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XRay

Penalty Skill Interactions (WIP)

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Since there was just a question about the subject in the Ask Question thread, I figured now is good time to really start clearing this matter up. I am going to tag @Azuni, @eclipse, @Diovani Bressan, and @Ice Dragon since they are more knowledgeable than me on the subject and can correct me if I am wrong. I am not sure what is the best way to format this, so I am using a question and answer format. Let me know if there is a better way layout the info so it is easier to understand.

Link to page 6 of Familial Festivities thread, Penalty information there.

I think I have the basic understanding down, but I am still trying to wrap my head around it, so there are most likely some mistakes and misunderstandings on my part right now. Anyways...

— — — — — — —

THIS IS A WORK IN PROGRESS, SO TAKE THE FOLLOWING INFO WITH A GRAIN OF SALT!!!

What is a Penalty?

Here is the game's definition/explantation:
【Penalty】All effects that last "on foe through its next action." Includes penalties inflicted by a skill like Panic or Threaten and negative status effects (preventing counterattacks, restricting movement, or the effects of a skill like Triangle Adept or Guard).

There are two main subtypes of Penalties. There are regular stat Penalties from skills like Chills and Ploys, and negative status effects from skills like Flash or Gravity. Panic is a special case where it has properties of both types of Penalties.

When a Penalty is inflicted on a unit, it can be thought of as having two components. It has an in-combat component and an out-of-combat component. The in-combat component is simply the debuff or negative status effect that the unit is experiencing during combat, such as dealing less damage due Atk-7 or not being able to charge Specials due to Guard status effect. The out-of-combat component is the labelling of the unit as having a debuff, such as the status icon that you see on the unit on the field.

How do Penalties, Penalty negating skills, and Penalty checking skills interact?

Penalty negating skills (PNS) all mask the in-combat component of Penalties. Penalty checking skills (PCS) check whether the unit has a Penalty.

Some Penalty negating skills will completely mask Penalties (CPNS) from PCSs, so the PCS skill will not activate.

However, other Penalty negating skills only partially masks Penalties (PPNS), masking only the in-combat effects of the Penalties, and they do not mask the fact that the Penalty is there. When a Penalty, PPNS, and PCS are all present, PPNS will disable the effects of the Penalty, but PCS will see that the Penalty is still there and the PCS will activate.

Abbreviations:
PNS: Penalty Negating Skill
CPNS: Complete Penalty Negating Skill
PPNS: Partial Penalty Negating Skill
PCS: Penalty Checking Skill

Examples and Illustrations

lorem ipsum

Which skills completely mask Penalties and which ones partially mask Penalties?

COMPLETE

Spoiler

— Melee Weapons —
Balmung (Shannan)
Demonic Breath (Idunn)
Zephyr Breath (Idunn: Dragonkin Duo)
— Ranged Weapons —
Gleipnir [special] (Eirika: Anamnesis Lady)
Randgriðr (Chrom: Crowned Exalt)
Fimbulvetr (Brunnya)

PARTIAL

Spoiler

— Melee Weapons —
Carrot Cudgel (Bartre: Earsome Warrior)
Gilt Fork (Narcian: Vernal General)
Eagle's Egg (Est: Springtime Flier)
— A —
Atk/Spd Bond
Atk/Def Bond
Atk/Res Bond
Spd/Def Bond
Spd/Res Bond
Def/Res Bond

Which skills check and exploit which type of Penalties?

 

Broadleaf Fan (Lilina: Beachside Bloom)
Blizzard (Gunnthrá)

Light of Dawn (Micaiah: Queen of Dawn)
Cunning Bow (Claude)
Saizo's Star (Saizo)

Gjöll
Spy's Dagger

Notable Interaction Exceptions

Gjöll
Spy's Dagger

— — — — — — —

Spoiler

— Melee Weapons —
Balmung (Shannan)
Demonic Breath (Idunn)
Zephyr Breath (Idunn: Dragonkin Duo)
— Ranged Weapons —
Gleipnir [special] (Eirika: Anamnesis Lady)
Randgriðr (Chrom: Crowned Exalt)
Fimbulvetr (Brunnya)

 

 

Edited by XRay

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I have two theories as to why it works the way it does:

1. The new Spring weapons are meant to be a different class altogether (namely, just negate the stat penalty, but not remove the penalty)
2. All other instances of "negate the stat penalty" also include some verbage that increases a stat k]or four instead.  It's possible that there's some back-end coding that's leading to some unexpected interactions.

We aren't going to know for certain unless there's a skill that negates a stat penalty, doesn't give any sort of buff, and cancels out stuff like Blizzard.  I don't think Bond 4 skills would be sufficient proof of the first theory, since it seems like the "negate stat penalty" thing is checked after applying its innate stat bonus (if I'm reading it right).

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Playing around with the following:

  • Spring Bartre (Carrot Cudgel)
  • Brunnya (Fimbulvetr)
  • Legendary Chrom (Randgríðr)
  • Brave Micaiah (both Atk/Res Bond 4 and Light of Dawn)
  • Gunnthra (Blizzard)
  • Saizo (Saizo's Star special refine)
  • Claude (Cunning Bow)
  • Hrid (Gjoll)
  • Panic and debuff combined (whether effects stack or if it picks highest value)

Based on the numbers I got, this is what I saw:

  • Carrot Cudgel and Atk/Res Bond 4 did not prevent the effects from Light of Dawn, Blizzard, Saizo's Star, and Cunning Bow, and any stat bonus to those skills adds the effects of normal stat penalties with Panic (eg: Gunnthra will get +20 Atk from a unit who is suffering -10 in normal penalties and -10 in reversed bonus stats from Panic).
  • Fimbulvetr and Randgríðr ignored all effects from Light of Dawn, Blizzard, Saizo's Star, and Cunning Bow, even with the effect of reversed bonus stats from Panic. Additionally, with Panic, bonus stats are simply nullified in combat instead of reversed.
  • Gjoll will not work against skills that negate specific stat penalties (eg: Atk penalty on unit with Atk/Res Bond 4), but will work when those units are hit with any other bad status effect (Panic, Gravity, etc).

I'd test more but this is all I have for units with penalty related skills.

Edited by Johann

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Brunnya, LChrom, Shannan, Idunn, and Spring Idunn all are under the " MASKS STAT REDUCTION AND STATUS EFFECT" category listed. Luckily there isn't a single unit (so far) that outright negates nasty statuses like Panic, so even the above 5 insane prfs get their field bonuses dropped to 0 by Panic.

I can't test this myself, but in a previous discussion with other people, Matthew's prf is assumed to be in the same category as Broadleaf/Blizzard, which ignores Bond4 neutralization. I don't have a 5* one myself so I'd need someone else to show some visual proof that it doesn't work like those weapons (I apologize if someone did actually post proof in some earlier threads).

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9 hours ago, eclipse said:

I have two theories as to why it works the way it does:

1. The new Spring weapons are meant to be a different class altogether (namely, just negate the stat penalty, but not remove the penalty)
2. All other instances of "negate the stat penalty" also include some verbage that increases a stat k]or four instead.  It's possible that there's some back-end coding that's leading to some unexpected interactions.

We aren't going to know for certain unless there's a skill that negates a stat penalty, doesn't give any sort of buff, and cancels out stuff like Blizzard.  I don't think Bond 4 skills would be sufficient proof of the first theory, since it seems like the "negate stat penalty" thing is checked after applying its innate stat bonus (if I'm reading it right).

I am not sure what you mean. Bonds and Familial Festivities give stats too I think?

5 hours ago, Johann said:
  • Fimbulvetr and Randgríðr ignored all effects from Light of Dawn, Blizzard, Saizo's Star, and Cunning Bow, even with the effect of reversed bonus stats from Panic. Additionally, with Panic, bonus stats are simply nullified in combat instead of reversed.
3 hours ago, Azuni said:

Brunnya, LChrom, Shannan, Idunn, and Spring Idunn all are under the " MASKS STAT REDUCTION AND STATUS EFFECT" category listed. Luckily there isn't a single unit (so far) that outright negates nasty statuses like Panic, so even the above 5 insane prfs get their field bonuses dropped to 0 by Panic.

Cool, I will put those there.

5 hours ago, Johann said:
  • Gjoll will not work against skills that negate specific stat penalties (eg: Atk penalty on unit with Atk/Res Bond 4), but will work when those units are hit with any other bad status effect (Panic, Gravity, etc).

Hm... So that means Gjoll is like Spy's Dagger and only checks stat reduction, but does not check the status effect?

But since it works against Panic and Gravity, does that mean non stat Penalties have two aspects too? Panic and Gravity have a "stat reduction" component in combat on top of their status effect component on the field?

3 hours ago, Azuni said:

I can't test this myself, but in a previous discussion with other people, Matthew's prf is assumed to be in the same category as Broadleaf/Blizzard, which ignores Bond4 neutralization. I don't have a 5* one myself so I'd need someone else to show some visual proof that it doesn't work like those weapons (I apologize if someone did actually post proof in some earlier threads).

Okay, I will make a note for Spy's Dagger to remind us to double check.

I think I can spare some Feathers and Dew, just need some time for the Feathers. I got Broadleaf Fan and Blizzard, so I can test all three.

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39 minutes ago, XRay said:

Hm... So that means Gjoll is like Spy's Dagger and only checks stat reduction, but does not check the status effect?

But since it works against Panic and Gravity, does that mean non stat Penalties have two aspects too? Panic and Gravity have a "stat reduction" component in combat on top of their status effect component on the field?

Uh, sure, if it's easier for you to understand it that way. I think your wording is making it more confusing than it is. Any bad status/penalty will flag Gjoll's effect unless the target has the ability to negate the bad status/penalty in play.

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3 hours ago, XRay said:

I am not sure what you mean. Bonds and Familial Festivities give stats too I think?

You'll need to dig up Ice Dragon's post that has the exact Japanese verbage.  It's slightly more clear there.

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18 hours ago, Johann said:

Gjoll will not work against skills that negate specific stat penalties (eg: Atk penalty on unit with Atk/Res Bond 4), but will work when those units are hit with any other bad status effect (Panic, Gravity, etc).

Huh. That’s...interesting, is the word I’m going with here.

I ran a quick test myself in Paralogue 37-3, using Lilina's Forblaze to apply a Res penalty to Micaiah. Hrid did not get an automatic follow-up from Gjoll, as you described...but Yune, whose Chaos Manifest has a condition worded the exact same way, did get one.

Spoiler

Un5yWcO.png

 

Edited by LordFrigid

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Ugh, still feels like my head is melting trying to understand this stuff.

18 hours ago, Johann said:

Uh, sure, if it's easier for you to understand it that way. I think your wording is making it more confusing than it is. Any bad status/penalty will flag Gjoll's effect unless the target has the ability to negate the bad status/penalty in play.

But there is a difference between an in-combat stat/status reduction and an out-of-combat status effect label on the field.

Bonds only mask the in-combat status reduction and not the out-of-combat status effect.

Similarly, some skills only look at the status reduction and not the status effect, while others look at both. Blizzard for example, will get still get buffed against a unit utilizing Atk/Spd Bond because the Bond skill does not mask the fact that the unit is being labelled as being under the effects of Atk/Spd Penalty.

17 hours ago, eclipse said:

You'll need to dig up Ice Dragon's post that has the exact Japanese verbage.  It's slightly more clear there.

The only thing I managed to pick out is if the skill says nullification at the end, that seems to mean that the skill will only mask the status reduction?

If the skill says nullification and continues on with more effects, that means the skill will mask both the status reduction and status effect.

7 hours ago, LordFrigid said:

Huh. That’s...interesting, is the word I’m going with here.

I ran a quick test myself in Paralogue 37-3, using Lilina's Forblaze to apply a Res penalty to Micaiah. Hrid did not get an automatic follow-up from Gjoll, as you described...but Yune, whose Chaos Manifest has a condition worded the exact same way, did get one.

  Reveal hidden contents

Un5yWcO.png

 

 

I am trying to use the calculator to test things, but it is not helping. Chaos Manifest does not double unless you manually enable it to double.

What I am trying to figure out is if status effects like Gravity and Panic (assuming there are no buffs to reverse) have an in-combat "stat reduction" component, similar to regular stat Penalties like Atk-7 having in-combat stat reduction.

If you have Nailah, can you test out whether Chaos Manifest will still double Nailah if Nailah is inflicted with the Flash effect? I am curious about whether Null C-Disrupt masks the in-combat status reduction as well as the out-of-combat status effect. I have Nailah, but I do not have Yune to test it.

My hypothesis is that since Chaos Manifest doubles Brave Echoes Micaiah, Chaos Manifest checks both the in-combat status reduction and out-of-combat status effect. So if Chaos Manifest does not double a Flashed Nailah, that means Null C-Disrupt masks the in-combat status reduction and out-of-combat status effect.

However, if Chaos Manifest doubles a Flashed Nailah, that means Null C-Disrupt only masks the in-combat status reduction. But more importantly, it gives more evidence that all Penalties have an in-combat status reduction component, even if no stats are involved.

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Sorry for double post, but I cannot edit my previous post.

It seems like the calculator does not bother with trying to figure out whether certain effects apply or not and you have enable effects yourself. Gjöll also will not double unless you enable it to double. I guess I will have to test things out manually using Aether Raids.

20 hours ago, Johann said:

I think your wording is making it more confusing than it is.

Oh, and how should I reword things? Since there are not a lot of official terms to work with, we have to come up with our own terminology. Not sure how to get my point across that when a unit is suffering from a Penalty, they are not just suffering from one Penalty, there are actually two Penalties. There is the Penalty that happens in combat, and there is the Penalty that happens by being labelled as having a Penalty.

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18 hours ago, XRay said:

The only thing I managed to pick out is if the skill says nullification at the end, that seems to mean that the skill will only mask the status reduction?

If the skill says nullification and continues on with more effects, that means the skill will mask both the status reduction and status effect.

Yeah, that's what I suspect.  But I'm not sure whether it's intentional, or just because someone screwed up the internal programming somewhere.  The fact that it's pretty consistent behavior between the Japanese verbage and the effect means that it's probably not a coincidence.

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On 4/2/2020 at 8:28 AM, XRay said:

But there is a difference between an in-combat stat/status reduction and an out-of-combat status effect label on the field.

Bonds only mask the in-combat status reduction and not the out-of-combat status effect.

Similarly, some skills only look at the status reduction and not the status effect, while others look at both. Blizzard for example, will get still get buffed against a unit utilizing Atk/Spd Bond because the Bond skill does not mask the fact that the unit is being labelled as being under the effects of Atk/Spd Penalty.

Yeah, but does anything prevent out-of-combat status effects? Legendary Chrom still has to watch out for Ophelia if he's hit with Panic and stuff, after all. I'm not sure the distinction matters because I don't think that's what's separating skills like Atk/Res Bond 4 and Fimbulvetr-- notice that the ones that ignore Blizzard, et al, negate all penalties, whereas the others only cover specific stats. I think the flags are just different between those sets of negation skills, and the Blizzard group of skills is coded to not even bother checking for penalties when the Fimbulvetr group is actively in play. I wouldn't be surprised if it's a coding oversight that skills like Atk/Res Bond 4 don't provide protection from Blizzard skills.

On 4/2/2020 at 8:59 AM, XRay said:

Oh, and how should I reword things? Since there are not a lot of official terms to work with, we have to come up with our own terminology. Not sure how to get my point across that when a unit is suffering from a Penalty, they are not just suffering from one Penalty, there are actually two Penalties. There is the Penalty that happens in combat, and there is the Penalty that happens by being labelled as having a Penalty.

Dunno, I guess it comes down to you wanting to sum it up in a word or two when even you or I, who understand this stuff, need to use at least a sentence to explain it. I guess to think of the Blizzard group of skills is "penalty exploiting skills" (PESs), Atk/Res Bond 4 group as "partial penalty negating skills" (PPNSs), and Fimbulvetr group as "total penalty negating skills" (TPNSs). Then there's stuff like Gjoll which is "penalty checking skills" (PCSs). Unless we can confirm some discrepancies, what we know seems to stand as follows:

  • Partial Penalty Negating Skills (PPNSs) will prevent reduction to a unit's specified stats in combat (including from Panic'd bonuses). They do not negate the stat bonuses gained by foes using Penalty Exploiting Skills (PESs).
  • Total Penalty Negating Skills (TPNSs) will prevent reduction to all of a unit's stats in combat (including from Panic'd bonuses). They negate the stat bonuses gained by foes using PESs.
  • PPNSs are safe from Penalty Checking Skills (PCSs) if the only penalties they are suffering from are stat penalties they negate. All other penalties or negative status effects will trigger the PCSs.
  • TPNSs are safe from PCSs if they are hit by any stat penalty, but not from negative status effects (including Panic).

I'm not attached to these names, of course, feel free to come up with something better and even neaten up the bullet points.

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On 4/2/2020 at 5:28 AM, XRay said:

If you have Nailah, can you test out whether Chaos Manifest will still double Nailah if Nailah is inflicted with the Flash effect? I am curious about whether Null C-Disrupt masks the in-combat status reduction as well as the out-of-combat status effect. I have Nailah, but I do not have Yune to test it.

I threw together an AR defense map with Nailah and Ophelia, and applied Candlelight+ to Nailah. I brought in Yune and Hrid. I had to take Chaos Manifest off, and Freezing Seal targeted Ophelia (i.e. Nailah only has the "Prevents Counterattacks" status effect).

Both Chaos Manifest and Gjöll granted automatic follow-ups.

On 4/2/2020 at 5:28 AM, XRay said:

What I am trying to figure out is if status effects like Gravity and Panic (assuming there are no buffs to reverse) have an in-combat "stat reduction" component, similar to regular stat Penalties like Atk-7 having in-combat stat reduction.

(snipped)

My hypothesis is that since Chaos Manifest doubles Brave Echoes Micaiah, Chaos Manifest checks both the in-combat status reduction and out-of-combat status effect. So if Chaos Manifest does not double a Flashed Nailah, that means Null C-Disrupt masks the in-combat status reduction and out-of-combat status effect.

However, if Chaos Manifest doubles a Flashed Nailah, that means Null C-Disrupt only masks the in-combat status reduction. But more importantly, it gives more evidence that all Penalties have an in-combat status reduction component, even if no stats are involved.

I'm not sure why you wouldn't just leave it at "in-combat component" and "out-of-combat component", instead of bring in "stat reduction". Overall, I think even trying to describe a status effect as having two distinct and separate components is taking it a little far. We'll never be able to prove how exactly they've implemented things without actually looking at the code.

I'll grant that it's a convenient way to justify the interaction. But so is: "A status effect is an object that has an effect property. Skills that neutralize status effects can neutralize the effect property (such that the status effect exists, but its effect does not affect the unit), or neutralize the status effect itself (such that the status effect is treated as nonexistent). Skills that check status effects can check whether the status effect exists, or whether its effect affects the unit". It's a neat way of thinking about it, but I can't prove that's how they've done it.

I personally like the way that Johann's description discusses the interaction without trying to get into the specifics of what a penalty is in the code. I agree with the stance that trying to create new terminology is over-complicating it.

On 4/2/2020 at 5:28 AM, XRay said:

I am trying to use the calculator to test things, but it is not helping. Chaos Manifest does not double unless you manually enable it to double.

Really. I already wasn't a fan of how they implemented some things (e.g. Blessings, Distant Guard), but...wow. They even have an entire suite of input fields for specifying penalties and status effects.

On a separate note, I would personally recommend restructuring the OP as (1) describe how the interactions work, (2) list which skills check and neutralize what, (3) combat examples. I think that would flow a little better.

Edit: A couple more tests, run by going into Paralogue 37-3, applying a Res Penalty only to Micaiah, and fighting her with various units.

  • Killing Intent was active. Thrasir performed her follow-up before Micaiah's counterattack and got wiped by Glimmer.
  • Petal Parasol was active. Fiora (base kit, no merges, no buffs, 46 printed Atk) dealt 43 damage vs Micaiah's 18 Def.
    • Based on this test, I would guess that Big-Catch Bow and Scallop Blade would also be active in these conditions.
Edited by LordFrigid

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On 4/3/2020 at 9:11 AM, Johann said:

Yeah, but does anything prevent out-of-combat status effects? Legendary Chrom still has to watch out for Ophelia if he's hit with Panic and stuff, after all. I'm not sure the distinction matters because I don't think that's what's separating skills like Atk/Res Bond 4 and Fimbulvetr-- notice that the ones that ignore Blizzard, et al, negate all penalties, whereas the others only cover specific stats. I think the flags are just different between those sets of negation skills, and the Blizzard group of skills is coded to not even bother checking for penalties when the Fimbulvetr group is actively in play. I wouldn't be surprised if it's a coding oversight that skills like Atk/Res Bond 4 don't provide protection from Blizzard skills.

Not that I know of, but I would like to try to check them all eventually. Since Null C-Disrupt does not mask Flash, I assume other skills do not mask either.

Flash — Null C-Disrupt (Partial)
Trilema — Cancel Affinity
Guard — Creator Sword

Not sure if I am missing any other negative status effects.

On 4/3/2020 at 9:11 AM, Johann said:

Dunno, I guess it comes down to you wanting to sum it up in a word or two when even you or I, who understand this stuff, need to use at least a sentence to explain it. I guess to think of the Blizzard group of skills is "penalty exploiting skills" (PESs), Atk/Res Bond 4 group as "partial penalty negating skills" (PPNSs), and Fimbulvetr group as "total penalty negating skills" (TPNSs). Then there's stuff like Gjoll which is "penalty checking skills" (PCSs). Unless we can confirm some discrepancies, what we know seems to stand as follows:

  • Partial Penalty Negating Skills (PPNSs) will prevent reduction to a unit's specified stats in combat (including from Panic'd bonuses). They do not negate the stat bonuses gained by foes using Penalty Exploiting Skills (PESs).
  • Total Penalty Negating Skills (TPNSs) will prevent reduction to all of a unit's stats in combat (including from Panic'd bonuses). They negate the stat bonuses gained by foes using PESs.
  • PPNSs are safe from Penalty Checking Skills (PCSs) if the only penalties they are suffering from are stat penalties they negate. All other penalties or negative status effects will trigger the PCSs.
  • TPNSs are safe from PCSs if they are hit by any stat penalty, but not from negative status effects (including Panic).

I'm not attached to these names, of course, feel free to come up with something better and even neaten up the bullet points.

23 hours ago, LordFrigid said:

I'm not sure why you wouldn't just leave it at "in-combat component" and "out-of-combat component", instead of bring in "stat reduction". Overall, I think even trying to describe a status effect as having two distinct and separate components is taking it a little far. We'll never be able to prove how exactly they've implemented things without actually looking at the code.

I'll grant that it's a convenient way to justify the interaction. But so is: "A status effect is an object that has an effect property. Skills that neutralize status effects can neutralize the effect property (such that the status effect exists, but its effect does not affect the unit), or neutralize the status effect itself (such that the status effect is treated as nonexistent). Skills that check status effects can check whether the status effect exists, or whether its effect affects the unit". It's a neat way of thinking about it, but I can't prove that's how they've done it.

I personally like the way that Johann's description discusses the interaction without trying to get into the specifics of what a penalty is in the code. I agree with the stance that trying to create new terminology is over-complicating it.

Okay, I think I will go with that terminology since it is simple and easy to understand. I cannot think of an easier explanation, but if I do, I will simply further as necessary.

23 hours ago, LordFrigid said:

I'm not sure why you wouldn't just leave it at "in-combat component" and "out-of-combat component", instead of bring in "stat reduction". Overall, I think even trying to describe a status effect as having two distinct and separate components is taking it a little far. We'll never be able to prove how exactly they've implemented things without actually looking at the code.

I'll grant that it's a convenient way to justify the interaction. But so is: "A status effect is an object that has an effect property. Skills that neutralize status effects can neutralize the effect property (such that the status effect exists, but its effect does not affect the unit), or neutralize the status effect itself (such that the status effect is treated as nonexistent). Skills that check status effects can check whether the status effect exists, or whether its effect affects the unit". It's a neat way of thinking about it, but I can't prove that's how they've done it.

I personally like the way that Johann's description discusses the interaction without trying to get into the specifics of what a penalty is in the code. I agree with the stance that trying to create new terminology is over-complicating it.

Neat, that is good to know. I assume Gjöll will work like Chaos Manifest in terms of negative status effects, so I can test Gjöll against Cancel Affinity-Trilema and Creator Sword-Guard.

Not sure about the difference between Gjöll and Chaos Manifest in regards to stat debuffs though since that is really strange.

23 hours ago, LordFrigid said:

Really. I already wasn't a fan of how they implemented some things (e.g. Blessings, Distant Guard), but...wow. They even have an entire suite of input fields for specifying penalties and status effects.

I like all the input fields as it lets us simulate a variety of situations. Not a fan of having to manually enable certain effects though since the player might not know when an effect will be active or not.

23 hours ago, LordFrigid said:

On a separate note, I would personally recommend restructuring the OP as (1) describe how the interactions work, (2) list which skills check and neutralize what, (3) combat examples. I think that would flow a little better.

Cool. I will overhaul it according to that.

Edited by XRay

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@XRay You can add the new refine of Eirika's Gleipnir to the same category as Idunn for completely masking stat penalties.

Spoiler

unknown.png

No debuffs vs Chilling Seal (-6 Atk/Spd) active on Eirika. Gunnthra gains no attack boost from the debuffs.

 

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1 hour ago, Azuni said:

@XRay You can add the new refine of Eirika's Gleipnir to the same category as Idunn for completely masking stat penalties.

  Hide contents

unknown.png

No debuffs vs Chilling Seal (-6 Atk/Spd) active on Eirika. Gunnthra gains no attack boost from the debuffs.

 

Okay, cool!

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Edit: I'm not really sure how to get the rest of my post separated from the update notes' text...I'm just going to leave it be.

From today's update:

Quote

We have addressed an issue that prevented certain skills that have the "neutralizes unit's penalties" effect from interacting correctly with skills that have the "grants bonus to unit's Atk = total penalties on foe during combat" effect (such as Blizzard).

The correct interaction is for skills that have the "grants bonus to unit's Atk = total penalties on foe during combat" effect to not grant this bonus from penalties neutralized by skills that have the "neutralizes unit's penalties" effect.

The following skills with the "neutralizes unit's penalties" effect are affected:

  • Carrot Cudgel, Carrot Cudgel+
  • Gilt Fork, Gilt Fork+
  • Eagle's Egg
  • Atk/Res Bond 4
  • Atk/Spd Bond 4

The following skills with the "grants bonus to unit's Atk = total penalties on foe during combat" effect are affected:

  • Blizzard
  • Broadleaf Fan, Broadleaf Fan+
  • Refined Spy's Dagger
  • Refined Blue-Crow Tome

In addition to what they stated, I also re-ran this test from before:

On 4/1/2020 at 9:06 PM, LordFrigid said:

Huh. That’s...interesting, is the word I’m going with here.

I ran a quick test myself in Paralogue 37-3, using Lilina's Forblaze to apply a Res penalty to Micaiah. Hrid did not get an automatic follow-up from Gjoll, as you described...but Yune, whose Chaos Manifest has a condition worded the exact same way, did get one.

I can confirm that Hríd still does not receive a follow-up, and that Yune no longer receives a follow-up.

Further testing shows that using both Gunnthrá and Bride Micaiah to apply -6/-6/-7/-7 to Brave Micaiah on the same map, Gunnthrá deals extra damage equal to the sum of the Spd and Def penalties without Dominance, and 2x the sum of the Spd and Def penalties with Dominance.

I suspect that other skills that check for the existence of enemy penalties will behave the same way. So, from what I can tell (more thorough testing may be required), all interactions between skills that "neutralize penalties" and skills that check enemy penalties are the same across the board, meaning that skills that check enemy penalties (properly) require the penalty to not be neutralized.

...Thank goodness.

Edited by LordFrigid

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