What Edelgard means to me…

[Jotari]

3 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Let's not compare the magnitude of IRL where we have intercontinental relationships to this that is a closed off continent with 3 nations, all focused around the Church. Okay? This is the critical flaw of you trying to make IRL comparisons. It doesn't work as well as you're trying to think.

You are completely ignoring the fact that the Church literally has the right to bar a nation from scientific advancements, given how autopsies, telescopes, and the metal molding printer were banned from being produced. Nations not allowed to make tech or nations like Faerghus not even allowed to use oil as a resource, all of which proves the kind of power the church holds, even on the Empire still. 

And if you have the Church hold such power and influence on the other nations, then waging war against the Church WILL cause conflict to rise between the Empire and the other nations. Like, stop pretending this isn't going to happen. If Edelgard left the other nations alone, all that means is that Church sympathizers and Empire haters will simply use the Kingdom and/or Alliance to wage war on the Empire, destroying all of Edelgard's work. 

That's conjecture. Show me the route where Edelgard doesn't go to war and Rhea responds with an invasion. We have a thread for speculating just that. The general conclusion is that even if she was indignant enough to do it (doubtful), she might be able to get Faerghus on side but there's no way the Alliance would agree to it without a threat to themselves.

Edited March 19, 2020 by Jotari

[Silver-Haired Maiden]

29 minutes ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

I think the fact that people can view Edelgard in such a radically different light is part of what makes her such an interesting character, I will say that I don't even know her certain if she's in the right or not. I think Edelgard herself will also question whenever she made the right decision and struggle with quite a bit of guilt over the war, especially as she gets older. But this to me makes her very human. Maybe she did make a mistake and maybe she did become a tyrant unintentionally, but I do think that if she realises this she is a good enough person to try to correct this course. Of course, not everyone will like her for what she did and some people will resent her. 

But the fact is that Edelgard might have been a Mary Sue if it was absolutely clear she was in the right and that she was like by everyone, the fact that she is fallible and prone to mistakes despite her good intentions is what makes her interesting. 

Oh don't get me wrong, I may not agree with her but I still love her as a character. I completely agree that it wasn't her intention to bring more harm than good to the world, I think she absolutely thought she was doing the right thing and that makes her sympathetic. I also agree that Edelgard would be the type to try and correct course if she saw that her actions were having the opposite effect from what she imagined, at least in CF. Of course at the same time she's so stubborn that it might be hard to convince her of that. 

[vanguard333]

17 minutes ago, Jotari said:

One of my biggest complaints with Code Geass is that the ending that everyone loves is rather similar to the Three Houses endings. Namely I don't actually buy that peace will last more than a month.

I thought people were extremely divided on basically every aspect of Code Geass's ending? 

Anyway, I agree that I doubt the peace in Code Geass would last more than a month. From what I've read about it, it's almost nonsensical. 

Spoiler

So, his big plan is to take over Brittania, seem so cartoonishly evil that the whole world is united against him, then have Suzaku kill him as the new Zero? What?! I thought he wanted to topple the Brittanian Empire, not simply leave it with a power vacuum? It just doesn't make any sense to me as a plan. 

However, while I have only seen the ending to one route (Crimson Flower), I will say that I could but that ending, aside from the whole, "We dealt with TWSITD offscreen", mainly because, if I recall correctly, it didn't shy away from the fact that trying to rebuild Fodlan and overhaul the political system was going to be a long, grueling process, and that there would still be some minor conflict.

Spoiler

And at least it doesn't end will Edelgard arranging her own death in an ill-considered attempt to unite all of Fodlan

 

[omegaxis1]

4 minutes ago, Jotari said:

That's conjecture. Show me the route where Edelgard doesn't go to war and Rhea responds with an invasion. We have a thread for speculating just that. The general conclusion is that even if she was indignant enough to do it (doubtful), she might be able to get Faerghus on side but there's no way the Alliance would agree to it without a threat to themselves.

Rhea escapes in Crimson Flower and enlists Faerghus's help to wage war against the Empire. And for that matter, Dimitri can only be officially crowned as King of Faerghus if Rhea, the archbishop, is the one that crowns him, hence why Dimitri is the king in CF, whereas in the other routes, he is still the crown prince. And in Chapter 18 of CF, Catherine suggests they go into exile and make another plan. 

Or how about what Felix says it the main reason people are apparently following Dimitri around, despite his madness? Cause people either love the Church or hate the Empire. 

It ain't conjecture. It's literal fact. After wars, there will ALWAYS be serious tensions and problems with relations. And with the Church's influence, it will raise hostility toward the Empire from the Kingdom and Alliance.

[Silver-Haired Maiden]

19 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Rhea escapes in Crimson Flower and enlists Faerghus's help to wage war against the Empire. And for that matter, Dimitri can only be officially crowned as King of Faerghus if Rhea, the archbishop, is the one that crowns him, hence why Dimitri is the king in CF, whereas in the other routes, he is still the crown prince. And in Chapter 18 of CF, Catherine suggests they go into exile and make another plan. 

Or how about what Felix says it the main reason people are apparently following Dimitri around, despite his madness? Cause people either love the Church or hate the Empire. 

It ain't conjecture. It's literal fact. After wars, there will ALWAYS be serious tensions and problems with relations. And with the Church's influence, it will raise hostility toward the Empire from the Kingdom and Alliance.

He said where Edelgard doesn't go to war, meaning CF doesn't count as Edelgard had already declared war. As for Dimitri you are wrong. He was not crowned due in part to age and in part to Cornelia in the other routes. In CF he's crowned king because Cornelia can't institute her coup and have him branded a traitor.

[Jotari]

23 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Rhea escapes in Crimson Flower and enlists Faerghus's help to wage war against the Empire. And for that matter, Dimitri can only be officially crowned as King of Faerghus if Rhea, the archbishop, is the one that crowns him, hence why Dimitri is the king in CF, whereas in the other routes, he is still the crown prince. And in Chapter 18 of CF, Catherine suggests they go into exile and make another plan. 

Or how about what Felix says it the main reason people are apparently following Dimitri around, despite his madness? Cause people either love the Church or hate the Empire. 

It ain't conjecture. It's literal fact. After wars, there will ALWAYS be serious tensions and problems with relations. And with the Church's influence, it will raise hostility toward the Empire from the Kingdom and Alliance.

Yes, after the empire started the war. With a battle in which the crown prince of Faerghus was personally involved in. Again I'm going to ask what you think I'm saying? Because you're evidently wildly misinterpreting me if this is your response.

Edited March 19, 2020 by Jotari

[omegaxis1]

Just now, Silver-Haired Maiden said:

He said where Edelgard doesn't go to war, meaning CF doesn't count as Edelgard had already declared war. As for Dimitri you are wrong. He was not crowned due in part to age and in part to Cornelia in the other routes. In CF he's crowned king because Cornelia can't institute her coup and have him branded a traitor.

I'm referring to how if Edelgard simply beat the Church and didn't bother with invading the other nations. It would result in the other nations being in a more hostile state against the Empire, with future conflict inevitable. 

Also, it isn't just the age thing. Gilbert himself stated in AM that Dimitri is still only the crown prince, and only when the archbishop officially crowns him will he ever truly be the next king of Faerghus. Rhea isn't taken in CF, hence why she can crown Dimitri as the next king when he came of age.

Just now, Jotari said:

Yes, after the empire started. With a battle in which the crown prince of Faerghus was personally involved in. Again I'm going to ask what you think I'm saying? Because you're evidently wildly misinterpreting me if this is your response.

I think you're trying to act like the Empire ousting the Southern Church is meant to mean something, when it legit does not.

[Jotari]

Just now, omegaxis1 said:

I think you're trying to act like the Empire ousting the Southern Church is meant to mean something, when it legit does not.

Why is it in the game then?

[omegaxis1]

Just now, Jotari said:

Why is it in the game then?

A history lesson. 

[Jotari]

1 minute ago, omegaxis1 said:

A history lesson. 

Yes, detailing the backdrop of the game for the current political situation (in which the Empire is not subservient to the church).

3 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

I'm referring to how if Edelgard simply beat the Church and didn't bother with invading the other nations. It would result in the other nations being in a more hostile state against the Empire, with future conflict inevitable. 

And why are you talking about that when no one else is?

Edited March 19, 2020 by Jotari

[omegaxis1]

1 minute ago, Jotari said:

Yes, detailing the backdrop of the game for the current political situation (in which the Empire is not subservient to the church).

And why are you talking about that when no one else is?

Maybe you oughta start making your point clear instead of making questions and then start asking why we don't get what you're saying? You have a real bad habit about that. Maybe stop that and actually say your point from now on.

And no, the Church again, still maintains influence with the Empire's politics and involves itself. In fact, your talk of the Southern Church only proves how the Central Church, the main Church, maintained ties, even if strained. No ties were severed, no influence was lost. 

[Lightcosmo]

5 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Maybe you oughta start making your point clear instead of making questions and then start asking why we don't get what you're saying? You have a real bad habit about that. Maybe stop that and actually say your point from now on.

I personally could care less about the conversation at hand, but this is a bit unfair. As this is the internet, misinterpretations are going to be made. You can't express what your really saying and because the other side can't read minds, it's going to happen, alot. You are getting very aggressive over something that is pretty much out of peoples control. There's no need to be so rude.

On topic: Edelgard is alright to me. Not bad, not great, but I can understand where people come from on both sides.

Edited March 19, 2020 by lightcosmo

[omegaxis1]

1 minute ago, lightcosmo said:

I personally could care less about the conversation at hand, but this is a bit unfair. As this is the internet, misinterpretations are going to be made. You can't express what your really saying and because the other side can't read minds, it's going to happen, alot. You are getting very aggressive over something that is pretty much out of peoples control. There's no need to be so rude.

Except he's been repeating the same thing and acting like he doesn't get why we don't understand. And this isn't the first time either. 

[Silver-Haired Maiden]

Don't reach. We both know Cornelia was the actual reason he didn't become king. Don't blame Rhea and the church for everything.

 

Anyway, back on topic. While I appreciate what Edelgard was trying to do, and again I appreciate her as a character, I feel that CF would have greatly benefitted from having more disagreements and discussion among the characters about Edelgard and her actions. Not just in supports either, but actually in the story. Someone like Linhardt would have been perfect for this because it's in his character to do so. Also it would help give some importance to the BE Strike Force beyond just "most of them are here because they fight good and we're friends". Ferdinand being the exception. Did I ever mention how much I love Ferdinand?

[Lightcosmo]

Just now, omegaxis1 said:

Except he's been repeating the same thing and acting like he doesn't get why we don't understand. And this isn't the first time either. 

This isn't strange when you can't have an actual conversation with someone. But the way your putting things are a bit harsh, in my opinion. If you disagree, that's one thing, but being rude is probably not something you should be okay with. Anyways, I just thought It fair to mention before the mods do instead.

[omegaxis1]

Just now, Silver-Haired Maiden said:

Don't reach. We both know Cornelia was the actual reason he didn't become king. Don't blame Rhea and the church for everything.

What? 

It's not a reach. It's literally what is said in the actual dialogue. I'm talking about how Dimitri is able to be crowned king in CF is not just cause of the lack of coup, but because Rhea isn't kidnapped. As I said, to be officially crowned, the archbishop crowns the next king. 

And what does this have to do with blaming Rhea or the Church? What? I'm talking about the political influence and power they hold in nations. Crowning the next king of Faerghus isn't that different in comparison to the archbishop needing to be present for the crowning of the next emperor of Adrestia. 

[Jotari]

21 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Maybe you oughta start making your point clear instead of making questions and then start asking why we don't get what you're saying? You have a real bad habit about that. Maybe stop that and actually say your point from now on.

And no, the Church again, still maintains influence with the Empire's politics and involves itself. In fact, your talk of the Southern Church only proves how the Central Church, the main Church, maintained ties, even if strained. No ties were severed, no influence was lost. 

Do you want to get personal with this? I personally don't think there's a need, I've been tempted to say you're willfully misinterpreting things to stir the conversation in specific directions, but I've not done so in good faith. In my view I've been pretty clear with what I'm saying.

12 hours ago, Jotari said:

Church was ousted from the empire a hundred years before the game began.

 

12 hours ago, Jotari said:

Of course. Having relations with the institutes of the land is inevitable (be they positive, negative or has described here, strained). England continued having Catholics even after the whole Henry VIII thing. People still followed the church because they wanted to. The point is the church's independent political control had been removed and replaced with a branch of the imperial command.

 

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

Yes, the Empire has interactions with the church. They're not North Korea, shutting themselves off from the rest of the world. What exactly are you trying to say? Or more pertinently what do you think I'm trying to say? Because I was never suggesting the Empire had zero relationship with the church since the southern church was ousted. The church does not control the empire. Arundal can do whatever he wants with his money, the empire allows the church to have a historical reenactment in their land and doesn't stop the church from helping with a massacre in their borders. None of this means the empire is subservient to the church. The closes would be their ceremonial role in witnessing the newest emperor's coronation, which Edelgard and her father both completely ignore. Had she ignored it without a war the church would no doubt be pissed in being shafted, but it's not like they could have done anything about it. So again, what are you actually trying to say?

 

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

Yes, because the Church is a political identity that they're sharing a continent with. Influence, not control. The USA holds a massive amount of political influence with every single country on the planet. Doesn't mean we should all gang up and invade them unannounced. Countries interact with other countries. That's what international relations are. The church is not commanding the empire to do anything, and if it did the empire could just ignore them (like Edelgard does for her coronation, to no one's shock). The fact that basically no element of her country rebels against her is a testament how little control of the country the church actually is. Can't remember exactly, but I think even that territory Thales seems to be purposefully going full dictator on still remains part of the empire and has no issue with the whole war on the divine authority.

 

24 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Yes, detailing the backdrop of the game for the current political situation (in which the Empire is not subservient to the church).

 

The reason why I keep asking what you think I'm saying is that I've explicitly stated it several times in several different, non ambiguous ways. How do you think I could have stated it more clearly? Because I also asked you that to ensure my point was coming across and you dodged the question initially. Me asking you what you think I'm saying isn't some kind of ploy, it's me actually trying to make you understand what I'm saying as you somehow aren't understanding what appears to me to be very clear.

Edited March 19, 2020 by Jotari

[omegaxis1]

5 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Do you want to get personal with this? I personally don't think there's a need, I've been tempted to say you're willfully misinterpreting things to stir the conversation in specific directions, but I've not done so in good faith. In my view I've been pretty clear with what I'm saying.

The reason why I keep asking what you think I'm saying is that I've explicitly stated it several times in several different, non ambiguous ways. How do you think I could have stated it more clearly? Because I also asked you that to ensure my point was coming across and you dodged the question initially. Me asking you what you think I'm saying isn't some kind of ploy, it's me actually trying to make you understand what I'm saying as you somehow aren't understanding what appears to me to be very clear.

In which case, you don't seem to understand what I've been saying in regards to the political power and influence the Church holds over nations. It's not a matter of controlling nations, but the fact that the Church can intervene and influence over political matters and such.

[Ottservia]

2 hours ago, Silver-Haired Maiden said:

For the Sasuke comparison, I'd like to point out that he's very obviously portrayed as in the wrong for 90% of the show. Haven't seen Code Geass so can't comment there.

Funny thing about that Kishimoto actually has stated in an interview that Sasuke was right and only ended the series the way he did simply because he wanted to end it on a positive note. But yeah Sasuke is portrayed as wrong for most of the series but still he and Edelgard share similar mindsets. Also their English VAs are married in real life so there’s that

[omegaxis1]

1 minute ago, Ottservia said:

Funny thing about that Kishimoto actually has stated in an interview that Sasuke was right and only ended the series the way he did simply because he wanted to end it on a positive note. But yeah Sasuke is portrayed as wrong for most of the series but still he and Edelgard share similar mindsets. Also their English VAs are married in real life so there’s that

I said the same thing about a Marth/Edelgard ship as a joke. XD

But I wanna point out that Sasuke for the majority of the series was obsessed with revenge, which is objectively always viewed in the wrong. It's only at the end part where he generally focused on things beyond revenge, which would be a bit more closer to Edelgard. 

[Jotari]

14 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

In which case, you don't seem to understand what I've been saying in regards to the political power and influence the Church holds over nations. It's not a matter of controlling nations, but the fact that the Church can intervene and influence over political matters and such.

By 

A) Receiving money from willing donors

B) Having an annual, prepared, mock battle 

C) Saving imperial citizens from a massacre

D) The pope expecting an invitation to the coronation.

These are all things the empire can, if they choose, stop (and Edelgard explicitly does in one case). The church has no authority to enforce these things (well it's always they're own choice to accept donations, but the empire could outlaw donating to the church). The empire and the church are interacting as soverign entities. They both hold sway and influence over each other. That's how foreign relations work.

Edited March 19, 2020 by Jotari

[Ottservia]

Just now, omegaxis1 said:

I said the same thing about a Marth/Edelgard ship as a joke. XD

But I wanna point out that Sasuke for the majority of the series was obsessed with revenge, which is objectively always viewed in the wrong. It's only at the end part where he generally focused on things beyond revenge, which would be a bit more closer to Edelgard. 

Not exactly. Well yeah revenge was his primary motivator for a majority of the series but it’s really the reason he wanted revenge I find is what makes him more similar to Edelgard than Dimitri. When you really look at Sasuke’s actions throughout the early parts of the series, you’ll find that a lot of his motives are purely selfless and more about the mission or goal than anything else. His quest for vengeance wasn’t so much a selfish way to satiate his own darkness but rather it was a moral crusade if anything. It’s the precise reason he killed Orochimaru because Orochimaru reminds him of the brother he thought he knew which by that point he thought his brother only did what he did for power. Orochimaru is similar and Sasuke will not stand for it. He simply hates the ceaseless taking of lives for what he deems a senseless reason. The same goes for his vengeance quest against the hidden leaf. He wanted to destroy the leaf in its entirety not just the elders simply because well they support a system that allowed for the slaughter of his clan. In his eyes the people that support the system are just as bad as those who run it. Sasuke’s revenge has never been at any particular person but rather the ideals those people represent and in that sense his quest for vengeance is never ending. Similar to Edelgard, they both fight against what they feel is an oppressive system and will cast aside all that is unnecessary to do so even their own well being and happiness if they have to.

[omegaxis1]

4 minutes ago, Jotari said:

By 

A) Receiving money from willing donors

B) Having an annual, prepared, mock battle 

C) Saving imperial citizens from a massacre

D) The pope expecting an invitation to the coronation.

These are all things the empire can, if they choose, stop (and Edelgard explicitly does in one case). The church has no authority to enforce these things (well it's always they're own choice to accept donations, but the empire could outlaw donating to the church). The empire and the church are interacting as soverign entities. They both hold sway and influence over each other. That's how foreign relations work.

Oh? Did you miss the part of how it can still ban nations from tech advancement? Or how about how they would send people to reclaim a Relic by force if necessary from an Imperial noble? Also, why does the Knights of Seiros have to save a village from a massacre? It's in Imperial territory, meaning that it's the Empire's job to handle what goes on, and yet the Knights of Seiros decides to do it themselves. What gives them the right to do that? 

And why does the Empire have to concede allowing the Church to hold their battles on their territory? Given how there's tension with the Church and Empire, the Empire could easily refuse, could they not? And yet, they have to do so.

[vanguard333]

35 minutes ago, Silver-Haired Maiden said:

Anyway, back on topic. While I appreciate what Edelgard was trying to do, and again I appreciate her as a character, I feel that CF would have greatly benefitted from having more disagreements and discussion among the characters about Edelgard and her actions. Not just in supports either, but actually in the story. Someone like Linhardt would have been perfect for this because it's in his character to do so. Also it would help give some importance to the BE Strike Force beyond just "most of them are here because they fight good and we're friends". Ferdinand being the exception. Did I ever mention how much I love Ferdinand?

I agree and, to expand on that, I think every route could've benefitted from more disagreements and discussion, not just within the houses, but also between opposing sides. Easily the worst dialogue moment in  Crimson Flower would have to go to the unique boss dialogue between Edelgard and Dimitri:

Dimitri: Must you continue to conquer? Continue to kill?

Edelgard: Must you continue to reconquer? Continue to kill in retaliation?

Dimitri questions her on her methods, and Edelgard basically responds with, "No, you". Frankly, it seems like every time these two characters are in a room together, their intelligence is cut in half when there could instead be meaningful and tragic disagreement. At least the next part of the boss conversation is a bit better:

Edelgard: I will not stop. There is nothing I would not sacrifice to cut a path to Fodlan's new dawn!

Dimitri: Enough of this madness! This future of yours is built on a foundation of corpses and tears!

That is probably the closest the game gets to any meaningful and tragic disagreement between the characters on opposing sides. 

 

49 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

And what does this have to do with blaming Rhea or the Church? What? I'm talking about the political influence and power they hold in nations. Crowning the next king of Faerghus isn't that different in comparison to the archbishop needing to be present for the crowning of the next emperor of Adrestia. 

Only a church official has to be present for the crowning of the next emperor. In Crimson Flower, Edelgard uses Byleth for that role. In all other routes (or at least in Golden Deer), Ferdinand's dialogue in part 1, chapter 12 if recruited indicates that her coronation was still official, so she evidently must've used someone else; likely a random priest or monk who didn't know why they were there. 

[omegaxis1]

7 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

Only a church official has to be present for the crowning of the next emperor. In Crimson Flower, Edelgard uses Byleth for that role. In all other routes (or at least in Golden Deer), Ferdinand's dialogue in part 1, chapter 12 if recruited indicates that her coronation was still official, so she evidently must've used someone else; likely a random priest or monk who didn't know why they were there. 

It sounds like that, but Seteth also states that Edelgard forced her father out of the throne, basically stealing the crown. It's questionable if the substitute was even needed, since it seems more like Edelgard seemed to want to spend more time with Byleth. But neither Ionius nor Edelgard would care for the Church by this point since the Empire will be going to war.