Marth's unjustified invasion

[Jotari]

All this talk of expanding the plot has made me think Chapter 8 could have benefited from a Camus appearance. Grust are the ones pushing Marth back, have Mr Grust himself show up. That justifies and gives a bit more highlight to Marth's falling back. Hell even have Camus take to the field with Gradivus at a point where the player has no realistic chance of beating him and make a full on escape map. I think ideally it was designed as a proto escape map with all the reinforcements, but in practice the player probably blocks the forts off or child points the enemies and let Marth walk right up to the castle.

[Emperor Hardin]

16 hours ago, Jotari said:

All this talk of expanding the plot has made me think Chapter 8 could have benefited from a Camus appearance. Grust are the ones pushing Marth back, have Mr Grust himself show up. That justifies and gives a bit more highlight to Marth's falling back. Hell even have Camus take to the field with Gradivus at a point where the player has no realistic chance of beating him and make a full on escape map. I think ideally it was designed as a proto escape map with all the reinforcements, but in practice the player probably blocks the forts off or child points the enemies and let Marth walk right up to the castle.

I think the Sable Order might've been under the interim leader, Sternlin, but then again the dialogue is vague enough.

Marth:
“You must mean General Camus. I am told Doluna is not very happy with him at the moment, brilliant or not. Something about acting outside orders… They’ll be keeping him on a short leash; I don’t expect we’ll see him here.”

Its possible for Dolhr to allow Camus to appear in chapter 8, provided he's kept under orders.

Also @vanguard333, I just remembered Anri's brother, Marcelus and Gra's mysterious founder could be in the Anri game, the latter could be Anri's cousin.

[vanguard333]

49 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Also @vanguard333, I just remembered Anri's brother, Marcelus and Gra's mysterious founder could be in the Anri game, the latter could be Anri's cousin.

Eh; not everyone has to be related to each other. But Gra's mysterious founder could be interesting. If I were making the game, I would have a number of different new additions (since there are only so many that have already been named; I'd have to fill the roster with new characters), and the player wouldn't know which one was the founder of Gra until they saw the different character endings, and for one of the original characters, it would state that the character founded a land that their son would rename the Kingdom of Gra. 

[Emperor Hardin]

27 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

Eh; not everyone has to be related to each other. But Gra's mysterious founder could be interesting. If I were making the game, I would have a number of different new additions (since there are only so many that have already been named; I'd have to fill the roster with new characters), and the player wouldn't know which one was the founder of Gra until they saw the different character endings, and for one of the original characters, it would state that the character founded a land that their son would rename the Kingdom of Gra. 

I'd definitely add new characters to this game, but for Gra's founder, a reason I'd make it Anri's cousin relates to the history of Gra. Its said when Anri died, his brother Marcelus was so unpopular as a ruler, that a large amount of the country seceded from Altea and became Gra. I was thinking a cousin would work, though a best friend or great ally could be interesting too.

In a contrast to their descendants, I'd depict the founder of Gra as more competent then Marcelus.

As for classes of the legendary heroes, keep in mind they have unique ones but these are what they'd have as a base.

• Cartas: Paladin of some sort.
• Iote: DracoKnight obviously.
• Ordwin the General: General, another obvious one. 
• Marcelus: Horseman perhaps, if he learned it from the plains folk?
• Artemis: Bishop.

I'd like to thrown in a axe fighter from the islands that eventually became the Kingdom of Talys as well

[Acacia Sgt]

If Gra's founder was related to Anri and Marcellus, it's more likely it'd be a conflict of succession, not secession.

Not sure of actually having a big Grustian force and Camus himself legitimizing the Pyrathi decision. Or how else could Marth make it to Dale and then Knorda and the Millennium Court? He left Pyrathi by land. Well, bridge crossing; but then walking through the Archanean countryside to Dale. The Grustian big force is recalled? Camus does something that defies Medeus' orders again?

Edited March 10, 2020 by Acacia Sgt

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, Emperor Hardin said:

I think the Sable Order might've been under the interim leader, Sternlin, but then again the dialogue is vague enough.

Marth:
“You must mean General Camus. I am told Doluna is not very happy with him at the moment, brilliant or not. Something about acting outside orders… They’ll be keeping him on a short leash; I don’t expect we’ll see him here.”

Its possible for Dolhr to allow Camus to appear in chapter 8, provided he's kept under orders.

Also @vanguard333, I just remembered Anri's brother, Marcelus and Gra's mysterious founder could be in the Anri game, the latter could be Anri's cousin.

He definitely had a short lesh, but destroying the league after they've just liberated Aureles seems a decent thing to put his skills to work on. Minerva and the white wings were on a tight leash at this time too and still appear in this portion of the game (and Camus also somehow had enough freedom to appear in Gra while Marth was attacking it and actually help Marth rather than fight him). Maybe to show Camus is under supervision by Doluna they could have Manakete deploy alongside him. Maybe Xemcel, the Manakete who guards Medeus's keep. It'd be nice if the penultimate boss of the game was someone who showed up a few times and had an actual character rather than being random Manakete number 7.

(And while I bring up Xemcel, his design even in Shadow Dragon is very similar to Mannu's. Mannu needs a more distinctive, regal design. He's the only non friendly Manakete free from Medeus's control, deserves to be more than yet another old guy with a hood). 

[Emperor Hardin]

57 minutes ago, Jotari said:

He definitely had a short lesh, but destroying the league after they've just liberated Aureles seems a decent thing to put his skills to work on. Minerva and the white wings were on a tight leash at this time too and still appear in this portion of the game (and Camus also somehow had enough freedom to appear in Gra while Marth was attacking it and actually help Marth rather than fight him). Maybe to show Camus is under supervision by Doluna they could have Manakete deploy alongside him. Maybe Xemcel, the Manakete who guards Medeus's keep. It'd be nice if the penultimate boss of the game was someone who showed up a few times and had an actual character rather than being random Manakete number 7.

(And while I bring up Xemcel, his design even in Shadow Dragon is very similar to Mannu's. Mannu needs a more distinctive, regal design. He's the only non friendly Manakete free from Medeus's control, deserves to be more than yet another old guy with a hood). 

Fair enough.

A crown and royal robe could work for Mannu. Xemcel is also memorable given his role as Medeus's guardian and ability to break dragonstone rules.

1 hour ago, Acacia Sgt said:

If Gra's founder was related to Anri and Marcellus, it's more likely it'd be a conflict of succession, not secession.

For reference, literally half of Altea left the Kingdom and became Gra because they refused to acknowledge Marcelus as Anri's heir. With this in mind, I think a charismatic opposing candidate with some connection to Anri makes sense.

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Fair enough.

A crown and royal robe could work for Mannu. Xemcel is also memorable given his role as Medeus's guardian and ability to break dragonstone rules.

For reference, literally half of Altea left the Kingdom and became Gra because they refused to acknowledge Marcelus as Anri's heir. With this in mind, I think a charismatic opposing candidate with some connection to Anri makes sense.

Why dragonstone rules does Xemcel break?

[Emperor Hardin]

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

Why dragonstone rules does Xemcel break?

Xemcel receives significantly higher stats from his magestone:

1. Normally a user of a Magestone gets only +1 skill but Xemcel receives +5 skill putting his skill stat at 25.
2. Most notably a Magestone takes away -1 point of speed, making Mage Dragons very slow. Xemcel breaks the rules by gaining +4. Giving him 24 speed and making it so only max stats Snipers, Bersekers, Horseman, Thieves and Swordmasters can double him.

This is possible only through Xemcel internally having personal higher stats in the Mage Dragon class used to determine transformation stats. Lorewise as Medeus's close guardian, he probably isn't an ordinary manakete either.

[Jotari]

2 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Xemcel receives significantly higher stats from his magestone:

1. Normally a user of a Magestone gets only +1 skill but Xemcel receives +5 skill putting his skill stat at 25.
2. Most notably a Magestone takes away -1 point of speed, making Mage Dragons very slow. Xemcel breaks the rules by gaining +4. Giving him 24 speed and making it so only max stats Snipers, Bersekers, Horseman, Thieves and Swordmasters can double him.

This is possible only through Xemcel internally having personal higher stats in the Mage Dragon class used to determine transformation stats. Lorewise as Medeus's close guardian, he probably isn't an ordinary manakete either.

Ah...can't say I noticed at all as my that point most of my units in active use were rocking max stats in everything.

[Emperor Hardin]

57 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Ah...can't say I noticed at all as my that point most of my units in active use were rocking max stats in everything.

That and Xemcel is 1 ranged locked, unfortunately.

[Jotari]

I whipped out my old Archanea combine map I made a while back to check out if the position of Port Warren is in relation to how we established Pyrathi to be in this map.

And I found I'd put Port Warren far fruther north than Pyrathi. Which I found surprising since after everything we discussed it seemed pretty solid that the island in Pyrathi was meant to be the same one you end on in Port Warren. So I quickly found a video of Chapter 9's opening.

And it shows Marth quite clearly coming to Pyrathi by sea from the North West. And it's not even a case of maybe that happened in the previous chapter during gameplay as you very pointedly travel north in Chapter 8 with a sea border on your right. So we have two possibilities here, either 1, they sailed to Pyrathi (major brownie points lost for Marth and major sense points lost for Malladas given Tayls is right there, like literally you can see it in that image), or 2, the Shadow Dragon map makes just went and fucked up. Looking deeper it seems the answer is 2, as this is what Archanea's original NES map looks like

Now I can't read the Japanese names, but just knowing the map layouts it looks very clear that Chapter 8 leads directly into Chapter 9. The hilarious thing is that this map can no longer be called canon, the Fire Emblem 3 map which Shadow Dragon used is the codified incarnation of Archnea now, but Pyrathi doesn't exist in that leading Shadow Dragon and its error as the only legitimate source for Marth's trip, and it's plainly wrong!

Oh wow, just check Mystery of the Emblem and it has Port Warren in the south too. Shadow Dragon really messed up on that one. I wonder if there are any other mistakes on the map layout. Marth's invasion of Pyrathi is dubious to begin with, but messing up like that turns him into an aggressive warlord XD

If no one replies to this I'm going to dedicate an entire thread to how Port Warren has been placed in the wrong location because I find it hilarious.

Edited April 9, 2020 by Jotari

[Acacia Sgt]

Hey, whaddayaknow, the seize point of Ch8 is the same land point Marth's group starting point of Ch9 is... as well as still being part of Archanea. So King Mannu did ordered for Marth to die when he had yet to step in Pyrathi proper.

15 minutes ago, Jotari said:

And it shows Marth quite clearly coming to Pyrathi by sea from the North West. And it's not even a case of maybe that happened in the previous chapter during gameplay as you very pointedly travel north in Chapter 8 with a sea border on your right. So we have two possibilities here, either 1, they sailed to Pyrathi (major brownie points lost for Marth and major sense points lost for Malladas given Tayls is right there, like literally you can see it in that image), or 2, the Shadow Dragon map makes just went and fucked up. Looking deeper it seems the answer is 2, as this is what Archanea's original NES map looks like

Now I can't read the Japanese names, but just knowing the map layouts it looks very clear that Chapter 8 leads directly into Chapter 9. The hilarious thing is that this map can no longer be called canon, the Fire Emblem 3 map which Shadow Dragon used is the codified incarnation of Archnea now, but Pyrathi doesn't exist in that leading Shadow Dragon and its error as the only legitimate source for Marth's trip, and it's plainly wrong!

If no one replies to this I'm going to dedicate an entire thread to how Port Warren has been placed in the wrong location because I find it hilarious.

They did screwed up. Every official map has always placed Warren in the same place. That the game doesn't shows they got it wrong.

They used a map from Mystery of the Emblem?

Because I looked at that map:

And it seems Pyrathis is still labeled over there. Unless that castle in that island off Archanea coast is suddenly now the seize castle, somehow. Very unlikely though, since it has a label that only the other major places do.

Edited April 9, 2020 by Acacia Sgt

[Jotari]

11 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Hey, whaddayaknow, the seize point of Ch8 is the same land point Marth's group starting point of Ch9 is... as well as still being part of Archanea. So King Mannu did ordered for Marth to die when he had yet to step in Pyrathi proper.

They did screwed up. Every official map has always placed Warren in the same place. That the game doesn't shows they got it wrong.

They used a map from Mystery of the Emblem?

Because I looked at that map:

And it seems Pyrathis is still labeled over there. Unless that castle in that island off Archanea coast is suddenly now the seize castle, somehow. Very unlikely though, since it has a label that only the other major places do.

Yeah I checked that too and edited into my post before you posted. Though taking a look at that map again, I think I've discovered something else Shadow Dragon kind of messed up. I think the Mysterious Island I've mentioned before

Might just be that stylistic fish in the bottom right corner of the map. They took an element of a map that was clearly meant to be there for flare and accidentally turned it into a real place. Well, maybe. It first appeared in the anime so perhaps it was them who made the mistake and Shadow Dragon copied them (although maybe it was meant to be a fish in the anime too, it's a bit faded).

[Acacia Sgt]

8 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Might just be that stylistic fish in the bottom right corner of the map. They took an element of a map that was clearly meant to be there for flare and accidentally turned it into a real place. Well, maybe. It first appeared in the anime so perhaps it was them who made the mistake and Shadow Dragon copied them (although maybe it was meant to be a fish in the anime too, it's a bit faded).

I hardly see how could they have made such a mistake. The map of the anime also shows it looks more like an island. Besides, it'd beg the question on why they copied the detail from the anime than previous in-game maps.

Edited April 9, 2020 by Acacia Sgt

[Jotari]

Just now, Acacia Sgt said:

I hardly see how could they have made such a mistake. The map of the anime also shows it looks more like an island. Besides, it'd beg the question on why they copied the detail from the anime than previous in-game maps.

The positioning makes too much sense in my eyes. It's the only real explanation for why the Mysterious Island popped up when it didn't exist in other prior maps. I think it was meant to be a fish in the anime, it has quite a few ships and stylized stuff as well (I got excited for a second and thought the title at the top of the map was actually another continent). When making Shadow Dragon they probably sourced all previous Archanea maps to try and make the most complete one possible and then made the mistake. Either that or they just felt like creating a single distinctive island in the same place as a fish and then do absolutely nothing with it.

The Mysterious Island is a bit off topic from Marth's Pyrathi invasion though. I might consider reopening the topic though because the fish theory makes sense to me and the Mysterious Island is a riddle that's been bothering me for years now.

[Acacia Sgt]

2 minutes ago, Jotari said:

The positioning makes too much sense in my eyes. It's the only real explanation for why the Mysterious Island popped up when it didn't exist in other prior maps. I think it was meant to be a fish in the anime, it has quite a few ships and stylized stuff as well (I got excited for a second and thought the title at the top of the map was actually another continent). When making Shadow Dragon they probably sourced all previous Archanea maps to try and make the most complete one possible and then made the mistake. Either that or they just felt like creating a single distinctive island in the same place as a fish and then do absolutely nothing with it.

The Mysterious Island is a bit off topic from Marth's Pyrathi invasion though. I might consider reopening the topic though because the fish theory makes sense to me and the Mysterious Island is a riddle that's been bothering me for years now.

From the anime map, the thing has little label-like things that are also present on pretty much every coastline. There's two to its west, if you look closely. Then look at every coastline of the map: it has those little lines too. Makes me think it is land.

To be fair, they did stuff like breaking down the little islands next to Talys and Pyrathi into several smaller ones. Although adding one big island is certainly a big change.

Hmm, indeed, good idea.

You know, as an aside, I find a little interesting the prescence of a single Pyrathi pirate in Book 1's Warren. You can see it labeled around 3:30 of the video. It's odd since the Pyrathi chapter was cut, and the pirate doesn't exist in neither the NES original or in Shadow Dragon. So... why is that pirate there? Well, we know, he's a pirate. Though it's interesting to think it might imply Mannu orders, or looks the other way, his men raiding outside his kingdom. Despite his isolationist stance.

[Jotari]

12 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

From the anime map, the thing has little label-like things that are also present on pretty much every coastline. There's two to its west, if you look closely. Then look at every coastline of the map: it has those little lines too. Makes me think it is land.

To be fair, they did stuff like breaking down the little islands next to Talys and Pyrathi into several smaller ones. Although adding one big island is certainly a big change.

Hmm, indeed, good idea.

You know, as an aside, I find a little interesting the prescence of a single Pyrathi pirate in Book 1's Warren. You can see it labeled around 3:30 of the video. It's odd since the Pyrathi chapter was cut, and the pirate doesn't exist in neither the NES original or in Shadow Dragon. So... why is that pirate there? Well, we know, he's a pirate. Though it's interesting to think it might imply Mannu orders, or looks the other way, his men raiding outside his kingdom. Despite his isolationist stance.

In universe we can only speculate, but in terms of design, I'm pretty sure it's there because you can get a Silver Axe by beating it. In fact, I think it even starts to run away not long into the chapter and has to be hunted down by Shiida (I at least remember me needing to do that).

Edited April 9, 2020 by Jotari

[Acacia Sgt]

1 minute ago, Jotari said:

In universe we can only speculate, but in terms of design, I'm pretty sure it's there because you can get a Silver Axe by beating it. In fact, I think it even starts to run away not long into the chapter.

What I mean is, him being there for a drop item is one thing, him being labeled as a Pyrathian is a whole another level. Since the label could've been anything else. To me, it looks too specific to be a mistake or oversight. Although, I do know Book 1 has a few cut content, like data exists for the cut characters (Wrys, Jake, Beck, Roger, and others I may forget about), so if Pyrathi also has cut data, perhaps someone did accidentally put the pirate there by accident. Who knows.

[Jotari]

6 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

What I mean is, him being there for a drop item is one thing, him being labeled as a Pyrathian is a whole another level. Since the label could've been anything else. To me, it looks too specific to be a mistake or oversight. Although, I do know Book 1 has a few cut content, like data exists for the cut characters (Wrys, Jake, Beck, Roger, and others I may forget about), so if Pyrathi also has cut data, perhaps someone did accidentally put the pirate there by accident. Who knows.

It doesn't necessarily have to be cut content. They might have just wanted to reference a chapter they had no intention at all of adapting. I at least haven't seen anything regarding cut Pyrathi content in Mystery of the Emblem while the weird singular Pyrathi enemy has been pointed out in numerous places.

[Emperor Hardin]

54 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

What I mean is, him being there for a drop item is one thing, him being labeled as a Pyrathian is a whole another level. Since the label could've been anything else. To me, it looks too specific to be a mistake or oversight. Although, I do know Book 1 has a few cut content, like data exists for the cut characters (Wrys, Jake, Beck, Roger, and others I may forget about), so if Pyrathi also has cut data, perhaps someone did accidentally put the pirate there by accident. Who knows.

I'm sure that was on purpose and it makes sense for a Pyrathian pirate to appear in Port Warren, a nod to the chapter that was. Other chapters merged material such as Astram appearing in Jiol's chapter as the Ballistician chapter in Gra was cut.

1 hour ago, Acacia Sgt said:

You know, as an aside, I find a little interesting the prescence of a single Pyrathi pirate in Book 1's Warren. You can see it labeled around 3:30 of the video. It's odd since the Pyrathi chapter was cut, and the pirate doesn't exist in neither the NES original or in Shadow Dragon. So... why is that pirate there? Well, we know, he's a pirate. Though it's interesting to think it might imply Mannu orders, or looks the other way, his men raiding outside his kingdom. Despite his isolationist stance.

What makes you so sure he's raiding villages, he could just be scouting the world for Mannu and from what I remember, he mainly stays in the sea. However he is hostile to Marth, so maybe this is more to Pyrathi being sympathetic to Dolhr?

49 minutes ago, Jotari said:

It doesn't necessarily have to be cut content. They might have just wanted to reference a chapter they had no intention at all of adapting. I at least haven't seen anything regarding cut Pyrathi content in Mystery of the Emblem while the weird singular Pyrathi enemy has been pointed out in numerous places.

I think the same and a nod to show they still remember Pyrathi.

On another topic, there is a name in the files labeled "Brave Soldier", I wonder what that was for?