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mangasdeouf

Conquest Girls tier list for girls only runs

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Hi,

I think it would be interesting to tier female units in Conquest for a females only run.

The rules are the same as usual (not based on LTC, more on efficiency, the role they play, are they needed, strongly recommended, how they contribute to make the game easier), except here it's a little special: no servant (no Felicia abuse) and no Corrin (Corrin will be male and only be pair up bot in defensive pair up as soon as posible, when Effie arrives for example). Pair up should be reduced to the minimum (outside Corrin who has to hide on someone's back, the rest should be used as independent units most of the time. Attack stance is allowed since ennemies already abuse it to the point where it's purely disgusting with their seal def/steel shuriken attack stance shenanigans. Kana is the only allowed child and will be discussed as well in this list.

Let's put 3 lists: 1 with reclassing/DLC classes authorized and the other where only the main class tree is allowed. MU can reclass freely since his usefulness entirely depends on the stats he gives to his partner. Kana will be the only one to be discussed in the 3rd list, and won't be tiered with other females since she depends on her mother and inheritance to be anything (though you must also specify if you reclass her or let her in her original class). Don't forget to specify Kana's recruitment time (since she will be different if you get her at a time you can kid seal her or during the beginning chapters).

This would help players who go for such challenge to immediately identify good units, units they should train until a certain point before ditching them and units who they should avoid.

Units who will be tiered: Camilla, Effie, Elise, Peri, Selena, Beruka, Nyx, Charlotte, Flora (Kana in the exclusive Kana tier list as stated above). Mozu is excluded since she appears in every route like the servants, Silas and Kaze and has been discussed thousands times already. Many units will be tiered very differently between reclass allowed tier list and no reclass I suppose.

How I guess the tiers will look like:

S- Necessary

A- Very helpful

B- Can be used since you've got room anyway

C- Use it if you really want to, but it's like shooting yourself in the foot

Let's go!

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I'm really no expert on Conquest, but my personal take on the no-reclass list would be:

S: Camilla,Elise

A: Effie,  Selena, Charlotte,

B: Nyx, Peri, Beruka, Flora

C : Nobody

Edited by MrMinus

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5 minutes ago, MrMinus said:

I'm really no expert on Conquest, but my personal take on the no-reclass list would be:

S: Camilla,Elise

A: Effie,  Selena, Charlotte, Nyx

B: Peri, Beruka, Flora

C : Nobody

I don't know why you have Charlotte and Nyx as A - personally, I feel they're much, MUCH closer to C than A owing to serious accuracy problems, terrible durability, and coming underleveled (in Charlotte's case).

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2 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

I don't know why you have Charlotte and Nyx as A - personally, I feel they're much, MUCH closer to C than A owing to serious accuracy problems, terrible durability, and coming underleveled (in Charlotte's case).

Yep, i misclicked, wanted to put Nyx in B Tier. I'll edit it. But Charlotte, while being a purely offensive unit, i don't find too hard to level, and she probably has the best offensive potential aside form Elise. If nothing else, she's a str/spd backpack.

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26 minutes ago, MrMinus said:

Yep, i misclicked, wanted to put Nyx in B Tier. I'll edit it. But Charlotte, while being a purely offensive unit, i don't find too hard to level, and she probably has the best offensive potential aside form Elise. If nothing else, she's a str/spd backpack.

Still, I have to question just how useful someone who has only two good stats and dump stats everything else is... Regarding Charlotte, being a good backpack doesn't absolve her of being hot garbage as a unit.

Edited by Shadow Mir

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2 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

I don't know why you have Charlotte and Nyx as A - personally, I feel they're much, MUCH closer to C than A owing to serious accuracy problems, terrible durability, and coming underleveled (in Charlotte's case).

I quite agree for once, as Nyx the legendary sorceror who supposedly hits like a truck and doubles everything starts with base stats that are very far from letting her double anything at all, as well as tanking much magic damage (should I recall that the dark mage on the bottom half of the map who you want dead by turn 2 or 3 has 18 damage + the dark mage bonus damage skill at 2 range letting him reach 20 damage, all that on chapter 8? 1 chapter before you even recruit Nyx with 11 speed and eight res at level 9, while ennemy spear fighters have more speed than her? and die in 2-3 hits from her while some of them come with seal def to make your tank a useless arrow target? If you could put Elise near your tank...but there are archers everywhere around the chapter 9 chokepoint so everyone not called Corrin, Effie or Silas just get One Punched by Saitamarchers with their 20+ damage and damned attack stance).

Charlotte...she's salvageable I guess...but when she comes she would get one punched by most ennemies if she had less HP and it doesn't really save her since she get two shot anyway by about every unit on the map, the next map she can't be protected from the reinforcement spam of Kinshi knights and can't OHKO them either in return...I don't see her contributing much if at all before becoming severely underlevelled when she can be fielded and protected (in chapter 16 or even 17 since 15 is a stupid Corrin/Gunter fest where they force you to play Corrin even if you want him/her dead as soon as the game starts and if you dared not pumping exp/stat boosters into MU then this chapter will be near impossible unless he/she is a flyer and can skip the map entirely, welcome Camilla/Beruka marriage!).

Personnally I had Corrin take a vanguard scroll for Effie to tank most of chap 7 with Elise behind her and Silas (backpack Felicia) to block the path to Elise since this map can't be chokepointed by only 1 unit, although Silas was disarmed after he helped put the bottom faceless rushing north get into OHKO range for Effie. This way Effie got the maximum possible amount of exp in this map while staying safe enough not to die (level 10 at the end of the chapter, 27 hp, 16 str, 11 skl, 7 spd, 13 lck, 16 def, 6 res, next chapter will be hardcore with hordes of mages...but I'm trying no reclass except Corrin, and Camilla will probably end up marrying Corrin because Kana needs her to have magic, strength and existing def stats/growths alltogether, maybe even the villager lv 1 skill to have actual growth rates since she has such garbage personal growths sadly, thanks to IS being biased from the beginning to the end of unit design). Effie levelled def just in time not to be killed by 1 damage after poison strike spamming BS (I also had to take an elixir from battle points so she would survive when she fell to 2 HP and Silas was going to die, I healed Silas with Elise and Effie with elixir.

And regarding Charlotte as a backpack...I remind you that backpacks must be very restrained (only use if necessary, as in this unit dies if she isn't sheltered or if she doesn't get a backpack NOW). Healing items are gonna be the real deal, and I think it's impossible without some tonics.

You have 1 healer for most of the game, and Effie for 2 chapters, then (lol)Nyx who can only benefit from Corrin support (the reason why I made him a diviner as his second class, +3 spd/mag is just too good to pass since Effie should be able to do what she has to do with all the exp from chap 7-8...if it's even possible to survive this). I guess Mozu's paralogue has to be allowed in order to make ch10 even possible, and maybe I could allow ballistician MU cannonning  because otherwise it's quite close from impossible to deal with the 40 ennemies rushing in an Awakening level of stupidity and the really *insert gross word* pegasi rushing the defense point.

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10 minutes ago, eclipse said:

"Hey, make me a tier list", is how this comes across.

That's what i did

7 minutes ago, mangasdeouf said:

I quite agree for once, as Nyx the legendary sorceror who supposedly hits like a truck and doubles everything starts with base stats that are very far from letting her double anything at all, as well as tanking much magic damage (should I recall that the dark mage on the bottom half of the map who you want dead by turn 2 or 3 has 18 damage + the dark mage bonus damage skill at 2 range letting him reach 20 damage, all that on chapter 8? 1 chapter before you even recruit Nyx with 11 speed and eight res at level 9, while ennemy spear fighters have more speed than her? and die in 2-3 hits from her while some of them come with seal def to make your tank a useless arrow target? If you could put Elise near your tank...but there are archers everywhere around the chapter 9 chokepoint so everyone not called Corrin, Effie or Silas just get One Punched by Saitamarchers with their 20+ damage and damned attack stance).

Charlotte...she's salvageable I guess...but when she comes she would get one punched by most ennemies if she had less HP and it doesn't really save her since she get two shot anyway by about every unit on the map, the next map she can't be protected from the reinforcement spam of Kinshi knights and can't OHKO them either in return...I don't see her contributing much if at all before becoming severely underlevelled when she can be fielded and protected (in chapter 16 or even 17 since 15 is a stupid Corrin/Gunter fest where they force you to play Corrin even if you want him/her dead as soon as the game starts and if you dared not pumping exp/stat boosters into MU then this chapter will be near impossible unless he/she is a flyer and can skip the map entirely, welcome Camilla/Beruka marriage!).

Personnally I had Corrin take a vanguard scroll for Effie to tank most of chap 7 with Elise behind her and Silas (backpack Felicia) to block the path to Elise since this map can't be chokepointed by only 1 unit, although Silas was disarmed after he helped put the bottom faceless rushing north get into OHKO range for Effie. This way Effie got the maximum possible amount of exp in this map while staying safe enough not to die (level 10 at the end of the chapter, 27 hp, 16 str, 11 skl, 7 spd, 13 lck, 16 def, 6 res, next chapter will be hardcore with hordes of mages...but I'm trying no reclass except Corrin, and Camilla will probably end up marrying Corrin because Kana needs her to have magic, strength and existing def stats/growths alltogether, maybe even the villager lv 1 skill to have actual growth rates since she has such garbage personal growths sadly, thanks to IS being biased from the beginning to the end of unit design). Effie levelled def just in time not to be killed by 1 damage after poison strike spamming BS (I also had to take an elixir from battle points so she would survive when she fell to 2 HP and Silas was going to die, I healed Silas with Elise and Effie with elixir.

And regarding Charlotte as a backpack...I remind you that backpacks must be very restrained (only use if necessary, as in this unit dies if she isn't sheltered or if she doesn't get a backpack NOW). Healing items are gonna be the real deal, and I think it's impossible without some tonics.

You have 1 healer for most of the game, and Effie for 2 chapters, then (lol)Nyx who can only benefit from Corrin support (the reason why I made him a diviner as his second class, +3 spd/mag is just too good to pass since Effie should be able to do what she has to do with all the exp from chap 7-8...if it's even possible to survive this). I guess Mozu's paralogue has to be allowed in order to make ch10 even possible, and maybe I could allow ballistician MU cannonning  because otherwise it's quite close from impossible to deal with the 40 ennemies rushing in an Awakening level of stupidity and the really *insert gross word* pegasi rushing the defense point.

Sure, I missed the pair-up part. These are some really specific circumstances though. You also didin't say anything about Azura. Is she being used in this hypothetical run?

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Just now, MrMinus said:

That's what i did

If you want to, you can.  I, for one, expect both an explanation for the tier list and a backbone of said list by the person who makes the topic.  It means that whoever made it is invested in the outcome, instead of coming across like someone who's using us as free research for his own projects.

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I edited my post but another bug made it uneditable before I could save it, so...

S: Effie (only combat unit before chapter 10, decent bulk, Vanguard Corrin helps her being as tanky as she needs to be), Camilla

A: Selena (decent availability, weapon ranks, bulk and speed, though strength is lacking, bows is a real godsent so I guess you should promote her to Bow knight for actual damage and anti-flyer unit), Beruka (flying is as much a boon as it is a bane because there are archers everywhere in this awful game, but she can actually tank a hit even if she starts underlevelled, no HP+5 strips her from her S tier potential), Peri (shelter, decent bases, good offensive growths, but lacking in bulk most of the time and accuracy a little shaky), Flora (only othe staff user, decent ranks, decent bulk, comes with live to serve and demoiselle, can learn tomebreaker, if reclass in the same class tree is allowed can learn rally res and inspiration before the game ends since staff botting gives quite some exp).

B: Nyx (availability, enjoys diviner/onmyoji MU backpack once Effie can go solo, Nyx can become good but her start is quite hot garbage with less res than Peri with only 1 or 2 levels less, and 11 speed won't see her doubling before looooooooooooong except oni savages if she procs a few times + speed tonic, accuracy is really shaky is she shoots from 2 range, and 1 range is risky of course except vs archers).

C : Charlotte.

Kana tiers: S: none

A: Effie!Kana (decent def and res, good str, decent speed, garbage everything else), Camilla (comes too late to be S but has the potential and probably the bases).

B: Nyx/Elise!Kana (availability, good magic and decent res/spd)

C : Charlotte/Selena/Beruka!Kana (availability, Charlotte too glass cannon and 0 magic, Beruka slow and bad offenses, Selena bad offenses, none of them give +2 starting stats at base I suppose but I don't know how much of a stat you need to give +1/+2 bonus in base stats so...let's hope this is at least doable in few level ups).

Edited by mangasdeouf

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24 minutes ago, MrMinus said:

Sure, I missed the pair-up part. These are some really specific circumstances though. You also didin't say anything about Azura. Is she being used in this hypothetical run?

Azura shouldn't be used, because she's usable in Birthright, I don't know if I made it clear when I talked about Felicia not being used for the same reason. Which of course means you can't refresh anyone ^^ 😈

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With respect to this:

5 hours ago, mangasdeouf said:

This would help players who go for such challenge to immediately identify good units, units they should train until a certain point before ditching them and units who they should avoid.

and this:

5 hours ago, mangasdeouf said:

Units who will be tiered: Camilla, Effie, Elise, Peri, Selena, Beruka, Nyx, Charlotte, Flora (Kana [...]

I can understand wanting to discuss this, but with the units you wish to discuss, there is, I am fairly certain, not a single chapter where we could not deploy all of them anyway. Furthermore what about the joining male units (Arthur, Silas, Odin, Niles, Laslow, Benny, Leo, Keaton, Gunther, Xander, possibly Shura). Are they ignored? Killed off? Backpack during the chapter, then on the bench?

Not to mention the fairly… weird looking rules about both Corrins, Felicia, Azura and Mozu. No seriously, why?

Usually a Tier List is created to give a player an idea which units are safer/better to use in respect to a certain goal (such as LTC), no?

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28 minutes ago, mangasdeouf said:

Azura shouldn't be used, because she's usable in Birthright, I don't know if I made it clear when I talked about Felicia not being used for the same reason. Which of course means you can't refresh anyone ^^ 😈

Why would you shoot yourself in the foot like that??? Conquest is unforgiving enough as it is, barring two units from use on a technicality would only make things harder than they need to be.

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What a weird run this is, it feels almost surreal that I am considering early promoting Effie before chapter 8. I was questioning the viability of a run that had to find a way to avoid pairup abuse, and keep a Corrin (and hopefully Elise) alive through a chapter 7 that Effie has to solo, so I jumped into a Branch of Fate of Lunatic Conquest to see what I could do. I found a way to save both if you are allowed to facetank/kill-off  force the force deploy/recruit males (and have Corrin paired with Elise in a corner Effie could block off so they see no combat and gain no benefit from pairup besides space). There might be a way of pulling it off without both a defense tonic and Lily Poise, but you would need either some clever AI manipulations, or perhaps some online cheese to get access to both a Javelin from the armory and tonics from the staff shop to pull it off without Elise.

@mangasdeouf it looks like you forgot to put Elise on tier list entirely.

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1 hour ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

What a weird run this is, it feels almost surreal that I am considering early promoting Effie before chapter 8. I was questioning the viability of a run that had to find a way to avoid pairup abuse, and keep a Corrin (and hopefully Elise) alive through a chapter 7 that Effie has to solo, so I jumped into a Branch of Fate of Lunatic Conquest to see what I could do. I found a way to save both if you are allowed to facetank/kill-off  force the force deploy/recruit males (and have Corrin paired with Elise in a corner Effie could block off so they see no combat and gain no benefit from pairup besides space). There might be a way of pulling it off without both a defense tonic and Lily Poise, but you would need either some clever AI manipulations, or perhaps some online cheese to get access to both a Javelin from the armory and tonics from the staff shop to pull it off without Elise.

@mangasdeouf it looks like you forgot to put Elise on tier list entirely.

Ah, Elise is S of course, if only for Lili's poise making ch7 doable. Also you can pair my unit up, it's the only one who has to be paired all the time not to see any combat (well since you have only Effie and Elise in the first chapters, you can use meatshields to make the village rescue even possible, my Effie OHKOd all of the ennemies in ch8 with her ch7 lvl10 stats, MU vanguard PU C support with robust boon and HP/str/spd/def/res tonics, the fighters didn't even come after her when she reached lv 11 since they dealt 0 damage to her without even using Lily's poise, and the mages dealt very low damage + she had 32 damage at the beginning of the map...it's totally doable if 6 base res can do it so easily.

Also, ch9 was a walk in the park, I had to unequip Effie for ennemies to come at her (especially the archers they seem to target even when they don't really deal damage, at least her HP didn't seem to get any lower so maybe she took 1 damage per hit), and she could OHKO the spear fighters with iron lance, by the end even with javelin if I remember well (I mostly used heartseeker Nyx with attack stance Effie to ORKO the ennemies when they weren't grouped anymore so Nyx could reach lv 11). With the key you gain from someone in the chapter I took the rescue staff that will probably be required later on. I let the bronze naginata rest in the chest since it's not even half as useful.

If you use visit points, the guard naginata gives her even more res than MU +hp C support (+2) and little less def (-1) since supportive partner has to be counted in the def/res calculation. Not that she needs more def than what she gets from guard naginata anyway.

I rarely use Azura past ch9, so I don't really see any difference. The major problem will be numbers and lack of pair up.

For the question on the guys, well, if you need to PU in order to survive (or a meatshield) you can unequip them and use them for the free deployment chapter since they're here anyway, but it's better not to if possible. If my Effie could solo ch8 full of mages at level 10, then the only hard part ill be ch10 and only because you have to defend 4 'king defeat tiles (who the hell thought of it? it has never been more than 1 or 2 tiles to defend, or in RD Micaiah's defence chapter there was a wall only letting fliers pass it so you only had to snipe them and block the foot laguz to win the chapter by default, much better designed than CQ 10 from my POV). I've mostly seen dancers as dead weight for most of FE chapters in every FE I've played, since I don't LTC I can't protect them from being surrounded when too many ennemies gather, or I simply prefer using one more healer/damage unit than a refresher that gets OHKOd, can't heal, has 5 movement (so can't follow my army once they promote and I preferred to give the boots to my thieves in FE8 than to a unit I could not use because they would get killed as soon as they approach bolting/purge/deadly breath/longbow range or get picked by a Falcon/Wyvern lord/Paladin I couldn't block, but this was mostly in Awakening with same turn reinforcement).

Like I already said, avoid the pair up as much as possible except Corrin who can't be benched and might as well be a useful backpack rather than dying or having to be protected like a real life politician. Pair up is too subjective (which unit gets which partner, which one gives birth to which unit etc.) so I refer to keep the units in their original form without an alteration most of the time (+ it forces you to think of uncommon tactics to get past certain points).

Why I don't tier or use Felicia, Mozu and Azura: Felicia has early access to any t2 skill which makes her too good, and I think most of us who use her use her so often than trying to play without her brings something different, rather than just switching between Silas and Effie as your early game carry which is the concrete result of using Felicia, MU...Mozu has to use a second seal you're better off using on MU to let Nyx double (diviner/onmyoji PU makes her an effective killer with litte investment, which is the only reason for her existence). The hardest part will be to manage to give Selena some tonics (probably transported by Elise since she's the only one not fighting). Also giving MU to Nyx in Paralogue 1 allows them to build C support in order for Nyx to benefit from Corrin's personal skill in ch10, which gives her an effective 5 mag in diviner and 2 def (4 def with a tonic, bringing her to 8 def, 25 HP, so 33 effective health with def+HP tonics, which let her tank 1 axe hit, maybe 2 with the second def calculation 41 HP, it's quite valuable alongside +3+2 spd for a total of 16 speed from base or 18 in my case because Nyx levelled spd 2x in 2 lv ups).

Mozu if you pick the no reclass restriction can't even kill the pegasi so she's better off benched anyway.

I think I've explained everything you asked. If you have to use a meatshield for ch10 then go on, but I'm sure it's doable without it.

And I'm playing on hard (lunatic is a big no for me, even the pre-choice chapters are hell). I play in beginner since I'm sick of resetting after 20 minutes but if you feel like you can do it in classic ironman, then why not, your challenge, your difficulty setting. As long as it isn't normal mode (which is like playing birthright between normal and hard since without steel shuriken debuff, the ennemies don't even attack Effie in ch10, Benny could as well be reclassed to fighter in that mode in order for him to draw any ennemy towards himself XD).

I would really like hard mode and lunatic mode bonuses for playable units like in Awakening, FE6/7, maybe 11/12 and older games I don't really know. Xander would especially like more speed in hard and lunatic (and some res), Leo more mag/skl/spd/def, Keaton more def/res, Flora more HP/str/spd/def, Shura...is good as is...that's it I think, maybe Peri/Laslow could like more bases, Selena a bit more str/def/res and Beruka more spd/def since she's not supposed to tank magic, there's Camilla to make magic bounce on her tits as a Malig knight.

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2 hours ago, mangasdeouf said:

Why I don't tier or use Felicia, Mozu and Azura: Felicia has early access to any t2 skill which makes her too good, and I think most of us who use her use her so often than trying to play without her brings something different, rather than just switching between Silas and Effie as your early game carry which is the concrete result of using Felicia, MU...Mozu has to use a second seal you're better off using on MU to let Nyx double (diviner/onmyoji PU makes her an effective killer with litte investment, which is the only reason for her existence). The hardest part will be to manage to give Selena some tonics (probably transported by Elise since she's the only one not fighting). Also giving MU to Nyx in Paralogue 1 allows them to build C support in order for Nyx to benefit from Corrin's personal skill in ch10, which gives her an effective 5 mag in diviner and 2 def (4 def with a tonic, bringing her to 8 def, 25 HP, so 33 effective health with def+HP tonics, which let her tank 1 axe hit, maybe 2 with the second def calculation 41 HP, it's quite valuable alongside +3+2 spd for a total of 16 speed from base or 18 in my case because Nyx levelled spd 2x in 2 lv ups).

Do you REALLY like shooting yourself in the foot like this? Because that's what you're doing. You're sacrificing one of your best units to try to bolster a third rate unit who clearly didn't get the memo that high magic and speed don't make you a good unit when you have suck for stats literally everywhere else.

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On 3/7/2020 at 3:57 PM, mangasdeouf said:

Why I don't tier or use Felicia, Mozu and Azura: Felicia has early access to any t2 skill which makes her too good, and I think most of us who use her use her so often than trying to play without her brings something different, rather than just switching between Silas and Effie as your early game carry which is the concrete result of using Felicia, MU...Mozu has to use a second seal you're better off using on MU to let Nyx double (diviner/onmyoji PU makes her an effective killer with litte investment, which is the only reason for her existence). The hardest part will be to manage to give Selena some tonics (probably transported by Elise since she's the only one not fighting). Also giving MU to Nyx in Paralogue 1 allows them to build C support in order for Nyx to benefit from Corrin's personal skill in ch10, which gives her an effective 5 mag in diviner and 2 def (4 def with a tonic, bringing her to 8 def, 25 HP, so 33 effective health with def+HP tonics, which let her tank 1 axe hit, maybe 2 with the second def calculation 41 HP, it's quite valuable alongside +3+2 spd for a total of 16 speed from base or 18 in my case because Nyx levelled spd 2x in 2 lv ups).

I mean, play your own challenge run however you want, but for this specific topic, it makes more sense to tier all the girls that are available in Conquest, not just the ones who are only available in Conquest. It also makes more sense to use female Corrin so the early chapters can actually keep to the theme of the run. Also, "I don't tier this unit because she is too good" is, uh, pretty illogical for a tier list. Again, play your challenge run however you feel like doing it, but that's not a tier list.

Basically, you've made some really weird choices with this.

(I actually think Nyx is pretty good, though, since her high Mag and Spd and easily fixable hit rate make her a good player phase nuke)

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11 hours ago, Florete said:

I mean, play your own challenge run however you want, but for this specific topic, it makes more sense to tier all the girls that are available in Conquest, not just the ones who are only available in Conquest. It also makes more sense to use female Corrin so the early chapters can actually keep to the theme of the run. Also, "I don't tier this unit because she is too good" is, uh, pretty illogical for a tier list. Again, play your challenge run however you feel like doing it, but that's not a tier list.

Basically, you've made some really weird choices with this.

(I actually think Nyx is pretty good, though, since her high Mag and Spd and easily fixable hit rate make her a good player phase nuke)

I understand your point, but for MU you can just take the choice as the start of the run, which I do nearly all the time since the first chapters are worthless and a big solo fest with little use, most of the time you're gonna do the same things anyway so why bother. For Felicia, well, her performance won't change at all from a normal playthrough, same availability, same classes, same combat...she is still a promoted class Nyx with a worse class set and base class (for no reclass) with a somewhat better stat spread and better availability. If you put a DLC class scroll on her she looses her unpromoted unit exp gains so it won't change either (at least not  for the better).

Include Mozu if you want, but she probably won't see much use anyway because her initial investment remains the same and she still has little combat except sniping pegasi when she doesn't get surrounded by doing so, which means she's gonna kill 2-3 max and I'm generous, since her lv 4-5 stats as an archer are about the same as Niles defensively with less HP but maybe more def and less weapon rank to use better bows and not be limited to pegasus hunting. In no reclass she shouldn't even be deployed in ch10 or she's dying in 1/2 hits from anything while dealing little damage. She's only usable from ch11 and then if you raised her with max exp per chapter she can hold her own, although her HP is barely better than Nyx before long and only promotion will sae her from being a vastly inferior Haitaka with 0 utility. If I had to rank her she would be C in this kind of run, because she can't hide behind a wall of units and no backpack means she relies on herself to double and damage things (and attack stance). Unless you put Corrin on her back I don't see the point of using her, in BR ennemies without hulking def can be fought with little strength but in CQ it's unforgiving to not ORKO/OHKO the ennemies you pick. Her presence won't change much but it will steal exp from Effie and Nyx, the former needing as much str/skl/def/res as she can get to stay alive and OHKO everything without support, the latter needing as much exp as possible to be able to not die instantly and have the time to deal her damage especially when she needs attack stance bonuses/heartseeker to even hit with anything not E rank.

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On 3/8/2020 at 12:57 AM, mangasdeouf said:

(who the hell thought of it? it has never been more than 1 or 2 tiles to defend, or in RD Micaiah's defence chapter there was a wall only letting fliers pass it so you only had to snipe them and block the foot laguz to win the chapter by default, much better designed than CQ 10 from my POV)

“We´ve been always doing it this way, why would we change it up now?” Do you happen to be Austrian? That´s a very Austrian thing to say. Anyway it´s mostly to keep you on your toes, or rather it requires you to go out and be active on the map, not sit on the objective and snooze. 

On 3/8/2020 at 12:57 AM, mangasdeouf said:

I've mostly seen dancers as dead weight for most of FE chapters in every FE I've played, since I don't LTC I can't protect them from being surrounded when too many ennemies gather, or I simply prefer using one more healer/damage unit than a refresher that gets OHKOd, can't heal, has 5 movement (so can't follow my army once they promote and I preferred to give the boots to my thieves in FE8 than to a unit I could not use because they would get killed as soon as they approach bolting/purge/deadly breath/longbow range or get picked by a Falcon/Wyvern lord/Paladin I couldn't block, but this was mostly in Awakening with same turn reinforcement).

Beep Boop, does not compute.

On 3/9/2020 at 4:16 PM, mangasdeouf said:

Include Mozu if you want, but she probably won't see much use anyway because her initial investment remains the same and she still has little combat [...]

First, I´d like to point you to the fact that without Mozu you´d be tackling chapter 10 with… 4 units. Effie, Elise, Nyx and a Corrin you can´t use. You will get Camilla, Selena and Beruka on turn 2, I think? With the exception of Camilla, barring an early promotion none of these units will be capable of holding their own. Not to mention that your turn 1 will be extremely gimped and your units will face a relative greater number of enemies, since you have a lot less units to kill them with.

Secondly, the point about Mozu being worth it or not has been discussed at GREAT length. However, unlike these discussions you and your challenge are different in one critical aspect. Your 3 girls will have a lot of killing to do, more than enough for Mozu to be trained up. Recruit her after chapter 7 and bam, chapter 8 will be played with 3 out of 5 (?) free deployment slots. Similar things for chapter 9. That´s at max 3 chapters Mozu will be able to chip ´n kill and will therefor level up.

I´m not even sure one can beat chapter 10 with only 7 active combatants. Taking down the Pegasi alone would be a challenge.

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On 3/8/2020 at 10:35 PM, Florete said:

(I actually think Nyx is pretty good, though, since her high Mag and Spd and easily fixable hit rate make her a good player phase nuke)

Why? Because I honestly, think her having shit stats literally everywhere else undoes that. I could forgive low strength and defense because that's to be expected of mages, but not so much low skill, luck and HP. The end result is an insufferably inaccurate unit who you have to pray doesn't whiff up a storm whenever she sees combat, especially if it's not from 1 range, which would be risky, except against archers of course (and the low HP means even that isn't safe if they have Counter, because then she just croaks). Of course, maybe I'm just not very forgiving of crippling overspecialization, which is a problem Nyx has in spades, considering her one strength is rendered practically useless because of her shit accuracy. I dunno, I just think even something like committing seppuku with an electrically charged sword or pulling teeth is far less painful than trying to raise Nyx.

On 3/7/2020 at 5:57 PM, mangasdeouf said:

I've mostly seen dancers as dead weight for most of FE chapters in every FE I've played, since I don't LTC I can't protect them from being surrounded when too many ennemies gather, or I simply prefer using one more healer/damage unit than a refresher that gets OHKOd, can't heal, has 5 movement (so can't follow my army once they promote and I preferred to give the boots to my thieves in FE8 than to a unit I could not use because they would get killed as soon as they approach bolting/purge/deadly breath/longbow range or get picked by a Falcon/Wyvern lord/Paladin I couldn't block, but this was mostly in Awakening with same turn reinforcement).

Does not compute. And frankly, I'd say the problem is more with you than it is dancers. I mean, if you know you have to protect healers, why can't you protect dancers??

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S: Camilla and Elise - the royals are all overpowered except Hinoka

A: Effie - great availability and is great at what she does

B: Beruka, Selena, and Peri - Beruka is in a great class and Selena is a versatile unit you can dip in Hero to gain some strength and then reclass into Bow Knight for utility and style. Under normal circumstances, Peri wouldn't be high on a tier list due to the amount of cavs in Conquest but for a girls-only run, she'll be here bc she's actually a good unit.

C:. Nyx, Charlote, and Flora - Nyx is a glass canon. She's not a bad unit (she's not Odin!), but once you promote Elise it's hard to justify Nyx's niche. Charlotte would be a great unit if her availability was better or her starting level was higher. I usually give her the paragon scroll and she turns out great, but my personal experience should not be considered for a list like this. Flora is also a great unit, just with bad availability.

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On 3/10/2020 at 11:08 PM, Shadow Mir said:

Does not compute. And frankly, I'd say the problem is more with you than it is dancers. I mean, if you know you have to protect healers, why can't you protect dancers??

Healers actually get stats and can attack at 1-2 range on promotion (with highdamage most of the time) and they gain more exp the higher level of staves they use, meanwhile dancers mostly can't even fight, the few who can get obliterated by most decent ennemies in 1 hit, their avoid is garbage before long, they don't have decent 1-2 rage weapons (try using Azura with a bolt naginata to see how -20 avoid fares on her when she can't even do much damage, since her magic will be about the same as Oni chieftain Rinkah, minus fiery blood AND seal res...up to 10 damage lost, sure Azura should double more often once she gets out of her garbage base speed that doesn't double much for the next 8 levels if you powerlevel her, for most of the game if you don't).

If IS made a refresh staff, I'd certainly use it. Dancers are just a waste of a slot for me, it's fine when they're free deployment, then I bench them and almost never fell the need to use them anymore, it's already hard to use decent combat/support units in some games, there's no way I would let a slot go to an unit that can barely fight, has to be protected while it can't even heal or provide anything else than 5 base movement refresh. If they had canto + 6/7 movement I'd probably use them. But they don't, so I don't either.

That's what I liked in Echoes, clerics had a great variety of uses and each one had a different spell pool, making them effectively different from each other, one having rescue, the other warp, or summon. They could make a cleric/priest with dance/sing so it could counterattack (at least after promotion), heal and refresh.

But I don't need an unit that can only refresh and has to be very far from enemy sight for the whole game. I would rather have t2/t3 Micaiah since she could at least spam long range heals and spells as long as she had uses for them, far from danger, and even in t1 she could OHKO several bosses thanks to her personal weapon, rendering her useful even in LTC (or not, but OHKOing the boss with an unit that needs minimal stats to not die in chapter 8 or 9 where you don't know where ennemies come from and you don't even have a goddamn torch in the whole chapter seems rather nice in order to raise her exp by good amounts in one fight).

If you guys like your 5 movement 16 HP underlevelled dancer who can't take a single hit without dying, especially in games like No HP Emblem or Ultra High Damage Emblem (which sums up what Fates and Awakening are) and when you can even add the first one to the second with ennemies having 24 damage when your squishy units have 4-6 def and <20HP on top of the possibility that certain ennemies debuff your units' stats from 1-2 range, either with shurikens or with seals if you miss your finishing attack, which happens a lot especially when you desperately need this ennemy down now, then I don't say they're inherently bad, unusable or you shouldn't use them, just that I find them to be a hindrance and a serious waste of brain cells to use when I could use a juggernaut or someone who could help the juggernaut actively doing its' job without forcing weird shelter tactics requiring 3 units just to make 1 other unit move once more than usual refresh in order to clean more ennemies in a certain area (ennemies that could be killed using attack stance and opening the field to your bait unit that will place at the front after the area is clear to immediately draw the next wave, using as many units without any of them being in danger at any moment from a random miss, because they can actually take the counter or the ennemy phase coming after that miss).

To each heir own. I never actively used a dancer past it's free deployment chapters for the reasons I've listed and because I don't think that a weakling has anything to do on a battlefield if they can never grow to fight the ennemy or directly save my units in 1 command whenever I want (which anyone with a staff or save+canto/shelter can do). I'd even bring a knight/general rather than a dancer: same promoted move, actual combat ability, can protect its' allies and in older games could save almost any unit without fearing the ennemy phase coming at them because they could facetank it and use a vulnerary if needed to be full HP the next turn.

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15 hours ago, mangasdeouf said:

Healers actually get stats and can attack at 1-2 range on promotion (with highdamage most of the time) and they gain more exp the higher level of staves they use, meanwhile dancers mostly can't even fight, the few who can get obliterated by most decent ennemies in 1 hit, their avoid is garbage before long, they don't have decent 1-2 rage weapons (try using Azura with a bolt naginata to see how -20 avoid fares on her when she can't even do much damage, since her magic will be about the same as Oni chieftain Rinkah, minus fiery blood AND seal res...up to 10 damage lost, sure Azura should double more often once she gets out of her garbage base speed that doesn't double much for the next 8 levels if you powerlevel her, for most of the game if you don't).

I'm not stupid enough to entertain the blatantly half-baked idea that is Bolt Naginata Azura. If I'm going to have her use an evade dropping weapon, it'll be the Guard Naginata, which is much more likely to help her survive a hit. Admittedly, she needs to get to C lances first.

15 hours ago, mangasdeouf said:

If IS made a refresh staff, I'd certainly use it. Dancers are just a waste of a slot for me, it's fine when they're free deployment, then I bench them and almost never fell the need to use them anymore, it's already hard to use decent combat/support units in some games, there's no way I would let a slot go to an unit that can barely fight, has to be protected while it can't even heal or provide anything else than 5 base movement refresh. If they had canto + 6/7 movement I'd probably use them. But they don't, so I don't either.

They did... once. Of course, it was completely broken, so it got nerfed in its next appearance. Said appearances were in the first game to have dancer units, and a remake of said game.

15 hours ago, mangasdeouf said:

That's what I liked in Echoes, clerics had a great variety of uses and each one had a different spell pool, making them effectively different from each other, one having rescue, the other warp, or summon. They could make a cleric/priest with dance/sing so it could counterattack (at least after promotion), heal and refresh.

Speaking of, one character does get a refresh spell... but it's this trope due to the fact that it costs her a MASSIVE amount of HP (24), and the class she gets said spell in only has 30 base HP. The result? She's liable to die if she so much as gets flicked (and this is the same game with 5 range archers). That's putting aside the fact that she doesn't get the spell in question until level 14 in said class, by which point the game is over.

15 hours ago, mangasdeouf said:

But I don't need an unit that can only refresh and has to be very far from enemy sight for the whole game. I would rather have t2/t3 Micaiah since she could at least spam long range heals and spells as long as she had uses for them, far from danger, and even in t1 she could OHKO several bosses thanks to her personal weapon, rendering her useful even in LTC (or not, but OHKOing the boss with an unit that needs minimal stats to not die in chapter 8 or 9 where you don't know where ennemies come from and you don't even have a goddamn torch in the whole chapter seems rather nice in order to raise her exp by good amounts in one fight).

This game has no long range spells, meaning if we were going by this game's mechanics, she probably wouldn't be able to do anything other mages couldn't. Also, mages aren't exactly all-stars in this game, for the most part. That said, she'd probably be better than Nyx... not that that's saying much, of course. All this said, why do you love bringing up other games so much???

15 hours ago, mangasdeouf said:

If you guys like your 5 movement 16 HP underlevelled dancer who can't take a single hit without dying, especially in games like No HP Emblem or Ultra High Damage Emblem (which sums up what Fates and Awakening are) and when you can even add the first one to the second with ennemies having 24 damage when your squishy units have 4-6 def and <20HP on top of the possibility that certain ennemies debuff your units' stats from 1-2 range, either with shurikens or with seals if you miss your finishing attack, which happens a lot especially when you desperately need this ennemy down now, then I don't say they're inherently bad, unusable or you shouldn't use them, just that I find them to be a hindrance and a serious waste of brain cells to use when I could use a juggernaut or someone who could help the juggernaut actively doing its' job without forcing weird shelter tactics requiring 3 units just to make 1 other unit move once more than usual refresh in order to clean more ennemies in a certain area (ennemies that could be killed using attack stance and opening the field to your bait unit that will place at the front after the area is clear to immediately draw the next wave, using as many units without any of them being in danger at any moment from a random miss, because they can actually take the counter or the ennemy phase coming after that miss).

She'd still be more useful than losers like Nyx or Charlotte, who I'd ALSO need to constantly babysit and don't bring anything to the table a superior unit doesn't. How do you like them apples?

15 hours ago, mangasdeouf said:

To each heir own. I never actively used a dancer past it's free deployment chapters for the reasons I've listed and because I don't think that a weakling has anything to do on a battlefield if they can never grow to fight the ennemy or directly save my units in 1 command whenever I want (which anyone with a staff or save+canto/shelter can do). I'd even bring a knight/general rather than a dancer: same promoted move, actual combat ability, can protect its' allies and in older games could save almost any unit without fearing the ennemy phase coming at them because they could facetank it and use a vulnerary if needed to be full HP the next turn.

And that's why I say the problem is with you, not dancers.  You're not willing to tweak your strategy to accommodate them.

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