Marth's unjustified invasion

[Jotari]

5 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Duma was banished from Archanea, Mila chose to follow him in exile. I doubt anyone bothered, or even remembered, to go send the message. There were more pressing concerns. Naga maybe foretold things would go bad for dragons, since she did gave them a Kingsfang so any locals in the place they leave to would be able to defend themselves from them. But it's hard to tell if it was "Use in if the dragons that gave you this are going mad" or just a general "Use this if the dragons that gave you this are doing bad things to you".

Maybe. At least, Archanean dragons' dragonstones have almost always been depicted as orbs. Though even then, Divinestones are white, not red, which is what Mila's orb is colored. Divinestones also have criss-crossing rings, also missing from Mila's orb.

Were getting off topic here so I won't follow it up any further than this comment, but assuming Mila and Duma weren't contacted about the whole Manakete thing makes Naga seem incredibly negligible. She was willing to go to Jugdral to help the humans there, so I think it well within her power and motivation to go to what we can assume is the close continent of Valentia to inform Mila and Duma if the situation. We also have to factor in that by the point when these games take place every single non dragon Manakete is completely feral while those two are only partially insane. Once again, not saying they are Manaketes, but for the potential for them to be is there and the game doesn't make it clear either way. There are potential explanations for the discrepancies  taking either potential as true but the descrepencies and potential either way is there.

[Acacia Sgt]

Well, the potential of degeneration on Manaketes was simply a possible explanation for Mannu's hyper-aggressive behavior, when much better options were available for him to preserve the neutrality and isolationism of his kingdom. Since it's clear Marth was not heading for Pyrathi with hostile intentions.

For all we know, he's just that much of a jerk. Or it's simply non-degeneration-related madness. You know, just plain mundane stuff.

Edited March 8, 2020 by Acacia Sgt

[Jotari]

14 minutes ago, Glennstavos said:

The "accusation" was a joke hinging on the fact that dragons don't exist. I'm aware of dragon deterioration as a plot point in fire emblem games, but decided to poke fun anyway. Also "racist" is grammatically correct, if we want to split hairs. Speaking scientifically, race is supposed to refer to species, not ethnicity. It's our real world use of the word "race" in reference to humans that has always been problematic - stemming from a point of history in which we categorized ethnicities into "subspecies" in order to define genetic supremacy. In the 21st century, we focus more on culture than genes. "There must be something wrong with dragons, as they characteristically are not sound of mind" is a racist sentiment, since dragons don't all come from a specific country or lineage. In fact they are confirmed to have multiple tribes and gene pools.

There are many more can of worms we may open from this discussion, or you can accept the joke for what it is.

(I think the speciest comment might have been a joke)

Hey humans and Manaketes can interbreed. Are they a different species at that point? What even is species when you have magical shape shifting dragons mimicking the forms of other creatures?

[Acacia Sgt]

No, it wasn't a joke. His explanation was very interesting, and good to have some clarification on the matter. Though I'd rather not be told such jokes. They're in bad taste, in my opinion.

I'd think division of species is still a thing even if you have shapeshifters. Manakete is a term, not a race/species of its own. They're dragons who became humans.

[eclipse]

Spin this any harder and you might have a future in journalism.

Marth didn't land with the intent to take over.

[Jotari]

39 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Well, the potential of degeneration on Manaketes was simply a possible explanation for Mannu's hyper-aggressive behavior, when much better options were available for him to preserve the neutrality and isolationism of his kingdom. Since it's clear Marth was not heading for Pyrathi with hostile intentions.

For all we know, he's just that much of a jerk. Or it's simply non-degeneration-related madness. You know, just plain mundane stuff.

Well if we look at Mannu's more mundane options, he has a rag tag army running away from the great Doluna alliance. If he shelters them then Medeus will no doubt demand he give them up, and if he doesn't, declare him an enemy of Doluna and invade to finally destroy Marth, Nyna and Hardin. So his options are to help Marth and face the wrath of Medeus, or help Medeus any face the wrath of Marth (at this point in the story a much weaker force). By violating Pyrathi's neutrality Marth is forcing Mannu into the war on one side or the other.

Just now, eclipse said:

Spin this any harder and you might have a future in journalism.

Marth didn't land with the intent to take over.

He still did though. His intent was "I don't care what you say, I'm moving my army through your lands.

[eclipse]

Just now, Jotari said:

He still did though. His intent was "I don't care what you say, I'm moving my army through your lands.

Now let's pretend that Mannu didn't immediately respond with force.  Would Marth have attacked anyway?   Methinks no.  Hence why I said you're spinning this.

[Acacia Sgt]

2 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Well if we look at Mannu's more mundane options, he has a rag tag army running away from the great Doluna alliance. If he shelters them then Medeus will no doubt demand he give them up, and if he doesn't, declare him an enemy of Doluna and invade to finally destroy Marth, Nyna and Hardin. So his options are to help Marth and face the wrath of Medeus, or help Medeus any face the wrath of Marth (at this point in the story a much weaker force). By violating Pyrathi's neutrality Marth is forcing Mannu into the war on one side or the other.

He still did though. His intent was "I don't care what you say, I'm moving my army through your lands.

You're once again ignoring that Mannu also had the option to simply tell Marth: "Don't drag us into this. Don't enter my kingdom or face the consequences!" No need to side with anybody.

Pyrathi is a dead end. Unless he intended to acquire passage on ships (does Pyrathi has ships?), he can't pass through. Ch8 already explained they were fleeing Grust, not invading Pyrathi; and were only defending themselves as Mannu was the aggressor. Why is that so hard for you to understand?

[Emperor Hardin]

56 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Well, the potential of degeneration on Manaketes was simply a possible explanation for Mannu's hyper-aggressive behavior, when much better options were available for him to preserve the neutrality and isolationism of his kingdom. Since it's clear Marth was not heading for Pyrathi with hostile intentions.

For all we know, he's just that much of a jerk. Or it's simply non-degeneration-related madness. You know, just plain mundane stuff.

Mannu's definitely not degenerated, degenerated dragons don't lead armies, rule kingdoms or make military plans in the Kaga era. Notes say Mannu has always been isolationistic. In the NES script, Mannu also mentions sacrificing Marth to the salamander tribe. Tiki was the only Manakete in danger of degeneration and only due to her incredible power.

And again, hating humans outside of their direct followers is very common among Manaketes, especially Fire Dragons. Malladeus also implies Mannu may be a Dolhrian sympathizer.

1 hour ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Duma was banished from Archanea, Mila chose to follow him in exile. I doubt anyone bothered, or even remembered, to go send the message. There were more pressing concerns. Naga maybe foretold things would go bad for dragons, since she did gave them a Kingsfang so any locals in the place they leave to would be able to defend themselves from them. But it's hard to tell if it was "Use in if the dragons that gave you this are going mad" or just a general "Use this if the dragons that gave you this are doing bad things to you".

Maybe. At least, Archanean dragons' dragonstones have almost always been depicted as orbs. Though even then, Divinestones are white, not red, which is what Mila's orb is colored. Divinestones also have criss-crossing rings, also missing from Mila's orb.

Slightly offtopic, but Naga was unusually lenient and irresponsible there, especially as Forseti the Manakete with all his power sealed was stopped from staying on Jugdral to help humans instead of ruling them.

Edited March 8, 2020 by Emperor Hardin

[Acacia Sgt]

4 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Mannu's definitely not degenerated, degenerated dragons don't lead armies, rule kingdoms or make military plans in the Kaga era. Notes say Mannu has always been isolationistic. In the NES script, Mannu also mentions sacrificing Marth to the salamander tribe. Tiki was the only Manakete in danger of degeneration and only due to her incredible power.

And again, hating humans outside of their direct followers is very common among Manaketes, especially Fire Dragons. Malladeus also implies Mannu may be a Dolhrian sympathizer.

Degeneration isn't a flip of the switch thing. It's a gradual process. As shown with Duma and Mila, dragons can be under degeneration but still not loose themselves fully, as it's gradual. Even then, Xane explains in the original Mystery it was gradual.

In that case, no wonder Mannu is angry then. As shown with Jeorge, there can be people not from there around.

Edited March 8, 2020 by Acacia Sgt

[Emperor Hardin]

1 minute ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Degeneration isn't a flip of the switch thing. It's a gradual process. As shown with Duma and Mila, dragons can be under degeneration but still not loose themselves fully, as it's gradual.

In that case, no wonder Mannu is angry then. He rules over an entire human kingdom, despite hating them. As shown with Jeorge, there can be people not from there around.

Degeneration in later titles is handled very differently then how it was originally written and I already mentioned how Naga is written way differently now then how the character was originally envisioned.

Its implied that Pyrathi relates to the Fire Dragon tribe in some way, he calls its Hallowed ground, there are a bunch of weird ruins on the island and the Dragon brethren once ruled the whole world uncontested.

[Jotari]

13 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

You're once again ignoring that Mannu also had the option to simply tell Marth: "Don't drag us into this. Don't enter my kingdom or face the consequences!" No need to side with anybody.

Pyrathi is a dead end. Unless he intended to acquire passage on ships (does Pyrathi has ships?), he can't pass through. Ch8 already explained they were fleeing Grust, not invading Pyrathi; and were only defending themselves as Mannu was the aggressor. Why is that so hard for you to understand?

 

18 minutes ago, eclipse said:

Now let's pretend that Mannu didn't immediately respond with force.  Would Marth have attacked anyway?   Methinks no.  Hence why I said you're spinning this.

Defending his already breached boarders against intrusion I think is a very vocal way of saying you shall not pass. Marth was most definitely fleeing Grust, but his actions show he had no concern as to how Mannu felt about the matter. The appropriate response to meeting with hostility at the border would be to retreat and not penetrate further into the kingdom, overthrowing the king.

9 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Degeneration isn't a flip of the switch thing. It's a gradual process. As shown with Duma and Mila, dragons can be under degeneration but still not loose themselves fully, as it's gradual. Even then, Xane explains in the original Mystery it was gradual.

In that case, no wonder Mannu is angry then. As shown with Jeorge, there can be people not from there around.

I don't think Jeorge has been there very long given how he went there specifically to meet up with Marth. And even with him there it's so vague we don't know what the situation is. Either Mannu is willing to let solitary refugees in or Jorge simply got in without Mannu noticing (or possibly even got in after Marth had already breached the border). No indication either way.

Edited March 8, 2020 by Jotari

[eclipse]

1 minute ago, Jotari said:

 

Defending his already breached boarders against intrusion I think is a very vocal way of saying you shall not pass. Marth was most definitely fleeing Grust, but his actions show he had no concern as to how Mannu felt about the matter.

I'm going to start warning you, one point at a time, at random intervals.  Each point is permanent.  At 100, you're banned.  And if you protest, I'm going to call it insubordination.

Would you attempt to do something about your situation, or just take it lying down, knowing at some point in time, you're going to be banned for something you feel that isn't wrong?  Yes, it's a far stretch from an invading army, but if you feel that you're in danger, you're going to do something about it.  It's called self-defense, and that's exactly what happened here.

[Acacia Sgt]

6 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Degeneration in later titles is handled very differently then how it was originally written and I already mentioned how Naga is written way differently now then how the character was originally envisioned.

Its implied that Pyrathi relates to the Fire Dragon tribe in some way, he calls its Hallowed ground, there are a bunch of weird ruins on the island and the Dragon brethren once ruled the whole world uncontested.

If you didn't saw my edit, even in the Kaga era there was some sign it was gradual. At least, going from what I see in Xane's dialogue in the Anri's Way chapters, when he says things like "Eventually the Earth Dragons all lost their minds", it indicates it was gradual, and not a sudden thing afterwards.

Certainyl. If only we ever get more lore info about the place. There's always next remake, if/when it comes.

4 minutes ago, Jotari said:

 

Defending his already breached boarders against intrusion I think is a very vocal way of saying you shall not pass. Marth was most definitely fleeing Grust, but his actions show he had no concern as to how Mannu felt about the matter.

Which were only breached because they were attacked. Here's the situation:

>Marth and his forces are in the island next to Pyrathi proper. They aren't on Pyrathi soil. They're still in Archanea.
>Mannu states he'll kill them.
>Even on the game itself, you could have everyone sit on the Archanean island, and it'd be the Pyrathi forces going out of Pyrathi to attack them.

And... once again... he could say this before they step on Pyrathi proper. The fact he doesn't shows he's more in the wrong. IF anything, the blame is shared between him, for jumping to aggression as his first course of action, and Malledus for suggesting to Marth to head to Pyrathi in the first place. Then again, only from hindsight we know they did had time to leave, as Ch10 shows they went through land to Castle Deil, while not encountering yet the main Grustian force.

[Jotari]

10 minutes ago, eclipse said:

I'm going to start warning you, one point at a time, at random intervals.  Each point is permanent.  At 100, you're banned.  And if you protest, I'm going to call it insubordination.

Is this admin eclipse hat on or are you making a comparison for the conversation? Because if it's the former then I don't see what rules I'm violating here (100% earnestly). You're going to have to be more clear so we can discuss the topic without me committing any untoward behaviour.

10 minutes ago, eclipse said:

Would you attempt to do something about your situation, or just take it lying down, knowing at some point in time, you're going to be banned for something you feel that isn't wrong?  Yes, it's a far stretch from an invading army, but if you feel that you're in danger, you're going to do something about it.  It's called self-defense, and that's exactly what happened here.

Self defense is fighting Grust. This is a case of harming a bystander in the name of defense. Violating the neutrality of third party countries during the course of war is a real world issue that many nations face and it is one that usually has massive consequences and determines the moral fiber of countries. I'll let the war time leader of my neutral little country put it more elegantly than I could.

6 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

If you didn't saw my edit, even in the Kaga era there was some sign it was gradual. At least, going from what I see in Xane's dialogue in the Anri's Way chapters, when he says things like "Eventually the Earth Dragons all lost their minds", it indicates it was gradual, and not a sudden thing afterwards.

Certainyl. If only we ever get more lore info about the place. There's always next remake, if/when it comes.

Which were only breached because they were attacked. Here's the situation:

>Marth and his forces are in the island next to Pyrathi proper. They aren't on Pyrathi soil. They're still in Archanea.
>Mannu states he'll kill them.
>Even on the game itself, you could have everyone sit on the Archanean island, and it'd be the Pyrathi forces going out of Pyrathi to attack them.

And... once again... he could say this before they step on Pyrathi proper. The fact he doesn't shows he's more in the wrong. IF anything, the blame is shared between him, for jumping to aggression as his first course of action, and Malledus for suggesting to Marth to head to Pyrathi in the first place. Then again, only from hindsight we know they did had time to leave, as Ch10 shows they went through land to Castle Deil, while not encountering yet the main Grustian force.

I think Malledus's quote showing they know full well their welcome will probably not be received warmly and Mannu's own comment about them defiling holy ground indicates quite heavily they have already crossed. If anything I'd say that island you start on is already part of Pyrathi land and that the caste from the previous chapter was a border fortress. Nothing in the text suggests Marth was hanging around on the border waiting for a response and then got attacked.

Edited March 8, 2020 by Jotari

[eclipse]

1 minute ago, Jotari said:

Is this admin eclipse hat on? Because I don't see what rules I'm violating here (100% earnestly). You're going to have to be more clear so we can discuss the topic without me committing any untoward behaviour.

Nope.  Hypothetical hat on.  Because doing that would be supremely unfair.

1 minute ago, Jotari said:

Self defense is fighting Grust. This is a case of harming a bystander in the name of defense. Violating the neutrality of third party countries during the course of war is a real world issue that many nations face and it is one that usually has massive consequences and determines the moral fiber of countries. I'll let the war time leader of my neutral little country put it more elegantly than I could.

The harm is on Pyrathi's head.  Immediately assuming that someone is hostile means that they'll most likely respond in kind.  Just like me immediately assuming that you're trolling and warning you would be equally stupid (hence why I'm not going to do it).

[Jotari]

Just now, eclipse said:

Nope.  Hypothetical hat on.  Because doing that would be supremely unfair.

(That's a relief)

Just now, eclipse said:

The harm is on Pyrathi's head.  Immediately assuming that someone is hostile means that they'll most likely respond in kind.  Just like me immediately assuming that you're trolling and warning you would be equally stupid (hence why I'm not going to do it).

The harm is on Pyrathi's head because Marth has brought the war to their front door step. It has nothing to do with how hostile Marth is and everything to do with the fact that they don't want him marching through their land. Pyrathi's desire is to sit out of the war and keep to themselves which Marth makes impossible by forcing his way into their country.

Edited March 8, 2020 by Jotari

[eclipse]

Just now, Jotari said:

The harm is on Pyrathi's head because Marth has brought the war to their front door step. It has nothing to do with how hostile Marth is and everything to do with the fact that they don't want him marching through their land.

Unless Grust has magical teleportation powers, the war hasn't reached them yet.  Now, if they're afraid that Grust will strike them down because they rendered aid to Marth's army. . .well, that's what discussion is for (hey get off our land please and thank you).  But Mannu jumped immediately into kill mode, which means I don't think Marth's response of an immediate change of Pyrathi's leadership was unjustified.

[Acacia Sgt]

2 minutes ago, Jotari said:

I think Malledus's quote showing they know full well their welcome will probably not be received warmly and Mannu's own comment about them defiling holy ground indicates quite heavily they have already crossed. If anything I'd say that island you start on is already part of Pyrathi land and that the caste from the previous chapter was a border fortress. Nothing in the text suggests Marth was hanging around on the border waiting for a response and then got attacked.

Malledus's comment was before they left the Archanean castle. It's not related.

Also, his words indicate they weren't yet near Pyrathi. It was only conjecture that it's just one island between that disconnected land in Ch8 and the one in Ch9.

The text barely says anything. Nothing suggests either that he went there as an invader or with the intent to invade. Heck, there is actual text that says the opposite. He's there as a fugitive.

Eclipse already brought up that Mannu could've simply told Marth to not come, so I'm not repeating it yet again.

 

[Jotari]

Just now, eclipse said:

Unless Grust has magical teleportation powers, the war hasn't reached them yet.  Now, if they're afraid that Grust will strike them down because they rendered aid to Marth's army. . .well, that's what discussion is for (hey get off our land please and thank you).  But Mannu jumped immediately into kill mode, which means I don't think Marth's response of an immediate change of Pyrathi's leadership was unjustified.

Immediate kill mode after they had already breached his boarders judging by his quote. If he's attacking Marth before Marth arrives in Pyrathi then it of course changes the context, but everything I can read from the (limited) text suggests that's not the case and that the attack is launched in a response to trespassing.

[eclipse]

1 minute ago, Jotari said:

Immediate kill mode after they had already breached his boarders judging by his quote. If he's attacking Marth before Marth arrives in Pyrathi then it of course changes the context, but everything I can read from the (limited) text suggests that's not the case and that the attack is launched in a response to trespassing.

Lack of "this is your last warning, get out" is why I don't see this as an invasion.  Outright assuming hostility means that you're inviting it into your own home.

For all we know, this was a tactical move by Grust in the hopes of having Pyrathi get rid of Marth's army for them.

[Acacia Sgt]

11 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Immediate kill mode after they had already breached his boarders judging by his quote. If he's attacking Marth before Marth arrives in Pyrathi then it of course changes the context, but everything I can read from the (limited) text suggests that's not the case and that the attack is launched in a response to trespassing.

He had word in advance Marth was coming this way. If he only bothers to do anything after Marth has entered (which is not certain, as that piece of land isn't confirmed to be part of Pyrathi) and said something is to kill him instead of telling him to leave, then he is to blame.

His anger of them being defilers of the ground falls flat since, if it's because they're humans, then what exempts the humans already there? If it's because they've swore fealty to him... then that just comes as hypocritical, since he's judges who can or can't walk around Pyrathi according to his own whims.

Edited March 8, 2020 by Acacia Sgt

[Jotari]

22 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Malledus's comment was before they left the Archanean castle. It's not related.

Also, his words indicate they weren't yet near Pyrathi. It was only conjecture that it's just one island between that disconnected land in Ch8 and the one in Ch9.

The text barely says anything. Nothing suggests either that he went there as an invader or with the intent to invade. Heck, there is actual text that says the opposite. He's there as a fugitive.

Eclipse already brought up that Mannu could've simply told Marth to not come, so I'm not repeating it yet again.

 

We have three quotes to deal with on the matter which I think all suggest Marth was breaching the border when combat broke out.

Malledus:
“Sire, it’s too dangerous to stay here. We must flee to Pyrathi. There are risks there, too- the Pyrathi king Mannu is said to be a descendant of the dragonkin, a Manakete. Still, we’ve no other recourse. We’ll just have to take our chances… Keep your wits about you, sire.”

Malledeus is already aware that what they are doing is risky and dangerous. They haven't gone to Pyrathi yet but it's clear his reasoning is because they are desperate.

“Grust had caught the League unawares, forcing them to flee to Pyrathi. But the kingdom of Pyrathi seldom made contact with the outside world, and their king, Mannu, was wroth when he heard of the League’s unexpected visit.
There were whispers Mannu was a dragonkin- rumors soon to be proved true.”

Mannu was angry when he heard of their visit which to me suggests they are here already. Nothing is saying Mannu sent attacking forces out to meet them. Furthermore what the quote is primarily establishing is that Pyrathi is an isolationist nation. He had no way of even knowing Marth was coming until he was right there.

Mannu:
“Interlopers! Barbarous filth! They dare dig their heels and hooves into this hallowed ground? I will kill them for this- one by one- then turn the crimson grass beneath them into their pyre!”

This I think is the most explicit quote as Mannu is clearly pissed about the physical act of trespassing into land he considers sacred.

We can draw different interpretations from these three quotes but they are ultimately all we have to go on. Assuming Marth's starting island isn't a part of Pyrathi's lands is an assumption and not something the story is directly telling us about this conflict.

12 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

He had word in advance Marth was coming this way. If he only bothers to do anything after Marth has entered (which is not certain, as that piece of land isn't confirmed to be part of Pyrathi) and said something is to kill him instead of telling him to leave, then he is to blame.

The text says he didn't have word in advance. It was an unexpected visit. And, assuming zero communication, a response to getting attacked after breaching borders would be to not breach further.

12 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

His anger of them being defilers of the ground falls flat since, if it's because they're humans, then what exempts the humans already there? If it's because they've swore fealty to him... then that just comes as hypocritical, since he's judges who can or can't walk around Pyrathi according to his own whims.

Well...yes, absolutely. Being a sovereign ruler of his land he does get to decide who can and can't enter. Our nations do that every single day.

Edited March 8, 2020 by Jotari

[Acacia Sgt]

Well, yeah, it's all assumptions. The Ch9 intro narration about Mannu knowing can means that the message reached Pyrathi first, or that Marth arrived first.

Ultimately, we'd need more info on the matter. Which we won't get lest we get another remake.

[Jotari]

10 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Well, yeah, it's all assumptions. The Ch9 intro narration about Mannu knowing can means that the message reached Pyrathi first, or that Marth arrived first.

Ultimately, we'd need more info on the matter. Which we won't get lest we get another remake.

We can envision two likely scenarios. Either full communication or zero communication. For full communication Marth requests assylum, Mannu refuses and Marth decides to trespass anyway. For zero communication, Marth sends no envoys, gets attacked after entering or right at the border and continues moving deeper into the country. Neither scenario reflects well on Marth.

The third possiblity of Marth sending an envoy and the response being immediate attack from Mannu without any form of diplomacy reflects better on Marth and is theoretically possible, but not something that I think is supported at all by the text (judging by Mannu's quote I think zero communication is what's most supported, with full communication being the assumption that comes with the idea that were getting a sort of abridged scope of these conflicts. The partial communication outline doesn't seem likely to me as that's an outright story development that's just not told to us).

It is a fun predicament they put Marth in and it would be nice to see an expansion analysing his options (or hell give us something like this in a future game and let the player decide). Like I said this is something that happens in real life and it is a serious issue nations need to deal with.

I guess we did see a little bit of this with Ike at the start of Path of Radiance with Galia and Goldia. Fortunately for him both were were willing to over look it (and again with Goldoa in Radiant Dawn). What do you think Ike would have done if Deghensea had stuck to his "no way you're bringing your army into my country get back in the caves" policy in Radiant Dawn?

Edited March 8, 2020 by Jotari