FE4 Remake request: Don't balance the game!

[Hanes]

POTENTIAL SPOILERS AHEAD

I hope when IS remakes FE4 that they don't try to balance everything by nerfing it all, I mean it's a single player game so why is exact balance so important?

But ignoring that, the holy weapons are broken exactly because they are meant to be powerful storywise. And it's fine that certain units are broken and certain bosses are extremely hard to kill, as the war goes on it's only logical that only the most powerful commanders on the continent remain alive or that Holy-blood descendants are incredibly powerful.

I just hope they don't try to adjust *this and that* with the game's numbers because then it would lose a great part of this game for me, which is the way it can be broken

Thoughts?

[eclipse]

There's literally only one "numbers" adjustment I'd make, and that's make Road bonuses apply to non-cavalry units only.  Otherwise, your horses are over there, and why did you field your infantry units again?

After that, it's a bunch of small QoL things, like the ability to skip turns, implement the mixed RN system, get rid of the dead end on Chapter 2 (I think that's where it is), etc.  Would like the option to improve a character's weapon ranks, just because I see it as an artificial limiter.

Edited March 8, 2020 by eclipse

[CatManThree]

IS nerfing various things like the absurdity of astra would be like if they had chosen to removing dreadfighters promoting into villagers. Doing so just wouldn't be right as that thing being absurd isn't really really that big of a deal to begin with.

 

30 minutes ago, eclipse said:

Would like the option to improve a character's weapon ranks, just because I see it as an artificial limiter.

That kinda defeats the point of how weapon ranks worked in FE4. Weapon ranks were also linked to holy blood, making a unit's weapon options differ based on their heritage. Also most weapons you will need are likely C or B rank anyway, and making weapon ranks not set might kind of screw with the item inheritance system.

[eclipse]

1 minute ago, CatManThree said:

IS nerfing various things like the absurdity of astra would be like if they had chosen to removing dreadfighters promoting into villagers. Doing so just wouldn't be right as that thing being absurd isn't really really that big of a deal to begin with.

. . .what.

1 minute ago, CatManThree said:

That kinda defeats the point of how weapon ranks worked in FE4. Weapon ranks were also linked to holy blood, making a unit's weapon options differ based on their heritage. Also most weapons you will need are likely C or B rank anyway, and making weapon ranks not set might kind of screw with the item inheritance system.

If weapon ranks were as obnoxious as FE6's, and holy blood worked like free experience in that weapon, it might work.

[AnonymousSpeed]

This is like the least spoiler thing to have a spoiler warning I've ever seen.

To borrow an argument from @NOTchazbc24, infantry movement is less of an issue because A) Your dancer is an infantry unit that refreshes four people at once, and B) You shouldn't be sending your infantry to far corners of the map to accomplish objectives it will obviously take a plenitude of turns to get to and return from.

9 minutes ago, This boi uses Nino said:

I just hope they don't try to adjust *this and that* with the game's numbers because then it would lose a great part of this game for me, which is the way it can be broken

Thoughts?

I think there's an argument to be made for exploitable, broken systems to be fun. Not the direction I'd go in a future game, especially since FE4 doesn't really require a lot of novel solutions or creative problem solving skills to be broken. I've had more fun trying to make Noish and Midir into notable contributors than I've had with Forseti Arthur, even if the latter is obviously better.

[CatManThree]

10 minutes ago, eclipse said:

. . .what.

The topic of the thread is on the idea of IS not nerfing anything for the sake of balance when it comes to a hypothetical FE4 remake. I was commenting on this. 

[eclipse]

Just now, CatManThree said:

The topic of the thread is on the idea of IS not nerfing anything for the sake of balance when it comes to a hypothetical FE4 remake. I was commenting on this. 

Yeah, but who brought that up, specifically?  Or anything even close to it?

[CatManThree]

1 minute ago, eclipse said:

Yeah, but who brought that up, specifically?  Or anything even close to it?

I was making a comparison to another instance of a remake to make a point in support of the idea.

[eclipse]

Just now, CatManThree said:

I was making a comparison to another instance of a remake to make a point in support of the idea.

. . .but again, no one had suggested it.  That's why it looks so very out of place.

[CatManThree]

3 minutes ago, eclipse said:

. . .but again, no one had suggested it.  That's why it looks so very out of place.

That's a good point...

[Fates-Blade]

I don't know why people think FE4 is going to be remade when it has so many similarities to Three Houses which seems sadly like IS's FE4 Remake for everyone, (which does make sense, considering how dark FE4 is maybe they don't want to remake it, I don't know for sure but I think a FE6 remake is more likely.)

Edited March 8, 2020 by Fates-Blade

[Alexbond]

I think weapons need to be tweaked and pursuit needs to be reworked. I don't want pursuit to be completely removed because for some characters it's literally the only skill they can pass down and I love inheritance. Of course, it could always just be removed and replaced with something else. Tiltyu/Coirpre need to join at a higher level so they're more usable and maybe a couple of other characters could join a bit higher too. 

I don't want an avatar, but if IS is so hellbent to add one (especially since their most successful titles have all featured one) just let it be Oifey. Pick Oifey's name/gender and maybe even dictate his Gen II class and leave it at that. 

I don't want the huge maps to be chopped up into smaller chapters which I just...I dunno I can see them doing that to make them easier to digest. I love the big maps because it's reminiscent of playing a hex-and-counter wargame. 

Just now, Fates-Blade said:

I don't know why people think FE4 is going to be remade when it has so many similarities to Three Houses which seems sadly like IS's FE4 Remake for everyone, (which does make sense, considering how dark it is maybe they don't want to remake it.)

At the moment I'm not super confident that it will get remade.

It honestly surprises me that it hasn't though, because it seems like the sales numbers for the game were excellent, but it might have to do with dealing with how different it plays and how big the maps are. I'm also not super confident they will retain a lot of features, although some of my very good friends that know the series much more than me are confident it won't change too much because apparently Shadows of Valentia didn't have huge changes. I wouldn't know because I haven't played it. 

 

[Deathcon]

1 hour ago, Fates-Blade said:

I don't know why people think FE4 is going to be remade when it has so many similarities to Three Houses which seems sadly like IS's FE4 Remake for everyone, (which does make sense, considering how dark FE4 is maybe they don't want to remake it, I don't know for sure but I think a FE6 remake is more likely.)

...If that is IS remake then it is a very poor one as it has nothing to do with FE 4 in anyway other then them both being a bit darker than the other games.

[Benice]

I guess the problem with keeping most of the stuff the same is that it's really REALLY not helping new/casual players join. With 3H being incredibly popular, more and more people will be likely to notice the franchise so having a game which in my opinion is not a good introduction to the series gameplay-wise is likely to be a big turnoff to new(er) fans. I'm sure you can see the problem; not alienating new fans or ticking off Kaga fans/Vets who love Genealogy. They'd have to find a middle ground, which could easily cause problems for both sides since, y'know, a good compromise leaves everybody mad.

Honestly, if FE4 was my first game, there's no chance I'd ever have played another FE game. I'm just not the target audience for it; non-casual players are. Especially for people who are coming off of Three houses, which has tons of QoL features, Genealogy would be a very rude awakening if they kept it the same. I dunno though, just my thoughts. If they made the game more, well, playable, I'd most certainly want to play it; I just found the pace to be incredibly slow. Just because the hardcore fans are a small, number, it'd probably look very much like a different game. Maybe they could include an "Original" style game as well as a modern-fe style game?

(Thracia could possibly be included into the game package too.)

Also, they'd probably make Silvia fanservicey, which will annoy everyone for more loli fetish pandering.

[Stephano]

4 hours ago, Benice said:

 

I guess the problem with keeping most of the stuff the same is that it's really REALLY not helping new/casual players join. With 3H being incredibly popular, more and more people will be likely to notice the franchise so having a game which in my opinion is not a good introduction to the series gameplay-wise is likely to be a big turnoff to new(er) fans. I'm sure you can see the problem; not alienating new fans or ticking off Kaga fans/Vets who love Genealogy. They'd have to find a middle ground, which could easily cause problems for both sides since, y'know, a good compromise leaves everybody mad.

 

 

think I remember seeing some interview somewhere where the team that worked on shadows of Valentina new that the game would not be as popular or as big of a hit as fates and awakening were. It did not include a lot of the features those games had like romance and kids. But as a result we got a true to original game that was as “broken” as the original, had some of the best voice acting I’ve ever heard, and presented itself beautifully with its music and graphics. A lot of people will argue that FE11 is way to different than FE1 and FE12 is way to different than FE3 and that there are reasons to play FE1 and FE3. FE15 is so true to FE2, that there is literally no reason to go back and play FE2. It is that faithful of a remake.

I say all of this because if they can make a remake of Gaiden that still has all the jank in tact, then they can surely do the same for Genealogy, as long as they have the integrity to do so.

4 hours ago, Benice said:

Honestly, if FE4 was my first game, there's no chance I'd ever have played another FE game. I'm just not the target audience for it; non-casual players are. Especially for people who are coming off of Three houses, which has tons of QoL features, Genealogy would be a very rude awakening if they kept it the same. I dunno though, just my thoughts. If they made the game more, well, playable, I'd most certainly want to play it; I just found the pace to be incredibly slow. Just because the hardcore fans are a small, number, it'd probably look very much like a different game. Maybe they could include an "Original" style game as well as a modern-fe style game?

The game can be slow, yes, but I honestly feel like if they were to add a couple of quality of life features such as enemy phase skip and combat speed up, it would make the game a lot more approachable. And besides the chapters are not supposed to be completed in one sitting. People will just have to get use to playing a little at a time. I find playing the game for a little bit, taking a break, and coming back to it, to be a much better way to experience the game. I rushed through it my first time playing it because my brother and I were wanting to rank all the FE characters by favorites and it was the 3rd to last game we had to play. On 2nd playthrough, i took it much slower and am had a better time.

4 hours ago, Benice said:

(Thracia could possibly be included into the game package too.)

I recommend watching Mekkah’s video as to why Combining FE4 and FE5 is not a good idea.

4 hours ago, Benice said:

Also, they'd probably make Silvia fanservicey, which will annoy everyone for more loli fetish pandering.

I can’t believe I’m about to say this, but it makes sense for her to be a bit fanservicy? (I can’t believe I just said that)

i hate what fates and heroes did/does to characters by making them nothing but tropes and fan service. Sylvia is suppose to be an annoying child, but it was easier to get away with that back then with just a portrait and some text. Throw full art and voice acting on a dancer that it is already ditsy and promiscuous and I know it won’t turn out well. Buuuuut, Sylvia does have the best line in the game and i really hope they keep it in.

 

Edited March 8, 2020 by Stephano

[Lightcosmo]

9 hours ago, eclipse said:

There's literally only one "numbers" adjustment I'd make, and that's make Road bonuses apply to non-cavalry units only.  Otherwise, your horses are over there, and why did you field your infantry units again?

Why wouldn't Horses gain moving on roads, where they arguably are at their most comfortable? I don't think, logically, a human could keep up with a horse, either.

On topic: They couldn't balance they game even if they tried, I don't think you have to worry about that.

Edited March 8, 2020 by lightcosmo

[Yexin]

4 hours ago, Stephano said:

Buuuuut, Sylvia does have the best line in the game and i really hope they keep it in.

 

tbh sylvia never says that line in japanese

 

anyway yeah, i'd like a hypothetical Genealogy remake to be as faithful to the original game as possible, but of course QoL changes, such as skippable enemy phase, are to be expected

[Hanes]

9 hours ago, Benice said:

I guess the problem with keeping most of the stuff the same is that it's really REALLY not helping new/casual players join.

I'm going to be honest here and say that that doesn't matter. Like I don't think every game must dumb down to the lowest common denominator, it's fine for some games to expect you to have some modecum (spelling pls) of experience and game patience (and tbh FE4 being slow is an overrated opinion)

Everyone talks about appealing to the casual fans but like come on, people aren't braindead to not try other games and they may even enjoy FE4 as their first game, I mean, most other SNES communities view the game as a good one with a good story and fun gameplay, but go into a FE forum (the place of FE fans) and suddenly it's a tremendously mixed bag? How perplexing...

And in fact even when I played FE15 as my first game I still got into the series, it was a casual mode playthrough but despite not knowing anything I still got into the franchise and that's because it was my cup of tea, and I know I'm not like everyone or viceversa and that's fine. The FE franchise doesn't need to appeal to everyone, some people just don't like SRPGs and others just don't like games, we don't need to be desperately trying to appeal to as much of the world as possible and have the gameplay suffer because of this pandering.

Anyways, people aren't so braindead they can't handle the game not explaining some things (wait... the manual!) and or failing a bit, it's totally fine for a videogame to expect you to work around something rather than bowing down to "the casual gamer" and I put it in quotation marks because we all say it but we never define it, or why we should appeal to them in the first place (at the bare minimum we can agree that "the casual gamer" is separated from the FE community's "casuals")

 

To round it up, I know I only took one line from what you said, but I wanted to express my views on this point.

[Benice]

2 minutes ago, This boi uses Nino said:

I'm going to be honest here and say that that doesn't matter. Like I don't think every game must dumb down to the lowest common denominator, it's fine for some games to expect you to have some modecum (spelling pls) of experience and game patience (and tbh FE4 being slow is an overrated opinion)

The problem here is that they still have to make money from it; they DO have to appeal to the casuals since they're the majority of players. I get that you're not wanting it to be a different game from the original, but it'd possibly be a risky move for that reason. 

[Hanes]

6 minutes ago, Benice said:

The problem here is that they still have to make money from it

Yeah but like at this point, it's making good enough money, I agree with it pandering to like casual srpg gamers or casual rpg gamers or just gamers in general but trying to grab the largely non-gamer majority and pandering to them is just... like they would make a hella ton of money out of it but the game would suffer greatly if more than just QoL changes are made to pander to them. That's what I wouldn't want anyways.

12 hours ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

This is like the least spoiler thing to have a spoiler warning I've ever seen

Revisiting my OP I feel that you're right but I just wanted to be safe, I mean I guess I largely just mention the intro and when I say "the war" blind people may just think of the prologue or something.

Edited March 8, 2020 by This boi uses Nino

[Benice]

1 minute ago, This boi uses Nino said:

Yeah but like at this point, it's making good enough money

Sadly, the way capitalism works , it's unlikely that buisnesses will sacrifice quantity for quality, since everything's built on the growth model and targeting smaller demographics ain't growing your business too much. It'd be NICE If they did that, though.

[Yexin]

32 minutes ago, Benice said:

Sadly, the way capitalism works , it's unlikely that buisnesses will sacrifice quantity for quality, since everything's built on the growth model and targeting smaller demographics ain't growing your business too much. It'd be NICE If they did that, though.

while producing SoV, they perfectly knew it wouldn't have sold as much as awakening or fates did sadly, yet they said they were very satisfied with its sales, so i'm pretty sure casual players are NOT their target, or at least their main target, when producing remakes of older titles

i'm pretty sure they know their business... for remakes at least

also, they could try to take advantage of 3H's, Awakening's and Fates's popularity to push Genealogy's remake; something like "Hey, characters have something similar to the crest system of 3H! It has deep politics just like 3H (eh)! It has children just like Awakening and Fates! It has lots of romance just like 3H, Awakening and Fates!" and so on and so forth

 

what a Genealogy remake does NOT need IN ANY FORM OR SHAPE, is an avatar, just like 3H, Awakening and Fates
they haven't added one in SoV, so i'm quite confident they won't add one in another remake (right Kris?)

lastly, i know this may be quite controversial, but i'm curious about whether they'll add new characters and/or villains, just like they did with Faye, Berkut and Ferdinand in SoV
imo it's highly likely they'll add a female cavalier in the prologue along with Alec and Noish, for the sake of gender representation, which is probably the same reason why Faye even exists to begin with, although they would have to create new children units if that is the case

 

also, don't nerf Master Knight please

Edited March 8, 2020 by Yexin

[Benice]

1 minute ago, Yexin said:

what a Genealogy remake does NOT need IN ANY FORM OR SHAPE, is an avatar, just like 3H, Awakening and Fates
they haven't added one in SoV, so i'm quite confident they won't add one in another remake (right Kris?)

also, i know this may be quite controversial, but i'm curious about whether they'll add new characters and/or villains, just like they did with Faye, Berkut and Ferdinand in SoV

I agree with that and I actually like the new characters added in SoV. As long as Faye's equivalent is not the sibling of their crush, I'm fine with it.

[Hanes]

33 minutes ago, Yexin said:

also, don't nerf Master Knight please

Oh god please no. Why haveth you spoketh the curseth words?

[eclipse]

4 hours ago, lightcosmo said:

Why wouldn't Horses gain moving on roads, where they arguably are at their most comfortable? I don't think, logically, a human could keep up with a horse, either.

If we're going with real-world things, tomes shouldn't be heavier than swords, but here we are.  Also, do you know what everyone's movement would look like on a road, assuming that cavalry didn't have the bonus?  This is one of those things that you should calculate out before replying.

1 hour ago, This boi uses Nino said:

Everyone talks about appealing to the casual fans but like come on, people aren't braindead to not try other games and they may even enjoy FE4 as their first game, I mean, most other SNES communities view the game as a good one with a good story and fun gameplay, but go into a FE forum (the place of FE fans) and suddenly it's a tremendously mixed bag? How perplexing...

The game's unfun.  There's very little that tells you "and then you'll need to run back THIS WAY", getting a unit literally stuck in a dead end wasn't funny, and don't get me started on the trade system (which I didn't put down as a "hey we should fix this", because even if it's clunky, I can somewhat justify it).

Also, the vast majority of casual players don't post here.  We're a literal vocal minority.  And I'm the vocal minority within the vocal minority that thinks that FE4 had some cool ideas, but its execution was an absolute trainwreck.