What playable franchise (besides Final Fantasy) do you think suffers from representation?

[Interdimensional Observer]

1 hour ago, Benice said:

At least they didn't make the Gerudo waman a love interest too. Twinrova X Link, tho? Hot.

And cold!😛 

According to Zelda Wiki, the original version of Ocarina of Time called Twinrova in its German version, translated, "Hellish Witch Armada: Killer Grannyz". Fixed to their actual name and title in the 3DS version.

 

--

I can't think of any franchise that hasn't been named already that could use better representation. And my personal inclinations are not to pick a particular one that needs it more than any other.

I would say Sonic could achieve it without problems from me though.:

• Xeno is stuck in me being personally split in Rex vs. Elma (Rex will end up being chosen however). 
• FE is already bloated.
• LoZ has its core members (but, Mario got Rosalina & Luma, so a flavor-of-the-year LoZ character should be acceptable).

For Sonic, what objections would there be to Shadow Echo + either Tails or Knuckles (I'd prefer him) as a full fighter (or Eggman- nah, too complicated)?

[Benice]

3 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Hellish Witch Armada: Killer Grannyz

That sounds like a death metal boy band.

3 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Tails or Knuckles

I could see either and/or both with different movesets; Knuckles would be more of a brawler, Tails could throw wrenches or something?

4 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Eggman

Eggman could be an echo/heavier version of Boweser Jr. with his eggmanobile or whatever it's called.

[Fire Emblem Fan]

I think Zelda and Donkey Kong are two candidates, actually. Forget the "too many Marths" complaints, look at all the Links! Zelda could really use someone like Darunia for another playable character, or Vaati. As for Donkey Kong, it took far too long to get the characters we have now; DK could use a couple more, such as Dixie, Funky, and/or Cranky.

I'd totally be down for more Pac-Man if it means Ms. Pac-Man is his echo fighter.

I think Luigi's Mansion is severely ignored. Switch Luigi a tad so he represents his own series and maybe add an Assist Trophy or two.

As for Fire Emblem, I'm...actually okay with the *number* of characters. Heck, they could add one or two more and I think it'd still be fine (10 is where I think the limit should be for any series, personally)! I do think they could diversify it more, though. They've done a good job with Marth, Ike, Robin, Corrin, and Byleth, but Roy, Chrom, and Lucina could stand to be more...unique. And of course the playable FE characters in Smash will never be correct until Lyn is playable.

[Interdimensional Observer]

5 minutes ago, Benice said:

I could see either and/or both with different movesets; Knuckles would be more of a brawler, Tails could throw wrenches or something?

Knuckles I see as having more to work with to differentiate him from Sonic compared to Tails, based on what I remember of Sonic Adventure 2, Sonic Battle, and Sonic Heroes.

 

5 minutes ago, Benice said:

Eggman could be an echo/heavier version of Boweser Jr. with his eggmanobile or whatever it's called.

I forgot BJr. exists, Eggman stands a chance of working then. And they have no shortage of "Egg XXX" machines to reference from decades of fail villainy and make a moveset out of you know what they say, the more the merrier!.

[Anacybele]

26 minutes ago, Fire Emblem Fan said:

I think Luigi's Mansion is severely ignored. Switch Luigi a tad so he represents his own series and maybe add an Assist Trophy or two.

Polterpup for Assist Trophy, yes!

[Gregster101]

8 hours ago, Fire Emblem Fan said:

I think Zelda and Donkey Kong are two candidates, actually. Forget the "too many Marths" complaints, look at all the Links! Zelda could really use someone like Darunia for another playable character, or Vaati. As for Donkey Kong, it took far too long to get the characters we have now; DK could use a couple more, such as Dixie, Funky, and/or Cranky.

I'd totally be down for more Pac-Man if it means Ms. Pac-Man is his echo fighter.

I think Luigi's Mansion is severely ignored. Switch Luigi a tad so he represents his own series and maybe add an Assist Trophy or two.

As for Fire Emblem, I'm...actually okay with the *number* of characters. Heck, they could add one or two more and I think it'd still be fine (10 is where I think the limit should be for any series, personally)! I do think they could diversify it more, though. They've done a good job with Marth, Ike, Robin, Corrin, and Byleth, but Roy, Chrom, and Lucina could stand to be more...unique. And of course the playable FE characters in Smash will never be correct until Lyn is playable.

Yeah, I'd totally be down for more Donkey Kong characters like Dixie and Funky

Sadly, they can't use Ms. Pac-Man as an Echo Fighter, cuz AtGames snatched the rights to her from Namco. Fucking pieces of shit 😠

I wouldn't mind Luigi having a bit more of a shake up with his moveset to better reference Luigi's Mansion

[Lightchao42]

I'll go through each series one by one. I'll start with the original ten series and their representation in Ultimate...

Mario: Eight characters, one Echo, 20 items, five Assist Trophies, 18 stages, six remixes (though Wrecking Crew is basically an extension, so add another stage, item, and remix to that). It's Mario, what do you expect? Though spinoffs aside from Mario Kart and Paper Mario tend to be neglected.

Donkey Kong: Three characters, one item, one Assist Trophy, four stages, five remixes. Fine in Ultimate, somewhat lacking before then. Another character wouldn't hurt and it could use a non-jungle stage.

Zelda: Six characters, eight items, four Assist Trophies, nine stages, eight remixes. Another character wouldn't hurt (though there's no obvious frontrunner), otherwise fine.

Metroid: Three characters, one Echo, four stages, two Assist Trophies, one item, three remixes. Mostly fine but it could use another non-lava stage.

Yoshi: One character, four stages, one remix. Lacking on its own merits, but as a spinoff of Mario it's fine.

Kirby: Three characters, six stages, three Assist Trophies, six items, two remixes. As Sakurai's baby it's fine, but non-Sakurai games tend to be underrepresented. Another character also wouldn't hurt.

Star Fox: Three characters, three stages, two Assist Trophies, one item, no remixes. It's fine considering how fluctuant its state has been over the years.

Pokémon: Ten characters, seven stages, a ton of Pokémon, two items, eight remixes. It's Pokémon, what do you expect?

EarthBound: Two characters, four stages, two Assist Trophies, three items, two remixes. It's fine, and arguably has more content than it really warrants.

F-Zero: One character, three stages, an Assist Trophy, no items, three remixes. It's fine considering that the last game was released in 2004.

For the sake of convenience I'll continue this in another post.

Edited March 16, 2020 by Lightchao42

[Fabulously Olivier]

I'd like to see a change to Castlevania representation. Namely, making Richter an alt costume for Simon and then adding Trevor as another costume.

[NinjaMonkey]

14 hours ago, Florete said:

The stages for it have all been jungle-based

75m is based off of the Donkey Kong arcade game, where there's not a jungle in sight.

[Perkilator]

5 hours ago, Etheus said:

I'd like to see a change to Castlevania representation. Namely, making Richter an alt costume for Simon and then adding Trevor as another costume.

…Or we can just change his Holy Water to work how it did in Rondo of Blood, and change the Final Smash to Hydrostorm and make it non-cinematic.

[vanguard333]

5 hours ago, Etheus said:

I'd like to see a change to Castlevania representation. Namely, making Richter an alt costume for Simon and then adding Trevor as another costume.

I second having Trevor Belmont in Smash Bros. And, if an opponent has Alucard as an assist trophy, Alucard should say to Trevor, "Please; this isn't a bar fight. Have some class." 

[Fabulously Olivier]

23 minutes ago, Perkilator said:

…Or we can just change his Holy Water to work how it did in Rondo of Blood, and change the Final Smash to Hydrostorm and make it non-cinematic.

But I want Trevor. The best Belmont. 😐

[Ottservia]

Persona because I want Yu Narukami in smash damnit. He’d play a lot different from joker(as Yu uses a katana while Joker uses a dagger) also Izanagi is pretty different statistically from Arsene with different elemental abilities and quite the unique looking sword(or is it a spear) regardless. I think Yu would make for a pretty cool fighter. I would also say Makoto Yuki but P3’s methods for summoning a persona is not appropriate for an E10+ game

[Fabulously Olivier]

24 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

Persona because I want Yu Narukami in smash damnit. He’d play a lot different from joker(as Yu uses a katana while Joker uses a dagger) also Izanagi is pretty different statistically from Arsene with different elemental abilities and quite the unique looking sword(or is it a spear) regardless. I think Yu would make for a pretty cool fighter. I would also say Makoto Yuki but P3’s methods for summoning a persona is not appropriate for an E10+ game

They could always reference it in a family friendly way (ie: the character points a finger gun at their head) to summon. Or... they could just leave out the animation altogether.

[Fire Emblem Fan]

If we get more Castlevania...Leon Belmont when?

[Lord_Brand]

On 3/15/2020 at 5:34 PM, Anacybele said:

Zelda. Sure, it doesn't have a lot of notable characters to pick from

• Impa
• Marin
• Saria
• Darunia
• Ruto
• Nabooru
• Malon
• Tingle
• Deku Link, Goron Link, & Zora Link (perhaps combined with Young Link)
• Vaati
• Tetra
• Wolf Link & Midna
• Twili Midna
• Linebeck
• Byrne
• Groose
• Ghirahim
• Ravio
• Hilda
• Yuga
• Daruk
• Mipha
• Urbosa
• Revali

Edited March 17, 2020 by Lord_Brand

[Anacybele]

3 minutes ago, Lord_Brand said:

 

  Hide contents

 

• Impa
• Marin
• Saria
• Darunia
• Ruto
• Nabooru
• Malon
• Tingle
• Deku Link, Goron Link, & Zora Link (perhaps combined with Young Link)
• Vaati
• Tetra
• Wolf Link & Midna
• Twili Midna
• Linebeck
• Byrne
• Groose
• Ghirahim
• Ravio
• Hilda
• Yuga
• Daruk
• Mipha
• Urbosa
• Revali

 

 

Most of those aren't notable enough.

[Lord_Brand]

1 hour ago, Anacybele said:

Most of those aren't notable enough.

The internet says otherwise. I see a lot more fanart of these characters than I do of a potted plant.

Impa is a recurring character much as Link, Zelda, and Ganondorf, Ruto is easily the most popular of the OoT Sages, Darunia is the face of the Goron tribe, Nabooru is the mosty notable female Gerudo, Midna and Ghirahim are notable enough they at least got in as ATs, Marin and Malon are wildly popular with fans, and Tingle got his own games. Japan-only games mind you, but still.

Smash could afford to add at least a few of these characters. Me, I'd pick Impa, Darunia, and Ruto personally as we have Hylian, Gerudo, and technically Sheikah representation, though I'd like Nabooru or Urbosa as well since they represent the Gerudo tribe better than Ganondorf. The Four Champions collectively draw a lot of attention, and could be packaged together as a team, each using his or her signature weapon and spell. Not to mention the potential for Young Link to use transformation masks like in MM, which gels with the modern Smash convention of referencing game mechanics whenever possible.

2 hours ago, Fire Emblem Fan said:

If we get more Castlevania...Leon Belmont when?

Add in Trevor and they could just have Simon, Trevor, Richter, and Leon collectively as the Belmont fighter, much like Dragon Quest's Hero. Alucard would be the second obvious pick, and maybe Soma and Shanoa after him.

Edited March 17, 2020 by Lord_Brand

[Anacybele]

1 minute ago, Lord_Brand said:

The internet says otherwise. I see a lot more fanart of these characters than I do of a potted plant.

Popularity alone won't get a character a roster spot though. There are other factors that are looked at.

[Lord_Brand]

36 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

Popularity alone won't get a character a roster spot though. There are other factors that are looked at.

Here we go again...How else do you explain Sheik's inclusion in Melee, then? Alright then, let's tackle some other factors:

 

• Series Significance - Impa is by far the next most significant character you can add for the Zelda series, being the most recurring character not named Link, Zelda, or Ganon. Her OoT or SS portrayals would presumably be used as the base here, as those versions are athletic enough to viably function as playable fighters, in contrast to the old lady versions. Though there is also the bulky Oracle version...OoT Impa could easily be a Sheik Echo, and I'd argue Sheik should have been her Echo since Zelda obviously learned her Sheikah skills from Impa. Darunia also deserves mention here as the Gorons were introduced in OoT and have become a staple race of the Zelda series since, Darunia himself inspiring Darmani, Darbus, and Daruk. The Zora have been around even longer, though their OoT portrayal has inspired most of their later appearances, and Ruto along with Darunia is quite iconic to the Zelda series to the point several characters and objects are named after her (Laruto, Rutela, Vah Ruta, and Ruto Crown; you can also make an argument for Lulu whose Japanese name would be Ruru, easily derived from Ruto) or based on her (Mipha's affections for Link were no doubt inspired by Ruto's in OoT). Furthermore Darunia and Ruto share their names with towns in Zelda II, making them retroactively some of the most recurring namesakes for the Zelda series (and more recurring than Saria, Nabooru, or Rauru).
• Nintendo/Video Gaming History Significance - I'm assuming this is your argument for how fighters like Mr. Game & Watch, R.O.B., Duck Hunt, and Wii Fit Trainer get in as they represent different peripherals and whatnot. As far as Zelda's relevance to this category goes, it can be argued that Zelda games have long helped sell game systems as happened with Game Boy, GBC, GBA, DS, Wii, Wii U, and Switch. Do the Zelda games in question not deserve some playable representation as well? Furthermore, OoT is easily the Zelda series' most significant release since the original thanks to the innovation of Z-Targeting, which forever changed video gaming and made all kinds of 3D games possible today. Thus, it only stands to reason that game would get a lot of attention. Now Sheik and Ganondorf could be said to represent OoT, and in Sheik's case you'd be right as Sheik has yet to return in a core Zelda title. Ganondorf however represents the Zelda series as a whole, as Link and Zelda do, rather than any one individual game. And hey, if Fire Emblem Awakening can get three reps, why can't OoT get two or three more?
• Conceptual Representation - If I recall, you said Piranha Plant represents the concept of "mooks", and you went on about how different fighters represent diferent concepts, vague as that definition is. Okay then, Darunia and Ruto represent the concept of major NPCs within their base game, as well as tribal leaders. They are also among the legendary Sages. Many Zelda characters represent a concept, some several. You can represent many of those concepts with playable fighters. Link has the Sword, Bow, Bombs, Boomerang, and (until SSBU) the Hookshot/Clawshot. Zelda has the Goddess spells, representing the use of magic. Ruto could represent the series' frequent water themes and items, Darunia can represent the recurring Power Bracelet and Hammer items. I will also point out that many concepts are represented by more than one Smash fighter, like the concepts of major heroes and villains.
• Gameplay/Design Diversity - You don't have a lot of fighters in Smash currently similar to the likes of Darunia, Ruto, or Nabooru. Yeah, you have other hammer users, but can any of them roll like a boulder, throw bombs, or use fire/lava attacks? Greninja is a watery fighter, but would it fight like Ruto or Mipha, the latter of whom would wield a trident as her weapon? And I know we don't have any good stand-ins for a scimitar fighter like Urbosa or maybe Nabooru (who could also or instead wield an axe, another fairly novel weapon in Smash).

As for other series, I'd push for more Mega Man representation. X & Zero, Mega Man Volnutt, MegaMan.EXE, Neo Zero, and Vent/Aile all would make fine playable options, each with distinct gameplay styles. I'd also consider adding Proto Man and Bass.

More Sonic characters would be welcome. Tails and Knuckles could team up with Sonic to form Team Sonic. Shadow as a standalone fighter would be an obvious Echo, though if Sonic became Team Sonic then Shadow could in turn add Rouge and Omega to form Team Dark. Both Teams function a lot like Pokemon Trainer, letting you switch between the three members and sharing a Final Smash.

I'd also like to start seeing more third party villains. Garland would be perfect, using his Dissidia moveset as a base. Eggman could work as a Sonic rep, piloting his Egg Mobile much like how Bowser, Jr. and the Koopalings pilot the Koopa Clown Car.

For Mario, I'd like to see an honest-to-goodness Bowser's Castle Stage, maybe with an Airship added in. It's an iconic level archetype, how have they not done it yet? Really, I think every fighter should have a "home stage", even if some have to share.

Edited March 17, 2020 by Lord_Brand

[Anacybele]

23 minutes ago, Lord_Brand said:

How else do you explain Sheik's inclusion in Melee, then?

Easy, Sheik is Zelda's other form and Zelda is very notable.

[Lord_Brand]

Zelda's other form in OoT. Why isn't Tetra in Smash, then? She's Zelda's other form in TWW.

[Perkilator]

39 minutes ago, Lord_Brand said:

Zelda's other form in OoT. Why isn't Tetra in Smash, then? She's Zelda's other form in TWW.

Because WW Zelda isn’t in Smash to transform into her.

[Lightcosmo]

11 hours ago, Lord_Brand said:

As for other series, I'd push for more Mega Man representation. X & Zero, Mega Man Volnutt, MegaMan.EXE, Neo Zero, and Vent/Aile all would make fine playable options, each with distinct gameplay styles. I'd also consider adding Proto Man and Bass.

Oh my gosh, Megaman.EXE please! That would so amazing!

[vanguard333]

11 hours ago, Lord_Brand said:

Add in Trevor and they could just have Simon, Trevor, Richter, and Leon collectively as the Belmont fighter, much like Dragon Quest's Hero. Alucard would be the second obvious pick, and maybe Soma and Shanoa after him.

This I could see, though mainly just because I want Trevor Belmont in Smash Bros. Alucard would be an interesting second pick, but I can think of a certain pirate who could use some attention after being completely omitted from the TV show. 

If not Grant, then I could also see Sypha in Smash Bros, though probably as an assist trophy rather than a playable fighter. 

12 hours ago, Lord_Brand said:

 

  Hide contents

 

• Impa
• Marin
• Saria
• Darunia
• Ruto
• Nabooru
• Malon
• Tingle
• Deku Link, Goron Link, & Zora Link (perhaps combined with Young Link)
• Vaati
• Tetra
• Wolf Link & Midna
• Twili Midna
• Linebeck
• Byrne
• Groose
• Ghirahim
• Ravio
• Hilda
• Yuga
• Daruk
• Mipha
• Urbosa
• Revali

 

 

Hm...

Spoiler

• Impa would more than likely basically be Sheik. 
• Marin could be interesting because of the Link's Awakening Remake, but she'd almost-certainly be better as an assist trophy than a fighter. 
• Similar story for Saria, but less likely since it's been years since there was a remake of Ocarina of Time. 
• Darunia would have rather limited moveset potential: roll, punch, swing a hammer. Again, assist trophy material. 
• How would Ruto work? Would her attacks be sitting down and getting Link to throw her at enemies?
• Would this be Nabooru as herself or as an Iron Knuckle?
• Malon is assist trophy material; providing Lon Lon Milk or summoning Epona to trample opponents. 
• How would Tingle work?! It's Tingle! I can't even see him as an assist trophy.
• Those three versions of Link would work best as part of Young Link.
• I've mentioned Vaati, Tetra, and Wolf Link & Midna. They could work. 
• I'm having trouble seeing what Twilit Midna could do that Wolf Link & Midna couldn't. 
• Would this be Linebeck as himself or possessed by Bellum?
• Byrne could work, though he'd probably be best as a boss. 
• What can Groose do? Make opponents' gorge rise at the sight of his appalling hair? (Sorry, I could't resist; I just love when Ghirahim says that to him; it's absolutely hilarious)
• I could see Ghirahim as a full fighter rather than an assist trophy. 
• How would Ravio work? Give him his items and he's basically Link (which, in a sense, he already is)
• Hilda would probably be a Zelda echo. 
• Yuga... I think I would rather see as a two-phase boss like Dracula. He uses his painting magic in the first phase, then he merges with Ganon in the second phase. 
• Hm... I could see something done with the four champions, just not them being fighters. I'm just not sure what would be the best use of them though.