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Darkmoon6789

I found something interesting about the Agarthans

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agartha

http://chinabuddhismencyclopedia.com/en/index.php/The_prophecy_of_Shambhala

I know that the Agarthans had a real-world inspiration, I wonder if we can glean any information about their in game incarnation. From their real-world inspiration.

This especially caught my attention:

Quote

"the prophecy of Shambhala states that each of its kings will rule for 100 years. There will be 32 in all, and as their reigns pass, conditions in the outside world will deteriorate. Men will become more warlike and pursue power for its own sake, and an ideology of materialism will spread over the earth. When the "barbarians" who follow this ideology are united under an evil king and think there is nothing left to conquer, the mists will lift to reveal the icy mountains of Shambhala. The barbarians will attack Shambhala with a huge army equipped with terrible weapons. Then the 32nd king of Shambhala, Rudra Cakrin, will lead a mighty host against the invaders."

Is this how the Agarthans see themselves? Do they see the rest of the world as barbarians, and that then cleansing the world of said barbarians and putting themselves in power once again will lead to a new golden age? Is Rhea the evil king? Or perhaps Edelgard? In this scenario, I guess that Thales would be the 32nd king. It actually makes quite a bit of sense. For this to be the viewpoint of the Agarthans.

The Agarthans do seem to have their own religion, probably polytheistic, Thales official title, agastya is also the name of a vedic sage.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agastya

I am noticing quite a few connections to the religion of Hinduism and Buddhism, do the Agarthans perhaps have a similar belief system? Thales might be considered an spiritual leader by his people as his title might be a reference to him being a sort of sage

I'm starting to wonder if the cause of the conflict with Sothis originally was that she demanded that the Agarthans should worship them, and they considered the notion heretical as they had their own belief system and considered her a false deity. 

If the Agarthans views the rest of Fodlan as uncivilised barbarians and heretics who follow a false God, it is entirely possible they consider themselves the good guys, and that the rest of the world are wicked sinners, against which everything they do is justifiable. 

Not much is known about the Agarthans in game, but I might be able to put some things together about their general philosophy based on their real-life inspiration.

It is also worth noting that a lot of their names seems to be based on the seven sages of Greece. 

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Agarthans called surface people as "beasts", so they probably hold racial superiority against rest of the world.

Not only they have higher tech, considering their hostile stance against dragons. Surface people, who's blood has been "polluted" by dragons (through crests) are likely viewed by them as inferior race, making the term "beasts" double meanings here.

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9 hours ago, Timlugia said:

Agarthans called surface people as "beasts", so they probably hold racial superiority against rest of the world.

Not only they have higher tech, considering their hostile stance against dragons. Surface people, who's blood has been "polluted" by dragons (through crests) are likely viewed by them as inferior race, making the term "beasts" double meanings here.

More than that. The surface people are worshipping the goddess and following the religion of Rhea, a Nabatean. So basically followers of the religion of beasts makes them no better than a beast. 

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14 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

More than that. The surface people are worshipping the goddess and following the religion of Rhea, a Nabatean. So basically followers of the religion of beasts makes them no better than a beast. 

Over the day was

I am actually starting to find the Agarthans quite interesting,, they apparently have deeper roots in mythology than I first thought.

One thing I found reference when it comes to both Agartha and Shambhala respectively is that both of these mythological civilisations are regarded to be highly spiritual and view themselves as more righteous than the outside world. Something I can see reflected in the Agarthans in this game.

I am not certain if the Agarthans worship any Gods like in Hinduism or is more about personal enlightenment, like Buddhism. If it is the second. This could provide an explanation of why Rhea refers to them as believing themselves to be gods as their spiritual beliefs are all about self-improvement. Given this could be also make an educated guess that the Agarthans are very anti-materialistic? Interestingly enough, I see some reference to the prophecy of Shambhala being criticised by some Buddhist scholars for promoting violence, which is otherwise against their religion. So in that way. A literalist interpretation of Shambhala could represent a radical and more violent incarnation of Buddhism but want to convert the world to their religion by force.

I think I finally start to understand what the Agarthans goal actually is, they venerate humanity and humanity's potential to become greater, they consider the influence of the Nabateans to be a taint upon humanity and they seek to wipe out every trace of their influence across the continent, perhaps even going as far as exterminate anyone who has a crest they consider them tainted by the beasts.

You know how some people say that Edelgard intends to commit genocide on the children of the goddess? This is untrue. In the case of her, but I do think this is exactly what the Agarthans want to do. 

I have come to the conclusion that both the church of Seiros and the Agarthans are basically fanatical cults. Fodlan is probably better off without either of them. But I sometime wonder if every single Agarthan is bad or if they just have terrible people in charge. Could someone them learn to coexist with the people of the outside world. Once Thales and the rest of their corrupt leadership is removed? Or have the population been brainwashed to hate the outside world for such a long time they are a lost cause.

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2 minutes ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

Over the day was

I am actually starting to find the Agarthans quite interesting,, they apparently have deeper roots in mythology than I first thought.

One thing I found reference when it comes to both Agartha and Shambhala respectively is that both of these mythological civilisations are regarded to be highly spiritual and view themselves as more righteous than the outside world. Something I can see reflected in the Agarthans in this game.

I am not certain if the Agarthans worship any Gods like in Hinduism or is more about personal enlightenment, like Buddhism. If it is the second. This could provide an explanation of why Rhea refers to them as believing themselves to be gods as their spiritual beliefs are all about self-improvement. Given this could be also make an educated guess that the Agarthans are very anti-materialistic? Interestingly enough, I see some reference to the prophecy of Shambhala being criticised by some Buddhist scholars for promoting violence, which is otherwise against their religion. So in that way. A literalist interpretation of Shambhala could represent a radical and more violent incarnation of Buddhism but want to convert the world to their religion by force.

I think I finally start to understand what the Agarthans goal actually is, they venerate humanity and humanity's potential to become greater, they consider the influence of the Nabateans to be a taint upon humanity and they seek to wipe out every trace of their influence across the continent, perhaps even going as far as exterminate anyone who has a crest they consider them tainted by the beasts.

You know how some people say that Edelgard intends to commit genocide on the children of the goddess? This is untrue. In the case of her, but I do think this is exactly what the Agarthans want to do. 

I have come to the conclusion that both the church of Seiros and the Agarthans are basically fanatical cults. Fodlan is probably better off without either of them. But I sometime wonder if every single Agarthan is bad or if they just have terrible people in charge. Could someone them learn to coexist with the people of the outside world. Once Thales and the rest of their corrupt leadership is removed? Or have the population been brainwashed to hate the outside world for such a long time they are a lost cause.

Imagine it as the two extremes of light and dark. 

Rhea being the extreme light was overall detached from humans and just sought herself as the only one that understands what needed to happen, that people should just go along with what she does and says because she acts as the will of the goddess. When you look at the actions Rhea has done, it's really horrific and brutal, and can even be described as heartless. She frames Lonato's son for regicide because he was a political obstacle, and justified it as a way of preventing further chaos from being spread. And when Lonato rebelled against the Chruch as a result of that, Rhea had him overall killed without remorse. 

The case of there being too much light is that you even up losing sight of everything else and just focus on keeping the peace as it goes, and you are far from being compassionate, but just cruel. That's how Rhea ended up turning the Church of Seiros, something that should have acted merely as a spiritual guide for society as religion should, into a political institution that tries to only help when it benefits them more. 

The Agarthans being the extreme dark, where they operate by manipulating and spread chaos, death, and destruction, all while plotting their revenge, uncaring of the inhumane actions they perform or what horrific deeds they commit. 

The funny thing about light and dark is that you can't seen anything if there's too much in either. Can you look at the light directly like the sun? Nope. You have to look away. Can you see anything in total darkness? Nope. 

Humans are neither light nor dark. 

It's another reason why I like Edelgard. She destroys both sides of extremes and focuses on the middle.

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21 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Imagine it as the two extremes of light and dark. 

Rhea being the extreme light was overall detached from humans and just sought herself as the only one that understands what needed to happen, that people should just go along with what she does and says because she acts as the will of the goddess. When you look at the actions Rhea has done, it's really horrific and brutal, and can even be described as heartless. She frames Lonato's son for regicide because he was a political obstacle, and justified it as a way of preventing further chaos from being spread. And when Lonato rebelled against the Chruch as a result of that, Rhea had him overall killed without remorse. 

The case of there being too much light is that you even up losing sight of everything else and just focus on keeping the peace as it goes, and you are far from being compassionate, but just cruel. That's how Rhea ended up turning the Church of Seiros, something that should have acted merely as a spiritual guide for society as religion should, into a political institution that tries to only help when it benefits them more. 

The Agarthans being the extreme dark, where they operate by manipulating and spread chaos, death, and destruction, all while plotting their revenge, uncaring of the inhumane actions they perform or what horrific deeds they commit. 

The funny thing about light and dark is that you can't seen anything if there's too much in either. Can you look at the light directly like the sun? Nope. You have to look away. Can you see anything in total darkness? Nope. 

Humans are neither light nor dark. 

It's another reason why I like Edelgard. She destroys both sides of extremes and focuses on the middle.

I have definitely made it clear how much I like Edelgard, wonderful girl, in my mind she is basically the living embodiment of what it means to be human.

I do think that how the Agarthans justify their inhumane actions is that they simply don't view the surface dwellers as truly human, as Kronya says, they are vermin. The only exist to be either exterminated or experimented on with little qualms because they see them as inherently inferior to Agarthans. They also essentially see Edelgard as nothing more than a lab rat performing a task (another reason the poor girl is afraid of rats?)

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1 minute ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

I have definitely made it clear how much I like Edelgard, wonderful girl, in my mind she is basically the living embodiment of what it means to be human.

I do think that how the Agarthans justify their inhumane actions is that they simply don't view the surface dwellers as truly human, as Kronya says, they are vermin. The only exist to be either exterminated or experimented on with little qualms because they see them as inherently inferior to Agarthans. They also essentially see Edelgard as nothing more than a lab rat performing a task (another reason the poor girl is afraid of rats?)

I mean, how much animal experimentation do we do? If you see it that way, then yes, what the Agarthans do to people are the same things people IRL do to animals. 

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4 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

I mean, how much animal experimentation do we do? If you see it that way, then yes, what the Agarthans do to people are the same things people IRL do to animals. 

History are full of examples of things people are suddenly able to justify if they believe a group to be less than human. This is called dehumanisation and this practice can make even otherwise decent people be okay with even the worst of atrocities. This happened with the jews during the Holocaust, which was another time people were subjected to awful experiments like they were animals.

Yes, humanity is also ran quite a lot of awful experiments on animals, especially rats. It is probably not a coincidence that this is exactly what the Agarthans consider the surface dwellers, rats. It was also the exact comparison the Nazi's made to their primary target of dehumanisation.

If you put it like this, the Agarthans are definitely horrifically evil. And what's made it even worse is that we have a self-righteous attitude about it as they genuinely consider themselves superior.

Still, the children of the goddess do something similar, and I have seen signs that even in the past. They were pretty fanatical in enforcing the worship of Sothis.

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15 minutes ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

History are full of examples of things people are suddenly able to justify if they believe a group to be less than human. This is called dehumanisation and this practice can make even otherwise decent people be okay with even the worst of atrocities. This happened with the jews during the Holocaust, which was another time people were subjected to awful experiments like they were animals.

Yes, humanity is also ran quite a lot of awful experiments on animals, especially rats. It is probably not a coincidence that this is exactly what the Agarthans consider the surface dwellers, rats. It was also the exact comparison the Nazi's made to their primary target of dehumanisation.

If you put it like this, the Agarthans are definitely horrifically evil. And what's made it even worse is that we have a self-righteous attitude about it as they genuinely consider themselves superior.

Still, the children of the goddess do something similar, and I have seen signs that even in the past. They were pretty fanatical in enforcing the worship of Sothis.

Let's face it. Almost nothing in media and franchises of evil villains and such doing horrible things really compares to anything of the kind of horrors actual humans HAVE done throughout history.

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1 hour ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

Still, the children of the goddess do something similar, and I have seen signs that even in the past. They were pretty fanatical in enforcing the worship of Sothis.

Where does that come from? I thought I have searched the bibliothek in abyssus quite well but didnt find anything sugesting that the nabateans tried to force anyone to worship sothis. Was it some kind of book I didnt unlock there or do you have that from extra-game materials?

I always imagined the Nabateans to be isolationistic people (like all other manaketes in the series), heck they build an city in a remote location after the war instead of running around and trying to convert people. Or expanding their realm to conquer all of fodlan. The agression (to my knowledge) started when the massacre at Zanado brought them to the brink of annihilation.

Also that does not fit to the fact that open non believers are high ranking members of the knights. Even the personal butler of the archbishop is not a believer in Sothis and no one seems to care and is encouraged by Rhea herself to find his own way. Would Rhea really do that if Sothis was enforcing people to worship her?

 

 

Edited by Nihilem

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Honestly, TWSID really needed more time to be fleshed out. They are responsible for making Fódlan the way it is, and yet they barley get any screen time. In AM, they are the absent for the whole saga except for the final battle. In CF, despite working with them, you learn next to nothing and the confrontation takes place off screen. Only in SS and VW are the two they are directly confronted, and only in VW do you get a full explanation. Even with that, it’s a lot of speculation. Rhea and Seteth only conclude based off evidence that they conspired with Nemesis, which is never outright confirmed. DLC in a similar manner to Fates’s Hidden Truth could be useful for fleshing them out.

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21 hours ago, Nihilem said:

I always imagined the Nabateans to be isolationistic people (like all other manaketes in the series), heck they build an city in a remote location after the war instead of running around and trying to convert people. Or expanding their realm to conquer all of fodlan. The agression (to my knowledge) started when the massacre at Zanado brought them to the brink of annihilation.

No, an interview confirms that post Agarthan war, the Nabateans actually spread out and began to govern over people. 

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4 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

No, an interview confirms that post Agarthan war, the Nabateans actually spread out and began to govern over people. 

Oh - I didnt know that. Do you have a link for me so that i can read it?

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3 minutes ago, Nihilem said:

Oh - I didnt know that. Do you have a link for me so that i can read it?

It's from a Nintendo DREAM Interview. I had a friend translate it.

Spoiler

Q: Why did Nemesis attack Zanado?

K: In that world, originally the race that could change into dragons, the so called citizens of Nabatea, were scattered about Fodlan in the different places/lands as governers (rulers) but, there were the citizens of Agartha who held hatred against the citizens of Nabatea... in other words, Those Who Slither in the Dark wanted to overturn this state of affairs (of the Nabateans as rulers) and as such, they devised schemes. They granted humans the technology to make powerful weapons from the corpses of the citizens of Nabatea, or so was their plan that they enacted, to which they went forward with this plan using the human, Nemesis. As a result, what would happen to humans who gained power... they would want even more power, and find a dragon much stronger to beat in order to collect materials forcefully, in order to make even more powerful weapons... and so that was the cycle that was born. And that was the birth of Fodlan's Ten Elites. And then, Seiros raised and army and forcefully supressed Nemesis and the Ten Elites by beating them, and then afterwards, as the victor, Seiros changed history, which led to the current history of the Seiros Church. In other words, "history is at the end of the day the victor's privilege and nothing else", is what we fit in. As a result, during the first part of this title, there is a great amount of people speaking lies about history, which results in the books in the library not being able to be believed at all.

This happened after the Agarthan War. This would actually explain why there are even "survivors" like Indech, Cichol, his wife, Cethleann, Macuil, Aubin, Noa, Chevalier, and Timotheous. Rhea was the sole survivor of the massacre of the Red Canyon, which makes it questionable as to how these other Nabateans were also survivors. 

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1 hour ago, omegaxis1 said:

It's from a Nintendo DREAM Interview. I had a friend translate it.

  Reveal hidden contents

Q: Why did Nemesis attack Zanado?

K: In that world, originally the race that could change into dragons, the so called citizens of Nabatea, were scattered about Fodlan in the different places/lands as governers (rulers) but, there were the citizens of Agartha who held hatred against the citizens of Nabatea... in other words, Those Who Slither in the Dark wanted to overturn this state of affairs (of the Nabateans as rulers) and as such, they devised schemes. They granted humans the technology to make powerful weapons from the corpses of the citizens of Nabatea, or so was their plan that they enacted, to which they went forward with this plan using the human, Nemesis. As a result, what would happen to humans who gained power... they would want even more power, and find a dragon much stronger to beat in order to collect materials forcefully, in order to make even more powerful weapons... and so that was the cycle that was born. And that was the birth of Fodlan's Ten Elites. And then, Seiros raised and army and forcefully supressed Nemesis and the Ten Elites by beating them, and then afterwards, as the victor, Seiros changed history, which led to the current history of the Seiros Church. In other words, "history is at the end of the day the victor's privilege and nothing else", is what we fit in. As a result, during the first part of this title, there is a great amount of people speaking lies about history, which results in the books in the library not being able to be believed at all.

This happened after the Agarthan War. This would actually explain why there are even "survivors" like Indech, Cichol, his wife, Cethleann, Macuil, Aubin, Noa, Chevalier, and Timotheous. Rhea was the sole survivor of the massacre of the Red Canyon, which makes it questionable as to how these other Nabateans were also survivors. 

I read somewhere that Seteth was in reality Cichol and Flayn is Cethleann. Is this true?

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1 minute ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

I read somewhere that Seteth was in reality Cichol and Flayn is Cethleann. Is this true?

Spoiler

There's a reason why on St. Cichol and Cethleanne Day, it's conveniently Seteth and Flayn's birthday respectively.

 

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15 hours ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

I read somewhere that Seteth was in reality Cichol and Flayn is Cethleann. Is this true?

Spoiler

Yes, their A support confirms it as they call themselves in their true name.

 

Edited by Nihilem

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On 3/22/2020 at 10:17 PM, omegaxis1 said:

Q: Why did Nemesis attack Zanado?

K: In that world, originally the race that could change into dragons, the so called citizens of Nabatea, were scattered about Fodlan in the different places/lands as governers (rulers) but, there were the citizens of Agartha who held hatred against the citizens of Nabatea... in other words, Those Who Slither in the Dark wanted to overturn this state of affairs (of the Nabateans as rulers) and as such, they devised schemes. They granted humans the technology to make powerful weapons from the corpses of the citizens of Nabatea, or so was their plan that they enacted, to which they went forward with this plan using the human, Nemesis. As a result, what would happen to humans who gained power... they would want even more power, and find a dragon much stronger to beat in order to collect materials forcefully, in order to make even more powerful weapons... and so that was the cycle that was born. And that was the birth of Fodlan's Ten Elites. And then, Seiros raised and army and forcefully supressed Nemesis and the Ten Elites by beating them, and then afterwards, as the victor, Seiros changed history, which led to the current history of the Seiros Church. In other words, "history is at the end of the day the victor's privilege and nothing else", is what we fit in. As a result, during the first part of this title, there is a great amount of people speaking lies about history, which results in the books in the library not being able to be believed at all.

That explains a few things, like why there's so many "survivors". And kind of retcon-ish if you can even apply that to Three "Everyone is an Unreliable Narrator" Houses.

I really want to see the technology that was given to humans to make relics. 😛
What, so dragons were rulers at that time too ?

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6 minutes ago, B.Leu said:

That explains a few things, like why there's so many "survivors". And kind of retcon-ish if you can even apply that to Three "Everyone is an Unreliable Narrator" Houses.

I really want to see the technology that was given to humans to make relics. 😛
What, so dragons were rulers at that time too ?

Suddenly makes sense as to why Nemesis is called the King of "Liberation". 

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25 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Suddenly makes sense as to why Nemesis is called the King of "Liberation". 

He liberated Fodlan from dragons and their tyranical shit taste. Looking at Sothis' Regalia makes you realize, only monsters with no taste would create such thing. Whereas the chad Nememis and his chad Elites had cool weapons and armors. we don't talk about how he let his chest bare to annoying and dangerous dagger.

But more seriously, as true sounding my joke was, it kind of grate me how far the unreliable narrator goes. The moment you think you have it, it fly like a flipping bird, the truths are in interviews, the heck. In this game everyone is either a liar, an idiot, or insane.

On TVtropes, totally the most trustworthy thing on this age and subject, they says that King of Liberation come from killing people, "liberating" people from life. No, I don't undertand it either.

The story of this game is good and all, but it's an headache.

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7 hours ago, B.Leu said:

He liberated Fodlan from dragons and their tyranical shit taste. Looking at Sothis' Regalia makes you realize, only monsters with no taste would create such thing. Whereas the chad Nememis and his chad Elites had cool weapons and armors. we don't talk about how he let his chest bare to annoying and dangerous dagger.

But more seriously, as true sounding my joke was, it kind of grate me how far the unreliable narrator goes. The moment you think you have it, it fly like a flipping bird, the truths are in interviews, the heck. In this game everyone is either a liar, an idiot, or insane.

On TVtropes, totally the most trustworthy thing on this age and subject, they says that King of Liberation come from killing people, "liberating" people from life. No, I don't undertand it either.

The story of this game is good and all, but it's an headache.

Except we never get the finer details. Our information comes from Rhea, from her perspective. And she is biased as hell. Obviously from her point of view, the Nabateans did nothing wrong, and everyone else that hurt her people were the evil ones. 

I mean, people go about the genocide of the Nabateans and insist that it makes Rhea justified for what she did. Except, understandable reasons and motives does not make it justifiable. 

The main problem is that they made three paths telling multiple stories. They should have focused on one story only.

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So... Their story runs deeper than I thought. Three! Come, we must investigate...

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On 3/29/2020 at 2:21 PM, omegaxis1 said:

The main problem is that they made three paths telling multiple stories. They should have focused on one story only.

I disagree with that statement in parts. Having multiple stories tied together makes the world feel much bigger and alive then just having a linear story. But i admit and agree that the current state of the world building lets so much open questions.

 

What they should have done is using dlcs pack to further explore the stories only mentioned in the main game. Like the Argathian/Nabatean War, Loog the Lion King, Red Canyon etc.

 

With Sothis Time Travel Abilities they could even get away with having old characters in the dlc (because having a cast of just new chars for a dlc pack will probably to much to ask) saying that byleth used his powers to travel to the past to find the truth behind certain events etc.

Edited by Nihilem

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