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How do you think avatars should be handled?


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Ever since FE 12, self-insert avatars have started to become something of a staple of the series and it doesn't look like they're going anywhere anytime soon. With that in mind, I'm curious how would you all like avatars to be implemented in future titles. how do you all think they should down? and what do you think is the proper way to handle an avatar with these games? Personally I feel they should aim more towards the Robin or Byleth route where they sort of act as a compliment to the main lord allowing said lord to be more complex and developed but that's just me. 

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Robin and Byleth might be less bad, but frankly I think they need to take player decision making outside of battle far more seriously.

I understand that does need a serious investment, but I would consider it a big positive for it. I can live with relatively limited customability. I can live with supports not being amazing with the avatar if they're as good as we've seen them elsewhere. I just want to see decision making with the story change smaller matters as well, knowing the complications of making multi-route campaigns.

That or try shelving it for next time. Somehow I doubt they're going to add them to remakes, considering the reception to it with SoV. I mean the next new title.

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If possible, don't make them as important as the actual main protagonist, if there is one.  If needed, the Avatar can make some important decisions about what the protagonist and their army should do next, but anything more is risky.

Robin came close to this until the last arc of Awakening.

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Story:

I think they should be the witness: they aren't relevant to the outcome, but they are part of the team. Think of custom characters like Rook from Xenoblade Chronicles X: they're the point-of-view character, but the lord is the real main character. I think they should be a silent protagonist with different dialogue choices. 

Gameplay:

They should not start off with a unique class: instead, their starting class should be a standard class decided by the player, as should their skill levels (assuming Three Houses), bases and growths. 

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An avatar is supposed to represent the player, and the core gameplay of Fire Emblem is the player is directing the soldiers how to move. So Blazing Sword has already established how an avatar should be handled.

The more an avatar is integrated into the plot, the more the plot suffers. I think it’s because an avatar is not allowed to not be sympathetic.

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Byleth was basically perfect... and was a viewpoint character, not an avatar*. Which I'm entirely fine with, and benefited the game. Honestly I'm not even convinced they should've been able to be renamed, though, like, this is absolutely not my hill to die on. I wouldn't mind seeing them go a more RPG direction, if they lean into it more. Also wouldn't mind them removing avatars as a concept entirely; FE15 showed it was fine to just put a thing entirely from the lord's perspective even from the more 3D, just-behind-the-camera perspective.

* Sure, you could pick Byleth's lines, but always from a very limited palette and emotional range. They have an established background, personality and deep, deep flaws.

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I prefer when there is another lord with them. I think they did a great job with Byleth and Robin actually. 

And keep them relevant to the story please. I know some people think getting another Mark would be a good idea, but it's not.

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51 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

Story:

I think they should be the witness: they aren't relevant to the outcome, but they are part of the team. Think of custom characters like Rook from Xenoblade Chronicles X: they're the point-of-view character, but the lord is the real main character. I think they should be a silent protagonist with different dialogue choices. 

Gameplay:

They should not start off with a unique class: instead, their starting class should be a standard class decided by the player, as should their skill levels (assuming Three Houses), bases and growths. 

Guess I'm with Vanguard.

I actually would like to see how the Franchise would handle something like a mix between Chris and Mark. That is, a important-not-important character (Mark) where you can decide class/bases/growths (Chris). Not sure about appearances and personality.

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Generally I'd say I prefer a character more present in the story. I liked the idea of Mark, but I didn't feel like he was a "point of view" character, because I kept forgetting that he (and thus, I) existed in the game's story. Byleth felt like a decent enough avatar, but I think he/she kind of suffered from subpar dialogue choices a lot of the time, and felt a little too dominant in the story (I know I sound like I'm whinging, but I believe there's a fine line that can and should be followed). Somebody already mentioned this, but Cross/Rook/whatever you named him from Xenoblade X was a pretty good example. He was just kind of there, in the party, but you never forgot his existence, and you had some decent dialogue choices to make (though I'm still pretty early in the game, so take this with a grain of salt). At least atm, I don't really feel like the main character when I'm playing.

Gameplay wise, I have a really stupid idea: players can choose whether they want their avatar to be a combatant, in which case they become a unit with customisable class and boons/banes á la Fates/Awakening, or something closer to Mark, where they don't fight, but introduce supportive effects from the background, like an armywide boost to hit, crit, damage, etc. It'd have to be balanced enough so that the bonuses are worth losing what is potentially one of your best units, but I think that it could be kind of cool.
 

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Do away with them for a game or two, or relegate to pretty much gameplay-only. I will concur the XCX Cross approach is sufficiently nonexistent to my tastes.

Of course, with modern unit flexibility, the big sell of an avatar in gameplay you can make them whatever you want, is lost.

Yet, Kris the first avatar was introduced in a game with super easy reclass for everyone not Marth, Xane and the Thieketes. And Byleth is far less customizable than any predecessor avatar, while the customizability of everyone else is higher than in Awakening and Fates (barring their kiddos). So the avatar is debatably now more around for narrative self-insertion than gameplay uniqueness.

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1 hour ago, BergelomeuSantos said:

Guess I'm with Vanguard.

1 hour ago, Anathaco said:

Generally I'd say I prefer a character more present in the story. I liked the idea of Mark, but I didn't feel like he was a "point of view" character, because I kept forgetting that he (and thus, I) existed in the game's story. Byleth felt like a decent enough avatar, but I think he/she kind of suffered from subpar dialogue choices a lot of the time, and felt a little too dominant in the story (I know I sound like I'm whinging, but I believe there's a fine line that can and should be followed). Somebody already mentioned this, but Cross/Rook/whatever you named him from Xenoblade X was a pretty good example. He was just kind of there, in the party, but you never forgot his existence, and you had some decent dialogue choices to make (though I'm still pretty early in the game, so take this with a grain of salt). At least atm, I don't really feel like the main character when I'm playing.

Aw, thanks.

 

1 hour ago, BergelomeuSantos said:

I actually would like to see how the Franchise would handle something like a mix between Chris and Mark. That is, a important-not-important character (Mark) where you can decide class/bases/growths (Chris). Not sure about appearances and personality.

Hm... I think that, in terms of appearances, there should be a lot of customization. To once again look at Rook from Xenoblade Chronicles X, there was a lot of customization for the appearance. I don't necessarily think it should go as far as Rook, but it should definitely have a lot of options and variety.

One thing I would ask for is a proper gauge for hair colour that allows the character to have exactly the hair colour that the player wants them to have, rather than a limited colour palette that includes blonde, brown and dark, but doesn't include red (cough Awakening and Fates cough). 

As far as personality goes, perhaps one way to do so would be through the dialogue options: they could have little symbols next to them indicating if an option is sarcastic, angry, sad, etc. Perhaps another option would be to have the player pick character traits at the start of the game, and that would determine which dialogue options are available. That is a tough one. 

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I think they need to be a normal character, written in a certain way, and then with customization added in after. They shouldn't be the chosen one, but they should be in a position to control strategy and influence training regimens.

 

For example, Soren would make a great avatar. Aside from being such a jackass, I mean. 

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Story: No big plot significance.  But maybe have them keep a journal on the war or something.

Mechanics: FE12 was a good start.  Personality quiz determines who you can support, and how far.  Choosing some starting traits will influence bases and growths.  You choose your starting class, and reclassing is subject to. . .say, personality quiz results and some other stuff.

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in my opinion, the best way for IntSys to handle avatars in Fire Emblem is not to handle them at all to use them as purely plot-irrelevant figures who give orders to their armies, with little to zero dialogue lines whatsoever: in one word, Mark
personally Mark is the best way to represent the player in Fire Emblem games: not with a bland but forcibly relevant character, not with an extremely plot-relevant but mute character, but as the simple incarnation of what the player actually does in a Fire Emblem game, which is giving orders, managing every unit's inventory, the army's founds and so on
i guess, if IntSys REALLY WANTS TO, avatars could also be actual units just like Kris, but that's already too much for my tastes

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Seems to be the general consensus, but I would like it like White Knight Chronicles. You have a character and can fully customize them but they are just another body/fighter in the team with zero plot importance.(I like to think during the cutscenes of that game my unit was actually doing their job). Like they could easily be a millita/mercenary or what not just along for the ride 

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I think Byleth is as close as I'd like for Avatars, but for the love of God, IS, stop making them uber-special savior types. If Byleth was JUST a quiet, but talented child of a respected knight and his equally respected wife, I think they'd be a fine Avatar. With more physical customizations.

The last 3 Avatars have been:

  • The living body of the most physically powerful dragon in possibly the whole series
  • The child of a space/time warping dragon that's revered as a god
  • The child of 
    Spoiler

    a vessel for the creator dragon/god, and currently possessing her spirit, effectively making Byleth her reincarnation

     

The interplay of the main lords of FETH(And Fates, to be honest) is much more interesting than another messiah/savior story, and it really feels like shoehorning in a "You're special, you're the reason everything works out" message just kneecaps the potential of the stories. If Chris didn't have the massive ego-stroking, I feel like that would have been fine, too.

Edited by Slumber
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2 hours ago, ciphertul said:

Seems to be the general consensus, but I would like it like White Knight Chronicles. You have a character and can fully customize them but they are just another body/fighter in the team with zero plot importance.(I like to think during the cutscenes of that game my unit was actually doing their job). Like they could easily be a millita/mercenary or what not just along for the ride 

I think that is way too far in the opposite direction. Not only was the avatar in WKC notably graphically inferior to everyone else, to the point that they stood out like a sore thumb, but their existence was actively ignored by everyone else.

 

I get not revolving a story around the avatar, but having them be a third wheel that may as well not exist at all is just as bad, if not worse, from a writing standpoint.

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53 minutes ago, Etheus said:

I think that is way too far in the opposite direction. Not only was the avatar in WKC notably graphically inferior to everyone else, to the point that they stood out like a sore thumb, but their existence was actively ignored by everyone else.

 

I get not revolving a story around the avatar, but having them be a third wheel that may as well not exist at all is just as bad, if not worse, from a writing standpoint.

But isn’t that the catch? Either they are key in the story or they are not. For most of the game Robin felt like a third wheel. I don’t think they could(or would) find a middle ground on this.

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40 minutes ago, ciphertul said:

But isn’t that the catch? Either they are key in the story or they are not. For most of the game Robin felt like a third wheel. I don’t think they could(or would) find a middle ground on this.

I think the ideal middle ground would be something like Rook from Xenoblade Chronicles X: they're there as witness to what's happening, and they participate, but they are not the protagonist when it comes to the story. Basically, Rook is the focus during side content, but Elma is the focus during the story segments. 

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27 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

I think the ideal middle ground would be something like Rook from Xenoblade Chronicles X: they're there as witness to what's happening, and they participate, but they are not the protagonist when it comes to the story. Basically, Rook is the focus during side content, but Elma is the focus during the story segments. 

I get that, but I still don’t think they would do that. My example may have been to removed for the style but that is generally what I meant. I think the avatar just being a soldier in the lord’s army would make for a interesting point of view 

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10 hours ago, eclipse said:

Story: No big plot significance.  But maybe have them keep a journal on the war or something.

Ah yes, the "I'm the narrator whose recollection of the war with additional evidence of events gathered postwar is being told and experienced here" approach. FE hasn't used it yet, so it's not a bad/overused idea for it. Thats what Valkyria Chronicles has been using for every game, minus an avatar nevermind I find Welkin to visually resemble Male Robin.

Edited by Interdimensional Observer
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Like a free unit that isn't much relevant, just customize and make him into something you want and that's it. I really don't like avatars in games.

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Gameplaywise, the most important aspect about avatars should be customizability. While I don't believe the player should be able to choose every little detail, give them the ability to choose what class they start in and what else they can reclass into, what stats they start high or low in, how their growth rates are distributed and the like. If personal skills return, allow one to be picked. Maybe even have something akin to Fallouts traits where you can choose an ability that has an advantage and disadvantage, such as maybe being able to counter at 1 range with 2 range weapons at the cost of reduced accuracy overall or having a great chance to activate armthrift in exchange for lowering the rate to activate other offensive skills and so on. Heck, if it's well-done, maybe have the ability to determine what the avatars background a la Mount and Blade or Darklands and have that affect class options and stats. It is possible for this amount of customization to backfire and only a select few options end up being worthwhile, but that depends largely on how the rest of the game is designed.

 

How the avatar should be handled in the story is the biggest snag. Nearly every game I can think of that handled avatars well were either open-ended enough that the player could do almost anything they wanted, including ignoring the plot entirely, or the experience was designed around the player discovering and reacting to what a game had to offer instead of watching a character do so. For instance, while the Fallout games have always had a goal to achieve, the focus was more on what the player would encounter while exploring the wasteland. You don't control your AI partners because the game isn't about a party of adventures slaying the big bad guy; it's about what you do and experience after the nuclear holocaust. Or in the Knights of the Old Republic games, being able to agree or disagree with other characters in both dialogue and actions had far more of an impact when it was "me" making those choices instead of some pre-established character. Even in the second KOTOR game, where the Exile decided to join a war regardless of the players input, you can still decided whether you regret participating, don't regret joining even after knowing what would happen afterwards, only joined because violence, if you are still undecided, and so on.

However, none of those games have a playable cast of 20 to 40 characters, each of whom has their own story, personality, and gameplay utility. The plot may have to focus on a select few of these characters, but the rest of the cast gets to shine through supports, side comments, and battle dialogue. While some Fire Emblem games offer more freedom than others, none of them are truly open-ended, and an appeal of the series is learning more about the characters as the game goes on rather than on how the player personally perceives things. I'm far from saying that an avatar wouldn't work in a Fire Emblem game, but the focus would need to be different:

 

If the avatar is a main character, then the game could get the most out of them by making the the player directly lead their forces, whether as a king or queen, a general of an army, the head of a mercenary group, and so on. Your choices in and outside of combat should focus on guiding your soldiers and having to deal with the different personalities in each group, and how every decision can have significant consequences on a large group of people. While this could potentially lead to a retread of the "everyone loves the avatar!" issue all of them suffer from, this could also be the best way of making the avatar the "main character" of a Fire Emblem game and re-contextualizing already present mechanics.

If the avatar is a lowly soldier who would be just another unit in a different game, then the direction should instead be on seeing a war through the eyes of the ones fighting it. The player may be the leader of a squadron, but they shouldn't be the second-in-command of the king, queen, prince, or princess. There should be a sense that while you may have a direct impact during battle, you can't do anything about the overarching story since it doesn't focus on "you".This would be a good compromise between making the avatar "insignificant to the plot" while also not just being a single unit you can change the hair color of.

If the avatar is an adviser to the lord, then have my advice be considered, utilized, argued, ignored, etc. Allow the player to pipe in and give different strategies, options, and opinions on a single situation. I understand why Robin's strategies were handled the way they were since the plot was linear and there is only so many ways you can write a single scene before things are over-complicated, but at the very least give the illusion that my choice matters or that my voice was heard. Have some options affect the story and gameplay, while others don't. It'll be a tricky balancing act between how much and how little the player can affect the overall story, but if executed well, it could also find the best balance between having the avatar being important to the plot while not dominating it.

 

... I spent a lot more time thinking about that than I thought I would. TL;DR Give the avatar more customizability in gameplay, and make sure the plot takes advantage of there being an avatar by giving the player some input without making them the driving force.

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  • 1 month later...

I'm personally not a fan of most of the avatar's in my experience.

With Robin and Byleth, they don't really feel like Avatars, they're set in stone in who they are and you don't really get that many meaningful choices, they feel more like a set-in-stone character who's kinda bland.

While Mark was kinda nothing, he was a nothing you could make up a backstory and somewhat of a personality for, I honestly prefer it.

I'd rather them have an new avatar be more like Mark, a kinda void that you're allowed to make up the specifics of yourself, maybe even have any dialogue choices (if they exist.) more be like "You say they look pretty" or so and so so you're allowed to imagine what exactly was said.

Also don't turn out to be anyone special, please, I really don't like it and it feels alot like a game trying to inflate your ego.

Also mostly get rid of praise in supports and such or if they exist, make it so it's actually determined if I'm actually doing well, If I can get praise for keeping people alive. (Such as Virion's supports in Awakening if I remember.) when theoretically I could have gotten alot of people dead, it just feels like again, trying to artifically inflate the player's ego. 

Mechanically, either they don't appear on the battlefield like Mark or they could be somewhat similar to an FE7 Dancer in that they buff uinits rather than fighting Directly, maybe like how Echoes has certain characters always support others if they have to fight, then they should be a rather poor fighter stat-wise so it's really more of a self-defense thing. (Maybe they'd get some EXP whenever another unit they're buffing kills an enemy.)

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