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Marth's unjustified invasion


Jotari
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You know, I just realized there may be something else to shed light in regards to the communication woes. Jeorge.

Jeorge:
“Prince Marth, I am Jeorge, an Akaneian sniper. I fought to defend our palace from Doluna but the enemy’s strength was too great. We lost, and I was captured. Thankfully, they’re not half as bright as they are strong, and I managed to slip away when they were not looking. I heard you were on your way to Pyrathi, and that Princess Nyna was with you, so I came here to offer my help. Let me fight with you to save my land, and I will use this silver bow to show you marksmanship unlike any you’ve ever seen.”

The bold part in particular. What does he means exactly with ''I came here''? That he wasn't in Pyrathi and traveled there when he heard Marth was also going there? Or that he was in Pyrathi already and the "here" refers to the village Marth visits? His choice of words only say he changed his location after he heard Marth was going to Pyrathi; and his last confirmed location was the Millennium Court. Since going to Pyrathi was a spur of the moment idea from Malledus, it's be strange if word of that reached Jeorge if he wasn't on Pyrathi already; but if he was, considering that village is the only present on the island, then where else he was? His words might also imply he escaped from his captors, then heard about Marth, then moved to the Pyrathi village. Which might mean he was not in Pyrathi when he heard. Though perhaps not. Because it's be very unlikely he arrived after Marth, since then why wait in the village? He could just offer his help as soon he reached him. But if he came before Marth, then word of Marth's arrival definitely reached Mannu before Marth made his way there. Something to ponder about...

But also, if he arrived first... then why he got a pass? Did he sneaked into the country? Did no one noticed he wasn't a local? Where were his aimed towards him death threats over defiling sacred ground? Did Mannu didn't care because he was alone, unlike Marth who was bringing an army with him? Once again, who knows; but it makes one think.

57 minutes ago, Jotari said:

I guess we did see a little bit of this with Ike at the start of Path of Radiance with Galia and Goldia. Fortunately for him both were were willing to over look it (and again with Goldoa in Radiant Dawn). What do you think Ike would have done if Deghensea had stuck to his "no way you're bringing your army into my country get back in the caves" policy in Radiant Dawn?

Ah, but you see here, in every case the Laguz were willing to talk to him. Unlike Mannu who decided to attack right away with no chance of diplomacy.

For RD's example, wasn't Ike aware of the whole "too much chaos is bad; the war is breeding chaos", then he's not going to pick up a fight with Goldoa, since that is going to risk escalating further the chaos. Also, the Laguz Alliance forces weren't in shape to get into a fight with the dragons anyway. Yes, I do see Ike having to accept heading back to the caves and hope they find the exit that leads to Gallia without finding more Begnion forces on the way. Keep in mind they emerging on Goldia was not their intention. The caves were a maze as it was.

And once again, Deghinsea was willing to talk and warn him first. Which Mannu didn't do.

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9 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

You know, I just realized there may be something else to shed light in regards to the communication woes. Jeorge.

Jeorge:
“Prince Marth, I am Jeorge, an Akaneian sniper. I fought to defend our palace from Doluna but the enemy’s strength was too great. We lost, and I was captured. Thankfully, they’re not half as bright as they are strong, and I managed to slip away when they were not looking. I heard you were on your way to Pyrathi, and that Princess Nyna was with you, so I came here to offer my help. Let me fight with you to save my land, and I will use this silver bow to show you marksmanship unlike any you’ve ever seen.”

The bold part in particular. What does he means exactly with ''I came here''? That he wasn't in Pyrathi and traveled there when he heard Marth was also going there? Or that he was in Pyrathi already and the "here" refers to the village Marth visits? His choice of words only say he changed his location after he heard Marth was going to Pyrathi. Since going to Pyrathi was a spur of the moment idea from Malledus, it's be strange if word of that reached Jeorge if he wasn't on Pyrathi already; but if he was, considering that village is the only present on the island, then where else he was? His words might also imply he escaped from his captors, then heard about Marth, then moved to the Pyrathi village. Which might mean he was not in Pyrathi when he heard. Though perhaps not. Because it's be very unlikely he arrived after Marth, since then why wait in the village? He could just offer his help as soon he reached him. But if he came before Marth, then word of Marth's arrival definitely reached Mannu before Marth made his way there. Something to ponder about...

But also, if he arrived first... then why he got a pass? Did he sneaked into the country? Did no one noticed he wasn't a local? Where were his death threats over defiling sacred ground? Was it because he was alone? Once again, who knows; but it makes one think.

Ah, but you see here, in every case the Laguz were willing to talk to him. Unlike Mannu who decided to attack right away with no chance of diplomacy.

For RD's example, wasn't Ike aware of the whole "too much chaos is bad; the war is breeding chaos", then he's not going to pick up a fight with Goldoa, since that is going to risk escalating further the chaos. Also, the Laguz Alliance forces weren't in shape to get into a fight with the dragons anyway. Yes, I do see Ike having to accept heading back to the caves and hope they find the exit that leads to Gallia without finding more Begnion forces on the way. Keep in mind they emerging on Goldia was not their intention. The caves were a maze as it was.

And once again, Deghinsea was willing to talk and warn him first. Which Mannu didn't do.

It is essential the same situation though, the only difference being Dhegensea was convinced to be cooperative. Had he not and acted more like Mannu, I don't think Ike would have been all that justified in ignoring Degensea and proceeding anyway (although the reality is also that Ike probably couldn't have won against Goldoa at that point while Marth was able take on Pyrathi).

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Just now, Jotari said:

It is essential the same situation though, the only difference being Dhegensea was convinced to be cooperative. Had he not and acted more like Mannu, I don't think Ike would have been all that justified in ignoring Degensea and proceeding anyway (although the reality is also that Ike probably couldn't have won against Goldoa at that point while Marth was able take on Pyrathi).

Ah, but being warned is what takes away any justification if Ike presses on anyway; because he had been made aware of the consequences if he did. If Deghinsea attacked right away for something Ike didn't even do on purpose (once again, arriving at Goldoa was not their intention or even knew they were going to), why is Ike not justified fighting in self-defense  since Deghinsea isn't even telling him why is he attacking?

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On the subject of whether Pyrathi is a criminal nation or not, whilst the Pirates may be there for the sea title advantage, the nation also uses Hunters in place of archers, which FE usually leaves for bandits or "wild" armies.

Personally I think its clear Pyrathi is a nation with a history, but I wouldn't be surprised if they had privateers who sometimes raided near ships and took their cargo, especially to guard the island from unwanted intruders. 

Its too bad there is so little on Pyarthi. We know Ogma was born there and his mother later died there due to some unspecified internal strife

I really wondered what Kaga would've expanded it if he'd included it in Mystery of the Emblem or done his own remake? 

 

1 hour ago, Acacia Sgt said:

He had word in advance Marth was coming this way. If he only bothers to do anything after Marth has entered (which is not certain, as that piece of land isn't confirmed to be part of Pyrathi) and said something is to kill him instead of telling him to leave, then he is to blame.

His anger of them being defilers of the ground falls flat since, if it's because they're humans, then what exempts the humans already there? If it's because they've swore fealty to him... then that just comes as hypocritical, since he's judges who can or can't walk around Pyrathi according to his own whims.

There are national rivalries too. And assuming he is a Dolhrian loyalist or sympathizer, having the heir to Anri the legendary dragon slayer on the ground of the Salamander tribe might've angered him

1 hour ago, Acacia Sgt said:

If you didn't saw my edit, even in the Kaga era there was some sign it was gradual. At least, going from what I see in Xane's dialogue in the Anri's Way chapters, when he says things like "Eventually the Earth Dragons all lost their minds", it indicates it was gradual, and not a sudden thing afterwards.

I hadn't see your edit,  but the point stands that Fates handles degeneation differently then Archanea where age played no role. Still there is reason to assume Manaketes don't commonly degenerate. In TearRing Saga, which was once a Fire Emblem game, a Manake...Emiyu did degenerate, but only after she had been locked into her dragon form and prevented from returning to humanoid form with sealed power.

Also sorry if I came off as snappy, as an Archanea fan, it is a bit of a peeve of mine when people assume that the Manaketes villains in Shadow Dragon are evil because of degeneration.

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10 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

There are national rivalries too. And assuming he is a Dolhrian loyalist or sympathizer, having the heir to Anri the legendary dragon slayer on the ground of the Salamander tribe might've angered him

I hadn't see your edit,  but the point stands that Fates handles degeneation differently then Archanea where age played no role. Still there is reason to assume Manaketes don't commonly degenerate. In TearRing Saga, which was once a Fire Emblem game, a Manake...Emiyu did degenerate, but only after she had been locked into her dragon form and prevented from returning to humanoid form with sealed power.

Also sorry if I came off as snappy, as an Archanea fan, it is a bit of a peeve of mine when people assume that the Manaketes villains in Shadow Dragon are evil because of degeneration.

Not sure on loyalist. Otherwise he'd have joined the war on his side. At least, I think.

I'm aware there is dragon degeneration on Fates too; but I wasn't including them on my points. Well, don't commonly means that it can still happen, just as a rare occurance.

I never implied or assumed he was evil because of degeneration. Only theorized that his actions (which are undeniably hostile and if his answer to people disrupting his isolationism is to kill them, then what it is if not evil?) could be the result of degeneration, which is why there was that debate over if Manaketes, other than Tiki, could loose their minds too.

 

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I just remembered the generic villager in Aurelis who took Bantu's Dragonstone mentions visiting Pyrathi and seeing a old Manakete transform. I wonder if it was Bantu or Mannu himself. Also interesting that an aurelian visited the nation.

Bantu mentions visiting Pyrathi and losing his dragon stone in his recruitment speech. Perhaps Bantu visited the nation on a pilgrimage, that is why I'm thinking?

Just now, Acacia Sgt said:

Not sure on loyalist. Otherwise he'd have joined the war on his side. At least, I think.

I'm aware there is dragon degeneration on Fates too; but I wasn't including them on my points. Well, don't commonly means that it can still happen, just as a rare occurance.

I never implied or assumed he was evil because of degeneration. Only theorized that his actions (which are undeniably hostile and if his answer to people disrupting his isolationism is to kill them, then what it is if not evil?) could be the result of degeneration, which is why there was that debate over if Manaketes, other than Tiki, could loose their minds too.

What makes you sure he isn't on their side. Malladeus seems to assume if Mannu is a Manakete, he'll be an enemy of Marth.

Nothing in Mannu''s dialogue he is in any way close to becoming a feral animal, he speaks quite eloquently and is very to the point. Dragons are consistently protective of their territory.

What actions, do you mean attacking Marth and the Archanean league? If so, most Manaketes and every seen Fire Dragon but Bantu, opposes Marth.

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11 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

What makes you sure he isn't on their side. Malladeus seems to assume if Mannu is a Manakete, he'll be an enemy of Marth.

Nothing in Mannu''s dialogue he is in any way close to becoming a feral animal, he speaks quite eloquently and is very to the point. Dragons are consistently protective of their territory.

What actions, do you mean attacking Marth and the Archanean league? If so, most Manaketes and every seen Fire Dragon but Bantu, opposes Marth.

Well, that's just an assumption Malledus makes. He doesn't know, so he makes a guess.

Like I said, I was theorizing. Why he chose to attack instead of simply telling Marth off? I found it strange he'd go straight to ordering to attack, as if he didn't think it through every option he had available. If degeneration is gradual, then it could be a sign something's amiss that could explain it. Though, again, just theorizing.

Yeah. He didn't had to; but he did. The thing about other Manaketes is that they are Dohlians who serve Medeus, so their opposition is tied to that. Mannu isn't affiliated with them.

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Just now, Acacia Sgt said:

Well, that's just an assumption Malledus makes. He doesn't know, so he makes a guess.

Like I said, I was theorizing. Why he chose to attack instead of simply telling Marth off? I found it strange he'd go straight to ordering to attack, as if he didn't think it through every option he had available. If degeneration is gradual, then it could be a sign something's amiss. Though, again, just theorizing.

Yeah. He didn't had to; but he did. The thing about other Manaketes is that they are Dohlians who serve Medeus, so their opposition is tied to that. Mannu isn't affiliated with them.

Nothing contradicts it and Mannu's obvious pride over being a dragon as well as his use of a derogative towards a human fits in with the Dolhr's world view that they were there for first and humans should respect their betters.

  • Foolhardy humans, defying a Manakete king! Tremble now, and feel the last quickening of your heart!  
  • What...? Slain, by this fangless coward and his minions?  

As mentioned, Marth is the descendant of Anri, the man who toppled the Manaketes and sent them back to the bad lands, and is currently on land important to the Salamander tribe. He has every reason to be opposed to Marth.

What makes you so sure Mannu isn't affiliated with them? Given his dragon pride, why wouldn't he not support them? 

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7 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Nothing contradicts it and Mannu's obvious pride over being a dragon as well as his use of a derogative towards a human fits in with the Dolhr's world view that they were there for first and humans should respect their betters.

  • Foolhardy humans, defying a Manakete king! Tremble now, and feel the last quickening of your heart!  
  • What...? Slain, by this fangless coward and his minions?  

As mentioned, Marth is the descendant of Anri, the man who toppled the Manaketes and sent them back to the bad lands, and is currently on land important to the Salamander tribe. He has every reason to be opposed to Marth.

What makes you so sure Mannu isn't affiliated with them? Given his dragon pride, why wouldn't he not support them? 

The thing is, it was due to stepping foot on Pyrathi that Mannu attacks them, not for being humans, which is what Malledus feared. His guess was only half-right.

As I mentioned to Jotari, then why wait until Marth is actually at his door? If he doesn't want him there, why not tell him so, than to complain that he's doing the very thing he didn't tell him not to do? Not sure on the Anri connection. He'd have brought that up if it was really relevant.

If he was, then why remain neutral and isolated? It sounds like Mannu doesn't want to get involved with the outside world, regardless of what it is. Not every Manakete supports Medeus. Even Xane, who has much disdain over humans, doesn't side with him. Why can't Mannu be similar?

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for all intents and purposes ch9 of shadow dragon is effectively filler. However, if we are to consider the actual moral implications and justification of landing at pyrathi, then the context of why the land there at all is important.

Malledus:
“Sire, it’s too dangerous to stay here. We must flee to Pyrathi. There are risks there, too- the Pyrathi king Mannu is said to be a descendant of the dragonkin, a Manakete. Still, we’ve no other recourse. We’ll just have to take our chances… Keep your wits about you, sire.”

from this we can glean that traveling to pyrathi is a move of desperation because of the dangers present at pyrathi, implying a history of agression. Malledus cites the danger as mannu being a manakete, which isnt unfounded given dolhr is running around making extensive use of dragons and being ruled by an evil dragon, but we can also assume that pyrathi has a tendency to attack people who try to travel to it given its isolationist nature. Now if we assume, given marths general character and the context of needing to flee to pyrathi for safety, that marth and his motly army (its small enough at this point that a large contingent of grust soldiers requires them to flee) only intended to seek refuge in pyrathi, Mannu attacking a fleeing army looking for refuge is clearly an aggressive move, especially when the option to simply turn them away is fully open to him. he doesnt have to take them in yes, but if he wishes to maintain his kingdoms isolation then he could simply bar them from the country which would be easier for him then picking a fight.

like, if we ever get another shadow dragon remake (which i want with all my heart) this part clearly needs either more elaboration or to simply be cut, but given the actual context behind the action its primarily mannu thats picking a fight that he doesnt have to. marth fighting back isnt unreasonable in that situation, though killing the king and effectively taking over the island is going rather overboard as a response. But then, the actual size of pyrathi is kinda vague. He could be taking over an island nation, he could just be taking over what is effectively a city state.

still, id hardly call it an ivasion when its more so marth stumbling into a fight he probably doesnt want once again, which is kind of his thing tbh.

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1 hour ago, Emperor Hardin said:

On the subject of whether Pyrathi is a criminal nation or not, whilst the Pirates may be there for the sea title advantage, the nation also uses Hunters in place of archers, which FE usually leaves for bandits or "wild" armies.

Personally I think its clear Pyrathi is a nation with a history, but I wouldn't be surprised if they had privateers who sometimes raided near ships and took their cargo, especially to guard the island from unwanted intruders. 

Its too bad there is so little on Pyarthi. We know Ogma was born there and his mother later died there due to some unspecified internal strife

I really wondered what Kaga would've expanded it if he'd included it in Mystery of the Emblem or done his own remake? 

 

There are national rivalries too. And assuming he is a Dolhrian loyalist or sympathizer, having the heir to Anri the legendary dragon slayer on the ground of the Salamander tribe might've angered him

I hadn't see your edit,  but the point stands that Fates handles degeneation differently then Archanea where age played no role. Still there is reason to assume Manaketes don't commonly degenerate. In TearRing Saga, which was once a Fire Emblem game, a Manake...Emiyu did degenerate, but only after she had been locked into her dragon form and prevented from returning to humanoid form with sealed power.

Also sorry if I came off as snappy, as an Archanea fan, it is a bit of a peeve of mine when people assume that the Manaketes villains in Shadow Dragon are evil because of degeneration.

I think it's pretty clear to me how bare bones Pyrathi is that the reason for its existence was to introduce enemy Manaketes without having you directly fight Doluna Manaketes too early. Mannu's existence is for gameplay hype than plot integration.

Oh wow kudos for the link. Ogma being from Pyrathi is really interesting. I could see him popping up as a unit to explain the country a bit better in an expansion.

51 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

disrupting his isolationism is to kill them, then what it is if not evil?

 

Try crossing an international border after being refused entry sometime and see what happens! Especially if you're clearly armed and there's a few hundred of you.

 

Edited by Jotari
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6 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Try crossing an international border after being refused entry sometime and see what happens! Especially if you're clearly armed and there's a few hundred of you.

 

*Sigh* How many times are we doing this? Marth was not refused entry! It would be one thing if Marth was told to not come, then did so anyway. He wasn't told, however; and there's still the matter if Marth had even set foot or not in Pyrathi when Mannu declared his intent to kill him.

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17 minutes ago, NobodiePichu said:

for all intents and purposes ch9 of shadow dragon is effectively filler. However, if we are to consider the actual moral implications and justification of landing at pyrathi, then the context of why the land there at all is important.

Malledus:
“Sire, it’s too dangerous to stay here. We must flee to Pyrathi. There are risks there, too- the Pyrathi king Mannu is said to be a descendant of the dragonkin, a Manakete. Still, we’ve no other recourse. We’ll just have to take our chances… Keep your wits about you, sire.”

from this we can glean that traveling to pyrathi is a move of desperation because of the dangers present at pyrathi, implying a history of agression. Malledus cites the danger as mannu being a manakete, which isnt unfounded given dolhr is running around making extensive use of dragons and being ruled by an evil dragon, but we can also assume that pyrathi has a tendency to attack people who try to travel to it given its isolationist nature. Now if we assume, given marths general character and the context of needing to flee to pyrathi for safety, that marth and his motly army (its small enough at this point that a large contingent of grust soldiers requires them to flee) only intended to seek refuge in pyrathi, Mannu attacking a fleeing army looking for refuge is clearly an aggressive move, especially when the option to simply turn them away is fully open to him. he doesnt have to take them in yes, but if he wishes to maintain his kingdoms isolation then he could simply bar them from the country which would be easier for him then picking a fight.

like, if we ever get another shadow dragon remake (which i want with all my heart) this part clearly needs either more elaboration or to simply be cut, but given the actual context behind the action its primarily mannu thats picking a fight that he doesnt have to. marth fighting back isnt unreasonable in that situation, though killing the king and effectively taking over the island is going rather overboard as a response. But then, the actual size of pyrathi is kinda vague. He could be taking over an island nation, he could just be taking over what is effectively a city state.

still, id hardly call it an ivasion when its more so marth stumbling into a fight he probably doesnt want once again, which is kind of his thing tbh.

He's not attacking a fleeing army. He's attacking an army that's fleeing at him. He isn't going out of his ways to pursue Marth. Mannu has to pick the fight because Marth's in his land (well he could let Marth pass through unhindered, but his political and religious alignment means he won't do that).

6 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

*Sigh* How many times are we doing this? Marth was not refused entry! It would be one thing if Marth was told to not come, then did so anyway. He wasn't told, however; and there's still the matter if Marth had even set foot or not in Pyrathi when Mannu declared his intent to kill him.

Yes, we've been over it. And I've shown how I'm of the opinion that Marth either A) Asked for assylum and was refused or B) Didn't ask and brought an army in unannounced. Those are the two options the text supports in my view. You cannot say for fact that your belief that Marth asked and patiently waited only to receive hostility before entering. That is not something the game suggests.

One way or the other I think it's clear that Marth was refused entry. With pointy swords. And even if it was a case where he was accosted at the border he still chose to move deeper into Pyrathi territory where he was met with more resistance. And all this was the reaction Malladues expected from a famously isolationist state.

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1 minute ago, Jotari said:

Yes, we've been over it. And I've shown how I'm of the opinion that Marth either A) Asked for assylum and was refused or B) Didn't ask and brought an army in unannounced. Those are the two options the text supports in my view. You cannot say for fact that your belief that Marth asked and patiently waited only to receive hostility before entering. That is not something the game suggests.

One way or the other I think it's clear that Marth was refused entry. With pointy swords. And even if it was a case where he was accosted at the border he still chose to move deeper into Pyrathi territory where he was met with more resistance. And all this was the reaction Malladues expected from a famously isolationist state.

Neither it says Marth was refused asylum, or that he didn't ask, so you cannot say for fact your beliefs either.

If we take the game chapter at face value, then there were no Pyrathi soldiers whatsoever near the bridge leading to the island. The game thus fails to suggest of any encounter at the border.

Also, you didn't addressed about Jeorge's dialogue implying Mannu had ample time to simply tell Marth to not come.

Anyway, it's already too late over here. I forgot PDT begins tonight so it's even much later than I thought. If you wish, we can continue this in the morning.

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16 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Neither it says Marth was refused asylum, or that he didn't ask, so you cannot say for fact your beliefs either.

If we take the game chapter at face value, then there were no Pyrathi soldiers whatsoever near the bridge leading to the island. The game thus fails to suggest of any encounter at the border.

Also, you didn't addressed about Jeorge's dialogue implying Mannu had ample time to simply tell Marth to not come.

Anyway, it's already too late over here. I forgot PDT begins tonight so it's even much later than I thought. If you wish, we can continue this in the morning.

Yes, and I don't assume anything to be true. I assume one of two possibilities to be true, neither of which reflects well on Marth's actions. If we go in with zero assumptions then what is directly happening in the game is that Marth enters Pyrathi, Mannu sees this and curses them as heretics for trespassing and then launches an attack with no communication from either side. Assuming there is communication isn't unwarranted for a game like this, but it's a bit of an all or nothing deals as if you assume communication on one end but not the other then youre inventing a scenario.

Tldr, you say Marth was never refused entry, show me something to prove he requested entry. Assume he requested and Mannu responded with an attack, why assume communication on one side and not the other?

As for Jorge I brought him up the first time you mentioned him.

3 hours ago, Jotari said:

I don't think Jeorge has been there very long given how he went there specifically to meet up with Marth. And even with him there it's so vague we don't know what the situation is. Either Mannu is willing to let solitary refugees in or Jorge simply got in without Mannu noticing (or possibly even got in after Marth had already breached the border). No indication either way.

And regardless of Jeorge we have the narration saying Marth's visit was unannounced and pissed Mannu off.

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59 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

The thing is, it was due to stepping foot on Pyrathi that Mannu attacks them, not for being humans, which is what Malledus feared. His guess was only half-right.

Well it says: Mannu, was wroth when he heard of the League's unexpected visit.

Specifically mentioning the league like that could definitely mean that he was angry that it was them being the Archanean league that angered him.

59 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Not sure on the Anri connection. He'd have brought that up if it was really relevant.

Given it was left out of FE3 that is probably a major reason. The NES didn't have as much room for text.

59 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

If he was, then why remain neutral and isolated? It sounds like Mannu doesn't want to get involved with the outside world, regardless of what it is. Not every Manakete supports Medeus. Even Xane, who has much disdain over humans, doesn't side with him. Why can't Mannu be similar?

You don't have to actively involve your soil in a war to be supporting one side. For all we know Mannu could've been seen supplying weapons and resources to Dolhr.

Whilst Xane has negative feelings towards humans, he isn't actively aggressive towards them as Mannu is to those who don't work for him. It is possible for Mannu to be unaffiliated to Dolhr entirely, but that isn't the impression I get.

59 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

I think it's pretty clear to me how bare bones Pyrathi is that the reason for its existence was to introduce enemy Manaketes without having you directly fight Doluna Manaketes too early. Mannu's existence is for gameplay hype than plot integration.

Oh wow kudos for the link. Ogma being from Pyrathi is really interesting. I could see him popping up as a unit to explain the country a bit better in an expansion

Whilst that is the Doylist reason, your thoughts on Pyrathi's culture and Manny's motivations.

No problem at all. Some of these interviews are so hard to find. I still want a proper translation of the Aurelis history posted on this site.

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42 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

 

 

42 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

 

Whilst that is the Doylist reason, your thoughts on Pyrathi's culture and Manny's motivations.

 

Is that a question? Well as I think I made clear I'm under the impression Pyrathi is an isolationist country and Marth felt it justified to violate their neutrality based in his own need.

Just general view of culture it's of course all vague but the fact that you brought up how that one villager had said they visited Pyrathi and possibly Jorge's presence makes it seem like they do allow some selected individuals to enter. Probably because it is of great historical importance to the continent. Could be a bit like North Korea where that one villager paid a large amount of gold to visit the country and examine the ruins and Mannu himself personally over saw it.

From what characterization we can get of Mannu the spiritual importance of the country is paramount to him and that his view of humans is dim. But there's still a tonne of humans living in his land (unless they're all Gotoh style throw away the weapons Manakete) which he has to tolerate. The narration suggests it's been isolationist for a long time now so I don't think he's on Medeus's side per se. Probably more he doesn't care what happens outside Pyrathi so sees no need to support Medeus while Medeus sees a country that is already running itself based on his ideals.

What is sort of strange is that we see only on Manakete there. Though that could be gameplay story segregation. It certainly has a lot of potential as a place that Archanea has sadly glossed over. 

Edited by Jotari
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10 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Just general view of culture it's of course all vague but the fact that you brought up how that one villager had said they visited Pyrathi and possibly Jorge's presence makes it seem like they do allow some selected individuals to enter. Probably because it is of great historical importance to the continent. Could be a bit like North Korea where that one villager paid a large amount of gold to visit the country and examine the ruins and Mannu himself personally over saw it.

That is why I imagine as well. People can visit Pyrathi, but it is very selective.

10 minutes ago, Jotari said:

From what characterization we can get of Mannu the spiritual importance of the country is paramount to him and that his view of humans is dim. But there's still a tonne of humans living in his land (unless they're all Gotoh style throw away the weapons Manakete) which he has to tolerate.

I think Mannu is good with humans who show manaketes "proper respect" and most of the people on the island are indeed humans. However they may be culturally very different from the humans in Archanea, possibly similar to the humans in Dolhr in their veneration of Manaketes.

Just general view of culture it's of course all vague but the fact that you brought up how that one villager had said they visited Pyrathi and possibly Jorge's presence makes it seem like they do allow some selected individuals to enter. Probably because it is of great historical importance to the continent. Could be a bit like North Korea where that one villager paid a large amount of gold to visit the country and examine the ruins and Mannu himself personally over saw it.

Besides my impression that he supports Medeus and Dolhr, mostly through supplies, I imagine Mannu could've been a keeper of an important location to the fire tribe. Overtime people came or lived there all along, and Mannu allowed them to live there after culturally influencing them to his liking and basically ensuring they adhere to Fire Dragon customs.

10 minutes ago, Jotari said:

What is sort of strange is that we see only on Manakete there. Though that could be gameplay story segregation. It certainly has a lot of potential as a place that Archanea has sadly glossed over. 

There could easily be more, I don't think Marth/the player fought the whole nation in game. And agreed on that bit, makes me sad we never got that planned sequel.

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1 hour ago, Emperor Hardin said:

That is why I imagine as well. People can visit Pyrathi, but it is very selective.

I think Mannu is good with humans who show manaketes "proper respect" and most of the people on the island are indeed humans. However they may be culturally very different from the humans in Archanea, possibly similar to the humans in Dolhr in their veneration of Manaketes.

Just general view of culture it's of course all vague but the fact that you brought up how that one villager had said they visited Pyrathi and possibly Jorge's presence makes it seem like they do allow some selected individuals to enter. Probably because it is of great historical importance to the continent. Could be a bit like North Korea where that one villager paid a large amount of gold to visit the country and examine the ruins and Mannu himself personally over saw it.

Besides my impression that he supports Medeus and Dolhr, mostly through supplies, I imagine Mannu could've been a keeper of an important location to the fire tribe. Overtime people came or lived there all along, and Mannu allowed them to live there after culturally influencing them to his liking and basically ensuring they adhere to Fire Dragon customs.

There could easily be more, I don't think Marth/the player fought the whole nation in game. And agreed on that bit, makes me sad we never got that planned sequel.

Oh and as someone else already mentioned you do get a wyrmslayer from one of the villages suggesting that there could be dissent among the population.

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9 hours ago, Jotari said:

Tiki aside Manaketes have no predelection towards madness. And even if we disagree with Manny's isolationist neutral policies, he still has the right to have them. If Marth makes a habit of just ignoring the rights of every kingdom he doesn't agree with (or every one with a dragon in charge) then he's no better than Medeus.

Huh? You mentioned Medeus, but his whole backstory was being the only Earth Dragon to retain his sanity, while all those around him went berserk. Mannu is likely at risk of the same deterioration, although we can't say for sure.

Anyway, you're right. I guess Mannu was correct in referring to "the League of A's" as "Interlopers! Barbarous filth!". It's not clear why they couldn't just choke the point on the last map. Especially if they got Roger, he'll do it for love. Strange that it's a safer strategy for Marth to invade another kingdom with hordes of enemies at his back.

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Yeah, in full agreement with Jotari here.

Marth was absolutely in the wrong in this case. Either he asked for passage and got a fat no (either by way of written or sword) and still pushed through, or he didn't and compromised the borders of an identified sovereign nation with no notice. No matter how you slice it, Marth was inviting aggression against himself, Mannu is not in the wrong for defending his borders from a foreign army attempting to occupy his lands with a BIGGER foreign army behind chasing them.

If an army from a land you're explicitly not allied with comes marching toward your borders, even if they're fleeing from someone, you are not going to take kindly to that. You don't know their intentions. Maybe Marth didn't mean to take over Pyrathi but his intent in this doesn't really matter. He did. It being because he was fleeing doesn't matter.

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Honestly, if I recall, didn't something similar happen in the Tellius series? Ike and the Laguz Alliance were forced to go through a volcano and then when they made it through, it ended up at Goldoa, and Dheginsea ordered them to go back the way they came in, which Ike and the others refused to do. 

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10 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Honestly, if I recall, didn't something similar happen in the Tellius series? Ike and the Laguz Alliance were forced to go through a volcano and then when they made it through, it ended up at Goldoa, and Dheginsea ordered them to go back the way they came in, which Ike and the others refused to do. 

If I recall correctly, Kurthnaga, Nasir and Ena were there, who all liked Ike and .Co and they were only allowed to pass through because they pleaded for them. Not sure, though.

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At least Deghinsea actually bothered to tell them "You're trespassing, go back from where you came from or we will attack you".

Another similar situation happened in Binding Blade. The Etrurian Government already gave permission to Roy and the Lycian Alliance Army to wander around the Western Isles as part of their request to stamp out bandits and the like. DEspite so, Roy still sends a messenger requesting a local garrison for permission of passage to Mt. Ebrakhim. What does the garrison captain does? Kills the messenger and then sends soldiers to attack Roy and company. IT's true he was under orders from Roartz and Arcado to frame and or eliminate the Lycian Army for Bern's benefit; but it shows there was one-sided communication, as Roy did went through the proper protocol.

8 hours ago, Jotari said:

Yes, and I don't assume anything to be true. I assume one of two possibilities to be true, neither of which reflects well on Marth's actions. If we go in with zero assumptions then what is directly happening in the game is that Marth enters Pyrathi, Mannu sees this and curses them as heretics for trespassing and then launches an attack with no communication from either side. Assuming there is communication isn't unwarranted for a game like this, but it's a bit of an all or nothing deals as if you assume communication on one end but not the other then youre inventing a scenario.

Tldr, you say Marth was never refused entry, show me something to prove he requested entry. Assume he requested and Mannu responded with an attack, why assume communication on one side and not the other?

Once again, we don't know exactly if Marth was in Pyrathi proper when Mannu made his statement. Unlike us, they can't see the entire area the chapter maps depict. So unless Mannu has a window and his eyesight and/or the distance permits him to see the entry bridge, then he's the one making an assumption that they're already stepping on Pyrathi soil.

Well, it's no different from you inventing the scenario that Marth is coming to Pyrathi with the intent to invade or he decided that "screw you, I'm attacking you". Ch8 clearly shows Marth never went to Pyrathi with that intention.

If I could, would you likewise do the same for your statements that he was denied entry?

8 hours ago, Jotari said:

And regardless of Jeorge we have the narration saying Marth's visit was unannounced and pissed Mannu off.

The narration says it was unexpected, not that it was unannounced. Malledus only decides to go as a spur of the moment thing. If Mannu has bothered to be informed about the war to be prepared to do something if it comes to it, then any last report to him about Marth would be that he was at Warren. Malledus was also the one who decided that the League should head to the castle in the island northeast of Warren.

Heck, maybe this aided in how Mannu knows. He heard the League advanced to the castle, so he's inferring Marth will keep advancing east, into Pyrathi. It's just conjecture of course.

In any case, for Mannu to know while in his castle, someone had to have to delivered the message that Marth was coming with ample time if he only speaks when Marth is barely on the bridge that leads to the main Pyrathi island. This is where the text makes it impossible to know which was. Which brings to my conjectures. If it was a League messenger, then why Mannu didn't simply replied back with a negative? If it was local Pyrathians who saw the League coming, then why THEY didn't warned Marth first that Mannu may not like them coming his way? Ultimately, this is something only a remake may give us the answer to.

8 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Well it says: Mannu, was wroth when he heard of the League's unexpected visit.

Specifically mentioning the league like that could definitely mean that he was angry that it was them being the Archanean league that angered him.

To be fair, that line is open for interpretation. If he angry at the LEague's mention, angry at the 'unexpected visit' mention, or at both? Who knows.

8 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Given it was left out of FE3 that is probably a major reason. The NES didn't have as much room for text.

Hm? How is Pyrathi being cut from Mystery an indication that Marth's ancestry had anything to do with Mannu's ire?

8 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

You don't have to actively involve your soil in a war to be supporting one side. For all we know Mannu could've been seen supplying weapons and resources to Dolhr.

Whilst Xane has negative feelings towards humans, he isn't actively aggressive towards them as Mannu is to those who don't work for him. It is possible for Mannu to be unaffiliated to Dolhr entirely, but that isn't the impression I get.

Except we are told Pyrathi is isolationist. That means they wouldn't even be supporting either side passively, as sending resources would be such. They'd be helping no one, hindering no one.

The fact he prefers to be cut off from the rest of the world is not a sign he's unaffiliated Dohl, let alone anyone else at all?

Edited by Acacia Sgt
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There is one extreme problem with the term used here. You say that Marth "invaded", but the term only works if Marth subjugated and occupied the territory. Marths' army left the territory after the battle. It didn't occupy. And the "subjugation" was a result of self-defense. 

Now, had Marth actually annexed the land, then yes, it is invasion overall, even if it was self-defense. 

But because Marth left and did not occupy or make any indication of annexing it, then you can't call it an invasion. 

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