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do people really not like Thracia's core mechanics?


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9 minutes ago, Shrimperor said:

For me fatigue has one problem: Certain events need a certain character, and if that character is fatigued: GG. So instead, Fatigue should nerf characters quite a bit but still be useable.

Yeah... that is definitely a problem. More so in a blind run. In a run where you know what's coming it becomes a tactical thing. But who wants to know what's coming their first time?

 

11 minutes ago, Shrimperor said:

despise Same turn reinforcements

While I can see the argument for this, I have to point out this is hardly the only game in the series that does it. Which doesn't excuse it by any means.

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8 hours ago, Shrimperor said:

For me fatigue has one problem: Certain events need a certain character, and if that character is fatigued: GG. So instead, Fatigue should nerf characters quite a bit but still be useable.

That and it can also make certain chapters almost impossible. Say for example you do Ch. 8x, but Asvel is too fatigued to be deployed. Gomes is almost impossible to kill.

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8 hours ago, forsettipatty said:

staves missing is just juicy free exp 😌

Actually it's a good way to train units like Tina.

On the down side units tend to get fatigued faster because missed staff also counts as an action.

Though it's worth, to get some fatigued, if they can get some levels in return.

I had staff users who had more than twice as much action points as HP, so the fatigue doesn't hurt as much as someone who barely surpassed HP.

 

Chapter 8 is like the easiest chapter, so Asbel is not needed at all die it.

Though if Sarah gets fatigued after chapter 24, and you're out of stamina drinks, then RIP Eyvel.

I wished stamina drinks would be also obtainable in lategame.

They only exist till chapter 14x which kinda sucks.

And in 14x it's not easy to get all the drinks.

Edited by Reisalin Stout
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9 hours ago, Reisalin Stout said:

Weapons can miss, so why staves shouldn't?

Ok no, this statement just does not make sense whatsoever. You could apply it to any other game (not even Fire Emblem, just any other game) and it does not work. You can miss attacks in other RPGs, should your healing skills also miss in those games as well? In Fire Emblem, weapons can miss so should Dancing miss as well?

The answer to all of this is no.

The only time Staffs missing makes sense are the status effect ones because they can be pretty nasty.

9 hours ago, Reisalin Stout said:

It only matters very early for low leveled units like Safiya and especially Tina. Just give them a skill ring and skill scroll, and they won't miss anymore.

Hit rate still caps at 99 so there's an ever-present chance that the game will say "no" to one of your heals.

 

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9 hours ago, forsettipatty said:

staves missing is just juicy free exp 😌

Doesn't change the fact that it's still inexcusably bad game design.

10 hours ago, Reisalin Stout said:

I forgot to add staff misses to my former comment.

I have to say it doesn't bother me as much anymore as it did at first.

  1. Weapons can miss, so why staves shouldn't?
  2. Vulneraries are amazing in this game since they heal full HP.
  3. It only matters very early for low leveled units like Safiya and especially Tina. Just give them a skill ring and skill scroll, and they won't miss anymore.
  4. Enemy staff users can miss too. And this will happen more often than to the allies. So why not seeing the positive backside?

See above.

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Ok no, this statement just does not make sense whatsoever. You could apply it to any other game (not even Fire Emblem, just any other game) and it does not work. You can miss attacks in other RPGs, should your healing skills also miss in those games as well? 

I have no idea, if healing skills can miss in any other RPG aside of FE5.

 

Regardless missing heal isn't even a big thing except in like one map, chapter 3, when Safiya joins.

And then you don't need her for that because vulneraries exist which recover all HP.

Sure, successful healing could save the one or other turn, but it's not gamebreaking at all.

You have enough healers later on (early promoted Asbel, Schroff, Sarah) who have enough stats to heal reliably.

In chapter 4 and 4x you don't even have a healer, so much for that.

 

I'm not gonna lie, FE6 is even worse because this game relies on healing since vulneraries have way worse effect and staff users have abysmal magic.

That's even more bothering than having a missed heal.

FE6 is like two steps back anyways.

Edited by Reisalin Stout
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1 hour ago, forsettipatty said:

Enemy staff users missing is worth missing with staves a lot until you have 10 skill. it's a very worth trade off

I don't give a damn. It's still terrible game design for which there is no defense or excuse whatsoever.

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3 hours ago, Armagon said:

Hit rate still caps at 99 so there's an ever-present chance that the game will say "no" to one of your heals.

 

are you sure it's the same w heals? I have never had a heal miss after obtaining 10 skill

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5 hours ago, Armagon said:

Hit rate still caps at 99 so there's an ever-present chance that the game will say "no" to one of your heals.

 

 

2 hours ago, forsettipatty said:

are you sure it's the same w heals? I have never had a heal miss after obtaining 10 skill

Staves don't cap at 99. They get absolute 100 once you have 10 skl

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15 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

I really don't get the hate against fatigue as it really does help people like Rald and there are S-Drinks anyhow.

The game is already hard to play. Fatigue is like cancer. It does bad things. I shouldn't be barred from using the units I like arbitrarily, which is what fatigue does. It doesn't help that healers get fatigued easily. Stamina drinks do fuck all to remedy this.

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We got people talkin' smack about mechanics in games they haven't played or have barely played in here smh

I am legitimately baffled by the number of people here saying "staves missing is bad design / dumb / whatever low-grade insult I thought of today" and then provide no further explanation. I'm not saying it's a good mechanic, but you can't just assert that it's not as if it requires no further justification.

It's also funny that, in my experience, people who like fatigue think the game is too generous with S Drinks, while people who don't like fatigue think the game is too stingy with S drinks. It's almost like the people who hate the mechanic want to entirely subvert it and people who like it would rather you not be able to do that. Who'd've thought.

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2 minutes ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

I am legitimately baffled by the number of people here saying "staves missing is bad design / dumb / whatever low-grade insult I thought of today" and then provide no further explanation. I'm not saying it's a good mechanic, but you can't just assert that it's not as if it requires no further justification.

Literally no other RPG has the worry of having healing attempts miss. Why the hell is it okay for Thracia to do this???

Edited by Shadow Mir
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3 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Literally no other RPG has the worry of having healing attempts miss. Why the hell is it okay for Thracia to do this???

Why is it not? Please explain not by pointing out that it's uncommon, but by showing what is intrinsically wrong with it in the context of Thracia's design.

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4 minutes ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

I am legitimately baffled by the number of people here saying "staves missing is bad design / dumb / whatever low-grade insult I thought of today" and then provide no further explanation. I'm not saying it's a good mechanic, but you can't just assert that it's not as if it requires no further justification.

I find it more baffling that so many people are obssesed over this little thing that is completely irrelevant. Getting enough skill hard-caps staff accuracy to 100. The gimmick only matters the first two chapters you have a staff user. After that, you'll only see it if your name is Tina. And Tina's staves are broken enough that it's understandable.

Thracia has issues, but this one is so small... even in the context of this thread that consists entirely of disliked mechanics, staves missing is light-years away from being the most impactful mechanic in Thracia.

5 minutes ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

It's also funny that, in my experience, people who like fatigue think the game is too generous with S Drinks, while people who don't like fatigue think the game is too stingy with S drinks. It's almost like the people who hate the mechanic want to entirely subvert it and people who like it would rather you not be able to do that. Who'd've thought.

Yeah, actually. The fact that you can grind for stamina drinks in chapter 9 and then get like eight in chapter 14 kinda negates the whole concept. What gives?

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22 minutes ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

Why is it not? Please explain not by pointing out that it's uncommon, but by showing what is intrinsically wrong with it in the context of Thracia's design.

Like stated previously, the person getting healed is not actively trying to get out of the way of getting healed. The bigger question, from where I'm standing, is why is it even a thing in the first place.

Edited by Shadow Mir
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4 hours ago, forsettipatty said:

are you sure it's the same w heals? I have never had a heal miss after obtaining 10 skill

2 hours ago, Shrimperor said:

 

Staves don't cap at 99. They get absolute 100 once you have 10 skl

Ah ok, my bad.

I gave up on Thracia because dealing with it's bullshit wasn't worth it imo.

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3 hours ago, Saint Rubenio said:

I find it more baffling that so many people are obssesed over this little thing that is completely irrelevant. Getting enough skill hard-caps staff accuracy to 100. The gimmick only matters the first two chapters you have a staff user. After that, you'll only see it if your name is Tina. And Tina's staves are broken enough that it's understandable.

Thracia has issues, but this one is so small... even in the context of this thread that consists entirely of disliked mechanics, staves missing is light-years away from being the most impactful mechanic in Thracia.

That ignores that you're still at the mercy of the RNG before then. Also, the hardest part of a Fire Emblem game tends to be the earlygame. That means I have no assurance AT ALL during the hardest part of the game because not even my healers are reliable, in addition to having to deal with Thracia's other crappy mechanics. Yay.

Edited by Shadow Mir
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Is 1% as the lowest missing outcome really that detrimental? Honestly, you're much more likely to double with a healing staff than miss with it (healing staves can double in this game if the first heal isn't restoring the unit to full HP, if anyone's not aware of that). If I recall correctly that most staffers already have enough Skl to get quite high Hit with the healing staffs.

While I could agree that taking out the certain outcomes from the RNG pool might not be a good idea... it's not one I'm loosing much sleep over it. Even for healing staffs. It adds difficulty to the game, which ultimately, is what Thraccia is, no? It wasn't meant to be an easy/newcomer game.

Edited by Acacia Sgt
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36 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

That ignores that you're still at the mercy of the RNG before then. Also, the hardest part of a Fire Emblem game tends to be the earlygame. That means I have no assurance AT ALL during the hardest part of the game because not even my healers are reliable, in addition to having to deal with Thracia's other crappy mechanics. Yay.

Some problems I have w this take:

-two of the hardest chapters in the game, Chapter 4 and 4x, do not have a healer

-A healer is not essential even when you have Nanna for chapter 5, 6, and 7. Vulneraries are very powerful in this game, and you can steal them off of practically every soldier in 4 if you're worried.

-In what I consider to be the hardest part of thracia, Chapter 19-24x, you have plenty of different healers with enough skill to never miss a heal.

Staves missing always benefited the player more than the enemy.

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26 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Is 1% as the lowest missing outcome really that detrimental? Honestly, you're much more likely to double with a healing staff than miss with it (healing staves can double in this game if the first heal isn't restoring the unit to full HP, if anyone's not aware of that). If I recall correctly that most staffers already have enough Skl to get quite high Hit with the healing staffs.

While I could agree that taking out the certain outcomes from the RNG pool might not be a good idea... it's not one I'm loosing much sleep over it. Even for healing staffs. It adds difficulty to the game, which ultimately, is what Thraccia is, no? It wasn't meant to be an easy/newcomer game.

Being hard is one thing, and not something I consider bad on it's own. However, I draw the line at when a game is hard for all the wrong reasons. That's not cool. If I want to play a hard game, I want it to be the legitimately challenging kind of hard, not the frustrating kind of hard, which Thracia is.

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Just now, Shadow Mir said:

Being hard is one thing, and not something I consider bad on it's own. However, I draw the line at when a game is hard for all the wrong reasons. That's not cool. If I want to play a hard game, I want it to be the legitimately challenging kind of hard, not the frustrating kind of hard, which Thracia is.

For a series that likes to employ RNG for a lot of things, what's adding a few more?

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54 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

That ignores that you're still at the mercy of the RNG before then. Also, the hardest part of a Fire Emblem game tends to be the earlygame. That means I have no assurance AT ALL during the hardest part of the game because not even my healers are reliable, in addition to having to deal with Thracia's other crappy mechanics. Yay.

Hate to break it to ya man, but fire emblem is a very RNG heavy game in general. Your units can still miss their attacks, is that bad from a gameplay perspective? If you really want to RNG proof Thracia's earlygame, just use Eyvel, the game rigs all combat so that she survives no matter what. 

11 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

I want it to be the legitimately challenging kind of hard, not the frustrating kind of hard, which Thracia is.

What do you consider to be legitimate difficulty? 

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Its overdue for my 2 cent on the subject

  • Capture is such a great risk and reward mechanic, and is even a creative way to add extra character to the enemies by adding a unique release quote, or having the story change slightly when enemy boss are captured at the end of a map.
  • I love the Fatigue system, it makes you think about how much strain you are putting on your best units, gives you a reason not to bring them if don't need them for a map. The silly what if a unit I need for recruitment/event is fatigued problem is what the S drinks are for, and you get so many if them that I have to wonder if people who levy that complaint have even played this game.
  • 1-99% hit is a mechanic I like for the same reason I like it when units take a minimum 1 damage; it means you are never perfectly safe, even if the risk is small. Never being perfectly safe fits the themes well, and makes it harder to break it with dodge tanking, or crazy vantage strats.
  • Tying starting position to deployment order is a mixed bag. In a general sense it is bad, but chapter 19 wouldn't work without it, and its issues are mitigated slightly by how it deals with different groups. Generally shifting one position in deployment order is enough to switch groups, so if a unit HAS to be in one of the groups you can deploy/undeploy an extra unit above them (or possibly two for the three groups of chapter 24).
  • I don't find the Thracia fog of war much worse than the regular version. You can still see where your units are able to move to, which gives you a good idea of what terrain is there, and you usually know where you are going, either due to the glowing red arrow of an escape point, or basic game design principles.
  • Staff misses are the most overblown complaint of this game. It is only an issue for those below 10 skill, and you get a scroll that gives +30 skill growth in chapter 6. Its only an issue with healers that are under-trained, and lack the skill to properly heal. Plus there is always the possibility of staff doubling to mitigate this even further, and vulerary are amazing.
  • I've never had an issues with it, but staff should be able to effect allied green units.
  • Dismounting has one glaring issue, that some units get stuck using a weapon they have no ranks in. This would be easily fixed if they either keep their weapon type when dismounting, or shared ranks between their main weapon and swords when dismounting.
  • Single RN doesn't lie to you like the other RN systems, which I appreciate.
  • Move and Con growth are a lot of fun, and the max single digit move growth tries to keep it from breaking the game too much (unless you are breaking the game with RN manipulation anyway). Plus the enemy being able to proc those growths as well keeps it somewhat fair.
  • This is going to be one of the more controversial I think, but the extremely random enemy stats, especially the possibility of generic enemy move growth, is something I actually like. It makes things a bit different every time, and while enemies can be very weak, some will be strong in unexpected ways that always keeps you on your toes.
  • Leadership stars are a great mechanic, they give you incentives to deploy characters that are leaders, and more importantly give you an incentive to go after enemy bosses, and even help characterize some of them.
  • Movement stars are a mechanic that I tend to dislike. An enemy having them makes them terrifying when proced, and they are often useless when proced by the player, and even when they would be useful they are too random to really plan around.
  • Ambush spawns are always bad for blind play, but Thracia is one of those games that gets better, and better the more you play it, and understand it. Even without ambush spawns Thracia is cruel to the blind, and this just pushes it even further in that direction.
  • The random reinforcements are also a mixed bag for me, when there is fog of war with them they become obnoxious (14x *cough* *cough*), but otherwise kinda interesting when they are on a map.

 

2 hours ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

 

It's also funny that, in my experience, people who like fatigue think the game is too generous with S Drinks, while people who don't like fatigue think the game is too stingy with S drinks. It's almost like the people who hate the mechanic want to entirely subvert it and people who like it would rather you not be able to do that. Who'd've thought.

Honestly my last FE5 ironman where I ended up skipping 14x (and didn't buy any extra S drinks) really felt like the perfect amount of S drinks. There were times when I needed to ration out staff/unit use to keep them around for next chapter, or question whether or not I needed some of my good units for a chapter, or if I should give them a breather before a harder chapter to come, and I had the S drinks for when a unit has to come due to events, or needing the thief staff etc..

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