Fire Emblem Heroes - Special Heroes (Familial Festivities)

[XRay]

2 hours ago, Nym said:

Yes, it's possible to fix those units. I would argue any units in the game can be good with premium skills.

Player Phase units do not need premium skills. Fury/Life and Death-Brazen Atk/Spd with proper buffs is all you really need. I have been using Player Phase units for a long time now, and they really do not need a lot of love to be effective.

2 hours ago, Nym said:

But in my opinion, what makes a good TT or GHB is either their combat effectiveness and/or what skills they offer. All of those units I mentioned have neither of those (with or without refine) because they are simply outclassed by better units (like Navarre or Lon'qu being better than Rutger) or have skills that have been outclassed or irrelevant over time (Flier guidance, whatever Clide or Tobin have to offer, even Bond skills for anything not related to Rokkr).

Grail units are not the only ones who face this problem, new units face this problem too. I think you are being unfairly harsh on Grail and demote units just because they do not fit your exact expectations or play style. If you are comparing Grail units to the cream of the crop out there, you should hold new units to the same standard too.

Just looking at Larcei and Mareeta for example, they look impressive on paper but still pathetic compared to Laevatein despite having two generations of BST advantage and better stat distribution. Most sword units after Laevatein are honestly crap in comparison. I cannot comment on FF!Bartre since I do not know his stats yet, but even if he sucks, it is not that big of a deal when he is in the same position as Larcei and Mareeta—these are not units you invest in if you want the best performance. I guess Larcei and Mareeta has a niche as Galeforcers, but for the best practicality, Eliwood and BH!Roy are better investments since they do not hog high demand Sacred Seals to work. In terms of fodder though, FF!Bartre is not bad, and I think you are underselling FF!Bartre's Weapon: total stats +10 and debuff nullification is pretty good, and the activation requirement is pretty lenient in my opinion. Safeguard in comparison only has total stats +7 and no debuff nullification. Larcei and Mareeta do have more valuable skills, but they are 5* exclusive units.

BH!Ike completely outclasses every tank in the game right now. Why even bother with Familial Festivities Idunn when she has crap movement and she can only nullify her weaknesses for one turn? I do not see why players are still so impressed by armor units just because they have high BST. High BST matters, but it is not the only thing that matters.

I cannot comment on FF!Narcian's stats since we do not know it yet, but he is in the same position as FF!Bartre. Not bad for having a good inheritable Weapon.

FF!Fir is good. She has a niche as a Galeforcer who can also take bust armor tanks. No complaints here.

FF!Est got serious issues as a mixed phase unit, assuming that is what her default build is implying: she got bow weakness and her tome is positioning dependent. If you want a top tier versatile unit, we need to look no further than RS!Alfonse. He can do Enemy Phase, mixed phase, and Player Phase. Enemy Phase and mixed phase are practically the same vanilla build, and once you give him Pulse Smoke, he will be about as optimal you will get. For Player Phase, he just needs Blazing Wind and Life and Death to become Ophelia 2.0. Her advantage over RS!Alfonse is that she flies, but so does every other blue mage flier. 1Her only salvation as a unit is whether or not her stat distribution is comparable to or better than SR!Laegjarn and ASS!Camilla.

2 hours ago, Nym said:

What bothers me the most is that IS has been really obvious recently with the way they handle new units: give all the good skills to 3 females and keep them 5 stars. Add a 4th unit, a male, give them average skills at best and make them the demote of the banner. Then either add a TT male unit with even worse fodder in a very saturated class or a GHB male that doesn't have anything good except the 5 star skill, sometimes that being not even good either.

There's plenty of good examples of TT or GHB units on top of my head: Aversa, Winter Cecilia, Bath Camilla, Naesala and Izuki (only reason he is good is to promote his game).

BH!Ike and RS!Alfonse are some top tier performance/versatile dudes. Eliwood and BH!Roy might not look impressive combat wise, but they are valuable for multi team modes since they do not hog high demand Heavy Blade/Flashing Blade Sacred Seals.

And just because dudes are common demotes or Grail units, that is not a bad thing. It means they are cheaper to merge, or completely free in the case of Grail units. You need to summon THREE or FOUR 5* exclusive skills AT MOST to pimp out a non 5* exclusive husbando. For a 5* exclusive waifu, players need to summon ELEVEN copies of 5* units,  and that is assuming you like her default skill set and you do not need any other premium skills. Building a waifu is at least 2.75 times more expensive than building a husbando. Looking at it from this point of view, being a demote or a Grail unit honestly is not that bad even if you need to do a skill kit overhaul.

On to the units themselves:

Aversa is good.

GOW!Cecilia and HS!Camilla face the same problem as FF!Idunn and FF!Est. Enemy Phase wise, they are completely outclassed by BH!Ike. They are not bad units, but if we are comparing them to the cream of the crop like BH!Ike, then they are pretty much crap and are not much better than FF!Bartre in my opinion. HS!Camilla has it even worse since she has no value on a Player Phase team; mage and bow fliers cover the raw damage output role via Blade tomes and Brave Bow, mage fliers got Counter-Vantage covered, bow fliers got Firesweep covered, and melee fliers got Galeforce covered.

Naesala is nice. 3 movement flying Galeforcer is a solid niche.

Itsuki is honestly not much better than FF!Bartre in my opinion. He is okay for sure just like most units out there, but he is still absolute crap when compared against BH!Ike.

[Nym]

48 minutes ago, Othin said:

We've been getting plenty of premium male units and free/demote female units. See: Nils, Rudolf, Silque, Ced, Altena, NY Eir, every duo unit before this banner. 

True. Duo units are a different animal however.

48 minutes ago, Othin said:

I won't say it's balanced, but the only recent banners that perfectly fit that "premium units are female, non-premium are male" model are this one and TMS. The last one before that is... Picnic, kind of? If you count Lukas as non-premium, which is technically false but close enough. 

You forgot about the new Three House banner, Ferdinand is the demote and has bad skills while the three female students are premium. And Flame Emperor... well is Flame Emperor.

34 minutes ago, XRay said:

Player Phase units do not need premium skills. Fury/Life and Death-Brazen Atk/Spd with proper buffs is all you really need. I have been using Player Phase units for a long time now, and they really do not need a lot of love to be effective.

I mean... you are not wrong but obviously all the Player Phase skills you mentioned have their own premium version. Which is always nice to help your favorites.

38 minutes ago, XRay said:

Grail units are not the only ones who face this problem, new units face this problem too. I think you are being unfairly harsh on Grail and demote units just because they do not fit your exact expectations or play style. If you are comparing Grail units to the cream of the crop out there, you should hold new units to the same standard too.

Just looking at Larcei and Mareeta for example, they look impressive on paper but still pathetic compared to Laevatein despite having two generations of BST advantage and better stat distribution. Most sword units after Laevatein are honestly crap in comparison. I cannot comment on FF!Bartre since I do not know his stats yet, but even if he sucks, it is not that big of a deal when he is in the same position as Larcei and Mareeta—these are not units you invest in if you want the best performance. I guess Larcei and Mareeta has a niche as Galeforcers, but for the best practicality, Eliwood and BH!Roy are better investments since they do not hog high demand Sacred Seals to work. In terms of fodder though, FF!Bartre is not bad, and I think you are underselling FF!Bartre's Weapon: total stats +10 and debuff nullification is pretty good, and the activation requirement is pretty lenient in my opinion. Safeguard in comparison only has total stats +7 and no debuff nullification. Larcei and Mareeta do have more valuable skills, but they are 5* exclusive units.

New units are different because, unless they are the demote of the banner that usually has subpart skills to offer, they most of the time have something to value for your orbs: a premium skill for example. So even if they aren't the best of their class, at least you get something for your orbs/tickets/lucky free pull. Also I am not going to compare 5 stars today, that's a can of worms I do not want to open.

The reason why it bothers me for Grail units is that they are technically one of the rewards for playing a gamemode that is still a pain in the butt to play (for most players at least). So unless one of these units is your favorite, no one is going to summon for them outside of the copy you get for free.

1 hour ago, XRay said:

BH!Ike completely outclasses every tank in the game right now. Why even bother with Familial Festivities Idunn when she has crap movement and she can only nullify her weaknesses for one turn? I do not see why players are still so impressed by armor units just because they have high BST. High BST matters, but it is not the only thing that matters.

I notice you mention Brave Ike quite often in your post so I'm going to address your point here at once.

Brave Ike outclass everyone with a proper team and support units. His only weakness is the player who controls him. So comparing him to a grail unit isn't really fair.

1 hour ago, XRay said:

And just because dudes are common demotes or Grail units, that is not a bad thing. It means they are cheaper to merge, or completely free in the case of Grail units. You need to summon THREE or FOUR 5* exclusive skills AT MOST to pimp out a non 5* exclusive husbando. For a 5* exclusive waifu, players need to summon ELEVEN copies of 5* units,  and that is assuming you like her default skill set and you do not need any other premium skills. Building a waifu is at least 2.75 times more expensive than building a husbando. Looking at it from this point of view, being a demote or a Grail unit honestly is not that bad even if you need to do a skill kit overhaul.

I have nothing against making dudes the demote, but my point was that maybe they should try to have a little variety in new banners? Because it's getting quite dull, even if Altena wasn't so long ago.

[FoxyGrandpa]

As someone who (sadly) prefers female units to males, I don't really feel the free male units get shafted that much (at least not that much compared to females). Higher availability alone makes them way easier to get a few copies of, which fixes potential stat deficiencies, and its much more fun to pimp them out with premium skills compared to a unit who's already built for you out of the box. A 4 star focus like Narcian is hella easy to get too (on average you should get him in around 35 orbs iirc) which is great for both fans of the character and players who want to experiment with his weapon on other units. If anything, I feel the female units have been getting shafted more, in the sense that there is no way to feasibly acquire most of them without spending over a 100 orbs on average. If Bernadetta was 4 - star focus lance cav with SIlver Lance+, I would have been way more incentive to spend orbs and try to +10 her. But since she's a 5 star focus, I can't expect to feasibly get multiple copies of her without opening my wallet

The main issue I take with most of these free units is that some of their kits are purposely made to be crap. Like come on, IS clearly knows that stuff like Silver Lance+ and Obstruct are crap skills that we've had in the 3-4 star pool for years, yet they still give it to these units. It comes off as being petty. If it was a skill that was bad, but not easily accessible, like Feint skills, it wouldn't be as bad.

[Othin]

40 minutes ago, Nym said:

True. Duo units are a different animal however.

You forgot about the new Three House banner, Ferdinand is the demote and has bad skills while the three female students are premium. And Flame Emperor... well is Flame Emperor.

Most of the duo units include a female secondary unit, but my impression is that the duo units end up getting defined primarily by their lead unit.

As for the 3H banner, I almost counted it by mistake, before remembering that that would not be accurate.

[Nym]

18 minutes ago, Othin said:

Most of the duo units include a female secondary unit, but my impression is that the duo units end up getting defined primarily by their lead unit.

As for the 3H banner, I almost counted it by mistake, before remembering that that would not be accurate.

I count them as something else entirely, but maybe that's just me.

Why? It fits the description perfectly.

[Othin]

Just now, Nym said:

I count them as something else entirely, but maybe that's just me.

Why? It fits the description perfectly.

The description requires any free and demote units to be male.

[Nym]

1 minute ago, Othin said:

The description requires any free and demote units to be male.

Ferdinand?

[Othin]

Just now, Nym said:

Ferdinand?

Yes, out of the 5 characters associated with the banner, Ferdinand is one of the 4 who fits the pattern. Because it's not all 5, it's not a perfect match.

[Nym]

1 minute ago, Othin said:

Yes, out of the 5 characters associated with the banner, Ferdinand is one of the 4 who fits the pattern. Because it's not all 5, it's not a perfect match.

I don't get it, is it because of Flame Emperor that the banner doesn't fit the bill? Because otherwise, the rest fits the pattern.

[Sunwoo]

The FE7 banner doesn't strictly fit the pattern, but it is sure "a thing" that Leila made it on the banner with such a busted kit. I actually can't access CYL4 data right now so I don't know where she was there, but I kind of doubt CYL4 placements would've been able to affect that particular banner so I looked at CYL3 instead. Leila came in 164, which is good, but is still below Rath and Nils, Louise, Pent, and Erk.

Admittedly, Fiora and Heath were lower than her, but if we're going strictly by popularity while keeping the same units, it would've made better sense to make Nils the most busted one, then Rath, with Leila being "the Fiora" and Fiora herself being the demote. You can argue that Leila is more busted than Nils, which is kind of silly considering that Nils was the most popular unit on this banner and actually playable.

So ... I mean, even when they don't strictly fit the pattern, some of their decisions can't be explained by just popularity. Even if I'm personally happy that Rath was the 4-star, making it easier to pull a good copy of him, it's baffling that they made him the insta-demote instead of Fiora, who's far less impressive and harder to pull and in a more saturated class.

EDIT: That said, I think a part of me is okay that Narcian's easier to pull than if he weren't the insta-demote. But he should've gotten a better kit, seriously. As should've Bartre. Obstruct in 2020, what???

Edited March 17, 2020 by Sunwoo

[Othin]

16 minutes ago, Nym said:

I don't get it, is it because of Flame Emperor that the banner doesn't fit the bill? Because otherwise, the rest fits the pattern.

Yeah. Flame Emperor doesn't fit the pattern, so it's only a partial fit, not a perfect fit.

6 minutes ago, Sunwoo said:

The FE7 banner doesn't strictly fit the pattern, but it is sure "a thing" that Leila made it on the banner with such a busted kit. I actually can't access CYL4 data right now so I don't know where she was there, but I kind of doubt CYL4 placements would've been able to affect that particular banner so I looked at CYL3 instead. Leila came in 164, which is good, but is still below Rath and Nils, Louise, Pent, and Erk.

Admittedly, Fiora and Heath were lower than her, but if we're going strictly by popularity while keeping the same units, it would've made better sense to make Nils the most busted one, then Rath, with Leila being "the Fiora" and Fiora herself being the demote. You can argue that Leila is more busted than Nils, which is kind of silly considering that Nils was the most popular unit on this banner and actually playable.

So ... I mean, even when they don't strictly fit the pattern, some of their decisions can't be explained by just popularity. Even if I'm personally happy that Rath was the 4-star, making it easier to pull a good copy of him, it's baffling that they made him the insta-demote instead of Fiora, who's far less impressive and harder to pull and in a more saturated class.

EDIT: That said, I think a part of me is okay that Narcian's easier to pull than if he weren't the insta-demote. But he should've gotten a better kit, seriously. As should've Bartre. Obstruct in 2020, what???

Yeah, there's definitely a bias here. I don't want to come off as saying that isn't the case, just that it isn't to the extreme of a complete split being common.

(Speaking of Fiora, why doesn't she have Fury 4? It seems so silly to make premium units with just Tier 3 versions of skills available at Tier 4 at this point.)

[Baldrick]

1 hour ago, Nym said:

True. Duo units are a different animal however.

They prove the point that it’s premium, not female, units that are getting favorable treatment. Most premium units are female, but that’s just a demographic thing.

Quote

You forgot about the new Three House banner, Ferdinand is the demote and has bad skills while the three female students are premium. And Flame Emperor... well is Flame Emperor.

I haven’t played TH, but I got the impression they were female.

Quote

Brave Ike outclass everyone with a proper team and support units. His only weakness is the player who controls him. So comparing him to a grail unit isn't really fair.

Why not? He’s free and he’s male. Fits both of your descriptors.

9 minutes ago, Sunwoo said:

As should've Bartre. Obstruct in 2020, what???

Well, it’s better than Brash Assault at least.

[Anacybele]

Man, that Sturdy Stance 3 is just getting more and more tempting. I gotta have it on my Frederick someday for sure. If I happen to pull a Fae + Idunn with good IVs though, I'll keep that one and pull for a second one. I don't have a red duo unit. Both of the duo units I have are blue.

[Sunwoo]

10 minutes ago, Othin said:

(Speaking of Fiora, why doesn't she have Fury 4? It seems so silly to make premium units with just Tier 3 versions of skills available at Tier 4 at this point.)

... She really only had Fury 3? Wooooooow, lame.

Also, seriously, Lance Exp. 3 on Narcian? We couldn't at least have had a second source of axe valor? At least Rath brought a form skill into the 4-star pool and Ferdinand brought a rouse skill.

EDIT:

8 minutes ago, Baldrick said:

Well, it’s better than Brash Assault at least.

Is it? Is it really?

Edited March 17, 2020 by Sunwoo

[Nym]

16 minutes ago, Othin said:

Yeah. Flame Emperor doesn't fit the pattern, so it's only a partial fit, not a perfect fit.

Fair enough I guess.

16 minutes ago, Othin said:

(Speaking of Fiora, why doesn't she have Fury 4? It seems so silly to make premium units with just Tier 3 versions of skills available at Tier 4 at this point.)

Because she got that B skill... the Pegasus Flight?

14 minutes ago, Baldrick said:

They prove the point that it’s premium, not female, units that are getting favorable treatment. Most premium units are female, but that’s just a demographic thing.

Duo units by default get premium skills, it doesn't what gender the characters in the duo have. The mere concept of duo units is "premium" after all. IS could release a duo unit represented by two stick figures and they would still get premium skills.

14 minutes ago, Baldrick said:

I haven’t played TH, but I got the impression they were female.

They are. But everyone refers them as "they".

14 minutes ago, Baldrick said:

Why not? He’s free and he’s male. Fits both of your descriptors.

Unless you use only a unmerged neutral copy.

But since everyone use a merged Bike, that doesn't count as free.

 

Edited March 17, 2020 by Nym

[Baldrick]

56 minutes ago, Nym said:

Because she got that B skill... the Pegasus Flight?

It’s still weird given that premium units usually get several premium skills.

Quote

Duo units by default get premium skills, it doesn't what gender the characters in the duo have. The mere concept of duo units is "premium" after all.

Duo units aren’t inherently premium, they are because IS designs them that way. If Spring Bartre were Spring Bartre&Karla, with the same kit, would that be premium?

Quote

Unless you use only a unmerged neutral copy.

The same argument applies. Brave Ike is meta because of his refined weapon.

Edited March 18, 2020 by Baldrick

[XRay]

3 hours ago, Nym said:

I mean... you are not wrong but obviously all the Player Phase skills you mentioned have their own premium version. Which is always nice to help your favorites.

Yes, they have premium versions, but are also totally unnecessary for a Player Phase unit. Enemy Phase units need to spend a lot more to have the same sort of reliability as Player Phase units. If you are building most units as Player Phase units, it significantly cuts down on their cost.

3 hours ago, Nym said:

New units are different because, unless they are the demote of the banner that usually has subpart skills to offer, they most of the time have something to value for your orbs: a premium skill for example. So even if they aren't the best of their class, at least you get something for your orbs/tickets/lucky free pull. Also I am not going to compare 5 stars today, that's a can of worms I do not want to open.

The reason why it bothers me for Grail units is that they are technically one of the rewards for playing a gamemode that is still a pain in the butt to play (for most players at least). So unless one of these units is your favorite, no one is going to summon for them outside of the copy you get for free.

Grail units and demotes have valuable fodder too. Just looking at the recent 20 Grail units available for summoning, only like 5 are completely worthless, and most of the useless ones were released like almost a year ago.

Spoiler

Itsuki: Worthless
Travant: Flier Guidance
RS!Eir: Temari, Spd Tactic
GG!Jaffar: Minty Cane (not terribly useful, but good for builds where you want maximum Auto-Battle sustainability like Tempest Trials)
Kempf: Fortress Res
Brunnya: Res Smoke
Cormag: Def Opening, Dull Close
Conrad: Barrier Lance, Bracing Stance, Chill Atk
Rolf: Worthless
Astram: Wrath
Rinea: Silver Goblet
Sigrun: Hone Fliers
Death Knight: Close Guard
Kronya: Distant Guard
SR!Fiora: Worthless
SR!Ylger: Flashing Blade
Cynthia: Worthless
BB!Louise: Worthless
DW!Dealthea: Worthless
ASFP!Leo: Sandwiches!, Distant Def

And most of the recent demotes from the last six months are not bad either. High demand and optimal skills in bold underline:
Ferdinand: Vanguard, Reposition
Rath: Def Smoke
LG!Conrad: Wings of Mercy
Altena: Sturdy Stance
Echidna: Rearguard, Drive Atk
Tethys: Worthless
Python: Moonbow, B Tomebreaker
Norne: Reposition, Guardbow
Tethys is the only case being completely worthless fodder wise, but she is a Dancer/Singer, so definitely not worthless as a whole.

3 hours ago, Nym said:

I notice you mention Brave Ike quite often in your post so I'm going to address your point here at once.

Brave Ike outclass everyone with a proper team and support units. His only weakness is the player who controls him. So comparing him to a grail unit isn't really fair.

I used BH!Ike because it is really absurd to compare others to him. He invalidates most Enemy Phase units, but that does not mean most Enemy Phase units have nothing to offer. Travant does not make the best Enemy Phase unit, but most new units do not either. And while he does not have as many useful skills to fodder compared to new units, he does have at least one valuable skill, Flier Guidance, to give away.

And while criticism of Gerome and maybe Haar being useless fodder wise makes sense, exaggerations of them being completely screwed as a whole does not. Gerome is literally the second best Brave Axe flier in the game, right behind his mother. Haar is the third best Brave Axe flier in the game, having only 1 less Atk compared to Gerome. Cherche does have a significant 6 and 7 point Atk lead (Atk Asset 2; Cherche's Axe 4) over Gerome and Haar respectively, but that does not mean Gerome and Haar are trash.

3 hours ago, Nym said:

I have nothing against making dudes the demote, but my point was that maybe they should try to have a little variety in new banners? Because it's getting quite dull, even if Altena wasn't so long ago.

Looking at the past six months, pretty much about half of the demotes are females and half are males.
Ferdinand
Rath
LG!Conrad
Altena
Echidna
Tethys
Python
Norne

— — — — — — —

FF!Narcian and FF!Bartre are probably not going to be meta defining, but they do not need to be and they will most likely be completely usable as combat units. Fodder wise, they are not bad too, since their Weapons are a direct upgrade over Safeguard, Vanguard, and Reprisal Lance, and Slaying Edge and Slaying Lance on Enemy Phase.

Edited March 18, 2020 by XRay

[Lightcosmo]

On the topic of males being bad units, isnt L!Alm an amazing unit? Also, Chrom seems pretty amazing himself, in my opinion. 

[Tybrosion]

22 minutes ago, lightcosmo said:

On the topic of males being bad units, isnt L!Alm an amazing unit? Also, Chrom seems pretty amazing himself, in my opinion. 

Those guys are great because they’re legendaries. IS better treat all legendaries / mythics well, regardless of their gender, if they want and/or expect people to pull for them in droves.

[Nym]

1 hour ago, Baldrick said:

It’s still weird given that premium units usually get several premium skills.

She wasn't the star of the banner, Nils and Leila were. As a result, she had that skill and Guard Lance.

1 hour ago, Baldrick said:

Duo units aren’t inherently premium, they are because IS designs them that way. If Spring Bartre were Spring Bartre&Karla, with the same kit, would that be premium?

Duo units ARE premium. Not all of them have Tier 4 skills, but their very nature is premium. 

If you were to keep both their kit? Well obviously not, they need a duo skill. And possibly something better than Obstruct or Air Orders, Harsh Command + is nice.

1 hour ago, Baldrick said:

The same argument applies. Brave Ike is meta because of his refined weapon.

No it doesn't, you have to spend orbs to merge him. An unmerged Bike is far from being the best unit in the game, even with Bravecina support.

57 minutes ago, XRay said:

Grail units and demotes have valuable fodder too. Just looking at the recent 20 Grail units available for summoning, only like 5 are completely worthless, and most of the useless ones were released like almost a year ago.

  Reveal hidden contents

Itsuki: Worthless
Travant: Flier Guidance
RS!Eir: Temari, Spd Tactic
GG!Jaffar: Minty Cane (not terribly useful, but good for builds where you want maximum Auto-Battle sustainability like Tempest Trials)
Kempf: Fortress Res
Brunnya: Res Smoke
Cormag: Def Opening, Dull Close
Conrad: Barrier Lance, Bracing Stance, Chill Atk
Rolf: Worthless
Astram: Wrath
Rinea: Silver Goblet
Sigrun: Hone Fliers
Death Knight: Close Guard
Kronya: Distant Guard
SR!Fiora: Worthless
SR!Ylger: Flashing Blade
Cynthia: Worthless
BB!Louise: Worthless
DW!Dealthea: Worthless
ASFP!Leo: Sandwiches!, Distant Def

And most of the recent demotes from the last six months are not bad either. High demand and optimal skills in bold underline:
Ferdinand: Vanguard, Reposition
Rath: Def Smoke
LG!Conrad: Wings of Mercy
Altena: Sturdy Stance
Echidna: Rearguard, Drive Atk
Tethys: Worthless
Python: Moonbow, B Tomebreaker
Norne: Reposition, Guardbow
Tethys is the only case being completely worthless fodder wise, but she is a Dancer/Singer, so definitely not worthless as a whole.

...Again, I did not say all Grail units have useless fodder. But recently, a few of them have regular fodder and aren't good in combat (aka no prf).

I understand your point, but having for example Ferdinand having fodder is already common is kind of pointless. If he had an opneing skill or something, I wouldn't complain but both skills are avaliable in the 3/4 stars already, even if Vanguard wasn't 3 stars before.

 

[Baldrick]

 

28 minutes ago, Nym said:

If you were to keep both their kit? Well obviously not,

That was a rhetorical question.

28 minutes ago, Nym said:

No it doesn't, you have to spend orbs to merge him. An unmerged Bike is far from being the best unit in the game, even with Bravecina support.

You don’t need to merge him to refine his weapon. With it, he’s still meta even if he’s not at his full potential.

[XRay]

52 minutes ago, Nym said:

...Again, I did not say all Grail units have useless fodder. But recently, a few of them have regular fodder and aren't good in combat (aka no prf).

Not good in combat and having exclusive Weapons are too separate issues. And most units are decent as combat units even without exclusive Weapons. Exclusive Weapons are absolutely not necessary to do well.

A lot of inheritable Weapons are extremely powerful, particularly ranged ones. Blade tomes are rivaled only by exclusive Slaying tomes. The only exclusive bows rivalling Brave Bow and Firesweep Bow are Argent Bow, Lunar Arc, Meisterbogen, Persecution Bow, and Mirage Longbow.

For melee Weapons, Brave Weapons and Slaying Weapons are not as strong as exclusive Weapons, but they are still pretty good.

Looking at Gerome and Haar in the calculator, their performance is not as good as Cherche's, but it is nowhere near poor or terrible as some people make it out to be once you remove red units from consideration. Their combat performance is not stellar, but it is more than sufficient to do their job.

Challenger List: Against Hard List enemies, no red enemies. Both sides +10 with 6/6/6/6 bonus buffs.

Spoiler

CHALLENGER LIST  
Cherche (5*+10 +atk)  
Weapon: Cherche's Axe  
Special: Moonbow  
A: Death Blow 3  
B: Axebreaker 3  
S: Sturdy Blow 2  
Upgrade Path: 1  
  
Gerome (5*+10)  
Weapon: Brave Axe+  
Special: Moonbow  
A: Death Blow 3  
B: Axebreaker 3  
S: Sturdy Blow 2  
  
Haar (5*+10)  
Weapon: Brave Axe+  
Special: Moonbow  
A: Death Blow 3  
B: Axebreaker 3  
S: Sturdy Blow 2  

 

Edited March 18, 2020 by XRay

[Nym]

26 minutes ago, XRay said:

Not good in combat and having exclusive Weapons are too separate issues. And most units are decent as combat units even without exclusive Weapons. Exclusive Weapons are absolutely not necessary to do well.

Yet the recent grail units with PRF weapons are considered to be the best for combat: Aversa, Brunnya, Fallen Delthea, Izuki, Naesala. Only Winter Cecilia shines despite her lack of PRF weapon but that's due to her class and daggers having a variety of choices to both offense or defense.

26 minutes ago, XRay said:

Looking at Gerome and Haar in the calculator, their performance is not as good as Cherche's, but it is nowhere near poor or terrible as some people make it out to be once you remove red units from consideration. Their combat performance is not stellar, but it is more than sufficient to do their job.

Challenger List: Against Hard List enemies, no red enemies. Both sides +10 with 6/6/6/6 bonus buffs.

The problem with your comparison is that you compare two units who are pretty much use as Enemy Phase unita that both focus on defense with no PRF weapon and no assets versus a unit that has a PRF Brave Axe that can either decide to get even more Attack or get a Panic refine and can have a +Attack Asset. Of course they are going to suck compare to Cherche with just a regular Brave Axe, even with Gerome's higher attack.

But even comparing them to the likes of Beruka or Narcian isn't doing them much justice either. With her refine, Beruka can use Forteress Def/Res 3 or DD4 and be an amazing tank that can tank both physical and magic foes (decently). Narcian is even better in that regard, and he has yet to get a refine.

So unless suddently IS create "adaptive defense" for a new skill or refine, those two are always going to be behind those units.

Edited March 18, 2020 by Nym

[eclipse]

10 hours ago, Nym said:

I have a +10 Gerome, I know how to "fix". It's easy to "fix" those units especially after they get a refine, doesn't change the fact that they got the short end of the stick. It also doesn't change the fact that they are outclassed by plenty of units in both the 4 stars and 5 stars pool.

They aren't meant to redefine the meta (usually).  They're so that everyone gets something to show for the event, assuming they participate in it.  If the best unit was the TT, then what incentive is there to pull for those that look for power creep?  And if Tobin is any indication, it means that they're up for unique weapons in the future.

[Lightcosmo]

2 hours ago, Tybrosion said:

Those guys are great because they’re legendaries. IS better treat all legendaries / mythics well, regardless of their gender, if they want and/or expect people to pull for them in droves.

Oh, I didn't know that, but considering Alm has been out a long time and hasn't been power crept yet says how amazing he is, I think.