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Why I don't consider the Crimson Flower ending to be the best ending for Fodland

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4 minutes ago, Julian Solo said:

Edelgard is the one they need to kill Rhea because Nemesis for some reason isn’t available  yet. Claude even calls it an equal partnership where they both use each other. Jeritza is the the character we first see with the western church. It couldn’t have gotten as bad as it did without Edelgards help. 

Edelgard is a vital playing piece in the plans of the Agarthans, but the power dynamic is definitely in Thales favour in the early stage. This was the man who imprisoned and tortured Edelgard as a child, the original Arundel having been ill, birds caretaker for quite a while as she wasn't able to see her father or mother while in the kingdom of Fhaerghus. 

Edelgard is trying her best to turn that dynamic around however, and in a later point in the war, they are more even when it comes to power. Eventually Edelgard actually grows more powerful than Thales , which is why she is able to destroy him and his forces in the epilogue of crimson flower. So while Edelgard was originally a pawn of the Agarthans, this did change as the war progressed. There is kind of this constant power struggle between Edelgard and Thales, which is why Thales also does make demonstrations of power when he feels that she has stepped out of line. Like with Arianrhod.

2 minutes ago, Julian Solo said:

The entire dlc is you defying Rhea and Aelfric out right betrays her and she does nothing lol. Rhea can’t be this extreme supreme evil tyrant that oppresses the continent and the leader of a far of isolated city state who does nothing. You can’t have both because the game literally just paints her as a lacking leader never an evil mastermind like Edelgard says ever.

That did confuse me at first as if Rhea would have reacted like she did with Aelfric when dealing with Edelgard and the holy tomb, things might have been diffused before it got as bad as it did. Though I understand why her reaction was that hostile considering it probably brought up memories of nemesis robbing the holy tomb. I am not saying Rhea, a supreme evil with no redeeming qualities, that would be a bit silly. But she does have tyrannical tendencies as she can be very controlling and she is quite cruel to those who defy the church. But she does believe that what she's doing this for the greater good and that humanity have to be guided by Dragonkind in order to keep humanity from destroying itself with its violent tendencies and advanced technology. She has seen with her own eyes just how devastating that combination can really be. So that is the reason she will go as far as she does to make sure that the church maintains that influence over Fodlan. From her point of view, it is a good thing.

But what Edelgard claims his also true from a certain point of view, Rhea is kind of tyrannical, but it isn't all of what she is. But Edelgard have really only seen the cruel side of her as that is all she keeps showing to Edelgard. Which is why I think Rhea treating Edelgard like she did Aelfric would make a big difference. Acting like she did in the holy tomb incident only confirmed Edelgard's suspicions in her mind.

I think it is quite silly to argue that either Rhea or Edelgard are all bad, because it is strictly not true. Both of them have redeeming qualities about them and ultimately good intentions for the world. But I do think the church is ultimately mistaken. Things do need to change and they are too stubborn to admit it. Edelgard would be far more justified if Thales wasn't a factor, and as how things are now things kind of did turn into a complete mess. On one hand, she should have never allied with the Agarthans, on the other. The alternative would have been worse. 

If you think things are bad now, just imagine a timeline where multiple cities would have been hit with missiles left and right. The monastery might be protected, but Enbarr isn't.

(Also, Dimitri is probably my second favourite character in this entire game, I might not always agree with his viewpoints, but god damn does he have a good character arc.)

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36 minutes ago, Julian Solo said:

The entire dlc is you defying Rhea and Aelfric out right betrays her and she does nothing lol. Rhea can’t be this extreme supreme evil tyrant that oppresses the continent and the leader of a far of isolated city state who does nothing. You can’t have both because the game literally just paints her as a lacking leader never an evil mastermind like Edelgard says ever. Also the writers didn’t say she suppressed technology they said slowed. But these is contradicted by the fact Adrestia by itself “destroyed Dagda” and conquered Brigid.   

You seem to think that evil is determined by action. 

Actually, inaction is an evil in itself. Ever heard of the sin of sloth?
Einstein's quote:

Quote

The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it.

Many of the problems in Fodlan would have been solved or never have escalated to nearly the same level had Rhea had actually been more proactive and tried to fix society. As a leader of the Church, it was her responsibility. 

If you let a person suffer, and you had the power and ability to actually help, but did nothing, then guess what? That person growing up and taking matters to their own hands are a direct result of you choosing to do nothing. You could have stopped that person from walking down a dark path, but you chose to do nothing. Now, because you chose to do nothing, you and others suffer for letting that person suffer. You're just as much to blame. 

But apparently people like to think that doing nothing equates to being innocent. 

Also, Adrestia never "destroyed" Dagda. Betting you're thinking Shamir's support. It's a mistranslation. Adrestia defeated the Dagdan forces that invaded and Shamir was stranded as a result. 

And for the record, we see actual evidence of Rhea suppressing technology based on the fact that she barred nations from the printing press, use of oil, telescopes, and even autopsies, three of the four were strictly for Church-related reasons. 

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2 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

You seem to think that evil is determined by action. 

Actually, inaction is an evil in itself. Ever heard of the sin of sloth?
Einstein's quote:

Many of the problems in Fodlan would have been solved or never have escalated to nearly the same level had Rhea had actually been more proactive and tried to fix society. As a leader of the Church, it was her responsibility. 

If you let a person suffer, and you had the power and ability to actually help, but did nothing, then guess what? That person growing up and taking matters to their own hands are a direct result of you choosing to do nothing. You could have stopped that person from walking down a dark path, but you chose to do nothing. Now, because you chose to do nothing, you and others suffer for letting that person suffer. You're just as much to blame. 

But apparently people like to think that doing nothing equates to being innocent. 

Also, Adrestia never "destroyed" Dagda. Betting you're thinking Shamir's support. It's a mistranslation. Adrestia defeated the Dagdan forces that invaded and Shamir was stranded as a result. 

And for the record, we see actual evidence of Rhea suppressing technology based on the fact that she barred nations from the printing press, use of oil, telescopes, and even autopsies, three of the four were strictly for Church-related reasons. 

The situation with Edelgard is pretty much a damned if you do and damned if you don't type of situation. Either you commit evil in an effort to make things better or you will allow able to keep being committed through your inaction. Either way, people are going to hold you accountable for your actions or lack of actions. Another reason it is important to not judge. I have kind of had it with humanity's obsession with false consequences for everything. No, Edelgard doesn't deserve any kind of punishment for actions. To even think in that manner is from my perspective evil. She is a good person who is trying to make the best out of a bad situation, to want her to suffer because of it is to embrace vengeance and sadism. It is her embrace of this type of morality that is the primary reason I consider Rhea to be worse than Edelgard. As well as Dimitri, people who perpetuate suffering in the name of getting even. 

I think that 

one of Rhea's primary problems is that she is so obsessed with reviving her mother that she is blind to what is going on around her. She could have prevented this entire situation from escalating to the point this bad if she did something earlier. If things she is doing is essentially just killing all rebels, instead of bowing to the bottom of why people are rebelling in the first place, and dealing with the root cause. In her mind, everything will be better once Sothis is back, but I am not sure if that would actually work. Wouldn't Sothis just be another divine despot? 

Whenever the Empire destroyed Dagda or not is irrelevant to even guide because I want hold her responsible to what her father or grandfather did. It just simply isn't something she had responsible for. Same as she wasn't responsible for making Brigid a vassal just because the Empire did.

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Edelgards own inactions caused the death of several children being tortured and turned into demonic beasts. Caused Flaynn to be tortured by her army for a month and almost caused Manuela her life. Her desire to reunited the continent instead of taking out the slithers after she got control back from Duke Aegir literally causes entire cities to get nuked off the face of planet. Hell her own inaction in CF causes a second war to deal with the slithers where every other route it’s confirmed there just remaints that need to be squashed. Look at Hapis single endings. Also the writers confirmed Rheas war against Nemesis was self defense since he was going to kill her whole species for more bones. The technology holding back hurting humanity is head canon. Nothing in the story says Rhea hurt humanity by slowing technology. It’s not like the last time the Nabateans gave humans technology they nuked the planet or something lol. So if all you have is Rheas inactions some how caused more destruction then Nuke clear bombs yeah that can destroy the planet and leave firey ruins lol. I think am done here. Specially when we know Fodlan is in no way less advance then Almyra or Dagda it been mentioned if it was. There is a reason Boofire called Edelgard the antagonist because she is one. Rhea is only one in CF after she looses herself. She’s never against Byleth out of CF. Also there 100% zero evidence Rhea ever stopped the governments from changing there own laws or she has the power to. Charlemagne was already in charge before the pope named him emperor anyway. The pope in three houses has like no power compared to actual pope in the Middle Ages. 
 

There is literally multiple Mach wars and one war against Almyra. So no there is zero proof holding back technology hurt anyone. Also no other country in Fodlan took part in the last Mack war only Adrestia. They been destroyed if Dagda was more advanced. 

Edited by Julian Solo

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Just now, Julian Solo said:

Edelgards own inactions caused the death of several children being tortured and turned into demonic beasts. Caused Flaynn to be tortured by her army for a month and almost caused Manuela her life. Her desire to reunited the continent instead of taking out the slithers after she got control back from Duke Aegir literally causes entire cities to get nuked off the face of planet. Hell her own inaction in CF causes a second war to deal with the slithers where every other route it’s confirmed there just remaints that need to be squashed. Look at Hapis single endings. Also the writers confirmed Rheas war against Nemesis was self defense since he was going to kill her whole species for more bones. The technology holding back hurting humanity is head canon. Nothing in the story says Rhea hurt humanity by slowing technology. It’s not like the last time the Nabateans gave humans technology they nuked the planet or something lol. So if all you have is Rheas inactions some how caused more destruction then Nuke clear bombs yeah that can destroy the planet and leave firey ruins lol. I think am done here. Specially when we know Fodlan is in no way less advance then Almyra or Dagda it been mentioned if it was. There is a reason Boofire called Edelgard the antagonist because she is one. Rhea is only one in CF after she looses herself. She’s never against Byleth out of CF. Also there 100% zero evidence Rhea ever stopped the governments from changing there own laws or she has the power to. Charlemagne was already in charge before the pope named him emperor anyway. The pope in three houses has like no power compared to actual pope in the Middle Ages. 

Well, kudos for trying to turn this around on Edelgard. But guess what? Edelgard is WELL AWARE of what letting the Agarthans around causes and is constantly expressing disgust and issues over it, and had full intention of dealing with them, but is aware that without their help, she stands no chance against the Church of Seiros. Unlike Rhea, who is aware of the problems, but did not bother to do anything about it, or has no intention of dealing with it, but instead leave it to Sothis to deal with it.

Edelgard DID help get Flayn back, so I dunno why you wanna go there. She was the one that took Manuela to get tended to. 

Also, the war against the Agarthans is a silent and unseen conflict, something that never affects the public. 

No, the writers confirmed nothing of the sort of how Rhea was trying to protect the rest of the Nabateans. They explained about why Nemesis went after killing the Nabateans. But the War of Heroes is a case of how no one knows of any leftover Nabateans. Cause the Nabateans that Nemesis killed were actually in dragon form, and the Nabateans that fought in the War of Heroes were in human form, given by the statues. But you are well aware that Rhea started a war that lasted for 66 years, right? Does genocide make a continental wide war for 66 years seem worth it? It you think Edelgard's 5 year war is unjustifiable, then you cannot defend Rhea by any means, especially when she admitted in the game that she wanted revenge. 

Wow, dude.

The Church backed Loog's claim for independence and got it for him. The Church literally has the authority and political power to divide nations. They have the authority to ban nations from progressing technology. And no matter how much you wanna use the nuke talk, that doesn't justify the banning of banning of autopsies that could advance medicine, as well as printing press that could have resulted in more educated commoners. Like, actually consider these things for a moment. Stop talking like "slowing" tech is nothing, when Fodlan's been in stasis for 1100 years.

Come on, now, this is ridiculous. 

The game, story, and text have indicated multiple times the type of power and authority the Church has. And most of all, Rhea has time. She has longevity. 

She could have made slow progress in society easily. But she didn't. She did nothing. 

You need to actually consider much more deeply into how serious what Rhea has done or has refused to do rather than defend her to try and insist that Edelgard is objectively wrong. 

That's why Edelgard is about looking at the bigger picture. Because once you see it, you realize how she has a serious point in wanting to stop Rhea.

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25 minutes ago, Julian Solo said:

Edelgards own inactions caused the death of several children being tortured and turned into demonic beasts. Caused Flaynn to be tortured by her army for a month and almost caused Manuela her life. Her desire to reunited the continent instead of taking out the slithers after she got control back from Duke Aegir literally causes entire cities to get nuked off the face of planet. Hell her own inaction in CF causes a second war to deal with the slithers where every other route it’s confirmed there just remaints that need to be squashed. Look at Hapis single endings. Also the writers confirmed Rheas war against Nemesis was self defense since he was going to kill her whole species for more bones. The technology holding back hurting humanity is head canon. Nothing in the story says Rhea hurt humanity by slowing technology. It’s not like the last time the Nabateans gave humans technology they nuked the planet or something lol. So if all you have is Rheas inactions some how caused more destruction then Nuke clear bombs yeah that can destroy the planet and leave firey ruins lol. I think am done here. Specially when we know Fodlan is in no way less advance then Almyra or Dagda it been mentioned if it was. There is a reason Boofire called Edelgard the antagonist because she is one. Rhea is only one in CF after she looses herself. She’s never against Byleth out of CF. Also there 100% zero evidence Rhea ever stopped the governments from changing there own laws or she has the power to. Charlemagne was already in charge before the pope named him emperor anyway. The pope in three houses has like no power compared to actual pope in the Middle Ages. 

Headcanon eh? A book in the this library says exactly this:
 

Quote

 

Encyclopedia of Fódlan's Insects
(This book's title does not match its contests, suggesting a false cover. It seems to be a catalogue of some kind.)
 

  • Distance Viewer ... By combining glasses lenses, one can view great distances with enhanced clarity. Crafting such a tool was forbidden by decree of the archbishop for the following reasons.
  1. The ease of locating enemy camps would escalate wartime violence.
  2. It would be too easy to snipe from afar.
  3. It would lessen the mystery of the goddess, who watches from above.
  • Flammable Black Water ... A sticky black liquid was discovered in northern Faerghus. It burns fiercly and emits a highly toxic gas. The use of this wicked substance was forbidden by decree of the archbishop for the following reasons:
  1. Misuse could result in accidental death.
  2. It could be used tactically by those lacking magical ability.
  3. Competition for it could cause strife.
  • Metal-Mold Priting Maching ... Though initially lauded as a practical replacement for woodblock printing, after careful consideration, the archbishop deemed it taboo for many reasons, particularly the following:
  1. Risk of mass circulation of misinformation and malevolent rumors.
  2. It is useless to illiterate commoners.
  3. Risk of intensifying disparity between church branches.
  • Human Autopsies (Especially Involving Head or Chest Incisions) ... Though it is widely believed that this is medically relevant, such actions upon a corpse are considered desecration of the dead. Since white magic can be used to a similar end, autopsies were deemed taboo. A notable cardinal asserted that if medical science were to excel over faith-based white magic, it would destabilize the foundation of the church.

"A notable cardinal asserted that if medical science were to excel over faith-based white magic, it would destabilize the foundation of the church."

This especially I think is quite egregious, as they are essentially preventing the saving of lives that could be saved by medical science just to make people more dependent on the church and faith-based white magic. 

Look, I understand exactly why Rhea fears technology, she might even have a point, but her fear does have a downside and given these technologies, Fodlan might have entered a renaissance if it wasn't for the banning of these technologies. The level mould printing press especially would have made education and learning a lot easier. But it also would have made it more difficult for the church to control information, that is what they prioritise here, brainwashing because they think people actually having ideas contradicting the church would lead to conflict. Most of this is completely against the values of the modern world. 

Edelgard is really the one who is the champion of the advancement of science and freedom of information, even as an absolute ruler. She is a liberator. She uses power not to restrict the people, but to remove the structures that binds them, Rhea uses power as a tool to control people for their own good. I guess I cannot make a claim of which of the two are objectively in the right as I don't think there is such a thing, it is a conflict of two opposing worldviews. but I know what I believe, and I believe in the advancement of technology and the freedom of information over censorship and propaganda for the sake of peace and safety. Maybe Edelgard's world is inherently more unstable, maybe it would lead to further conflict, but I think freedom is worth it. Rhea really have a bad habit of deciding what information is or is not appropriate for the masses. 

Edelgard in contrast , doesn't seem to silence freedom of expression, she allows an embarrassing opera depicting her swooning over Byleth made by Dorothea for F sake. And I think we all know just how easily embarrassed Edelgard can be when it comes to showing her true feelings

To act like the church and the Archbishop doesn't have any power is freaking ridiculous, all evidence points to them doing their best to basically control the flow of information and engage in thought control. The mideval popes also were not literally the founder of their religion in disguise or could turn into a giant dragon that is literally worshipped by the people. It is the equivalent of the Pope literally revealing themselves to be Jesus and being able to back it up with miracles, they could push through literally anything they want after that. Which does mean that I have to give some credit to Rhea with trying to limit her power with a fake identity, given her religion is followed in the entirety of Fodlan she could claim absolute authority at any point she wishes. And she literally does this in crimson flower when she reveals herself to be Seiros.

37 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Well, kudos for trying to turn this around on Edelgard. But guess what? Edelgard is WELL AWARE of what letting the Agarthans around causes and is constantly expressing disgust and issues over it, and had full intention of dealing with them, but is aware that without their help, she stands no chance against the Church of Seiros. Unlike Rhea, who is aware of the problems, but did not bother to do anything about it, or has no intention of dealing with it, but instead leave it to Sothis to deal with it.

Edelgard DID help get Flayn back, so I dunno why you wanna go there. She was the one that took Manuela to get tended to. 

Also, the war against the Agarthans is a silent and unseen conflict, something that never affects the public. 

No, the writers confirmed nothing of the sort of how Rhea was trying to protect the rest of the Nabateans. They explained about why Nemesis went after killing the Nabateans. But the War of Heroes is a case of how no one knows of any leftover Nabateans. Cause the Nabateans that Nemesis killed were actually in dragon form, and the Nabateans that fought in the War of Heroes were in human form, given by the statues. But you are well aware that Rhea started a war that lasted for 66 years, right? Does genocide make a continental wide war for 66 years seem worth it? It you think Edelgard's 5 year war is unjustifiable, then you cannot defend Rhea by any means, especially when she admitted in the game that she wanted revenge. 

Wow, dude.

The Church backed Loog's claim for independence and got it for him. The Church literally has the authority and political power to divide nations. They have the authority to ban nations from progressing technology. And no matter how much you wanna use the nuke talk, that doesn't justify the banning of banning of autopsies that could advance medicine, as well as printing press that could have resulted in more educated commoners. Like, actually consider these things for a moment. Stop talking like "slowing" tech is nothing, when Fodlan's been in stasis for 1100 years.

Come on, now, this is ridiculous. 

The game, story, and text have indicated multiple times the type of power and authority the Church has. And most of all, Rhea has time. She has longevity. 

She could have made slow progress in society easily. But she didn't. She did nothing. 

You need to actually consider much more deeply into how serious what Rhea has done or has refused to do rather than defend her to try and insist that Edelgard is objectively wrong. 

That's why Edelgard is about looking at the bigger picture. Because once you see it, you realize how she has a serious point in wanting to stop Rhea.

To be fair, I actually think that both Seiros and Edelgard was in the right for starting their respective wars. Granted, I guess I don't really know what kind of king Nemesis really was, did he treat the people with kindness, or was he a tyrant? Granted, given what I know of the man. I don't think he was a good guy, Nemesis seems to be a brute that thinks might makes right. Seiros wouldn't be in the right because she fought the war for the sake of revenge, but because Nemesis was a tyrant. But such a long war would obviously claim a heavy price, it is almost as long as the war with the Fire nation in Avatar the Last Airbender or crying out loud. Which is another war that simply took away too long. By the point you have been at war for a century. It is actually better for everyone involved to make sure someone achieves victory, it is better to lose than to keep feeding lives into the meat grinder. 

So I guess I don't know if Seiros war was justified, but you are right that it it was infinitely more costly than Edelgard's war because of its duration. I actually think neither is objectively in the right because there is no objective right or wrong when it comes to issues of this complicated. While I do believe that such a thing can be measured in that the action that leads to the least amount of suffering in the long run is the right one, it is also literally impossible to know which course of action would cause more or less suffering as we do not have enough information. But what we do know is that Edelgard believes that the war is the lesser of two evils, I would bet so did Seiros. Just as she believes that controlling the people of Fodlan through her religion and censoring the spread of information is better than the alternative.

I think Edelgard is in the right due to her values aligning with mine, but I think both sides in this case, consider themselves the heroes of their own story. Reality is usually like that so it is pretty realistic writing

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1 minute ago, TaxiGemini said:

There is an anatomical model in Manuela's room so I don't think the church's authority to ban technology is that strong.

They only ban certain technology, in the case of autopsies. They only ban it in the case of head and chest. They also allow the wooden printing press, but not the metal one as they fear the latter would be too efficient.

But what I don't like is that every technological development is subject to approval of the church. That is the way more power than an organisation like that is allowed to have my opinion. It is like if every time a new invention was made, it needed to be approved by the Catholic Church or be banned, really sounds like religious oppression to me and you bet I would object to that if this was the case in real life.

 This is not being powerless, this is holding large sway over the entire continent. Seems to me that they are able to dictate whatever they want to any nation in Fodlan, and because of the number of believers in Sothis , the rulers of the nations would have no choice but to obey. People usually think that just because religions don't directly on that much land they don't have as much power as a nation. This is incorrect as the sheer number of worshippers can give religious leaders more sway than any monarch. Even the day I would argue that the Pope has more power than any president as his power isn't limited to one nation, and the Pope used to be even more powerful in the Middle Ages. (Granted, there was less followers back then as Catholic hold of South America hadn't yet been established, but the Pope did have more direct political power back then.)

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2 hours ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

They only ban certain technology, in the case of autopsies. They only ban it in the case of head and chest. They also allow the wooden printing press, but not the metal one as they fear the latter would be too efficient.

But what I don't like is that every technological development is subject to approval of the church. That is the way more power than an organisation like that is allowed to have my opinion. It is like if every time a new invention was made, it needed to be approved by the Catholic Church or be banned, really sounds like religious oppression to me and you bet I would object to that if this was the case in real life.

 This is not being powerless, this is holding large sway over the entire continent. Seems to me that they are able to dictate whatever they want to any nation in Fodlan, and because of the number of believers in Sothis , the rulers of the nations would have no choice but to obey. People usually think that just because religions don't directly on that much land they don't have as much power as a nation. This is incorrect as the sheer number of worshippers can give religious leaders more sway than any monarch. Even the day I would argue that the Pope has more power than any president as his power isn't limited to one nation, and the Pope used to be even more powerful in the Middle Ages. (Granted, there was less followers back then as Catholic hold of South America hadn't yet been established, but the Pope did have more direct political power back then.)

The book said "especially involving Head or Chest Incisions" not "only involving Head or Chest Incisions" 
I agree with you that the church is far from powerless but I don't think that they are able to dictate whatever they want to any nation in Fodlan. I mean they aren't even able to suppress technology, they can only slow it down

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On 4/4/2020 at 3:50 AM, AbsoluteZer0Nova said:

The video delves into exactly why I don't consider the Crimson Flower ending to be the best ending aside from Silver Snow for Fodland. As brought up at some point in the future there will be a retaliation at some point as this change that Edelgard as Emperor reaches to giving other territories such as the Leicester Alliance and especially Faerghus was brought through force with her being the aggressor that initiated the war.

I say especially Faerghus due to the fact as mentioned in the ending it's wiped from the people's memory or as how apparently in the original Japanese translation it and the Church are erased from history. Whether this is due to Edelgard mirroring Rhea even more or she had no control over as after her passing those in the Empire wanting for them to not exist because as Edelgard herself states the other territories as offshoots of the Empire in not acknowledging they won their independence is up for debate but regardless the fact this happens is not a great thing to have to hear and would absolutely give to further resentment.

Ashe: Our pride, our people, our king. You've torned them all apart. Haven't you had enough?! What else is there for you to take?!

I don't really expect this outcome happening. In medieval times patriotism was more something reserved for the upper class. If the fall of their nations gives them more rights then I don't see the average peasant making too much of a fuss about it. Crimean peasants have every cause to hate Daein because they were actively oppressed by their conquerors but the Empire notably lacks that mentality. The nobles might feel more strongly about it but in Edelgard's system nobles aren't tied to their lands anymore and would thus have more problems raising a rebellion. Margrave Gauthier might have an easy time gathering troops for revenge if he still ruled Gauthier but he might have more trouble if Edelgard send him to govern Ordelia instead. 

Ashe evidently does feel strongly on the matter but he's more or less a noble despite his low birth. 

Quote

The entire dlc is you defying Rhea and Aelfric out right betrays her and she does nothing lol. Rhea can’t be this extreme supreme evil tyrant that oppresses the continent and the leader of a far of isolated city state who does nothing. You can’t have both because the game literally just paints her as a lacking leader never an evil mastermind like Edelgard says ever. Also the writers didn’t say she suppressed technology they said slowed. But these is contradicted by the fact Adrestia by itself “destroyed Dagda” and conquered Brigid.  

You don't really defy Rhea in the dlc. Once you meet her she's very much on board with your plan and with Yuri as her agent everything seems to have going according to her own plans anyway. 

Brigid comes off as a pretty weak nation so Adrestia conquering it should come as no surprise. Their defeat of Dagda happened in a defensive war which is naturally easier to win. The library state that the invasion Adrestia itself launched against Dagda also failed handily.  

Edited by Etrurian emperor

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12 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

I don't really expect this outcome happening. In medieval times patriotism was more something reserved for the upper class. If the fall of their nations gives them more rights then I don't see the average peasant making too much of a fuss about it. Crimean nobles have every cause to hate Daein because they were actively oppressed by their conquerors but the Empire notably lacks that mentality. The nobles might feel more strongly about it but in Edelgard's system nobles aren't tied to their lands anymore and would thus have more problems raising a rebellion. Margrave Gauthier might have an easy time gathering troops for revenge if he still ruled Gauthier but he might have more trouble if Edelgard send him to govern Ordelia instead. 

Ashe evidently does feel strongly on the matter but he's more or less a noble despite his low birth. 

 

I have speculated that it is likely that it is mainly former nobles that will be hostile towards Edelgard and that most of the common people will probably love her. A peasant doesn't really care who their king. All orders as long as they treat them well and they have food on the table, if the new emperor increase their living standard, making sure they are well fed and given more rights, they will probably love her. I personally think that nationality is really nothing more than a name, what really matters is people's living conditions. How does it matter if Faergus is now part of the Adrestian Empire. If the Empire makes life better for the majority of people? 

In most cases if people are treated well. They have less reason to rebel. Also, shouldn't Ashe have at least some resentment towards the church, considering they killed his adoptive father? Couldn't he be convinced that Lonato was right and died for a noble cause?

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51 minutes ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

In most cases if people are treated well. They have less reason to rebel. Also, shouldn't Ashe have at least some resentment towards the church, considering they killed his adoptive father? Couldn't he be convinced that Lonato was right and died for a noble cause?

If picked for the Beagles he does in fact defect based on Lonato's fate. 

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12 hours ago, TaxiGemini said:

There is an anatomical model in Manuela's room so I don't think the church's authority to ban technology is that strong.

9 hours ago, TaxiGemini said:

The book said "especially involving Head or Chest Incisions" not "only involving Head or Chest Incisions" 

Keep in mind that it states that white magic already does some things in place of normal medicine, meaning that said anatomical model is something made from what white magic provided. But how accurate it is is questionable. Either way, there's still the case of how further autopsies are things that can very much influence the course of medicine, especially regarding the brain and heart. 

Also, without autopsies, you can never have such things like surgeries. Imagine if someone needs a heart surgery? Or brain surgery? Guess what? You can't. Because head and chest incisions were barred, no one would have the experience to actually perform such delicate work. 

9 hours ago, TaxiGemini said:

I agree with you that the church is far from powerless but I don't think that they are able to dictate whatever they want to any nation in Fodlan. I mean they aren't even able to suppress technology, they can only slow it down

Um... it's been literally 1100 years, and the medieval times is STILL in the medieval times. Claude even considered Fodlan a backwater place. 

So no, they prevented tech from advancing for a damn long time. There's a point where you have to wonder about how slow may as well be suppression. Hell, being invaded by the Srengs is something that they put all their hopes into the Lance of Ruin on, rather than their own abilities. 

Also, the fact that the Church told Faerghus to not even use oil, a natural resource, kind of speaks volumes. Granted, it's the one thing I personally am okay with, especially since this is the only thing that did not have a Church related reason, but it still says a lot.

One more thing.

You need to understand something. Having a lot of political power and authority does not mean that they even need to dictate things. Having political power and authority gives someone the means to interfere with political changes or such. The Church still meddled into the political affairs, backed Loog's claim for independence, therefore giving it to him. Just as how I state that Rhea could easily meddle into Edelgard's efforts to change Adrestia politically, making it so that Edelgard cannot remove the nobility or have it change anytime soon. 

You don't have to have absolute power to dictate things be able to meddle into political changes. 

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2 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

Keep in mind that it states that white magic already does some things in place of normal medicine, meaning that said anatomical model is something made from what white magic provided. But how accurate it is is questionable. Either way, there's still the case of how further autopsies are things that can very much influence the course of medicine, especially regarding the brain and heart.

If anatomical model is something made from what white magic provided, maybe white magic can heal heart or brain disease too since the game don't tell us what white magic can and can't do. Let's put this autopsies discussion behind cause it can go either way.

2 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

Um... it's been literally 1100 years, and the medieval times is STILL in the medieval times. Claude even considered Fodlan a backwater place. 

So no, they prevented tech from advancing for a damn long time. There's a point where you have to wonder about how slow may as well be suppression. Hell, being invaded by the Srengs is something that they put all their hopes into the Lance of Ruin on, rather than their own abilities. 

Also, the fact that the Church told Faerghus to not even use oil, a natural resource, kind of speaks volumes. Granted, it's the one thing I personally am okay with, especially since this is the only thing that did not have a Church related reason, but it still says a lot.

One more thing.

You need to understand something. Having a lot of political power and authority does not mean that they even need to dictate things. Having political power and authority gives someone the means to interfere with political changes or such. The Church still meddled into the political affairs, backed Loog's claim for independence, therefore giving it to him. Just as how I state that Rhea could easily meddle into Edelgard's efforts to change Adrestia politically, making it so that Edelgard cannot remove the nobility or have it change anytime soon. 

You don't have to have absolute power to dictate things be able to meddle into political changes. 

I have seen many arguments about the church's power in this forum and I don't want to repeat that so let's say we agree to disagree then.

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Just now, TaxiGemini said:

If anatomical model is something made from what white magic provided, maybe white magic can heal heart or brain disease too since the game don't tell us what white magic can and can't do. Let's put this autopsies discussion behind cause it can go either way.

We won't know because, in the end, Rhea prevented it's progress because if it PROVES that it's superior to white magic, it undermines the Church. The Church needs the people to remain faithful to it and white magic, which is based on faith. 

2 minutes ago, TaxiGemini said:

I have seen many arguments about the church's power in this forum and I don't want to repeat that so let's say we agree to disagree then.

Except you're arguing that the Church doesn't have the power to dictate, but political power is not about dictating things. It's about what you can influence, either to enhance or hinder things. 

Just as above, if the Church has the authority to hinder the progress of technology, then it can hinder many other things as well, including political changes to government in nations. 

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3 minutes ago, ZeManaphy said:

Does it ever say in game that the archbishop was always Rhea? 

Rhea does mention other archbishops in cindered shadows, but I am relatively sure she is lying.  I think the other archbishops was just Rhea under different names

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5 minutes ago, ZeManaphy said:

Does it ever say in game that the archbishop was always Rhea? 

 

1 minute ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

Rhea does mention other archbishops in cindered shadows, but I am relatively sure she is lying.  I think the other archbishops was just Rhea under different names

The moment you know that Rhea is Seiros and is essentially immortal, you know that she's been running the Church all the time. I mean, Jeralt is over a hundred years old, and Rhea was still the archbishop when he was a boy. 

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19 hours ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

Rhea does mention other archbishops in cindered shadows, but I am relatively sure she is lying.  I think the other archbishops was just Rhea under different names

I think she also mentions other archbishops, when you look at her crown during perfect tea time, but yeah she is probably talking about her and herself

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On 4/7/2020 at 7:46 PM, omegaxis1 said:

Um... it's been literally 1100 years, and the medieval times is STILL in the medieval times. Claude even considered Fodlan a backwater place. 

Its possible that's due to the church however its worth noting that medieval stasis is the default state of any fantasy world. 

Middle Earth and Tamriel have gone through several ages and are still a medieval worlds. The general timeframe of Westeros didn't seem to have budged an inch from the Targaryan conquest up to the first book/season. 

What we miss to put things into perspective is a look of places outside Fodlan. Almyra does seem to have canons and Claude says they are more advanced but we don't know to what extend. We don't know a single thing about Dagda other then that it exists and Streng seems to be below Fodlan since its a land of dirty barbarians. 

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33 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Its possible that's due to the church however its worth noting that medieval stasis is the default state of any fantasy world. 

Middle Earth and Tamriel have gone through several ages and are still a medieval worlds. The general timeframe of Westeros didn't seem to have budged an inch from the Targaryan conquest up to the first book/season. 

What we miss to put things into perspective is a look of places outside Fodlan. Almyra does seem to have canons and Claude says they are more advanced but we don't know to what extend. We don't know a single thing about Dagda other then that it exists and Streng seems to be below Fodlan since its a land of dirty barbarians. 

But there is evidence that Fodlan might have gone through a technological revolution if it wasn't for the church, considering some things in the abyss library

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1 minute ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Its possible that's due to the church however its worth noting that medieval stasis is the default state of any fantasy world. 

Middle Earth and Tamriel have gone through several ages and are still a medieval worlds. The general timeframe of Westeros didn't seem to have budged an inch from the Targaryan conquest up to the first book/season. 

What we miss to put things into perspective is a look of places outside Fodlan. Almyra does seem to have canons and Claude says they are more advanced but we don't know to what extend. We don't know a single thing about Dagda other then that it exists and Streng seems to be below Fodlan since its a land of dirty barbarians. 

That is what is considered, but we have to remember that the Srengs are apparently so strong that House Gautier needs to rely on the Lance of Ruin to do most of the fighting. Take that out, and suddenly Faerghus cannot hold Sreng back. It's a case where the Relics are basically the primary methods of combat against the invading forces. 

 

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1 hour ago, omegaxis1 said:

That is what is considered, but we have to remember that the Srengs are apparently so strong that House Gautier needs to rely on the Lance of Ruin to do most of the fighting. Take that out, and suddenly Faerghus cannot hold Sreng back. It's a case where the Relics are basically the primary methods of combat against the invading forces. 

 

I kind of wonder what makes Sreng so strong, numbers or superior technology?

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19 minutes ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

I kind of wonder what makes Sreng so strong, numbers or superior technology?

They never really go in depth. In fact, one could view this as how much of an isolationist the continent has become. 

Ferdinand even confesses that he believed that the other places like Dagda and Briggid were inferior in terms of skill and weaponry to the Empire, but then realized how wrong he was after practicing with Petra and examining Dagdan weapons.

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21 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

They never really go in depth. In fact, one could view this as how much of an isolationist the continent has become. 

Ferdinand even confesses that he believed that the other places like Dagda and Briggid were inferior in terms of skill and weaponry to the Empire, but then realized how wrong he was after practicing with Petra and examining Dagdan weapons.

That might suggest the other nations outside of Fodlan might indeed be more advanced

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