COVID-19 Discussion & Resources

[Jotari]

I honestly don't see any inherent issue in naming the virus based on its origin. People can derive offense from that but the term itself I think is neutral. With that being said, Trump is definitely talking politically by doing that, as there's absolutely no reason to identify it based on origin given it has an already existent name that is in very common use. And by this point it's initial location is obviously rather irrelevant as its very much a world problem. Blaming China for what they could have done doesn't help anyone right now.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

I wouldn't say referencing "China" or "Wuhan" in the name is an inherently racist step, given that's its place of origin. What bugs me is, it's a new term for a virus already well-known by two names: the general "coronavirus", and more particular "COVID-19". To insist on calling it something else comes across as more of a "China bad" virtue signal than anything else. Which, granted, the government of China is bad, but assigning blame for how it began needs to take a back seat to optimizing a response that will stop the disease's transmission, address its harmful effect, and mitigate the economic impact.

Credit where it's due, though, Trump has had one really cool name for the disease, the "invisible enemy". Reminds me of Fates: Revelation. Screw Valla.

[eclipse]

17 hours ago, AvatarofDiscord said:

1: I understand that it could sound like it puts blame on the Chinese people, but honestly I think only the most extreme of the right would blame everyone Chinese for the virus, however I could be wrong and if I am I apologize as I wouldn’t personally say Chinavirus, but I would blame the Chinese government for this epidemic

2: I understand that, I was referring to others not in government who are arguing about their side about how the government is doing so far

I also was referring to those in congress who would veto an idea on the basis of the opposition side said it if that is still going on right now

Arguing about how to fix this mess would be exempt from what I was talking about 

 

15 hours ago, Jotari said:

I honestly don't see any inherent issue in naming the virus based on its origin. People can derive offense from that but the term itself I think is neutral. With that being said, Trump is definitely talking politically by doing that, as there's absolutely no reason to identify it based on origin given it has an already existent name that is in very common use. And by this point it's initial location is obviously rather irrelevant as its very much a world problem. Blaming China for what they could have done doesn't help anyone right now.

 

8 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

I wouldn't say referencing "China" or "Wuhan" in the name is an inherently racist step, given that's its place of origin. What bugs me is, it's a new term for a virus already well-known by two names: the general "coronavirus", and more particular "COVID-19". To insist on calling it something else comes across as more of a "China bad" virtue signal than anything else. Which, granted, the government of China is bad, but assigning blame for how it began needs to take a back seat to optimizing a response that will stop the disease's transmission, address its harmful effect, and mitigate the economic impact.

Credit where it's due, though, Trump has had one really cool name for the disease, the "invisible enemy". Reminds me of Fates: Revelation. Screw Valla.

Alright, you three.  READ THROUGH THIS TOPIC.  Look at the logic behind it.  And if you disagree, I'd best see a damn good argument.

TO THE REST OF THE WORLD THAT DOESN'T THINK THAT NAMING THINGS AFTER THE PLACE OF ORIGIN IS A BAD IDEA:

Either quote what the issue is with the arguments presented here, or face a suspension.

[Jotari]

2 minutes ago, eclipse said:

 

 

Alright, you three.  READ THROUGH THIS TOPIC.  Look at the logic behind it.  And if you disagree, I'd best see a damn good argument.

TO THE REST OF THE WORLD THAT DOESN'T THINK THAT NAMING THINGS AFTER THE PLACE OF ORIGIN IS A BAD IDEA:

Either quote what the issue is with the arguments presented here, or face a suspension.

But I agree that we shouldn't name it based on place of origin.

[eclipse]

3 minutes ago, Jotari said:

But I agree that we shouldn't name it based on place of origin.

Reread your first sentence, then think long and hard about the connotations of naming Something Bad after a place will do to people's perception of that place.

[Jotari]

Just now, eclipse said:

Reread your first sentence, then think long and hard about the connotations of naming Something Bad after a place will do to people's perception of that place.

That's what the rest of post addresses. Maybe I wasn't clear enough. I don't personally think we need to attach connotations to something that is neutral, but people will so we shouldn't, especially when there's already a name in common parlance and it has long since ceased to be a localized problem.

[eclipse]

Just now, Jotari said:

That's what the rest of post addresses. Maybe I wasn't clear enough. I don't personally think we need to attach connotations to something that is neutral, but people will so we shouldn't, especially when there's already a name in common parlance and it has long since ceased to be a localized problem.

Gotcha.  Given the impact this virus has on the world, I doubt history will forget its roots.

[XRay]

For people who are bored out of their minds, I recommend doing something extremely labor intensive and/or time consuming, and to use up even more time, you can write an essay about it and document it. I picked making gyoza today, cause I am kind of a noob and am pretty slow, which means it will take me a really long time. I think I spent at least a good 5 hours just sitting at home making gyoza, although I did take frequent breaks.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

14 hours ago, eclipse said:

 

 

Alright, you three.  READ THROUGH THIS TOPIC.  Look at the logic behind it.  And if you disagree, I'd best see a damn good argument.

TO THE REST OF THE WORLD THAT DOESN'T THINK THAT NAMING THINGS AFTER THE PLACE OF ORIGIN IS A BAD IDEA:

Either quote what the issue is with the arguments presented here, or face a suspension.

I'm basically in-line with @Jotari on this (after posting, I realized that what I said was basically a rewording of their own). I similarly expressed that I wasn't in favor of referring to this disease by its place origin (I would extend this to other diseases, like Spanish flu). And obviously, suspicion / prejudice / acts of violence against people of perceived Chinese descent, on the basis of this disease, is inexcusable. 

I do think there's room, though, to ask on what basis are people referring to the virus as "Chinese". If it's an attempt to place the blame on people of that country, or whose descent is from that part of the world, then it's almost certainly racist - or at the very least, jingoistic. If, rather, it's an attempt to blame the disease (and/or its spread) on the Chinese government, then I would say it's not entirely inaccurate, albeit possibly nationalistic. My own understanding is that, while China's government has taken strong steps to curtailing the disease recently, they could have been more proactive and transparent earlier on, potentially saving lives in their own country and abroad.

At the very least, I hope we can agree that criticizing the government of other (specifically non-white-majority) countries, while possibly motivated by racial or ethnic prejudice, is not necessarily so. Again, though, I don't believe now is the time for assigning blame, unless it's in a manner that propels meaningful positive action against the virus.

12 hours ago, XRay said:

For people who are bored out of their minds, I recommend doing something extremely labor intensive and/or time consuming, and to use up even more time, you can write an essay about it and document it. I picked making gyoza today, cause I am kind of a noob and am pretty slow, which means it will take me a really long time. I think I spent at least a good 5 hours just sitting at home making gyoza, although I did take frequent breaks.

Sounds good! I've never been very good with dumplings. I've tried making ravioli, they fell apart. Tried making samosas, they fell apart. Hope your gyoza turned out well!

[XRay]

48 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Sounds good! I've never been very good with dumplings. I've tried making ravioli, they fell apart. Tried making samosas, they fell apart. Hope your gyoza turned out well!

Yeah, I still have a lot of filling left, so I have to take a trip to the grocery store later and get some more wraps.

Speaking of shopping, it might be helpful to have a group chat via text, Facebook Messenger, or whatever app with your friends and family, so you can tell your friends and family if you find something that they have trouble finding. For example, some of my friends were having issues finding bleach, and since we already have a group chat, it was pretty easy for us to coordinate where to find certain things. It helps cutting down on trips to the store.

[Johann]

9 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

I'm basically in-line with @Jotari on this (after posting, I realized that what I said was basically a rewording of their own). I similarly expressed that I wasn't in favor of referring to this disease by its place origin (I would extend this to other diseases, like Spanish flu). And obviously, suspicion / prejudice / acts of violence against people of perceived Chinese descent, on the basis of this disease, is inexcusable. 

I do think there's room, though, to ask on what basis are people referring to the virus as "Chinese". If it's an attempt to place the blame on people of that country, or whose descent is from that part of the world, then it's almost certainly racist - or at the very least, jingoistic. If, rather, it's an attempt to blame the disease (and/or its spread) on the Chinese government, then I would say it's not entirely inaccurate, albeit possibly nationalistic. My own understanding is that, while China's government has taken strong steps to curtailing the disease recently, they could have been more proactive and transparent earlier on, potentially saving lives in their own country and abroad.

At the very least, I hope we can agree that criticizing the government of other (specifically non-white-majority) countries, while possibly motivated by racial or ethnic prejudice, is not necessarily so. Again, though, I don't believe now is the time for assigning blame, unless it's in a manner that propels meaningful positive action against the virus.

By that same logic, we can call it the American Disease due to how poorly the Trump administration and many state governments have handled it. The disease already had a name, and giving it a new one isn't necessary, especially when the only reason to do so is to lump the blame onto how one nation responded to it. This whole situation is also showing how dumb a lot of people are, so expecting them to take a name like that as anything beyond blaming all of China is absurd.

There are countless better ways to criticize a government. Naming a disease after the whole nation doesn't do that, it just makes life harder for the people and descendants of that nation.

[XRay]

6 hours ago, Johann said:

By that same logic, we can call it the American Disease due to how poorly the Trump administration and many state governments have handled it. The disease already had a name, and giving it a new one isn't necessary, especially when the only reason to do so is to lump the blame onto how one nation responded to it. This whole situation is also showing how dumb a lot of people are, so expecting them to take a name like that as anything beyond blaming all of China is absurd.

There are countless better ways to criticize a government. Naming a disease after the whole nation doesn't do that, it just makes life harder for the people and descendants of that nation.

I think there are two somewhat separate but intertwined issues and context is important.

6 hours ago, Johann said:

By that same logic, we can call it the American Disease due to how poorly the Trump administration and many state governments have handled it. The disease already had a name, and giving it a new one isn't necessary, especially when the only reason to do so is to lump the blame onto how one nation responded to it. This whole situation is also showing how dumb a lot of people are, so expecting them to take a name like that as anything beyond blaming all of China is absurd.

I think this issue is just the usage of language and free speech. It is not necessary to give a new name to COVID-19, but this name is not just a new name, it is a way to voice grievances and political dissent to hold people responsible and in power accountable. You might think it is pointless to use names this way, but I think this speech is worth being expressed.

Blaming China is absolutely warranted. And just because we are blaming China does not mean we are not holding our own government accountable. We are not placing all the blame on China either. We are still criticizing our own government for failures. This issue also would not have turned as political as it did if China did not play the blame game first and said the United States should have went along with them in suppressing information instead of saying the truth. Keep in mind that China is also using propaganda to obscure its negligence, and using the term puts their negligence under heavy spotlight.

It is reasonable for people to voice their grievances in response to a threat to their friends and family, especially against a political system that suppresses free speech and jeopardizes the health of people around the world through misinformation. Silencing grievances and political speech is wrong in my opinion. Even if I do not have family in China, the fact that China's actions has jeopardized my family in Canada, New Zealand, and the United States should still warrant a loud complaint from me.

And calling it American disease is fine too. Trump disease is even better in my opinion; I really do not want him to win the election. There is no need to limit it to just one name.

This has nothing to do with race, which is the next issue.

6 hours ago, Johann said:

There are countless better ways to criticize a government. Naming a disease after the whole nation doesn't do that, it just makes life harder for the people and descendants of that nation.

There are indeed better ways to criticize a government. It is not a good practice to name a disease after a nation either. And there is a risk of making life harder for the people and descendants of that nation too.

However, I think that risk is low. For example, when I said "China" in the previous section, it is pretty obvious I am referring to Pooh Bear and his pig sty, and there is no confusion that I am not placing the blame on the Chinese people. This is not very different from saying "Russian interference" in the context of our elections; no one needs to explain that it is directed at Putin and the Russian government and not the people. This also applies in reverse too; when people say "Black Lives Matter," no one is saying that black lives matter more than others; only the densest people and those in the right claim that and want to feel included with the stupid "All Lives Matter" slogan. Until the term actually acquires a negative racial vibe and is used extensively in that way to attack Asian and Chinese Americans, saying that using the term is racist is jumping the gun a bit.

In this thread so far, when people used the term, it has been exclusively used to criticize Pooh Bear and/or his pig sty, and it was nowhere close to being hate speech where it is used to blame people with Asian or Chinese ancestry. I have no issue with limiting and controlling hate speech, but making people self censor and feel guilty about using certain speech that has the potential to be hate speech, but is not actually hate speech, gets in the way of free speech. Limiting speech this way makes me feel uncomfortable because people's grievances and political dissent is legitimate. Not everyone knows the most politically correct way to say something. Anyone would get defensive if people misconstrued their words as racist when they have no intention of being racist. The term is not even close to being on the same level as "Mexicans are bringing drugs, crimes, and rapists." When people who are clearly not racist have to explain they are not being racist for using language that is not close to being hate speech, that is when I think political correctness is starting to become overbearing.

I have not used the term even once in this post, and no one is confused about what term I am referring to. However, not everyone have the time (although they should now if they are staying at home) or are word savvy enough to police their own words like I just did. Out of respect for those who may be offended, I will not use the term, but I think it is premature to automatically call people racist for using the term, especially when they have a legitimate grievance and political dissent. There are hate crimes directed at Asians and Chinese people right now, but I am not sure if using the term actually has any significant effect on hate crimes. I prefer the wait and see a little more before discouraging people from using the term.

[Johann]

3 hours ago, XRay said:

I think this issue is just the usage of language and free speech. It is not necessary to give a new name to COVID-19, but this name is not just a new name, it is a way to voice grievances and political dissent to hold people responsible and in power accountable. You might think it is pointless to use names this way, but I think this speech is worth being expressed.

Blaming China is absolutely warranted. And just because we are blaming China does not mean we are not holding our own government accountable. We are not placing all the blame on China either. We are still criticizing our own government for failures. This issue also would not have turned as political as it did if China did not play the blame game first and said the United States should have went along with them in suppressing information instead of saying the truth. Keep in mind that China is also using propaganda to obscure its negligence, and using the term puts their negligence under heavy spotlight.

It is reasonable for people to voice their grievances in response to a threat to their friends and family, especially against a political system that suppresses free speech and jeopardizes the health of people around the world through misinformation. Silencing grievances and political speech is wrong in my opinion. Even if I do not have family in China, the fact that China's actions has jeopardized my family in Canada, New Zealand, and the United States should still warrant a loud complaint from me.

And calling it American disease is fine too. Trump disease is even better in my opinion; I really do not want him to win the election. There is no need to limit it to just one name.

This has nothing to do with race, which is the next issue.

It's not a matter of free speech, it's a matter of hate speech. Protesting this way is meaningless and stigmatizing Chinese people is harmful. Even when you criticize "China", as in the whole country, and not the government/Xi Jinping specifically, it's very likely that some readers (including lurkers) aren't aware that you're referring to only the later. You don't get a pass because you're afraid of how the virus might affect your family, or because you've arbitrarily decided it "has nothing to do with race" when it's 100% about race.

3 hours ago, XRay said:

There are indeed better ways to criticize a government. It is not a good practice to name a disease after a nation either. And there is a risk of making life harder for the people and descendants of that nation too.

However, I think that risk is low. For example, when I said "China" in the previous section, it is pretty obvious I am referring to Pooh Bear and his pig sty, and there is no confusion that I am not placing the blame on the Chinese people. This is not very different from saying "Russian interference" in the context of our elections; no one needs to explain that it is directed at Putin and the Russian government and not the people. This also applies in reverse too; when people say "Black Lives Matter," no one is saying that black lives matter more than others; only the densest people and those in the right claim that and want to feel included with the stupid "All Lives Matter" slogan. Until the term actually acquires a negative racial vibe and is used extensively in that way to attack Asian and Chinese Americans, saying that using the term is racist is jumping the gun a bit.

In this thread so far, when people used the term, it has been exclusively used to criticize Pooh Bear and/or his pig sty, and it was nowhere close to being hate speech where it is used to blame people with Asian or Chinese ancestry. I have no issue with limiting and controlling hate speech, but making people self censor and feel guilty about using certain speech that has the potential to be hate speech, but is not actually hate speech, gets in the way of free speech. Limiting speech this way makes me feel uncomfortable because people's grievances and political dissent is legitimate. Not everyone knows the most politically correct way to say something. Anyone would get defensive if people misconstrued their words as racist when they have no intention of being racist. The term is not even close to being on the same level as "Mexicans are bringing drugs, crimes, and rapists." When people who are clearly not racist have to explain they are not being racist for using language that is not close to being hate speech, that is when I think political correctness is starting to become overbearing.

I have not used the term even once in this post, and no one is confused about what term I am referring to. However, not everyone have the time (although they should now if they are staying at home) or are word savvy enough to police their own words like I just did. Out of respect for those who may be offended, I will not use the term, but I think it is premature to automatically call people racist for using the term, especially when they have a legitimate grievance and political dissent. There are hate crimes directed at Asians and Chinese people right now, but I am not sure if using the term actually has any significant effect on hate crimes. I prefer the wait and see a little more before discouraging people from using the term.

You're running on assumptions. You can't be sure what anybody who reads your posts interprets your words to mean, even if you only factor those who post here regularly. Countless people misinterpret the meaning of phrases, etc, which is how Blue Lives Matter came about.

This is a lot of effort on your part to explain why you think it's ok to use a racist term, when the simple option is to accept that it's racist, refrain from using it, and move on. This thread has had a Chinese person and a mod both explicitly say that it's racist and they don't want to hear it. Please listen to them.

[XRay]

2 hours ago, Johann said:

You don't get a pass because you're afraid of how the virus might affect your family, or because you've arbitrarily decided it "has nothing to do with race" when it's 100% about race.

2 hours ago, Johann said:

This is a lot of effort on your part to explain why you think it's ok to use a racist term, when the simple option is to accept that it's racist, refrain from using it, and move on. This thread has had a Chinese person and a mod both explicitly say that it's racist and they don't want to hear it. Please listen to them.

My family is Chinese. My non-blood uncle and aunt who I care about deeply are Chinese. Two of my best friends are Chinese. I do not like to claim my parent's ethnicity (this is a personal issue, so I am not going into here), but if you DNA test me, it should say Chinese.

I agree that we should tread carefully around race, but we also should not overreact and call something racist without considering the full context. Republicans could have easily said using "Russian inference" is racist against Russians and argue the term is 100% about race, as it is in the same format to the term and it lumps one group of people with a government. Things are not black and white like that. Building a wall is pretty racist without even mentioning an ethnicity, trade war against China and restricting Huawei though are pretty legitimate and not racist given the geopolitical situation. Racism is dangerous, but so is overreaction to racism, probably not to the same degree, but overbearing political correctness does push people away from the left and it desensitizes people to care about what the left has to say.

And this applies to both the left and right when they get trigger happy about labeling things as racist, communist, or whatever -ist, and over prioritizing one issue over another issue. Labelling things like that is polarizing, it makes people defensive, defensiveness shuts down people's willingness to listen, and listening to the other side is something we have not been doing a lot of lately. There is a price to pay when we automatically jump to simple solutions like banning a term without fully thinking it through, and I think it is more prudent to wait and see first before automatically labelling something as racist. Simple solutions are sometimes good, but sometimes it is not.

[eclipse]

2 hours ago, XRay said:

And this applies to both the left and right when they get trigger happy about labeling things as racist, communist, or whatever -ist, and over prioritizing one issue over another issue. Labelling things like that is polarizing, it makes people defensive, defensiveness shuts down people's willingness to listen, and listening to the other side is something we have not been doing a lot of lately. There is a price to pay when we automatically jump to simple solutions like banning a term without fully thinking it through, and I think it is more prudent to wait and see first before automatically labelling something as racist. Simple solutions are sometimes good, but sometimes it is not.

This might be a good point if there weren't two other names for the virus, one of which is official.

---

Hawaii is at 56 cases, and two counties just got the lockdown order.  One being Honolulu County (otherwise known as "that island with the most people on it").

Edited March 23, 2020 by eclipse

[FrostyFireMage]

China really does deserve the flak it's getting. A country that rich and developed has no excuse for allowing wet markets to continue.

...I feel bad for the Chinese people in China and other countries though. People are not going to forgive China for this and I fear racist attacks against Chinese people are going to explode in number once this is all finished.

[Johann]

23 minutes ago, XRay said:

My family is Chinese. My non-blood uncle and aunt who I care about deeply are Chinese. Two of my best friends are Chinese. I do not like to claim my parent's ethnicity (this is a personal issue, so I am not going into here), but if you DNA test me, it should say Chinese.

I agree that we should tread carefully around race, but we also should not overreact and call something racist without considering the full context. Republicans could have easily said using "Russian inference" is racist against Russians and argue the term is 100% about race, as it is in the same format to the term and it lumps one group of people with a government. Things are not black and white like that. Building a wall is pretty racist without even mentioning an ethnicity, trade war against China and restricting Huawei though are pretty legitimate and not racist given the geopolitical situation. Racism is dangerous, but so is overreaction to racism, probably not to the same degree, but overbearing political correctness does push people away from the left and it desensitizes people to care about what the left has to say.

And this applies to both the left and right when they get trigger happy about labeling things as racist, communist, or whatever -ist, and over prioritizing one issue over another issue. Labelling things like that is polarizing, it makes people defensive, defensiveness shuts down people's willingness to listen, and listening to the other side is something we have not been doing a lot of lately. There is a price to pay when we automatically jump to simple solutions like banning a term without fully thinking it through, and I think it is more prudent to wait and see first before automatically labelling something as racist. Simple solutions are sometimes good, but sometimes it is not.

You're getting a bit off topic here, but the bottom line is that intent is irrelevant when determining if an act is racist, only the impacts matter. In this case, the impact is that calling the disease by where it was first identified, rather than by its actual name, reinforces stereotyped thinking in many people's minds about not only Chinese people, but East Asian people in general. It's a racist name. Stop defending an act of racism.

[eclipse]

20 minutes ago, FrostyFireMage said:

China really does deserve the flak it's getting. A country that rich and developed has no excuse for allowing wet markets to continue.

...I feel bad for the Chinese people in China and other countries though. People are not going to forgive China for this and I fear racist attacks against Chinese people are going to explode in number once this is all finished.

Criticize the government, if you will.  But when your "pity" of Chinese people only extends to those that are outside of China, then you don't get to criticize the rest of the nation.  Thing is, not everyone in China is equally rich. . .or equally educated.  But this is an issue with their government.  You, at least, can read up on what life is like in that vast country (besides just the industrialized parts).

[XRay]

59 minutes ago, eclipse said:

This might be a good point if there weren't two other names for the virus, one of which is official.

Yes, but the other two names do not have the function of voicing grievances and political dissent. I do not mind banning the term later if it gets undoubtedly racist, but saying that it is racist right now feels premature in my opinion. Pooh Bear is systemically all deflecting criticism away from himself and the central government and shifting all the blame on the local governments, and now that they have largely achieved that, they are also starting to shift the blame to the United States with conspiracy theories about how the United States army was the true culprit who made the virus. Using the term highlights their negligence.

43 minutes ago, Johann said:

You're getting a bit off topic here, but the bottom line is that intent is irrelevant when determining if an act is racist, only the impacts matter. In this case, the impact is that calling the disease by where it was first identified, rather than by its actual name, reinforces stereotyped thinking in many people's minds about not only Chinese people, but East Asian people in general. It's a racist name. Stop defending an act of racism.

I am going to disagree about intent does not matter. I think intent and impact both matter. I think it is better to take our time before acting to see how big of an impact it actually is, instead of just assuming it is going to negatively affect Asians and Chinese people significantly. Holding people who are responsible and in power accountable for their actions is just as important in my opinion. Prematurely banning a term when it turns out it is not being used in a racist way effectively removes one way of voicing discontent with nothing in return. I think the best course of action is to assess the impact first before acting.

43 minutes ago, FrostyFireMage said:

China really does deserve the flak it's getting. A country that rich and developed has no excuse for allowing wet markets to continue.

...I feel bad for the Chinese people in China and other countries though. People are not going to forgive China for this and I fear racist attacks against Chinese people are going to explode in number once this is all finished.

20 minutes ago, eclipse said:

Criticize the government, if you will.  But when your "pity" of Chinese people only extends to those that are outside of China, then you don't get to criticize the rest of the nation.  Thing is, not everyone in China is equally rich. . .or equally educated.  But this is an issue with their government.  You, at least, can read up on what life is like in that vast country (besides just the industrialized parts).

He did say he feels bad about Chinese people in China and outside of China.

I do not think it is necessary to ban wet markets altogether, but I do think there needs to be proper regulation and enforcement. Some of the wet markets I have been to are actually not bad, especially in the richer areas of Guang Zhou (and I assume it is the same for other cities), but many of them elsewhere in less affluent areas do need stricter sanitation and a few of them are really just downright disgusting and filthy though. For the cleaner wet markets, they mostly got sanitation down, so my only two complaints against them is that they need to use refrigerators with big glass windows more instead of just allowing meat to sit out in the open, and some of them still need to stop cramming so many animals in one container or cage.

[eclipse]

2 minutes ago, XRay said:

Yes, but the other two names do not have the function of voicing grievances and political dissent. I do not mind banning the term later if it gets undoubtedly racist, but saying that it is racist right now feels premature in my opinion. Pooh Bear is systemically all deflecting criticism away from himself and the central government and shifting all the blame on the local governments, and now that they have largely achieved that, they are also starting to shift the blame to the United States with conspiracy theories about how the United States army was the true culprit who made the virus. Using the term highlights their negligence.

You can find a better way of voicing your grievances.  Really.  Out of all the nonsense their government has pulled, perhaps focus on something that is well and truly their fault (say, a certain firewall), instead of something that has a bit of wiggle room (this).

If the gun control topic is any indication, it's a lot harder to separate people out of a category - because it's so easy to paint a faceless group as a problem, when it's certain people within the group that are causing the mayhem.  So naming the virus after the region means that it can go two ways, and I'm the one that has to deal with the actual racists.

[Johann]

8 minutes ago, XRay said:

I am going to disagree about intent does not matter. I think intent and impact both matter. I think it is better to take our time before acting to see how big of an impact it actually is, instead of just assuming it is going to negatively affect Asians and Chinese people significantly. Holding people who are responsible and in power accountable for their actions is just as important in my opinion. Prematurely banning a term when it turns out it is not being used in a racist way effectively removes one way of voicing discontent with nothing in return. I think the best course of action is to assess the impact first before acting.

If a person has any good intent, they'll listen when other people let them know they're fucking up and doing something that promotes racism. You don't play a game of Wait & See with the impacts of racism.

The irony is probably lost on you, but your wait and see mentality on this perfectly parallels the bad government response to the virus itself. Does this mean we should hold people like you responsible for the uptick in violence and harassment towards Asian people?

[XRay]

8 minutes ago, eclipse said:

You can find a better way of voicing your grievances.  Really.  Out of all the nonsense their government has pulled, perhaps focus on something that is well and truly their fault (say, a certain firewall), instead of something that has a bit of wiggle room (this).

If the gun control topic is any indication, it's a lot harder to separate people out of a category - because it's so easy to paint a faceless group as a problem, when it's certain people within the group that are causing the mayhem.  So naming the virus after the region means that it can go two ways, and I'm the one that has to deal with the actual racists.

That is fair. I do not think anyone is going to intentionally infect its own population with a virus and shut down their own economy willingly. But I am still hesitant to simply call people racist when that is not their intent.

10 minutes ago, Johann said:

If a person has any good intent, they'll listen when other people let them know they're fucking up and doing something that promotes racism. You don't play a game of Wait & See with the impacts of racism.

The irony is probably lost on you, but your wait and see mentality on this perfectly parallels the bad government response to the virus itself. Does this mean we should hold people like you responsible for the uptick in violence and harassment towards Asian people?

There are some things that we should take action immediately, and some things we should not. Reacting to the virus quickly is fine. Reacting quickly to outright racism is also fine. In this case, the term is not as black and white racism as you make it out to be. Overbearing political correctness only further pushes people away. I think the risk in waiting outweighs the risk in rushing the racist label.

[Johann]

21 minutes ago, XRay said:

There are some things that we should take action immediately, and some things we should not. Reacting to the virus quickly is fine. Reacting quickly to outright racism is also fine. In this case, the term is not as black and white racism as you make it out to be. Overbearing political correctness only further pushes people away. I think the risk in waiting outweighs the risk in rushing the racist label.

The impacts are observable now. Asian people are being harassed and stigmatized now. It's that simple. Wouldn't you rather push away racist and contrarian assholes over innocent Asian people?

[XRay]

1 hour ago, Johann said:

The impacts are observable now. Asian people are being harassed and stigmatized now. It's that simple. Wouldn't you rather push away racist and contrarian assholes over innocent Asian people?

I prefer to wait and see whether that is just the news highlighting a few cases or whether it is actually the start of systemic harassment. The stigmatization Asians experience right now is nowhere comparable to the scale of the harassment Latinos face from ICE nor the high incarceration rates faced by black people. No one is deporting us nor separating us from the rest of society into separate quarantines.

[Johann]

35 minutes ago, XRay said:

I prefer to wait and see whether that is just the news highlighting a few cases or whether it is actually the start of systemic harassment. The stigmatization Asians experience right now is nowhere comparable to the scale of the harassment Latinos face from ICE nor the high incarceration rates faced by black people. No one is deporting us nor separating us from the rest of society into separate quarantines.

It's not gonna become systemic, it's just gonna be assholes doing awful things to Asian people. Not everything has to be the next kids in cages thing to be reprehensible, but it's obvious why he said it and where it'll go from there.

edit: Here, read an article

Edited March 23, 2020 by Johann