri would meet Crimson Flower Edelgard

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8 minutes ago, darkblade2814 said:

at least post-cinderd shadows AM dimitri knows about TWSITD thanks to Hapi

Cindered Shadows is a side story that is separate from the four main paths of the game.

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2 minutes ago, MrPerson0 said:

Cindered Shadows is a side story that is separate from the four main paths of the game.

Hapi's supports with Dimitri tell him about TWSITD

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16 minutes ago, darkblade2814 said:

Hapi's supports with Dimitri tell him about TWSITD

Yeah, but what @MrPerson0 is saying is that the Cindered Shadow story isn't part of the main story. It's like an alternative timeline. 

As for Hapi, yeah, she exists just to address the plothole in AM. And also confirm that even in VW/SS, the Agarthans return.

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1 hour ago, darkblade2814 said:

Hapi's supports with Dimitri tell him about TWSITD

Not arguing against that, especially since I just mentioned it before your post. Just saying that Cindered Shadows (the side story) isn't canon to the main story. The Ashen Wolves (a different version of them), are canon to the main story.

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8 hours ago, MrPerson0 said:

Not arguing against that, especially since I just mentioned it before your post. Just saying that Cindered Shadows (the side story) isn't canon to the main story. The Ashen Wolves (a different version of them), are canon to the main story.

I'm not really comfortable with that idea. It feels like it's supposed to happen in the middle of the larger story somewhere. 

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2 hours ago, Quillmonger said:

I'm not really comfortable with that idea. It feels like it's supposed to happen in the middle of the larger story somewhere. 

The problem with it is that in CS, Rhea willingly offers up all the information about Sitri to Byleth, but in the main game, everything about Sitri was a closely guarded secret, even from Seteth. There's no reason for Seteth to be suspicious of Rhea after Chapter 10 otherwise, and no need for the infodump in SS.

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The question is when or what story do they meet in? And at what point? Because I feel the best way if you were to have them come out of it on more friendly terms would be if it was end of azure moon dimitri and just before Rhea burns the city in crimson flower . And for the time period and story to be golden deer 2nd to last 

Why do I believe this? Well there would not be time for them to argue the slither are the biggest threat at this point . Claudes influence and his growth in golden deer would also help this which would result in them having to work to kill the slither first which would lead to Rhea saving everyone . Now this May have an impact on edelgard . Her enemy that she wants gone just saving her life it may have an impact no matter how small it is . 
 

this then leads into the nemesis fight and this is the big one . Everyone would want to defeat nemesis at all cost . Doesent matter if your edelgard, dimitri , Claude or Rhea no one wants nemesis to ruin any of their ambitions . Everyone I assume knows the story of nemesis so they know what kind of a threat he could be . Which would then force them to work together again to defeat him .
 

Now all that time between the slither fight , the 1 month gap for nemesis and the nemesis fight gives both edelgard and dimitri time to settle the differences which if they can settle them in that time it may stop them from killing each other but of course if it’s not settled by nemesis defeat then you know what’s going to happen . Of course there’s also the Rhea and edelgard issue to settle too which could go in certain ways too . This is liturally the best time period I can think off though these 2 can meet though as at least byleth having a lower amount to connections with them (authough it would be strange as their connections with byleth would be high who’s knows maybe that would be the deciding fact ) and a stronger Claude they would be able to be dealt with anything that backfired

Edited by MasterSlayerX

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1 hour ago, MasterSlayerX said:

The question is when or what story do they meet in? And at what point? Because I feel the best way if you were to have them come out of it on more friendly terms would be if it was end of azure moon dimitri and just before Rhea burns the city in crimson flower . And for the time period and story to be golden deer 2nd to last 

Why do I believe this? Well there would not be time for them to argue the slither are the biggest threat at this point . Claudes influence and his growth in golden deer would also help this which would result in them having to work to kill the slither first which would lead to Rhea saving everyone . Now this May have an impact on edelgard . Her enemy that she wants gone just saving her life it may have an impact no matter how small it is . 
 

this then leads into the nemesis fight and this is the big one . Everyone would want to defeat nemesis at all cost . Doesent matter if your edelgard, dimitri , Claude or Rhea no one wants nemesis to ruin any of their ambitions . Everyone I assume knows the story of nemesis so they know what kind of a threat he could be . Which would then force them to work together again to defeat him .
 

Now all that time between the slither fight , the 1 month gap for nemesis and the nemesis fight gives both edelgard and dimitri time to settle the differences which if they can settle them in that time it may stop them from killing each other but of course if it’s not settled by nemesis defeat then you know what’s going to happen . Of course there’s also the Rhea and edelgard issue to settle too which could go in certain ways too . This is liturally the best time period I can think off though these 2 can meet though as at least byleth having a lower amount to connections with them (authough it would be strange as their connections with byleth would be high who’s knows maybe that would be the deciding fact ) and a stronger Claude they would be able to be dealt with anything that backfired

This is a really neat idea, I guess Edelgard would realise after Rhea saved her life that she had been played by Thales. Granted Rhea would definitely have to agree to some reforms in order to avoid further conflict with Edelgard. But as this is post imprisonment Rhea, so maybe she would have realised that the crest and nobility system is a problem. 

All of this just makes me wish that Edelgard actually survived in verdant wind, so much untapped potential.

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10 hours ago, Quillmonger said:

I'm not really comfortable with that idea. It feels like it's supposed to happen in the middle of the larger story somewhere. 

The issue is when you can meet them. Throughout the main story, the Ashen Wolves never mention the side story in any form. Also, in the main story, you can recruit them as early as Chapter 2 even though the side story can't happen until at least after Chapter 4. Then, there's the Ashen Wolves leaving the monastery at the end of the side story.

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3 hours ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

All of this just makes me wish that Edelgard actually survived in verdant wind, so much untapped potential.

Problem is that if Edelgard survived, the Agarthans would have tried to use her. 

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On 3/3/2020 at 1:13 AM, Darkmoon6789 said:

 

One of the things I haven't got them entirely clear about Edelgard is exactly how she differs on the strong leading the weak topic. It doesn't seem consistent with her behaviour in crimson flower for her to downright despise the weak. Could be connected to her view of faith which is radically different between the two route. That is one way that CF is different from AM Edelgard, crimson flower Edelgard does tolerate personal faith and even kept around of a reformed church under Empire supervision. With Byleth, she just seems less radical in general

That segways into Edelgard being in an increasingly weak position herself in AM. Her goal is nothing short of changing how the continent works, but at the beginning of Part 2 she's in no position to rid the Empire of TWSITD - by the time Thales and Cornelia are gone she's clearly on the backfoot, and still needing every bit of Argathian help she can get to stay afloat. Her Machiavellian streak shows her uglier side when she has to pick her allies based on how much they contribute to her cause. 

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4 minutes ago, NolanBaumgartner said:

That segways into Edelgard being in an increasingly weak position herself in AM. Her goal is nothing short of changing how the continent works, but at the beginning of Part 2 she's in no position to rid the Empire of TWSITD - by the time Thales and Cornelia are gone she's clearly on the backfoot, and still needing every bit of Argathian help she can get to stay afloat. Her Machiavellian streak shows her uglier side when she has to pick her allies based on how much they contribute to her cause. 

I think Edelgard's main weakness is that she can be incredibly stubborn, she should probably have surrendered a long time ago, but her pride won't allow it. Not being able to get rid of the Agarthans would be a problem. I think she can't allow herself to give up because she will not allow all of the sacrifices she made the for nothing

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1 hour ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

I think Edelgard's main weakness is that she can be incredibly stubborn, she should probably have surrendered a long time ago, but her pride won't allow it. Not being able to get rid of the Agarthans would be a problem. I think she can't allow herself to give up because she will not allow all of the sacrifices she made the for nothing

Thus the tragedy of caring so much for those who have died, the only way forward is to keep adding to the pile of corpses. 

There's also Edelgard's trauma of being imprisoned and experimented upon... She says in multiple instances that she'd rather be dead than be in chains again. No doubt that also plays a major role in using increasingly desperate mehhods, as well as essentially forcing Dimitri to kill her in AM. 

 

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9 minutes ago, NolanBaumgartner said:

Thus the tragedy of caring so much for those who have died, the only way forward is to keep adding to the pile of corpses. 

There's also Edelgard's trauma of being imprisoned and experimented upon... She says in multiple instances that she'd rather be dead than be in chains again. No doubt that also plays a major role in using increasingly desperate mehhods, as well as essentially forcing Dimitri to kill her in AM. 

She follows the belief that it is better to lose and die for your beliefs than to live and surrender your ideals. Both sides can end up being seen as an act of cowardice depending on the point of view. 

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7 minutes ago, NolanBaumgartner said:

Thus the tragedy of caring so much for those who have died, the only way forward is to keep adding to the pile of corpses. 

There's also Edelgard's trauma of being imprisoned and experimented upon... She says in multiple instances that she'd rather be dead than be in chains again. No doubt that also plays a major role in using increasingly desperate mehhods, as well as essentially forcing Dimitri to kill her in AM. 

 

One reason I respect Edelgard's choice to die, things could be worse for her and at least she is going out on her own terms.

I would actually not put her in chains if she surrendered, but her trauma would make even a more benevolent form of captivity like house arrest unbearable to her. Seems like Dimitri wanted to rekindle the connection they had as children though so I am uncertain what he would do with her. I guess Edelgard would not even risk the possibility of being put in chains again.

Despite, she would consider it a betrayal to those that died for her if she wasn't eilling to do the same. I have a different view of surrender than her and would prefer if she survived, but I still see her willingness to die as very honourable in its own way

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I'm seeing a lot of rhea in this conversation and I really don't understand why both of the characters are rulers of their own kingdom she can't just declare war on two other kingdoms The only thing she can be mad at is edelgard being alive and they can probably talk that out depending on it how the conversation goes

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3 minutes ago, jawaunw said:

I'm seeing a lot of rhea in this conversation and I really don't understand why both of the characters are rulers of their own kingdom she can't just declare war on two other kingdoms The only thing she can be mad at is edelgard being alive and they can probably talk that out depending on it how the conversation goes

I don't really get it either as Rhea is either dead in crimson flower or way more reasonable in azure moon. 

In the case that crimson flower Edelgard ended up in the azure moon reality. Why would anyone assume this person is Edelgard considering she is very clearly dead in this reality? So I think this Edelgard might be able to pass herself off as a lookalike. Who would actually believe that a person that is very obviously dead. Or buy into the story of alternate realities and that this Edelgard is from such an alternate reality?

Another question is if Rhea has actually learned from her mistakes from the time before the war. I think it was mentioned that Rhea in azure moon did realise that she was partially at fault for the whole mess through her relentless secret keeping and lying. Edelgard might have also learned more about Rhea since the war ended and realised that things were not as simple as she originally thought.

In general, I think that the best chance for the two to get along would be if azure moon Dimitri would transported to the era after the ending of crimson flower. There are very few people that could pose problems in this timeline due to a lack of Rhea. I don't even think Edelgard really has a grudge against a Dimitri in this case and might just be happy to encounter a version of him, not consumed by vengeance. I also think that Edelgard's empire would be a significantly better place than what Dimitri would be expecting.

Crimson flower Edelgard in the azure moon timeline would have a significant amount of people wanting to kill her unless she could convince people that she is not actually Edelgard. 

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6 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

She follows the belief that it is better to lose and die for your beliefs than to live and surrender your ideals. Both sides can end up being seen as an act of cowardice depending on the point of view. 

 

6 hours ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

One reason I respect Edelgard's choice to die, things could be worse for her and at least she is going out on her own terms.

I would actually not put her in chains if she surrendered, but her trauma would make even a more benevolent form of captivity like house arrest unbearable to her. Seems like Dimitri wanted to rekindle the connection they had as children though so I am uncertain what he would do with her. I guess Edelgard would not even risk the possibility of being put in chains again.

Despite, she would consider it a betrayal to those that died for her if she wasn't eilling to do the same. I have a different view of surrender than her and would prefer if she survived, but I still see her willingness to die as very honourable in its own way

Pretty interesting to see her willingness to die is perceived differently. I'm personally on Darkmoon's camp and see it as respectable rather than "taking the easy way out". Her goals puts others in the line of fire, but she walks the walk by spearheading in the field whenever possible and fighting for what she believes in until the last drop. 

I do understand omega's take that maybe, she should've slowed down and taken a loss at some point to live for the future. But too many things were stacked against that being a plausible possibility: 

There's no way she could've coexisted with the continued existence of the Church of Seiros, which plays an integral role in post-war Fodlan in AM. Even a weakened Rhea would surely go to great lengths to make sure Edelgard remained dead or otherwise neutered, and surely other Church loyalists like Seteth and Catherine would wish the same.

And despite Dimitri's extending a hand until she forced him to kill, I doubt he could realistically keep her outside of a prison environment - considering the whole burning towns and working with Slitherers things that would have most post-war people demanding her head. As said before, she personally suffered too much under confinement, being a major driving reason behind her desire to die than be in chains yet again.

Lastly, her meritocratic, humanist vision of Fodlan is almost the exact opposite of Dimitri's, where he more or less kept the status quo except ruling as a benevolent king. The continued reverence of the Church, Crests and nobility is simply incompatible with not only Edelgard but her very existence - who suffered too much due to Crests, saw corrupt nobles feasting on her weakened family and the Church keep the people in blissful ignorance over who's really in charge of Fodlan. Considering the... logistical difficulties in keeping her alive post-AM, I doubt she'd be able to live with herself without wanting to do something about the world.

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41 minutes ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

I don't really get it either as Rhea is either dead in crimson flower or way more reasonable in azure moon. 

In the case that crimson flower Edelgard ended up in the azure moon reality. Why would anyone assume this person is Edelgard considering she is very clearly dead in this reality? So I think this Edelgard might be able to pass herself off as a lookalike. Who would actually believe that a person that is very obviously dead. Or buy into the story of alternate realities and that this Edelgard is from such an alternate reality?

Another question is if Rhea has actually learned from her mistakes from the time before the war. I think it was mentioned that Rhea in azure moon did realise that she was partially at fault for the whole mess through her relentless secret keeping and lying. Edelgard might have also learned more about Rhea since the war ended and realised that things were not as simple as she originally thought.

In general, I think that the best chance for the two to get along would be if azure moon Dimitri would transported to the era after the ending of crimson flower. There are very few people that could pose problems in this timeline due to a lack of Rhea. I don't even think Edelgard really has a grudge against a Dimitri in this case and might just be happy to encounter a version of him, not consumed by vengeance. I also think that Edelgard's empire would be a significantly better place than what Dimitri would be expecting.

Crimson flower Edelgard in the azure moon timeline would have a significant amount of people wanting to kill her unless she could convince people that she is not actually Edelgard. 

Honestly I'm not going to agree with the crimson flower part here in part because both edelgard and Rhea are complete idiots very impulsive idiots my add

 

Both of them have very short fuses in crimson flower doesn't change that much about that from edelgard it makes her softer but it doesn't make her any less impulsive or an idiot well at the end of all three routes Rhea is much more cool and has the main character as a literal blocking point simply because she gave up on her mother if this was before the end of part one I could see the problem but not after the end of any of the routes 

 

Azure Moon would be safer simply because Dimitri wouldn't kill her on site edelgard I can see absolutely killing or injuring him badly during the very first encounter simply because she wouldn't want the kingdom citizens to think their king came back

I mean look at Rhea throughout the game and you'll see that she's nothing but an idiot I mean most of the suspicious stuff people point out about her is completely by coincidence I mean the officers academy inside the center of the continent well that what looks suspicious and paint well in the edelguard suspicions of her separating the kingdom and alliance on purpose oops too bad The only reason that it's right there is simply because that's where her people were buried I swear most of the games things with her is completely through idiots crimson flower has the two characters talking on multiple occasions but they're having two completely different conversations

 

Edelgard it's too busy trying to paint Rhea as an evil monster Satan and Rhea is missing two gallons of milk in a jug like she's completely crazy do you want to know the actual proof of them having two different conversations look no better than the final battle of crimson flower edelgard it's too busy trying to say that she hates humanity when at not one point in the entire game and I swear they did it on purpose rhea never said she hates humanity ever.

even her final conversation she never said she hates humanity she just talks about them betraying her mother her mother and the goddess was literally and virtually the only thing she talked about to edelgard she was cracked like an idiot and probably had no idea what the hell she was doing she had to be put down like an actual dog because there was nothing left for her to do

Edited by jawaunw

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14 minutes ago, NolanBaumgartner said:

 

Pretty interesting to see her willingness to die is perceived differently. I'm personally on Darkmoon's camp and see it as respectable rather than "taking the easy way out". Her goals puts others in the line of fire, but she walks the walk by spearheading in the field whenever possible and fighting for what she believes in until the last drop. 

I do understand omega's take that maybe, she should've slowed down and taken a loss at some point to live for the future. But too many things were stacked against that being a plausible possibility: 

There's no way she could've coexisted with the continued existence of the Church of Seiros, which plays an integral role in post-war Fodlan in AM. Even a weakened Rhea would surely go to great lengths to make sure Edelgard remained dead or otherwise neutered, and surely other Church loyalists like Seteth and Catherine would wish the same.

And despite Dimitri's extending a hand until she forced him to kill, I doubt he could realistically keep her outside of a prison environment - considering the whole burning towns and working with Slitherers things that would have most post-war people demanding her head. As said before, she personally suffered too much under confinement, being a major driving reason behind her desire to die than be in chains yet again.

Lastly, her meritocratic, humanist vision of Fodlan is almost the exact opposite of Dimitri's, where he more or less kept the status quo except ruling as a benevolent king. The continued reverence of the Church, Crests and nobility is simply incompatible with not only Edelgard but her very existence - who suffered too much due to Crests, saw corrupt nobles feasting on her weakened family and the Church keep the people in blissful ignorance over who's really in charge of Fodlan. Considering the... logistical difficulties in keeping her alive post-AM, I doubt she'd be able to live with herself without wanting to do something about the world.

I have long since realised that the only way for Edelgard to live is if she wins the war, even if I wish there was another way. If I existed within Fodlan protecting Edelgard would be very high up my priority list. So I would have a strong incentive to want to make sure the war goes in her favour. Fortunately, if I would keep all the knowledge I have now. I do know exactly what criteria needs to be fulfilled for that to happen, the most important one being that Byleth must join her. Byleth is not only instrumental for her/his effect on Edelgard's personality and actions, but she/he is pretty much undefeatable in battle thanks to divine pulse, enabling them to undo any potential mistakes. I don't know how anyone could fight against a general with this type of power. 

So in a hypothetical example I was either a student at Garreg Mach or part of the faculty. I would try to sadly steer Byleth in the direction of Edelgard by using any means I could, including showing them information that would make the church seems actually.

Another question would be how much I would tell Edelgard about my full knowledge of Rhea and the church, telling her to much could possibly compromise the events I know need to play out. While telling her the truth about Rhea could lessen Edelgard's hatred of her, it could also lessen her drive to win the war and lead to a loss. 

While it might be preferable to prevent the war altogether, I am not seeing how society could change without it, and I would be reluctant to alter the timeline too much in case my interference would create a future worse than the four established endings. However tempting it may be

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33 minutes ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

I have long since realised that the only way for Edelgard to live is if she wins the war, even if I wish there was another way. If I existed within Fodlan protecting Edelgard would be very high up my priority list. So I would have a strong incentive to want to make sure the war goes in her favour. Fortunately, if I would keep all the knowledge I have now. I do know exactly what criteria needs to be fulfilled for that to happen, the most important one being that Byleth must join her. Byleth is not only instrumental for her/his effect on Edelgard's personality and actions, but she/he is pretty much undefeatable in battle thanks to divine pulse, enabling them to undo any potential mistakes. I don't know how anyone could fight against a general with this type of power. 

So in a hypothetical example I was either a student at Garreg Mach or part of the faculty. I would try to sadly steer Byleth in the direction of Edelgard by using any means I could, including showing them information that would make the church seems actually.

Another question would be how much I would tell Edelgard about my full knowledge of Rhea and the church, telling her to much could possibly compromise the events I know need to play out. While telling her the truth about Rhea could lessen Edelgard's hatred of her, it could also lessen her drive to win the war and lead to a loss. 

While it might be preferable to prevent the war altogether, I am not seeing how society could change without it, and I would be reluctant to alter the timeline too much in case my interference would create a future worse than the four established endings. However tempting it may be

 

I do think Edelgard could've plausibly survived VW, considering Claude's vision wasn't so different from hers and arguably had the same end goal - and it extended to Almyra, even.

The problem with her survival comes from the fact Byleth is not allowed to build support with the remaining lords, so when they face Edelgard there's no reason for Byleth to believe she would do anything except get Claude's way - and as ever, Edelgard is committed to dying for her cause. Despite the lack of interactions with her on VW, she still has enough trust in Byleth to not stab them until their last breath. It's an interesting juxtaposition that in AM she forces her killer's hand despite being offered mercy in a hopeless situation, but in VW she readily accepts death at the hands of the one person who could've kept her happily breathing to live in a world similar to what she had hoped for.

But alas, the game doesn't give you the option to work things out. With Edelgard realizing that Claude and Byleth had the means to lead a godless and crestless world, I think she could've taken kindly to exile and lived out the rest of her presumably short lifespan in obscurity. 

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1 hour ago, NolanBaumgartner said:

 

I do think Edelgard could've plausibly survived VW, considering Claude's vision wasn't so different from hers and arguably had the same end goal - and it extended to Almyra, even.

The problem with her survival comes from the fact Byleth is not allowed to build support with the remaining lords, so when they face Edelgard there's no reason for Byleth to believe she would do anything except get Claude's way - and as ever, Edelgard is committed to dying for her cause. Despite the lack of interactions with her on VW, she still has enough trust in Byleth to not stab them until their last breath. It's an interesting juxtaposition that in AM she forces her killer's hand despite being offered mercy in a hopeless situation, but in VW she readily accepts death at the hands of the one person who could've kept her happily breathing to live in a world similar to what she had hoped for.

But alas, the game doesn't give you the option to work things out. With Edelgard realizing that Claude and Byleth had the means to lead a godless and crestless world, I think she could've taken kindly to exile and lived out the rest of her presumably short lifespan in obscurity. 

That could work, or she could actually join forces with them against the Agarthans during the final few chapters. Given how long she has left to live based on Lysithea, now what I think about it, there isn't much point for her to survive the war unless something is done about that second crest. Lysithea only really survives five years after the war is over without help, assuming it is the same for Edelgard.

But Edelgard might have actually been fine with Claude's vision for the future if she knew what the doors were so similar.

If I were to alter the timeline, by using my knowledge if I entered the world, I guess one of the things I would try to do differently is attempting to recruit Claude to Edelgard's cause. If he could be persuaded to join the Flame Emperor before the reveal. If we explain the issues with the church and the society we want to make in the future. But he won't like the methods. 

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10 hours ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

That could work, or she could actually join forces with them against the Agarthans during the final few chapters. Given how long she has left to live based on Lysithea, now what I think about it, there isn't much point for her to survive the war unless something is done about that second crest. Lysithea only really survives five years after the war is over without help, assuming it is the same for Edelgard.

But Edelgard might have actually been fine with Claude's vision for the future if she knew what the doors were so similar.

If I were to alter the timeline, by using my knowledge if I entered the world, I guess one of the things I would try to do differently is attempting to recruit Claude to Edelgard's cause. If he could be persuaded to join the Flame Emperor before the reveal. If we explain the issues with the church and the society we want to make in the future. But he won't like the methods. 

I'm not sure whether that would change things. Pre timeskip, Claude keeps his associates at arm's length, not really trusting anyone to the fullest extent. And he avoids confrontations unless absolutely necessary. So I highly doubt he'd be on board with either the coup or the Holy Tomb attack even if he was in agreement with Edelgard's goals.

At that point in the story it's just really hard for observers to rationalize Edelgard's actions. As far as they're concerned she's triggering a war in her own pursuit of power and lofty goals. Even if someone like Claude had the same knowledge as Edelgard, he has no reason to believe it's preferable to doing nothing for the moment, or trying to work out a less bloody way (which is what Claude would probably suggest).

And I doubt Edelgard would listen to whatever alternative Claude conjured. Her father is a near-dead lame duck, with Arundel/Thales and Aegir poised to be the rulers if she doesn't take the initiative. Her lifespan is shortened, so presumably she doesn't have much time to act. And the Holy Tomb opening won't happen again. So I think the only difference that intervention would make pretimeskip is that Claude would be conspicuously absent at the Holy Tomb, though post timeskip I'd imagine the two would communicate more - still, I doubt Edelgard would work with Claude because he ends up allying with the Church. 

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