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do people really not like Thracia's core mechanics?


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On 3/29/2020 at 4:06 PM, forsettipatty said:

Fatigue is also a good mechanic because it prevents you from using the same units every time, and encourages variety in who you train (as well as against funneling all exp in to one unit and having them solo hordes of enemies).

More like "forces variety" than encourages it. If I want to have Edward and Nolan wreak havoc in the Dawn Brigade missions by themselves, then I should be allowed to do that. Limiting their ability to do so with a crappy fatigue mechanic is anti-player choice, and should not be a thing.

On 3/29/2020 at 4:06 PM, forsettipatty said:

Dismounting is one of the best mechanics in fire emblem

First of all that's subjective as hell. Secondly, dismounting left most units with having to use the lowest rank weapons, (unless you currently had a decent sword rank) hurting your offense by a lot.

On 3/29/2020 at 4:06 PM, forsettipatty said:

Do people really not like these features?

No, and I'm glad they went when Kaga got booted off the series.

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12 minutes ago, NinjaMonkey said:

More like "forces variety" than encourages it. If I want to have Edward and Nolan wreak havoc in the Dawn Brigade missions by themselves, then I should be allowed to do that. Limiting their ability to do so with a crappy fatigue mechanic is anti-player choice, and should not be a thing.

While a good counter in theory, you used for example the game that also prevents you from using the same units all the time. Not as extreme as Thracia; but it still did, whenever it forced you to use a different army group. That's also forced variety.

12 minutes ago, NinjaMonkey said:

First of all that's subjective as hell. Secondly, dismounting left most units with having to use the lowest rank weapons, (unless you currently had a decent sword rank) hurting your offense by a lot.

To be fair, that's more a problem of their handling of weapon ranks, not of dismounting itself. After all, nothing stopped them from simply keeping your weapon rank in the weapon type you already had while mounted. Like how in Mystery of the Emblem, even if you still were forced to switch weapon type, the universal weapon level system meant you weren't forced to switch to weaker weapons. That was handled better.

Edited by Acacia Sgt
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There are a total of 11 Stamina Drinks:

  • 1 from a Chapter 9 village
  • 2 from Chapter 10 Thieves
  • 1 from Tina
  • 1 from Homer
  • 6 in Chapter 14x

And chapters 9 and 14 let you buy infinitely more, but 5k per Drink is very expensive in game where no free money is given.

Considering a blind player could easily miss out on Tina and Homer, it's possibly 9 Drinks for them.

 

My stance on Fatigue is simple- options baby options. Some people don't like Permadeath, so IS invented Casual Mode, while keeping Permadeath around on Classic Mode. A Fatigue on/off switch should be no harder to add, and Stamina Drink functionality can be imbued to a rare and limited item with a second use that works without Fatigue in effect. Let the Fatigue fetishers have it, let the Fatigue haters have nothing to do with it, thats the gift of options.

Edited by Interdimensional Observer
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14 minutes ago, NinjaMonkey said:

First of all that's subjective as hell. Secondly, dismounting left most units with having to use the lowest rank weapons, (unless you currently had a decent sword rank) hurting your offense by a lot.

Yes, this entire thread is subjective.

 

FE3 dismounting may have been done better, but as it stands I think FE5 dismounting still was a good balancing mechanic

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4 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Like stated previously, the person getting healed is not actively trying to get out of the way of getting healed. The bigger question, from where I'm standing, is why is it even a thing in the first place.

Plenty of marksmen have missed a still target.

We should try to answer the question "why don't you like staves missing?" with something other than a question.

21 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

My stance on Fatigue is simple- options baby options. Some people don't like Permadeath, so IS invented Casual Mode, while keeping Permadeath around on Classic Mode. A Fatigue on/off switch should be no harder to add, and Stamina Drink functionality can be imbued to a rare and limited item with a second use that works without Fatigue in effect. Let the Fatigue fetishers have it, let the Fatigue haters have nothing to do with it, thats the gift of options.

I don't know. It's certainly a compromise that let's people have what they think they want, but that doesn't necessarily mean it produces the best experiences / combinations of mechanics.

Edited by AnonymousSpeed
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1 hour ago, Acacia Sgt said:

While a good counter in theory, you used for example the game that also prevents you from using the same units all the time. Not as extreme as Thracia; but it still did, whenever it forced you to use a different army group.

If you go back and read my post you'll see that I used the phrase "in the Dawn Brigade missions". Obviously in the missions where you play as the Crimean Army/Greil Mercenaries, they aren't available, but otherwise they are (apart from 1-9).

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23 minutes ago, NinjaMonkey said:

If you go back and read my post you'll see that I used the phrase "in the Dawn Brigade missions". Obviously in the missions where you play as the Crimean Army/Greil Mercenaries, they aren't available, but otherwise they are (apart from 1-9).

I'm aware. That's why I used the phrase "Not as extreme as Thracia" in mine. While indeed you are allowed continued use of the same party for several missions straight, unlike Thracia where it's either a use of Stamina Drink or you only get 2-3 uninterrupted at the most, the game itself still imposes forced changes to your roster availability. Hence also the "good counter in theory" comment.

My point is, the fact you needed to specify they could be used freely but only up to a point is what dragged the point down a bit. At least, that's how I saw it.

Edited by Acacia Sgt
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2 hours ago, NinjaMonkey said:

No, and I'm glad they went when Kaga got booted off the series.

If Kaga didn't exist, FE10 wouldn't exist as it does.

Tellius and FE of today as a whole is based on Thracia 776.

It does not only feature one time mechanics, but also mechanics which stayed permanently like all the mission objectives aside of seize.

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2 hours ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

I don't know. It's certainly a compromise that let's people have what they think they want, but that doesn't necessarily mean it produces the best experiences / combinations of mechanics.

You have a point. More options are usually better, but, for practical purposes, a game usually needs to be balanced around one specific set of criteria. Too many options, and perhaps the developers don't know which or choose the wrong ones to construct the balance upon.

Though variance in player skill levels must be taken into consideration too. It may for someone like me be too easy to dismiss Casual as rendering real difficulty nonexistent. Yet, other players may find challenges I find simple with Casual to be hard.

I'd say "it's best to balance everything around the hardest difficulty", but considering the gulf between Awakening & 3H Lunaddening and their Hards, perhaps FE needs to be finely balanced twice- once at the mild Hard, and once at the intense difficulty.

Though, I will still say that Fatigue as an option would be not too much different from Permadeath as an option. I contrast this with something like Genealogy's No-Trading system, where you can't simply turn program an on/off switch and everything else will run fine. If trading were to be enabled in FE4, then the individualized unit funds and the Pawn Shop become utterly meaningless, Thieves lose their primary purpose, and the Arena and villages would need modification to their gold payouts. IS would need to do so much revamping, it'd become questionable whether it'd be worth the extra effort including the old system as well. Not every game can be like Odin Sphere: Leifthrasir, where the questionable item-based "Classic" gameplay was kept alongside the far smoother action of the new "Refined" gameplay.

Edited by Interdimensional Observer
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14 hours ago, Acacia Sgt said:

For a series that likes to employ RNG for a lot of things, what's adding a few more?

A shitty design choice the moment stuff that shouldn't be left up to RNG is.

14 hours ago, Pengaius said:

Hate to break it to ya man, but fire emblem is a very RNG heavy game in general. Your units can still miss their attacks, is that bad from a gameplay perspective? If you really want to RNG proof Thracia's earlygame, just use Eyvel, the game rigs all combat so that she survives no matter what. 

I don't have a problem with that. Otherwise, I likely wouldn't be here, would I? HOWEVER, I draw the line at the fact that healing staves can miss in Thracia.

14 hours ago, forsettipatty said:

FE3 dismounting may have been done better, but as it stands I think FE5 dismounting still was a good balancing mechanic

That's bull. It neuters any mounted unit that specializes in lances or axes. It doesn't make any sense either; why would someone like Finn just discard all their training and instead fight with a weapon they're not good with the minute they get off their horse?

13 hours ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

Plenty of marksmen have missed a still target.

We should try to answer the question "why don't you like staves missing?" with something other than a question.

You do realize that has fuck all to do with the topic, do you not?

And I have, multiple times over: because it doesn't make a lick of sense, and literally no other RPG does it.

Edited by Shadow Mir
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3 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

HOWEVER, I draw the line at the fact that healing staves can miss in Thracia.

So you feel that support abilities should be totally infallible, yes? Do you just feel that healing is to weak if it can miss or do you take issue with the fact that a staff miss can lead to a character death far more easily than for instance a bow miss? I'm pretty sure that heal missing is only there so that status staves can miss because: hardware limitations, that said would you remove heal missing if it meant status staves would never miss either. 

Also, imma ask again, what do you consider the difference between fair difficulty and bullcrap difficulty. 

 

My own two cents is that as somebody who loves the gambling nature of rng staff missing is just another fun gamble. Also it's hilarious when the Dark mages miss with their rewarp staves and just stand there for a hot minute looking like idiots. 

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16 hours ago, forsettipatty said:

Some problems I have w this take:

-two of the hardest chapters in the game, Chapter 4 and 4x, do not have a healer

-A healer is not essential even when you have Nanna for chapter 5, 6, and 7. Vulneraries are very powerful in this game, and you can steal them off of practically every soldier in 4 if you're worried.

-In what I consider to be the hardest part of thracia, Chapter 19-24x, you have plenty of different healers with enough skill to never miss a heal.

Staves missing always benefited the player more than the enemy.

-That's a fair assessment.

-I generally prefer to have vulneraries and such as backup for in the event it's too dangerous to have my healers advance for one reason or another (or in the case of 3 Houses, running out of spells, which is actually a legitimate worry in the earlygame). Even in Radiant Dawn, where you legitimately could argue that healers weren't very useful.

-Doesn't change the fact that it being a thing is stupid and inexcusable to begin with. Even by the standards of the NES era, where the second games in most series deviated significantly from the norm. I mean, I could excuse the fact that healers needed to get attacked to gain experience in FE1, stupid as it was, because it was their first time, but healing staves missing is something that I consider inexcusable and unforgivable.

1 hour ago, Pengaius said:

So you feel that support abilities should be totally infallible, yes? Do you just feel that healing is to weak if it can miss or do you take issue with the fact that a staff miss can lead to a character death far more easily than for instance a bow miss? I'm pretty sure that heal missing is only there so that status staves can miss because: hardware limitations, that said would you remove heal missing if it meant status staves would never miss either. 

Also, imma ask again, what do you consider the difference between fair difficulty and bullcrap difficulty. 

 

My own two cents is that as somebody who loves the gambling nature of rng staff missing is just another fun gamble. Also it's hilarious when the Dark mages miss with their rewarp staves and just stand there for a hot minute looking like idiots. 

Pretty much, at least when it comes to healing and buffing. I would imagine that if that happened, in, say, a Final Fantasy game, players would riot and eviscerate the fuck out of it. Also, aren't status staves' odds of success tied to the magic of the user versus the magic of the target?

Not relying too much on hiding vital knowledge from the player or having too much in terms of cumbersome mechanics that make it obvious that the difficulty is artificial. 

Edited by Shadow Mir
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Well, when it happens in Final Fantasy, it's usually due to accuracy debuffs, like Blind.

Personally, I've got not much love on the RNG dictating stat growths, which is something that's been in FE since Day 1. Yet here I am, too. Would that also qualify as artificial difficulty? What is even the distinction between "artificial" difficulty and... what, "natural" difficulty? "Organic"? Does it even matter? Difficulty is difficulty. You have more or less of it; and that's it, I'd think.

Edited by Acacia Sgt
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1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

Pretty much, at least when it comes to healing and buffing. I would imagine that if that happened, in, say, a Final Fantasy game, players would riot and eviscerate the fuck out of it.

Fun fact, in most Final Fantasy games you can miss with healing magic (such as when attacking zombies with the cure spell) you'd probably be annoyed to know that the basic revive spell in most of the games, even if you land a hit only has a fixed 60-70%~ chance of succeeding, so evil if you're on target, you can still fail to resurrect a party member. (Thracia looking a whole lot more merciful now) 

1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

Also, aren't status staves' odds of success tied to the magic of the user versus the magic of the target?

Not in Jugdral, in fe4 you just need more magic than the enemy's res and your hit was guaranteed, in Thracia you need more magic than your opponent or you can't target them, but you can still miss, as all staves use the same hit formula. Even rewarp, which never fails to amuse, because by the time your guys can use it, they should have enough skill to not miss, so only the enemy will ever miss a rewarp. 

1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

Not relying too much on hiding vital knowledge from the player or having too much in terms of cumbersome mechanics that make it obvious that the difficulty is artificial. 

I'm like 90% sure that staff missing was in the instruction booklet, back in the day where most games didn't even give you tutorials, just a plot synopsis, how the game worked and the control scheme. I still don't get what you mean by artificial difficulty tbh, could you give some other mechanics, like not Thracia ones if at all possible. 

Edited by Pengaius
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2 hours ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Well, when it happens in Final Fantasy, it's usually due to accuracy debuffs, like Blind.

Doesn't Blind only affect physical attack accuracy? Except for in the original version of FF6, where evade was bugged and thus Blind didn't really affect accuracy (which rendered Goggles, which prevent Blind, useless), leaving the only effect it had gameplay wise preventing Strago from learning Blue Magic)

1 hour ago, Pengaius said:

Fun fact, in most Final Fantasy games you can miss with healing magic (such as when attacking zombies with the cure spell) you'd probably be annoyed to know that the basic revive spell in most of the games, even if you land a hit only has a fixed 60-70%~ chance of succeeding, so evil if you're on target, you can still fail to resurrect a party member. (Thracia looking a whole lot more merciful now) 

I never saw any of that happening, ever. 

1 hour ago, Pengaius said:

I'm like 90% sure that staff missing was in the instruction booklet, back in the day where most games didn't even give you tutorials, just a plot synopsis, how the game worked and the control scheme. I still don't get what you mean by artificial difficulty tbh, could you give some other mechanics, like not Thracia ones if at all possible. 

Given that the game was released in Japan only, that doesn't help those of us who can't read Japanese (or those of us who have to emulate), now does it?

1 hour ago, Pengaius said:

Not in Jugdral, in fe4 you just need more magic than the enemy's res and your hit was guaranteed, in Thracia you need more magic than your opponent or you can't target them, but you can still miss, as all staves use the same hit formula. Even rewarp, which never fails to amuse, because by the time your guys can use it, they should have enough skill to not miss, so only the enemy will ever miss a rewarp. 

Huh. I knew that was the case in Genealogy (except change magic to resistance, as they were separate stats as opposed to being the same as in Thracia).

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25 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Doesn't Blind only affect physical attack accuracy? Except for in the original version of FF6, where evade was bugged and thus Blind didn't really affect accuracy (which rendered Goggles, which prevent Blind, useless), leaving the only effect it had gameplay wise preventing Strago from learning Blue Magic)

I never saw any of that happening, ever. 

Given that the game was released in Japan only, that doesn't help those of us who can't read Japanese (or those of us who have to emulate), now does it?

In IV it does halve magical accuracy, though I think some spells are exempt.

He might be confusing it with Dragon Quest, since over there resurrection spells do miss. That said, I found this, stating FFII's version of Cure has a 50% accuracy. At least the NES version. Though not sure where exactly that 50% applies. When used on undead? During healing? All the time? Since if I remember best, due to the Spell Level system, the way Cure works in FFII is that each spell level means the spell is cast that number of times when using the spell (no difference on MP, I think). So Cure XVI, the max, means you get the effect of sixteen cure spells. Or less, due to the 50% accuracy thing. At least, that's the idea. Haven't found much info of it, no matter how much I've searched.

Considering it's not intended to be emulated (as well as illegal), outside of eShop/VC style emulation, there's not much room for valid complain there. If you're doing it the legal way of importing it or from an online shop (iirc, those do come with online manuals)... well, either way it's on you on acquiring a game from a language you can't understand, availability of stuff like manuals aside. So either you know or make the effort to learn the language, or you have to content with the fact you're not going to understand it anyway. Or ask people who knows for help.

Edited by Acacia Sgt
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17 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

You have a point. More options are usually better, but, for practical purposes, a game usually needs to be balanced around one specific set of criteria. Too many options, and perhaps the developers don't know which or choose the wrong ones to construct the balance upon.

I would also argue that more options is not inherently beneficial to the game. Seth is an option in FE8, you don't have to use him, but he's so broken that he overall decreases the quality of the experience. To produce the most fun, you have to force the player to confront certain challenges, typically enemies. Forcing them to deal with fatigue may also produce more fun, depending on circumstances.

6 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

You do realize that has fuck all to do with the topic, do you not?

And I have, multiple times over: because it doesn't make a lick of sense, and literally no other RPG does it.

You're wrong, though. You said, "healers shouldn't miss because people aren't trying to avoid healing." Still targets don't try to avoid being hit. People still miss them. If your argument is entirely based on "sense" as it applies to magic, then what's sensible about the implication that dodging be the only way for an action to fail?

Again, it doesn't matter whether other games do it. If Mario was the only game with jumping, it wouldn't make jumping a bad mechanic. It's hardly sensible that this chubby paisano can hop thirty feet in the air, but it's still fun.

1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

Given that the game was released in Japan only, that doesn't help those of us who can't read Japanese (or those of us who have to emulate), now does it?

How likely is it that someone is going to emulate Thracia and not know that staves can miss? I feel like the chance of a Japanese player not reading the manual is much higher than an English-speaker emulating it and not knowing about that.

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1 hour ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

How likely is it that someone is going to emulate Thracia and not know that staves can miss?

I dunno...  There are people who like to play games blind, even if they have to emulate them.

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I wrote a list of new mechanics introduced in Thracia and many of these mechanics were just cut out or largely modified in future installments. 

Some of the new mechanics just weren't used at their fullest. People say fatigue exists to prevent overuse of the same units but I heavily disagree. There's so many stamina drinks and strong combat units have good HP that you can just rotate around decent units. Fatigue resetting to 0 after one level is pretty big. Fatigue only seems to exist as poor bandaid to the stop people from using staffs.

Staffs are so laughably overpowered, especially late game. It ends up that the best strategy ends up just being just staff abuse and skip the actual level and you probably should as some levels are just dumb/lame like 21x, 22, and 24x. Or just completely incapacitate annoying enemies like status staffs.

Some of the escape levels don't feel like they were designed as escape levels. Some maps just have 0 worry of a unit dying at the end of a map and Leif needs to awkwardly wait. Chapter 5 is a huge example with the stupid ass treasure chest outside. 

This game does have some pretty fun mechanics like FUCC and infinite trading but a lot of the unique mechanics are just stupid like movement stars, floored/capped hit rates, and staff missing. These mechanics are just frustrating and/or unpredictable. 

Thracia mechanics.txt

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2 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Given that the game was released in Japan only, that doesn't help those of us who can't read Japanese (or those of us who have to emulate), now does it?

I probably should have been clearer with my point. You are calling staff missing a “hidden mechanic" one not disclosed to the player, I'm saying that because it was put in the games manual, it's not an intentionally hidden mechanic, so it's not bad design or fake difficulty, if you don't know that Thracia staves can miss, that just means you the player didn't do your research on this Japanese game. 

1 hour ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

How likely is it that someone is going to emulate Thracia and not know that staves can miss? I feel like the chance of a Japanese player not reading the manual is much higher than an English-speaker emulating it and not knowing about that.

This. 

To not be aware of staff missing as an English speaker, you would have to:

  • Have knowledge that Thracia 776 is a game in the fire emblem series, but not know much about it. 
  • Know where to find a translation patch compatible to the Thracia rom you download, but not gleam any context of the game's "interesting" mechanics from the forum or website where you sourced the patch. 
  • Play the game and have a staff unit miss their heal. 

This is fairly unlikely, so it's not the game's fault. 

2 hours ago, Acacia Sgt said:

He might be confusing it with Dragon Quest, since over there resurrection spells do miss.

Almost certain that I failed a resurrect in whichever game Terra was from, eh my bad. Ah zing, laughably unreliable, there is truly nothing more dragon quest than exiting a battle and having to fail at reviving your ally five whole times in a row. Man I miss DQ9

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6 minutes ago, Pengaius said:

Almost certain that I failed a resurrect in whichever game Terra was from, eh my bad. Ah zing, laughably unreliable, there is truly nothing more dragon quest than exiting a battle and having to fail at reviving your ally five whole times in a row. Man I miss DQ9

Hmm, it might be possible some games do have it that way. Looking up, I see the FFWiki saying III's Raise spell is only 15% accurate. By III I do mean III, not SNES!VI. Also, found a GameFaqs thread that states II's spell % accuracy, not only confirming it's version of Cure does have only 50% accuracy; but other spells like it's own Raise spell too at 50.

Interesting...

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 3/31/2020 at 2:19 AM, forsettipatty said:

Yes, this entire thread is subjective.

You say that, but you objectively, seriously, ask the question "Do people really not like these features?" when you yourself know that whether people like these mechanics or not is subjective.

You need to accept that a lot of FE fans (like me) only care about the RPG side of the gameplay, as well as the games overall; the story, leveling up and promoting into cool, new evolutionary classes-type gameplay, the music, etc... and not at all the chess like "balanced" strategic stuff.

Maybe this "isn't what fire emblem is supposed to be" but who gives a damn? It's fun for me and loads of other people to play this way, and it seems you and a few others like 'Mekkah' online, are trying to subtlety "educate" us why we're wrong about what we like, and we should just go find another series. Elitism basically.

The people who are only in the series for "waifus" and hate on anyone who disagrees with them are just as bad imo.

Edited by Dinar87
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I personally enjoy them, since there is a lot more "depth" with these mechanics, making the game more interesting in other playthroughs. Although I think when people say, "the game doesn't tell you staves can miss!' is poor design, well, a lot of games have "poor design" then, not just this one. For example, FE9 doesn't tell you Ike only promotes right before ch 18, or FE6 Roy in the same aspect, or the FE7 Lords, and it goes on, so would that be "poor design"? I'm not sure what's justified as "good design" but all FE games have bad design somewhere, that i'm sure of.

FE10 having resolves description wrong with it's activation rate is "poor design" as well then.

The short version: I don't think it's fair to hold not so great designs against a few games and not all of them, so I will judge them all for their poor choices, not just Thracia.

Edited by lightcosmo
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9 hours ago, Dinar87 said:

Maybe this "isn't what fire emblem is supposed to be" but who gives a damn? It's fun for me and loads of other people to play this way, and it seems you and a few others like 'Mekkah' online, are trying to subtlety "educate" us why we're wrong about what we like, and we should just go find another series. Elitism basically.

You can enjoy something without it being good. I think Mekkah would rather you actually just like Thracia instead of play something else, but I'm not Dutch so I can't vouch for the guy.

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7 hours ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

You can enjoy something without it being good. I think Mekkah would rather you actually just like Thracia instead of play something else, but I'm not Dutch so I can't vouch for the guy.

This is true IMO, but I think this applies more to Thracia than to the likes of Three Houses (which is far more popular than Thracia) since Three Houses being a more successful game, even with all the better marketing, is also based on things like divine pulse and casual modes and stuff allowing for more accessibility for new players and old ones too.

Edited by Dinar87
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