What Edelgard means to me…

[vanguard333]

2 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

It sounds like that, but Seteth also states that Edelgard forced her father out of the throne, basically stealing the crown. It's questionable if the substitute was even needed, since it seems more like Edelgard seemed to want to spend more time with Byleth. But neither Ionius nor Edelgard would care for the Church by this point since the Empire will be going to war. 

Then again, Seteth at that point is hardly a reliable narrator. I mean, it's for completely understandable reasons and he means well, but he's not exactly in the mood to be embracing technicalities at that point, nor exactly would he be fully aware of what's going on in the empire. I think Ferdinand's testimony is the more reliable of the two at that point. 

Oh, I don't think the substitution was needed either; if anything, Byleth's position as a professor makes their presence even more of a technicality than that of a random church official.

As for Ionius not caring about the church, is he even aware of Edelgard's plans? I imagine he's well aware that she intends to lock up all the seven nobles involved in the insurrection that don't bend the knee to her, since he hopes she'll be a stronger leader than he was and make up for his weakness, but does he know about her plans to go to war?

[Darkmoon6789]

5 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

Then again, Seteth at that point is hardly a reliable narrator. I mean, it's for completely understandable reasons and he means well, but he's not exactly in the mood to be embracing technicalities at that point, nor exactly would he be fully aware of what's going on in the empire. I think Ferdinand's testimony is the more reliable of the two at that point. 

Oh, I don't think the substitution was needed either; if anything, Byleth's position as a professor makes their presence even more of a technicality than that of a random church official.

As for Ionius not caring about the church, is he even aware of Edelgard's plans? I imagine he's well aware that she intends to lock up all the seven nobles involved in the insurrection that don't bend the knee to her, since he hopes she'll be a stronger leader than he was and make up for his weakness, but does he know about her plans to go to war?

I believe he is aware, considering he was the one who told Edelgard about the Archbishop being a dragon, Edelgard doesn't force him to give her the throne, he gives it because he knows he's going to die soon anyway and he wants to give the nobles responsible for the insurrection the middle finger

Edited March 19, 2020 by Darkmoon6789

[vanguard333]

1 minute ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

I believe he is aware, considering he was the one who told Edelgard about the Archbishop being a dragon, Edelgard doesn't force him to give her the throne, he gives it because he knows he's going to die soon anyway and he wants to give the nobles responsible for the insurrection the middle finger

He told her about Rhea being a dragon? When? I thought she learned that from TWSITD? How would Ionius have known about that?

I remember there being info passed down from emperor to emperor, but that info was that the Seiros vs Nemesis conflict was personal rather than holy, and that the relics were manmade. Nothing to do with Rhea. 

[Moltz23]

23 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

As for Ionius not caring about the church, is he even aware of Edelgard's plans?

Maybe? It is mentioned the whole coronation was a huge secret to the point Duke Aegir and Ferdinand didn't know about it, so there's a chance.

13 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

I remember there being info passed down from emperor to emperor, but that info was that the Seiros vs Nemesis conflict was personal rather than holy, and that the relics were manmade. Nothing to do with Rhea. 

Edelgard believes Seiros' family has been ruling Fodlan, so with that knowledge it's plausible to assume the current archbishop (Rhea) is one of the Children of the Goddess.

 

[Hardric62]

2 hours ago, Jotari said:

By 

A) Receiving money from willing donors

B) Having an annual, prepared, mock battle 

C) Saving imperial citizens from a massacre

D) The pope expecting an invitation to the coronation.

These are all things the empire can, if they choose, stop (and Edelgard explicitly does in one case). The church has no authority to enforce these things (well it's always they're own choice to accept donations, but the empire could outlaw donating to the church). The empire and the church are interacting as soverign entities. They both hold sway and influence over each other. That's how foreign relations work.

 

With all the diplomacy I can muster, you grasp on history is... Okay, I can't be nice, you just fail history, and politics, forever.

 

First for the thing which staerted it all, Southern Church isn't a different religion, it's a political branch, aka an archbishop managing church in that place for the pope. When they are ousted, no difference in creed pops up, no actual, in-depth change happen in the way faith is carried out by people: to continue my analogy, all of them are still Catholics, they still answer to the pope. France secured the right to name the bishops in the kingdom for the royal power in the 13-14th centuries, and I dare you to say it was the end of any sway the Catholic Church wold have within the country. This is the sort of conflict the Empire has with the Church of Seiros. But Rhea/the pope is still there, there is still a relationship. They're still all following the same creed. The morale and social influence religion holds within a country, especially a medieval one, is still there. No new religion has been created here like in your Henry VIII example.

And from that point:

A) Stop all individual faithfuls of doing such a thing. In the equivalent of the medieval times. Forget the Mole Men, yours is a far bloodier and nastier war.

B) Refuse to collaborate with Fodlan's premier academy, fonded in the name of assuring security of the whole continent, throwing a massive diplomatic crisis along the way. Oh, and refusing a 'request' of the continent's religion. Are you even thinking about the consequences of the actions you 'stop'?

C) Knights can go wherever they want in Foldan as long as it is defined as Church business or that they are asked for. Projection of military strength like that is a massive Big Deal, you don't just say 'No' without consequences.

D) Okay, now I know you are trolling. Pope 'invited' to a coronation? That's usually called a sacre, it is the sort of things which show people the sovereign has this thing called the 'divine right to rule'. In Europe? Only one ducker had the pope doing that for him. The Holy Roman Emperor. Again, Big Deal. As in, Casus  Belli Big Deal, because ditching the pope/archbishop is an as good as any way to demonstrate, and a pretty spectacular one actually, that you deny their authority. Which usually one of the last steps before this nasty thing called war. Remind me when Edelgard ditches this sacre thing already in the chronology?

[omegaxis1]

7 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

Then again, Seteth at that point is hardly a reliable narrator. I mean, it's for completely understandable reasons and he means well, but he's not exactly in the mood to be embracing technicalities at that point, nor exactly would he be fully aware of what's going on in the empire. I think Ferdinand's testimony is the more reliable of the two at that point. 

Oh, I don't think the substitution was needed either; if anything, Byleth's position as a professor makes their presence even more of a technicality than that of a random church official.

As for Ionius not caring about the church, is he even aware of Edelgard's plans? I imagine he's well aware that she intends to lock up all the seven nobles involved in the insurrection that don't bend the knee to her, since he hopes she'll be a stronger leader than he was and make up for his weakness, but does he know about her plans to go to war?

While I'm not saying that you're wrong in that Seteth is not the most reliable case, since we know for a fact that Ionius did not lose his crown forcibly. But because this was something done not under the will of Rhea, it's not something the Church actually approved. As mentioned above, the archbishop being present there is a sacré, making it so that the Emperor is crowned under the watchful eye of the goddess and is by her will. Remember that the religious texts states that Seiros, as the goddess's child, makes emperors of mortals, and as the goddess's wings, elevates people. In the Church's eyes, Edelgard is not the true emperor of Adrestia because the Church never approved it. However, the case of Edelgard being the Emperor is a result of the other major noble houses accepting and backing Edelgard up. 

Quote

Ferdinand: Half of the Empire's six great noble families have declared their support for Edelgard. Of the other three, Lord Vestra was assassinated. Hubert, his son, will succeed him. Bernadetta's father, Count Varley, is under house arrest. His wife is now supporting Edelgard. And my father…he was stripped of his role as prime minister. As as result, House Aegir has lost all of its power, all of its land. We have lost everything. I…I… What do I do?

So simply put, she's the emperor because the other nobles overall support her as emperor. 

And yeah, Ionius definitely seems to be aware of Edelgard's plans, since he says that he leaves the fate of "Fodlan" in her hands. It's a case of how he's referring to the entire continent, not just Adrestia. 

Edited March 19, 2020 by omegaxis1

[vanguard333]

35 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

While I'm not saying that you're wrong in that Seteth is not the most reliable case, since we know for a fact that Ionius did not lose his crown forcibly. But because this was something done not under the will of Rhea, it's not something the Church actually approved. As mentioned above, the archbishop being present there is a sacré, making it so that the Emperor is crowned under the watchful eye of the goddess and is by her will. Remember that the religious texts states that Seiros, as the goddess's child, makes emperors of mortals, and as the goddess's wings, elevates people. In the Church's eyes, Edelgard is not the true emperor of Adrestia because the Church never approved it. However, the case of Edelgard being the Emperor is a result of the other major noble houses accepting and backing Edelgard up. 

True. I'm just saying that, apparently, Edelgard did follow the rules for ascending to the throne; albeit by technicality.

After all, the whole reason Byleth's there in the Crimson Flower is so that it's technically official.

 

36 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

And yeah, Ionius definitely seems to be aware of Edelgard's plans, since he says that he leaves the fate of "Fodlan" in her hands. It's a case of how he's referring to the entire continent, not just Adrestia. 

Ah. Thanks. I agree; that does indicate that he's aware of her plans. 

[Hardric62]

10 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

Ah. Thanks. I agree; that does indicate that he's aware of her plans.

 

The very fact the archbishop is so snubbed is a dead giveaway. Drastic breaks of traditions old enough to be stronger than laws, said breaking being barely covered by technicalities (if it even is), rarely foreshadow nice times.

[omegaxis1]

8 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

True. I'm just saying that, apparently, Edelgard did follow the rules for ascending to the throne; albeit by technicality.

After all, the whole reason Byleth's there in the Crimson Flower is so that it's technically official.

Not quite. The "technicality" makes no sense. You can't sub for the ascension of the throne like that. Since again, the archbishop acts as the voice of the goddess, acting as their will. Them needing to be present is the tradition. So what Edelgard did is breaking tradition, which makes sense, as she isn't trying to be loyal to the Church anymore. 

So it still goes that the Church would not view the ascension as legitimate. 

[vanguard333]

11 minutes ago, Hardric62 said:

The very fact the archbishop is so snubbed is a dead giveaway. Drastic breaks of traditions old enough to be stronger than laws, said breaking being barely covered by technicalities (if it even is), rarely foreshadow nice times.

To be fair, it could be interpreted as the Emperor putting aside tradition for the sake of getting his daughter on the throne. 

Interestingly, when Edelgard comes to request the throne, we get this exchange:

Edelgard: Father, forgive me for asking this of you. I know how much pain you're in--- how the burden of the throne weighs heavily on you--- and so---"

Ionius: There is no need to apologize, Edelgard. You must know... that I do not have much time left in this world. The time has come.

His main concern is being able to get his daughter on the throne before he passes on, so that he can leave the empire in much more capable hands than his, and also for his daughter's sake. 

Furthermore, the emperor reacts with surprise when Edelgard points out, "The archbishop would normally act as witness, but my professor will fill that role instead". It's clear from the conversation that she's the one who has all the rules in her head; Ionius is just concerned with getting the crown on her head ASAP. 

So, I honestly think that it's both; he's aware of her plans, but his only real concern is getting her on the throne in the first place. 

 

1 minute ago, omegaxis1 said:

Not quite. The "technicality" makes no sense. You can't sub for the ascension of the throne like that. Since again, the archbishop acts as the voice of the goddess, acting as their will. Them needing to be present is the tradition. So what Edelgard did is breaking tradition, which makes sense, as she isn't trying to be loyal to the Church anymore. 

So it still goes that the Church would not view the ascension as legitimate. 

Then how come it's regarded as legitimate in the Crimson Flower route? 

[omegaxis1]

Just now, vanguard333 said:

Then how come it's regarded as legitimate in the Crimson Flower route? 

Um... it's only considered legit by the support of the other nobles. It's not just CF, it's every route. And CF is the route where Edelgard defeats the Church, so she basically no longer has to go about their traditions. 

Edelgard has and is all about breaking tradition, cause she feels that the traditions have grown toxic. 

[Darkmoon6789]

1 minute ago, vanguard333 said:

To be fair, it could be interpreted as the Emperor putting aside tradition for the sake of getting his daughter on the throne. 

Interestingly, when Edelgard comes to request the throne, we get this exchange:

Edelgard: Father, forgive me for asking this of you. I know how much pain you're in--- how the burden of the throne weighs heavily on you--- and so---"

Ionius: There is no need to apologize, Edelgard. You must know... that I do not have much time left in this world. The time has come.

His main concern is being able to get his daughter on the throne before he passes on, so that he can leave the empire in much more capable hands than his, and also for his daughter's sake. 

Furthermore, the emperor reacts with surprise when Edelgard points out, "The archbishop would normally act as witness, but my professor will fill that role instead". It's clear from the conversation that she's the one who has all the rules in her head; Ionius is just concerned with getting the crown on her head ASAP. 

So, I honestly think that it's both; he's aware of her plans, but his only real concern is getting her on the throne in the first place. 

 

Then how come it's regarded as legitimate in the Crimson Flower route? 

I would say that her ascension is more legitimate than if she would have ascended to the title of emperor in the presence of the Archbishop as Byleth has a direct connection to the goddess and therefore has more right to speak for her then Rhea ever did.

In this sense Crimson flower Edelgard has direct divine support

[vanguard333]

53 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Um... it's only considered legit by the support of the other nobles. It's not just CF, it's every route. And CF is the route where Edelgard defeats the Church, so she basically no longer has to go about their traditions. 

Edelgard has and is all about breaking tradition, cause she feels that the traditions have grown toxic. 

True; I guess we didn't ever really hear what the church had to say about her ascension in the Crimson Flower route. I could've sworn that we did though. 

 

52 minutes ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

I would say that her ascension is more legitimate than if she would have ascended to the title of emperor in the presence of the Archbishop as Byleth has a direct connection to the goddess and therefore has more right to speak for her then Rhea ever did.

In this sense Crimson flower Edelgard has direct divine support

True, except for the fact that the ascension only happens after Byleth gains Sothis' power and can no longer speak with her; meaning that Byleth's acting completely on their own. 

[Darkmoon6789]

3 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

True; I guess we didn't ever really hear what the church had to say about her ascension in the Crimson Flower route. I could've sworn that we did though. 

 

True, except for the fact that the ascension only happens after Byleth gains Sothis' power and can no longer speak with her; meaning that Byleth's acting completely on their own. 

Well, you can still actually marry Sothis in crimson flower, where she reveals she never truly left. Plus, I think the implication is that Byleth and Sothis merge after the forbidden spell incident, so you know way they are one and the same.

Apparently she doesn't need the crest stone to be a presence in Byleths mind

[vanguard333]

6 minutes ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

Well, you can still actually marry Sothis in crimson flower, where she reveals she never truly left. 

Yeah; I always found that weird, because it directly contradicts her telling him in part 1 that they won't be able to speak to each other anymore. 

Edited March 20, 2020 by vanguard333

[Darkmoon6789]

1 minute ago, vanguard333 said:

Yeah; I always found that weird, because it directly contradicts her telling him in part 1 that they won't be able to speak to each other anymore. 

Yeah, I can't say I can explain it, many things about Sothis seem to defy the laws of reality and logic. I sometimes wonder if she was truly a divine being, or just a powerful Dragon. 

I do think that even the merged Byleth has still inherited the power of the Progenitor God and is therefore the closest the world has to a true divine representative. Which ironically means that Edelgard do have the goddess on her side in crimson flower.

I think that Rhea failed to understand one thing, by this point Byleth and Sothis are one and the same. I guess she couldn't comprehend the idea that the goddess might support her enemy

[vanguard333]

1 hour ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

Yeah, I can't say I can explain it, many things about Sothis seem to defy the laws of reality and logic. I sometimes wonder if she was truly a divine being, or just a powerful Dragon. 

It's not the defying of laws of reality that bugs me; it's the defying of internal consistency. 

As for the whole "divine being or just powerful dragon" I think the point of it is to be ambiguous; she's certainly far more powerful than FE dragons we've seen before, and the more mysterious nature of her abilities and origins suggests she is something above them. 

[Jotari]

14 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

Oh? Did you miss the part of how it can still ban nations from tech advancement? Or how about how they would send people to reclaim a Relic by force if necessary from an Imperial noble? Also, why does the Knights of Seiros have to save a village from a massacre? It's in Imperial territory, meaning that it's the Empire's job to handle what goes on, and yet the Knights of Seiros decides to do it themselves. What gives them the right to do that? 

And why does the Empire have to concede allowing the Church to hold their battles on their territory? Given how there's tension with the Church and Empire, the Empire could easily refuse, could they not? And yet, they have to do so.

Yes, the Empire could refuse. But they choose not to (for obvious reasons, especially in Remire village). If they did refuse the church would be pissed, but there's nothing they can do. Because the church has no authority in the empire.

[omegaxis1]

1 minute ago, Jotari said:

Yes, the Empire could refuse. But they choose not to (for obvious reasons, especially in Remire village). If they did refuse the church would be pissed, but there's nothing they can do. Because the church has no authority in the empire.

I recommend you take a look at what @Hardric62 said earlier. 

Trying to defy the Church, the institution of the major religion of Fodlan, is a dumb thing to do and will only result in things being worse off for the Empire. Trying to act like the Church cannot do anything is downright silly, especially since you absolutely ignored how the Church DID actually intend to reclaim a Relic from an Imperial noble by FORCE.

[Jotari]

1 minute ago, omegaxis1 said:

I recommend you take a look at what @Hardric62 said earlier. 

Trying to defy the Church, the institution of the major religion of Fodlan, is a dumb thing to do and will only result in things being worse off for the Empire. Trying to act like the Church cannot do anything is downright silly, especially since you absolutely ignored how the Church DID actually intend to reclaim a Relic from an Imperial noble by FORCE.

But that's exactly what Edelgard did do. And then she decided to kill people on top of it.

Which Relic are you referring to?

Edited March 20, 2020 by Jotari

[omegaxis1]

17 minutes ago, Jotari said:

But that's exactly what Edelgard did do. And then she decided to kill people on top of it.

Which Relic are you referring to?

Dude, are you even listening to yourself at this point?

And look up Yuri/Constance's paralogue. It's a Relic that works with Yuri's Crest which an Imperial noble had, and the Church had Constance go get it for them, as they believe the Relics rightfully belong to them. 

[Jotari]

18 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Dude, are you even listening to yourself at this point?

And look up Yuri/Constance's paralogue. It's a Relic that works with Yuri's Crest which an Imperial noble had, and the Church had Constance go get it for them, as they believe the Relics rightfully belong to them. 

They didn't take that relic by force. They sent Constance to negotiate it and when they arrived the duke was under attack by demonic beasts made by the Agarthans. He handed it over willingly afterwards in appreciation. In fact that whole situation is an excellent example of how the Church can't simply take what they want. The whole reason they send Constance is because they believe she can get it diplomatically with her connections. The paralogue makes it very clear that the Empire can hold onto the relic if it wishes.

Edited March 20, 2020 by Jotari

[Hardric62]

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

But that's exactly what Edelgard did do. And then she decided to kill people on top of it.

 

Okay, one more time, slowly: She flaunted these rules right before launching her war. That means the consequences of this defiance of traditions and the big morale influence of the continent kinda faded away in the background because of the outright war against said big morale influence. I hope there are not too many big words for you here.

 

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

They didn't take that relic by force. They sent Constance to negotiate it and when they arrived the duke was under attack by demonic beasts made by the Agarthans. He handed it over willingly afterwards in appreciation. In fact that whole situation is an excellent example of how the Church can't simply take what they want. The whole reason they send Constance is because they believe she can get it diplomatically with her connections. The paralogue makes it very clear that the Empire can hold onto the relic if it wishes.

 

No, it makes it clear that Constance was the easier option, and was only that easy thanks to the Mole Men. Sylvain's support with Byleth and this paralogues already show that the Church considers the Relics as under its juridiction to some degree. And Sylvain said it was a close thing for the Gautiers, despite being able to wield the Lance of Ruin. An Aubin's Relic Gerth couldn't use? He wouldn't have had this excuse, so I guess harsher and harsher pressure would have come if the 'carrot option' failed. Also, if the Church was such a powerless useless thing, why would this Relic be such a valuable bargaining tool exactly? Why waste on an organization as irrelevant as the one you describe?

[Jotari]

23 minutes ago, Hardric62 said:

 

Okay, one more time, slowly: She flaunted these rules right before launching her war. That means the consequences of this defiance of traditions and the big morale influence of the continent kinda faded away in the background because of the outright war against said big morale influence. I hope there are not too many big words for you here.

And I think the very fact that she was able to launch a direct war against the church means defying the church in other ways is evidently possible.

23 minutes ago, Hardric62 said:

No, it makes it clear that Constance was the easier option, and was only that easy thanks to the Mole Men. Sylvain's support with Byleth and this paralogues already show that the Church considers the Relics as under its juridiction to some degree. And Sylvain said it was a close thing for the Gautiers, despite being able to wield the Lance of Ruin. An Aubin's Relic Gerth couldn't use? He wouldn't have had this excuse, so I guess harsher and harsher pressure would have come if the 'carrot option' failed. Also, if the Church was such a powerless useless thing, why would this Relic be such a valuable bargaining tool exactly? Why waste on an organization as irrelevant as the one you describe?

That the church would take the relic by force is conjecture. What is not conjecture is that the church believes it belongs to them by virtue of them being the Church. The empire believes it belongs to them because they received it from Dagda. The Church's claim to ownership does not take precedent over the empires claim to ownership. The Church has to send a representative to try and negotiate them giving it to the church. They cannot, and do not, simply take it by force. The empire knows the church wants it and is prepared to use it to exert influence over the church. Duke Gerth gives it up willingly however, even though he knows that's not in the empire's best interests. That's what happens. Saying if that didn't happen the church would have send knights to mug an imperial duke is fanfiction.

[jawaunw]

6 minutes ago, Jotari said:

And I think the very fact that she was able to launch a direct war against the church means defying the church in other ways is evidently possible.

That the church would take the relic by force is conjecture. What is not conjecture is that the church believes it belongs to them by virtue of them being the Church. The empire believes it belongs to them because they received it from Dagda. The Church's claim to ownership does not take precedent over the empires claim to ownership. The Church has to send a representative to try and negotiate them giving it to the church. They cannot, and do not, simply take it by force. The empire knows the church wants it and is prepared to use it to exert influence over the church. Duke Gerth gives it up willingly however, even though he knows that's not in the empire's best interests. That's what happens. Saying if that didn't happen the church would have send knights to mug an imperial duke is fanfiction.

But that's the thing about The Church most of the information we have from it is either flat out lies that people take too seriously or complete head Canon The church needs a DLC route realistically for us to have any actual basis

 

You either believe edelguard story which has so many holes in it you can make Swiss cheese look embarrassed

Or Rhea who can't be trusted fully except the fact that the those slitter in the dark agreed at Nemesis was a bandit

 

This is where a lot of the moral gray comes in at in this game Miss information and not understanding what we're giving

Well we can't trust everything we make up stuff That's why it's a lot easier for me to think that each route every character is a different character entirely

With that I can completely believe that Rhea did everything edelguard Edelguard set in the crimson flower route it's in completely different timeline

 

Just like I can believe that edelguard there's a complete monster in the azure moon route that wants to take over the world

the characters aren't completely consistent in each timeline so I can't justify say that they are all the same

Well I think about edelguard is a strong-willed character that get the job done in her route only in another route I think she's a complete monster

That's exactly why I don't like rhea and say that she's simple and three route she's kidnapped and we have to save her like a princess she's not a character and the only time she becomes a character and she's a villain who we only see is insane it needs to be put down like a dog

That's why I like Claude the most because he's the only character that is truly consistent throughout the whole story