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Why I don't consider the Crimson Flower ending to be the best ending for Fodland

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4 minutes ago, Nihilem said:

To be fair considering what we know from Cyril and Claude about Almyra that statement wouldnt be too far fetched ....

Which is a reason for Dimitri to oppose Almyra. 

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boooo this man

 

jk jk but im sorry I can't agree this ending was the best and felt canon the only flaw that you don't get to destroy edlegards uncle and his evil organization like you do in the other paths 😭 it just shows up in the epilogue which is lame

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2 hours ago, Nihilem said:

Are you assuming that - if the attack didnt happen - she would just keep Byleth as a professor with no influence? I dont think so - even if he doesnt get the position as archbishop he will get something with a lot of influence. Something like Cardinal or personal adviser level. They have given him the most powerful weapon in fodlan on the hunch that he might become the goddess. So if he would ally with Dimitri (or with any other of the leaders) to help improving the situation in the corresponding countries I can hardly imagine that she would stop him. After all Rhea never actively defended the nobles which misused their powers .... she just did nothing to stop it.

Also unfortunately we dont really now what will happen with Byleth after the end of the game. Silver Snow only mentions that his work was "miraculos". So does he actually become the goddess? Then it would be only a question of time until he takes over the church.

Exactly so. Rhea would have continued to try and come up with ways to revive Sothis. She has been obsessed with this for over a thousand years. Also, cardinal or advisor, it doesn't matter, because Rhea is the one that gets the final say. Regardless of how Byleth is, Rhea is unwilling to tolerate anyone that defies her will. The moment Byleth tries to protect Edelgard, Rhea loses it and calls him a failure, wanting nothing more than to kill him. She also gets very angry when Byleth refuses to hand over the Lance of Ruin.

Rhea does not see Byleth as a person. He's just a jar, a container to hold Sothis's soul. It's only when she had five years to contemplate her mistakes that she finally accepted that her mother was gone. Without chaos, Rhea would have STILL believed that she can bring back her mother, and likely would have tried again. 

Had the attack not happened, Rhea would have simply kept Byleth close to her at all times. Simple as that. Whatever power Byleth gets, it isn't something that would match Rhea's. Rhea gets the final say. And Rhea is unwilling to accept any kinds of changes if it may very well undermine the power and authority of the Church. That's why she barred the printing press, the telescope, and the autopsies, because those technological advances would very well undermine the power the Church holds. 

Rhea defended House Gautier, who disowned Miklan that resulted in the Relic being stolen, by wanting to keep the incident of the Black Beast a secret, stating that they cannot have the nobles lost the trust of the commoners. And Rhea is obviously well aware that disowning kids in Faerghus for not bearing a Crest is common practice, as stated by Seteth. 

If there's any form of trying to make changes that would undermine or endanger the authority of the Church, Rhea would stop it.

It's precisely because of that that Rhea WOULD have prevented Edelgard from making her changes. Edelgard wants to abolish nobility and remove the belief of divine right to rule. If Adrestia, the very nation founded by Seiros and Wilhelm, where there's the entire sacre where the archbishop must bear witness to the new Emperor, to do away with all that, it's something that would completely undermine the Church, the archbishop, and everything with them, and Rhea would have intervened politically with Edelgard had that been the case.

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52 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Exactly so. Rhea would have continued to try and come up with ways to revive Sothis. She has been obsessed with this for over a thousand years. Also, cardinal or advisor, it doesn't matter, because Rhea is the one that gets the final say. Regardless of how Byleth is, Rhea is unwilling to tolerate anyone that defies her will. The moment Byleth tries to protect Edelgard, Rhea loses it and calls him a failure, wanting nothing more than to kill him. She also gets very angry when Byleth refuses to hand over the Lance of Ruin.

Rhea does not see Byleth as a person. He's just a jar, a container to hold Sothis's soul. It's only when she had five years to contemplate her mistakes that she finally accepted that her mother was gone. Without chaos, Rhea would have STILL believed that she can bring back her mother, and likely would have tried again. 

Had the attack not happened, Rhea would have simply kept Byleth close to her at all times. Simple as that. Whatever power Byleth gets, it isn't something that would match Rhea's. Rhea gets the final say. And Rhea is unwilling to accept any kinds of changes if it may very well undermine the power and authority of the Church. That's why she barred the printing press, the telescope, and the autopsies, because those technological advances would very well undermine the power the Church holds. 

Rhea defended House Gautier, who disowned Miklan that resulted in the Relic being stolen, by wanting to keep the incident of the Black Beast a secret, stating that they cannot have the nobles lost the trust of the commoners. And Rhea is obviously well aware that disowning kids in Faerghus for not bearing a Crest is common practice, as stated by Seteth. 

If there's any form of trying to make changes that would undermine or endanger the authority of the Church, Rhea would stop it.

It's precisely because of that that Rhea WOULD have prevented Edelgard from making her changes. Edelgard wants to abolish nobility and remove the belief of divine right to rule. If Adrestia, the very nation founded by Seiros and Wilhelm, where there's the entire sacre where the archbishop must bear witness to the new Emperor, to do away with all that, it's something that would completely undermine the Church, the archbishop, and everything with them, and Rhea would have intervened politically with Edelgard had that been the case.

"Why exactly did Edelgard feel she had to fight the Church itself to achieve her goals" was a question that was nagging the back of my mind. You just gave a better answer to that question than I ever could. Thank you. 

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7 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

"Why exactly did Edelgard feel she had to fight the Church itself to achieve her goals" was a question that was nagging the back of my mind. You just gave a better answer to that question than I ever could. Thank you. 

Yeah. So to any hypothetical scenario where Edelgard manages to do away with the Agarthans and just never tried to start a war? Well, Rhea would intervene in political affairs, using the Church's influence and authority to protect the nobles and Crests overall. Thing about political interferences is that they tend to take a LOT of time to sort over. And Rhea? She's got literally ALL the time. Edelgard doesn't. 

So, in the end, it is absolutely impossible for society to change and progress with Rhea running the Church.

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1 hour ago, omegaxis1 said:

Exactly so. Rhea would have continued to try and come up with ways to revive Sothis. She has been obsessed with this for over a thousand years. Also, cardinal or advisor, it doesn't matter, because Rhea is the one that gets the final say. Regardless of how Byleth is, Rhea is unwilling to tolerate anyone that defies her will. The moment Byleth tries to protect Edelgard, Rhea loses it and calls him a failure, wanting nothing more than to kill him. She also gets very angry when Byleth refuses to hand over the Lance of Ruin.

Rhea does not see Byleth as a person. He's just a jar, a container to hold Sothis's soul. It's only when she had five years to contemplate her mistakes that she finally accepted that her mother was gone. Without chaos, Rhea would have STILL believed that she can bring back her mother, and likely would have tried again. 

Had the attack not happened, Rhea would have simply kept Byleth close to her at all times. Simple as that. Whatever power Byleth gets, it isn't something that would match Rhea's. Rhea gets the final say. And Rhea is unwilling to accept any kinds of changes if it may very well undermine the power and authority of the Church. That's why she barred the printing press, the telescope, and the autopsies, because those technological advances would very well undermine the power the Church holds. 

Rhea defended House Gautier, who disowned Miklan that resulted in the Relic being stolen, by wanting to keep the incident of the Black Beast a secret, stating that they cannot have the nobles lost the trust of the commoners. And Rhea is obviously well aware that disowning kids in Faerghus for not bearing a Crest is common practice, as stated by Seteth. 

If there's any form of trying to make changes that would undermine or endanger the authority of the Church, Rhea would stop it.

It's precisely because of that that Rhea WOULD have prevented Edelgard from making her changes. Edelgard wants to abolish nobility and remove the belief of divine right to rule. If Adrestia, the very nation founded by Seiros and Wilhelm, where there's the entire sacre where the archbishop must bear witness to the new Emperor, to do away with all that, it's something that would completely undermine the Church, the archbishop, and everything with them, and Rhea would have intervened politically with Edelgard had that been the case.

I actually came to think about one thing lately. I remember what Rhea said after the holy tomb incident.

"To flee is futile wicked girl, the church of Seiros will raise their entire army against you until you be captured and punished"

Remember, she says this before Edelgard has even declared war, she knows that Edelgard is currently the Emperor of the Adrestian empire. Seems to me that if Edelgard didn't beat her to the punch, Rhea would have declared war on the Empire. That is what raising your entire army against the Emperor constitutes. It is why it is so hard to avoid this war, even if one person can somehow be convinced not to declare war, there are plenty of other people who will. Even if both Edelgard and Rhea somehow could be convinced not to go down that path. I am still a certain Arundel would have still used his influence to declare war anyway. 

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8 minutes ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

I actually came to think about one thing lately. I remember what Rhea said after the holy tomb incident.

"To flee is futile wicked girl, the church of Seiros will raise their entire army against you until you be captured and punished"

Remember, she says this before Edelgard has even declared war, she knows that Edelgard is currently the Emperor of the Adrestian empire. Seems to me that if Edelgard didn't beat her to the punch, Rhea would have declared war on the Empire. That is what raising your entire army against the Emperor constitutes. It is why it is so hard to avoid this war, even if one person can somehow be convinced not to declare war, there are plenty of other people who will. Even if both Edelgard and Rhea somehow could be convinced not to go down that path. I am still a certain Arundel would have still used his influence to declare war anyway. 

Very true, and it makes me wonder, in chapter 12 of the Verdant Wind route, if you have Claude fight Edelgard, he says that her declaring war so soon almost ruins his own plans... How did he plan to take over Fodlan and open it up, if not through warfare? I get that he's a schemer and that he plans to bring things about more gradually, but at some point, there was going to be conflict. 

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16 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

Very true, and it makes me wonder, in chapter 12 of the Verdant Wind route, if you have Claude fight Edelgard, he says that her declaring war so soon almost ruins his own plans... How did he plan to take over Fodlan and open it up, if not through warfare? I get that he's a schemer and that he plans to bring things about more gradually, but at some point, there was going to be conflict. 

I guess he could just assassinate anyone who stands in this way, it still involves death but less so than a war. But that is if Claude is willing to do even that. Otherwise I have no idea how his ambitions are even possible, Claude basically needs someone to declare war so he can exploit the situation for his own ambition. It kind of goes back to what I said earlier about how everyone is essentially dependent on the war happening to change the continent in their preferred way. Claude is probably the primary example of someone that while he didn't start the war, he certainly exploited the situation. 

Granted, I guess it is also possible that Claude eventually did intend to create a conflict, but at a later date and he just wasn't where he needed to be in his schemes. Claude is actually the one other house leader, I think that in guard actually had a decent chance of convincing to join her, they have very similar ideologies and both dislike the influence of the church. It is just a question of Claude agreeing with Edelgard's methods or not. But once again, I am not certain how either achieve their goals without a conflict

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So, I'm going to put in my two cents on this because i feel a few things are over looked. 

Edelgard IS Rhea. Now what i mean is that El does the CF route she is effectively doing what Rhea did WAY BACK WHEN to Nemesis. So what i infer happened is that over time humans as their populations boomed in comparison to the dragon folk (forgive me for not using the in game species names but they arent super important) and had to spread out. As they spread out reverence/friendship for this undying species slowly became fear that this god like race might get tired of them since they so vastly out number them. This led to humans learning things in secret to siphon the dragons powers and use it agaisnt them. They also wanted to make it clear they meant business, so they targeted the broodmother first, Sothis.

This series of events led by Nemesis is what led Rhea (at the time as Seiros) to rally a group of people to fight agaisnt a potentially unfounded (again VERY little is actually said about this time its very possible some of the dragonkin were oppressing the humans) rebellion, they won Rhea shacked up with a noble person (this is canon in one the books in the abyss and vitally important to a point i will bring up later) cethleann took her nap etc. Over time to keep some control over who had these crazy toys that Nemesis' team had made she rewrote history, because of the weapons origins she couldnt either bring herself to destroy them or just simply couldnt find a way to destroy them, she knew she needed to stop them from being abused, thus the 10 elites and the crest system was implemented. 

Now this is when things start going wrong and why being immortal causes problems because losing her mother creating a massive conspiracy, that also spawned a church that features YOU as the patron saint to keep people from causing further problems did something to rhea, she became absolutely obsessed with resurrecting her mother, even resorting to living sacrifices, and other dark magics such as creating homunculi. She also becomes uninterested in the petty affairs of men so long as her crest system remains in place they play by her rules but still prohibits free thinking (see loog rebellion). She also keeps fodlan on lockdown to prevent her false history from getting out. 

Now lets to get to El. El is a bastard child to the emperor, and should have had no real place other than to be married off to someone lile ferdie or hubie, however her uncle had connections to people who survived rheas war and had slowly been sciencing is way to turn a living being into a monster that could outclass rhea. This results in children being kidnapped in all three regions and Els whole family being sent to the operating tables for 1 very important reason. They had blood relations to rhea because they have her crest. Her romance with that human who stood by her is what resulted in El, which in a weird twist makes Rhea the Marth to Els Lucina. During this time Els uncle staged a coup using his position within the TWSITD to manipulate/influence the other major nobles of the empire. 

Sorry this is very wall of text but Ive noticed a lot of this info is ignored with all the Edelgard is x or y or Dimitri was right topics. El is a bomb whos fuse was lit by her uncle when she succesfully survived inhabiting 2 crests by the start of the game itself she has ~ 10 years to live and she knows this. She is also aware that her uncle can very easily remove her from power and take over embarr himself and use it to further twsitd plans and use them as cannon fodder. She is forced to play along with him or risk her people that she actually cares about, which drastically reduced her options. She didnt start this war it was started over a millennia ago by her xxxgrandma and a guy who feared her power, she just knew she needed to end it and fast and topple a system that had grown corrupted because rhea didnt stop the nobles from abusing power they really didnt control. What makes the CF so interesting is that Rhea in an attempt that at the time was a good idea but because she went crazy She actually PROVED nemesis correct, that her undying led to mass oppression albeit at their own power lusting hands.

Tl;dr Rhea lived too long to be the hero and died being the very thing she sought to prove wrong. She was put down by her own decendant attempting to fix the issue and learning that no one should hold power just because of arbitrarily gained genes boogied out of the crown asap. Was Els choice "the best" no but she had limited time and resources. She wanted to let rhea live (offers twice). Was Rhea evil? No she had good intentipns at first but became disillusioned and went coo-coo. Had rhea been willing to admit to alterong history and divulged the truth about crests and the "divine" weapons she could have joined El at that point and the 2 of them could have squished the twsitd and everyone loved happily ever after except bernies dad because we hung him at the gates of embarr for reasons

 

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20 minutes ago, Rearti said:

So, I'm going to put in my two cents on this because i feel a few things are over looked. 

Edelgard IS Rhea. Now what i mean is that El does the CF route she is effectively doing what Rhea did WAY BACK WHEN to Nemesis. So what i infer happened is that over time humans as their populations boomed in comparison to the dragon folk (forgive me for not using the in game species names but they arent super important) and had to spread out. As they spread out reverence/friendship for this undying species slowly became fear that this god like race might get tired of them since they so vastly out number them. This led to humans learning things in secret to siphon the dragons powers and use it agaisnt them. They also wanted to make it clear they meant business, so they targeted the broodmother first, Sothis.

This series of events led by Nemesis is what led Rhea (at the time as Seiros) to rally a group of people to fight agaisnt a potentially unfounded (again VERY little is actually said about this time its very possible some of the dragonkin were oppressing the humans) rebellion, they won Rhea shacked up with a noble person (this is canon in one the books in the abyss and vitally important to a point i will bring up later) cethleann took her nap etc. Over time to keep some control over who had these crazy toys that Nemesis' team had made she rewrote history, because of the weapons origins she couldnt either bring herself to destroy them or just simply couldnt find a way to destroy them, she knew she needed to stop them from being abused, thus the 10 elites and the crest system was implemented. 

Now this is when things start going wrong and why being immortal causes problems because losing her mother creating a massive conspiracy, that also spawned a church that features YOU as the patron saint to keep people from causing further problems did something to rhea, she became absolutely obsessed with resurrecting her mother, even resorting to living sacrifices, and other dark magics such as creating homunculi. She also becomes uninterested in the petty affairs of men so long as her crest system remains in place they play by her rules but still prohibits free thinking (see loog rebellion). She also keeps fodlan on lockdown to prevent her false history from getting out. 

Now lets to get to El. El is a bastard child to the emperor, and should have had no real place other than to be married off to someone lile ferdie or hubie, however her uncle had connections to people who survived rheas war and had slowly been sciencing is way to turn a living being into a monster that could outclass rhea. This results in children being kidnapped in all three regions and Els whole family being sent to the operating tables for 1 very important reason. They had blood relations to rhea because they have her crest. Her romance with that human who stood by her is what resulted in El, which in a weird twist makes Rhea the Marth to Els Lucina. During this time Els uncle staged a coup using his position within the TWSITD to manipulate/influence the other major nobles of the empire. 

Sorry this is very wall of text but Ive noticed a lot of this info is ignored with all the Edelgard is x or y or Dimitri was right topics. El is a bomb whos fuse was lit by her uncle when she succesfully survived inhabiting 2 crests by the start of the game itself she has ~ 10 years to live and she knows this. She is also aware that her uncle can very easily remove her from power and take over embarr himself and use it to further twsitd plans and use them as cannon fodder. She is forced to play along with him or risk her people that she actually cares about, which drastically reduced her options. She didnt start this war it was started over a millennia ago by her xxxgrandma and a guy who feared her power, she just knew she needed to end it and fast and topple a system that had grown corrupted because rhea didnt stop the nobles from abusing power they really didnt control. What makes the CF so interesting is that Rhea in an attempt that at the time was a good idea but because she went crazy She actually PROVED nemesis correct, that her undying led to mass oppression albeit at their own power lusting hands.

Tl;dr Rhea lived too long to be the hero and died being the very thing she sought to prove wrong. She was put down by her own decendant attempting to fix the issue and learning that no one should hold power just because of arbitrarily gained genes boogied out of the crown asap. Was Els choice "the best" no but she had limited time and resources. She wanted to let rhea live (offers twice). Was Rhea evil? No she had good intentipns at first but became disillusioned and went coo-coo. Had rhea been willing to admit to alterong history and divulged the truth about crests and the "divine" weapons she could have joined El at that point and the 2 of them could have squished the twsitd and everyone loved happily ever after except bernies dad because we hung him at the gates of embarr for reasons

 

Very interesting observations. I did make a point a while ago that Edelgard might actually be a direct descendant of Rhea, ironically enough, if Seiros actually hooked up with Emperor Wilhelm like the book in the abyss library suggests. She does have the crest and it seems like every noble family in the Black Eagle house and crests based on the Saints rather than the 10 elites. Meaning they are more connected to Dragonkind than any other house. 

Edelgard was essentially intended to be a weapon used by the Agarthans for this very purpose, but she resented being just a tool and developed her own reasons for doing things, intending to destroy both the church and the Agarthans.

I actually think that that in the day Seiros was correct in starting her war, as I think Edelgard did the right thing in the recent times. Rhea was originally the hero, but a lot have changed in 1000 years. It is fortunate that Edelgard isn't immortal and will probably die before she falls down the same pitfall as Rhea. I think Edelgard understands that an eternal ruler isn't a good thing, which is why she willingly gives up power. I kind of get the impression with Edelgard that not only isn't she afraid of death, she is actually proud of her humanity and mortality. Even if she had the choice to become immortal. I don't think she would. As she realises it is better that she passes the torch eventually.

Rhea, in contrast, doesn't seem to be able to accept the death of her mother, or that she has to move on from how things were in the past and look towards the future. At least she doesn't in crimson flower.

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10 hours ago, eclipse said:

Shot?  Probably not.  He'd most likely be laughed out of the room.  Or a whole lot of bureaucratic red tape would conveniently get in the way, thus making fully open borders impossible.

IMO the best ending in 3H is whichever one closed out the story in the most satisfactory way FOR THE VIEWER.

I was maybe being a bit extreme there. I also agree with your points.

While I'm personally a big fan of games that give multiple story routes, I'm never a fan of the amount of "This ending is OBVIOUSLY better/worse" discussions that people try to start with games that have these kind of things so yes 3H was obviously made as a game where the player can choose their best ending.

Edited by Strullemia

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4 minutes ago, Strullemia said:

I was maybe being a bit extreme there. I also agree with your points.

While I'm personally a big fan of games that give multiple story routes, I'm never a fan of the amount of "This ending is OBVIOUSLY better/worse" discussions that people try to start so yes 3H was obviously made as a game where the player can choose their best ending.

Well, there obviously isn't an objective answer, it all comes down to what a person think is a better or worse result. Though in my case, Gilbert really made me think about what I do value in a society and in a leader. I have actually found that I actually like when a leader is decisive and is able to make tough decisions. Most of the things that people usually view as detractors for Crimson Flower isn't a deal breaker for me. I even think an absolute monarch is fine as long as said monarch is a good person incapable in the role. There has been multiple kings and queens who has been beloved throughout history, it only really becomes a problem when you have a bad ruler. 

I honestly think that in Crimson Flower, Edelgard is likely to be remembered as such a good ruler that it will likely drown out the negative impact of the war in the eyes of history. So while how she unified the continent might be viewed as a bit questionable by future generations, she would still be regarded as benevolent overall. 

I don't really have a problem with the other endings either, their primary detriment. In my case is that I really prefer Edelgard to be alive as I really like her. I think Edelgard deserves a happy ending, so does Dimitri and everyone else, but as all of these people want to get that in the same timeline. It is a matter of priorities. 

Azure Moon was actually very close to having a happy ending for all three house leaders, the primary problem is that Edelgard always insists on dying, even when people go out of their way to spare her. I sometimes wonder if the tragic way the route ended is technically better from a storytelling perspective than ending things with the renunciation between Edelgard and Dimitri. I think that could also be satisfying for different reasons

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11 hours ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

I actually came to think about one thing lately. I remember what Rhea said after the holy tomb incident.

"To flee is futile wicked girl, the church of Seiros will raise their entire army against you until you be captured and punished"

Remember, she says this before Edelgard has even declared war, she knows that Edelgard is currently the Emperor of the Adrestian empire. Seems to me that if Edelgard didn't beat her to the punch, Rhea would have declared war on the Empire. That is what raising your entire army against the Emperor constitutes. It is why it is so hard to avoid this war, even if one person can somehow be convinced not to declare war, there are plenty of other people who will. Even if both Edelgard and Rhea somehow could be convinced not to go down that path. I am still a certain Arundel would have still used his influence to declare war anyway. 

didn't she say that because Edelgard literally brought the imperial army inside a holy place where basically only Rhea and few other can enter, with no authorization whatsoever, with the intention to steal every crest stone possible?

i mean, imagine an army entering the vatican's treasure room and stealing everything in there

regardless of your intentions, that would not be received very well, and it's something you most likely don't want to do, especially if the church you're opposing has a very strong army and followers everywhere around the continent

Edited by Yexin

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10 hours ago, Rearti said:

So, I'm going to put in my two cents on this because i feel a few things are over looked. 

Edelgard IS Rhea. Now what i mean is that El does the CF route she is effectively doing what Rhea did WAY BACK WHEN to Nemesis. So what i infer happened is that over time humans as their populations boomed in comparison to the dragon folk (forgive me for not using the in game species names but they arent super important) and had to spread out. As they spread out reverence/friendship for this undying species slowly became fear that this god like race might get tired of them since they so vastly out number them. This led to humans learning things in secret to siphon the dragons powers and use it agaisnt them. They also wanted to make it clear they meant business, so they targeted the broodmother first, Sothis.

This series of events led by Nemesis is what led Rhea (at the time as Seiros) to rally a group of people to fight agaisnt a potentially unfounded (again VERY little is actually said about this time its very possible some of the dragonkin were oppressing the humans) rebellion, they won Rhea shacked up with a noble person (this is canon in one the books in the abyss and vitally important to a point i will bring up later) cethleann took her nap etc. Over time to keep some control over who had these crazy toys that Nemesis' team had made she rewrote history, because of the weapons origins she couldnt either bring herself to destroy them or just simply couldnt find a way to destroy them, she knew she needed to stop them from being abused, thus the 10 elites and the crest system was implemented. 

Now this is when things start going wrong and why being immortal causes problems because losing her mother creating a massive conspiracy, that also spawned a church that features YOU as the patron saint to keep people from causing further problems did something to rhea, she became absolutely obsessed with resurrecting her mother, even resorting to living sacrifices, and other dark magics such as creating homunculi. She also becomes uninterested in the petty affairs of men so long as her crest system remains in place they play by her rules but still prohibits free thinking (see loog rebellion). She also keeps fodlan on lockdown to prevent her false history from getting out. 

Now lets to get to El. El is a bastard child to the emperor, and should have had no real place other than to be married off to someone lile ferdie or hubie, however her uncle had connections to people who survived rheas war and had slowly been sciencing is way to turn a living being into a monster that could outclass rhea. This results in children being kidnapped in all three regions and Els whole family being sent to the operating tables for 1 very important reason. They had blood relations to rhea because they have her crest. Her romance with that human who stood by her is what resulted in El, which in a weird twist makes Rhea the Marth to Els Lucina. During this time Els uncle staged a coup using his position within the TWSITD to manipulate/influence the other major nobles of the empire. 

Sorry this is very wall of text but Ive noticed a lot of this info is ignored with all the Edelgard is x or y or Dimitri was right topics. El is a bomb whos fuse was lit by her uncle when she succesfully survived inhabiting 2 crests by the start of the game itself she has ~ 10 years to live and she knows this. She is also aware that her uncle can very easily remove her from power and take over embarr himself and use it to further twsitd plans and use them as cannon fodder. She is forced to play along with him or risk her people that she actually cares about, which drastically reduced her options. She didnt start this war it was started over a millennia ago by her xxxgrandma and a guy who feared her power, she just knew she needed to end it and fast and topple a system that had grown corrupted because rhea didnt stop the nobles from abusing power they really didnt control. What makes the CF so interesting is that Rhea in an attempt that at the time was a good idea but because she went crazy She actually PROVED nemesis correct, that her undying led to mass oppression albeit at their own power lusting hands.

Tl;dr Rhea lived too long to be the hero and died being the very thing she sought to prove wrong. She was put down by her own decendant attempting to fix the issue and learning that no one should hold power just because of arbitrarily gained genes boogied out of the crown asap. Was Els choice "the best" no but she had limited time and resources. She wanted to let rhea live (offers twice). Was Rhea evil? No she had good intentipns at first but became disillusioned and went coo-coo. Had rhea been willing to admit to alterong history and divulged the truth about crests and the "divine" weapons she could have joined El at that point and the 2 of them could have squished the twsitd and everyone loved happily ever after except bernies dad because we hung him at the gates of embarr for reasons

 

Interesting, except those who carry the Crests of the saints aren't descended from them; they're descended from people that got a blood transfusion of the saints' blood. This includes Edelgard's ancestor, who received a Crest directly from Rhea. 

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1 hour ago, vanguard333 said:

Interesting, except those who carry the Crests of the saints aren't descended from them; they're descended from people that got a blood transfusion of the saints' blood. This includes Edelgard's ancestor, who received a Crest directly from Rhea. 

In case of Seiros, there is that novel in the Shadow Library that describes her and Wilhelm as a pair, so it is possible that Rhea could be Edelgards ancestor, but that could also just be in universe fan fiction.

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9 minutes ago, tirex367 said:

In case of Seiros, there is that novel in the Shadow Library that describes her and Wilhelm as a pair, so it is possible that Rhea could be Edelgards ancestor, but that could also just be in universe fan fiction.

I suppose it's possible, but that just reminds me of something Dorothea says in Crimson Flower, about how operas will have it that Byleth and Edelgard are an item regardless of historical accuracy. 

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1 hour ago, vanguard333 said:

I suppose it's possible, but that just reminds me of something Dorothea says in Crimson Flower, about how operas will have it that Byleth and Edelgard are an item regardless of historical accuracy. 

Good point. At least it would be if Edelgard and Byleth wasn't totally historically accurate in my playthrough. And they are a lovely couple indeed, so the opera is accurate (though embarresing for Edelgard). 

So, well, dramatization can have some grain of truth

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1 hour ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

Good point. At least it would be if Edelgard and Byleth wasn't totally historically accurate in my playthrough. And they are a lovely couple indeed, so the opera is accurate (though embarresing for Edelgard). 

So, well, dramatization can have some grain of truth

It was accurate in my first playthrough as well; it was the "regardless" part that I was getting at. 

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On 4/5/2020 at 4:34 AM, Yexin said:

didn't she say that because Edelgard literally brought the imperial army inside a holy place where basically only Rhea and few other can enter, with no authorization whatsoever, with the intention to steal every crest stone possible?

i mean, imagine an army entering the vatican's treasure room and stealing everything in there

regardless of your intentions, that would not be received very well, and it's something you most likely don't want to do, especially if the church you're opposing has a very strong army and followers everywhere around the continent

Yeah by bringing an army into a nuetral city state revealing herself to be a terrorist.  Who was directly working with the armed traitors of the western church and lord Lonato who are rebels who will attack even there crown prince. Edelgard started the war right there. There is also the fact in Raphaels paralogue a slither summoner is helping destabilize the Alliance too. And that’s the problem with Three Houses world building we never see the normal Fodlan only the one the Slithers, Jeritza and Edelgard destabilized.  Even Lord Lonato was a traitor who is mad his son was a fanatic who wanted to kill the leader of a city state. But the world doesn’t actually let you assassinate world leaders. Even he was just Thales pawn. 

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1 minute ago, Julian Solo said:

Yeah by bringing an army into a nuetral city state revealing herself to be a terrorist.  Who was directly working with the armed traitors of the western church and lord Lonato who are rebels who will attack even there crown prince. Edelgard started the war right there. There is also the fact in Raphaels paralogue a slither summoner is helping destabilize the Alliance too. And that’s the problem with Three Houses world building we never see the normal Fodlan only the one the Slithers, Jeritza and Edelgard destabilized.  Even Lord Lonato was a traitor who is mad his son was a fanatic who wanted to kill the leader of a city state. But the world doesn’t actually let you assassinate world leaders. Even he was just Thales pawn. 

False. Raph's paralogue had no slither agents. Masked mages aren't slithers. Slither agents are always referred to as mysterious mages, Agarthans, or those who slither in the dark. No unit in Raph's paralogue was anything of the such. 

Second, Rhea committed a hefty crime in Faerghus by fabricating evidence and performing a false investigation by framing people and executing them as the ones that killed Lambert. This is something very serious. Whether Christophe would be executed for wanting to assassinate Rhea is irrelevant, when the Church falsified an investigation to the assassination of a nation's king. 

Lonato raising a rebellion against the Church is entirely justified and Rhea should have answered to her crimes. But she doesn't. 

Not to mention that making a deal with Loog to give him independence in exchange for something is a violation of what it means to a neutral 3rd party. 

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6 minutes ago, Julian Solo said:

Yeah by bringing an army into a nuetral city state revealing herself to be a terrorist.  Who was directly working with the armed traitors of the western church and lord Lonato who are rebels who will attack even there crown prince. Edelgard started the war right there. There is also the fact in Raphaels paralogue a slither summoner is helping destabilize the Alliance too. And that’s the problem with Three Houses world building we never see the normal Fodlan only the one the Slithers, Jeritza and Edelgard destabilized.  Even Lord Lonato was a traitor who is mad his son was a fanatic who wanted to kill the leader of a city state. But the world doesn’t actually let you assassinate world leaders. Even he was just Thales pawn. 

The Agarthans has been trying to destabilise Fodlan for far longer than Edelgard has been involved, the conflict was technically started ages ago. Even supporting Loog in forming the holy kingdom of Faerghus was part of their long-term plan to destabilise Fodlan, its destabilised state has lasted for quite a long time.

It isn't technically Edelgard's doing, she is just another playing piece in a far greater game. Even if it may appear to be Edelgard's doing, it really isn't, her role in all of this is essentially to act as the scapegoat for Thales and take the blame for his actions. They use Edelgard so that they themselves can remain in the shadows

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7 minutes ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

The Agarthans has been trying to destabilise Fodlan for far longer than Edelgard has been involved, the conflict was technically started ages ago. Even supporting Loog in forming the holy kingdom of Faerghus was part of their long-term plan to destabilise Fodlan, its destabilised state has lasted for quite a long time.

It isn't technically Edelgard's doing, she is just another playing piece in a far greater game. Even if it may appear to be Edelgard's doing, it really isn't, her role in all of this is essentially to act as the scapegoat for Thales and take the blame for his actions. They use Edelgard so that they themselves can remain in the shadows

Even if you try to lay blame on the Agarthans, the Church played right into their hands. 

Loog's Rebellion? It was still Rhea and the Church that meddled into the political affairs and backed Loog's claim for independence. 

Crescent Moon War? Rhea and the Church did nothing for a war that spanned for two decades, despite how they could have meddled and tried to settle things much earlier. 

The Insurrection of the Seven? Could have intervened and prevented Ionius from being overthrown, thus preventing the Agarthan from gaining control of the Empire. 

Tragedy of Duscur? The Church could have done an actual proper investigation and tried to find the true criminals, rather than making a false investigation and using their political enemies as scapegoats. This, particularly, is precisely WHY the Western Church and Lonato rebelled. The Western Church actually believed that the Central Church was behind the Tragedy of Duscur. Lonato learned that his son was falsely executed.

Blame it on the Agarthans all you want, but Rhea still is very much responsible for her own actions and/or inactions. 

Because yes, inaction is VERY much an evil that people love to overlook or insist is innocent. 

Edited by omegaxis1

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24 minutes ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

The Agarthans has been trying to destabilise Fodlan for far longer than Edelgard has been involved, the conflict was technically started ages ago. Even supporting Loog in forming the holy kingdom of Faerghus was part of their long-term plan to destabilise Fodlan, its destabilised state has lasted for quite a long time.

It isn't technically Edelgard's doing, she is just another playing piece in a far greater game. Even if it may appear to be Edelgard's doing, it really isn't, her role in all of this is essentially to act as the scapegoat for Thales and take the blame for his actions. They use Edelgard so that they themselves can remain in the shadows

Edelgard is the one they need to kill Rhea because Nemesis for some reason isn’t available  yet. Claude even calls it an equal partnership where they both use each other. Jeritza is the the character we first see with the western church. It couldn’t have gotten as bad as it did without Edelgards help. 

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8 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Even if you try to lay blame on the Agarthans, the Church played right into their hands. 

Loog's Rebellion? It was still Rhea and the Church that meddled into the political affairs and backed Loog's claim for independence. 

Crescent Moon War? Rhea and the Church did nothing for a war that spanned for two decades, despite how they could have meddled and tried to settle things much earlier. 

The Insurrection of the Seven? Could have intervened and prevented Ionius from being overthrown, thus preventing the Agarthan from gaining control of the Empire. 

Tragedy of Duscur? The Church could have done an actual proper investigation and tried to find the true criminals, rather than making a false investigation and using their political enemies as scapegoats. This, particularly, is precisely WHY the Western Church and Lonato rebelled. The Western Church actually believed that the Central Church was behind the Tragedy of Duscur. Lonato learned that his son was falsely executed.

Blame it on the Agarthans all you want, but Rhea still is very much responsible for her own actions and/or inactions. 

Because yes, inaction is VERY much an evil that people love to overlook or insist is innocent. 

I am not going to defend the church. Rhea isn't definitely neglectful and blind for letting her ancient enemies get so much influence in the Empire right under her nose. That something fishy was going on, should have been obvious to anyone who were paying attention to the political climate. Not to mention that I believe that the very way the church maintain power is evil in and off itself. Stifling the growth of technology and progress all in the name of keeping people reliant on the church, keeping themselves in power. The most egregious example in my opinion is their ban on autopsies that could lead to breakthroughs in medical science, just to keep people reliant on the church for healing. Stifling technology in the medical field like that does cost quite a few lives in the long run, as people would need to seek out church officials trained in white magic for elements that otherwise a regular doctor would be able to cure.

Which is exactly what Edelgard means with that of the war with lead to less casualties in the long run. 

The way that Rhea deals with people who defy her means that, in my opinion she is exactly what Edelgard claims she is, a tyrant. Rhea the church to remain in control and keep the status quo and peace, even if she has to lie deceived and kill to do so. She might be warm and motherly at times, but Rhea is absolutely merciless when it comes to her enemies. Or anyone who works against her goals

What I meant was that people really give Edelgard the entire blame for incidents such as what happened in the holy tomb. But I think that the Agarthans has quite heavy involvement in everything that was done before the time skip. Thales deliberately giving Edelgard tasks that would make her look bad as in the end it is in his best interest to do so. He wants the church and everyone else to be hostile against Edelgard and the Empire as starting this war is part of his plans. Give who actually have use for crest stones . I think it is likely that Thales ordered Edelgard to attack the holy tomb to retrieve the crest stones in order to make more daemonic beasts. Which is why I don't give in are to be full blame for that action, she isn't exactly in a position she can defy Thales at this time.

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The entire dlc is you defying Rhea and Aelfric out right betrays her and she does nothing lol. Rhea can’t be this extreme supreme evil tyrant that oppresses the continent and the leader of a far of isolated city state who does nothing. You can’t have both because the game literally just paints her as a lacking leader never an evil mastermind like Edelgard says ever. Also the writers didn’t say she suppressed technology they said slowed. But these is contradicted by the fact Adrestia by itself “destroyed Dagda” and conquered Brigid.   

Edited by Julian Solo

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