New Heroes: Journey Begins

[Michelaar]

Just now, Stroud said:

At least this means that Lago did his job as a Villain didn't he?

Certainly! That is what made me appreciate him too!

Edited April 6, 2020 by Michelaar

[Stroud]

Yeah, this gives him another light. Its also sometimes a gripe I have with some other Villain. That sometimes they make them too cool, or give them something to emphasize, which can be a great thing. But overall it can turn out that we actually do not hate them or have negativ feelings for them. But rather respect them find them awesome and such. Even if they commit an act which is too hate. If everything else overshadows it this can also hurt the villain.

It's also not an easy job to do so. Depending on the overall world building. And even in Wrestling, you have those kind of heels which are annoying. Some of them may be not so good with it. But some can really manage it to make the crowd going wild. And just having the moment to shut them up can work. Of course this also needs Screentime to work. 

 

[XRay]

39 minutes ago, Etheus said:

No, I get annoyed when they add a character that I do like as a GHB, and then totally botch their kit, giving them nothing unique. Hello, Cormag.

Uniqueness does not matter to a unit's performance. Vanilla skills do not matter either since it can be replaced.

For example, until very recently with Lunar Arc and Persecution Bow, no exclusive bow has come remotely close to rivalling Brave Bow in performance. Even other recent bows like Cunning Bow are still crap compared to Brave Bow.

What matters the most is stat distribution and Weapon-movement class. Cormag has good movement to suit a Player Phase style of play, and he has decent Atk/Spd to run a standard Desperation build, and got enough Atk to run a slow Brave build if you find his Spd to be too lacking. Cormag does not need to be a top of the line unit to be viable. With Hone Flier VS!Azura and/or Peony, he should have more than enough Spd to double most units.

For another example, Kronya sure is unique and useful, but her application is largely limited to Aether Raids, and she is pretty much crap elsewhere. She cannot be used in Arena because AMH!Hector does not work with a lot of map layouts and Duma does not deal enough damage. She does not work in Abyssal content, Allegiance Battles, Rival Domains, Grand Conquest, and Mjölnir's Strike because her support units cannot deal damage to additional reinforcements. She does not work in Røkkr Sieges due to aforementioned reinforcements and because the Røkkr has too much HP. She is not cost efficient for Arena Assault, Story Maps, and Tempest Trials, and might not work with every map in Story Maps and Tempest Trials. Even in Aether Raids, she still has reliability issues even after I have used her for weeks nonstop and have seen a huge reduction in Infantry Pulse teams. Her uniqueness is good for sure, but the application is so narrow and the cost so exorbitant that it does not make much sense to invest in her unless you have lots of Orbs to throw around, already have a lot of the components in place, or simply like her due to favoritism.

[Othin]

6 minutes ago, XRay said:

Uniqueness does not matter to a unit's performance. Vanilla skills do not matter either since it can be replaced.

For example, until very recently with Lunar Arc and Persecution Bow, no exclusive bow has come remotely close to rivalling Brave Bow in performance. Even other recent bows like Cunning Bow are still crap compared to Brave Bow.

What matters the most is stat distribution and Weapon-movement class. Cormag has good movement to suit a Player Phase style of play, and he has decent Atk/Spd to run a standard Desperation build, and got enough Atk to run a slow Brave build if you find his Spd to be too lacking. Cormag does not need to be a top of the line unit to be viable. With Hone Flier VS!Azura and/or Peony, he should have more than enough Spd to double most units.

For another example, Kronya sure is unique and useful, but her application is largely limited to Aether Raids, and she is pretty much crap elsewhere. She cannot be used in Arena because AMH!Hector does not work with a lot of map layouts and Duma does not deal enough damage. She does not work in Abyssal content, Allegiance Battles, Rival Domains, Grand Conquest, and Mjölnir's Strike because her support units cannot deal damage to additional reinforcements. She does not work in Røkkr Sieges due to aforementioned reinforcements and because the Røkkr has too much HP. She is not cost efficient for Arena Assault, Story Maps, and Tempest Trials, and might not work with every map in Story Maps and Tempest Trials. Even in Aether Raids, she still has reliability issues even after I have used her for weeks nonstop and have seen a huge reduction in Infantry Pulse teams. Her uniqueness is good for sure, but the application is so narrow and the cost so exorbitant that it does not make much sense to invest in her unless you have lots of Orbs to throw around, already have a lot of the components in place, or simply like her due to favoritism.

Assuming a unit is high-investment and competing with other high-investment units is just one possible way to evaluate them. 

[Nym]

I just want to point out that.

We once again have a banner with only one male unit who just so happen to be a demote with average skills. And the GHB is also male and Iago will probably have bad skills, even if he gets his prf tome.

IS, can you change patten already -_-'

[XRay]

26 minutes ago, Othin said:

Assuming a unit is high-investment and competing with other high-investment units is just one possible way to evaluate them. 

Most units are still viable even with a lackluster statline. Despite me shitting on non-Galeforce melee combat units, they are technically still viable for Player Phase teams. They are not the best option, but it is doable, since thousands of players out there are still using melee nukes. The only case where a unit is not viable is if they got no access to decent support skills (so they cannot function as a support unit) and got a pathetic Atk stat with no way of addressing or working around that low Atk stat (so they cannot function as a combat unit either).

At the very least, there is no such thing as a completely useless ranged unit. Mages can solve their low Atk stat with Blade tomes, as 24 additional Atk is a pretty big deal. Archers can run Firesweep, where raw damage output is not that important. Dagger units can run Temari and act as a pretty good debuffer. Staff units are primarily support units so they are never out of a job on an Enemy Phase team, and they can rely on Pain when pressed into combat.

I have less experience on the melee side, but low Atk melee units can rely on Enemy Phase builds to charge a stronger Special. Additionally, melee fliers can use Firesweep-Hit and Run to emulate ranged Firesweep nukes. And melee cavalry can use Firesweep-Drag Back/Lunge on defense teams to break super tank formations.

21 minutes ago, Nym said:

We once again have a banner with only one male unit who just so happen to be a demote with average skills.

Fortress Res is not the most high demand skill out there, but it is something. Certainly better than Resistance+3 for Sabotagers and Chill soakers.

Edited April 6, 2020 by XRay

[Nym]

7 minutes ago, XRay said:

Fortress Res is not the most high demand skill out there, but it is something. Certainly better than Resistance+3 for Sabotagers and Chill soakers.

Meh, it's something yes but it's far from being the best.

[XRay]

1 minute ago, Nym said:

Meh, it's something yes but it's far from being the best.

The best option is Fort. Def/Res, but Fortress Res is only missing one point of Res compared to Fort. Def/Res, so it is not very far off from the best. In exchange, Fortress Res's Atk reduction is higher at Atk-3, making it slightly better on teams using BK!Eliwood.

[Vicious Sal]

1 hour ago, Ice Dragon said:

Bramimond cannot disable her Joint Drive Atk's effect on herself. It's her own skill, and Bramimond makes allies' skills disappear, not the allies themselves.

I know, but she won't be getting the decked out stats thet Yato/Knightly/Lordly lance give, none of the drives etc. 

An since her weapon gives speed and she has more than 50 atk, she'll get the full force of Bramimond's Void Tome anyway. All I'm saying is, not impressed with her as a unit. Mostly because of her weapon and colour.

[Diovani Bressan]

6 minutes ago, Vicious Sal said:

I know, but she won't be getting the decked out stats thet Yato/Knightly/Lordly lance give, none of the drives etc. 

An since her weapon gives speed and she has more than 50 atk, she'll get the full force of Bramimond's Void Tome anyway. All I'm saying is, not impressed with her as a unit. Mostly because of her weapon and colour.

I understand what you mean.

She is not that good for light season because Bramimond can shut down a lot of stats she could get, and she is not that good for Astra either because Thrasir exists, and in both seasons we have Julias and Deirdres, and being Blue means they will not need much effort to destroy her.

I still believe she is a pretty good unit, and we only have one unit that can nullify drives and similar effects, so she still is useful, but I understand your point of view.

[Ice Dragon]

29 minutes ago, Vicious Sal said:

she'll get the full force of Bramimond's Void Tome anyway.

But since literally everyone and their mother will have Void Tome activate against them, that's hardly a disadvantage. Void Tome's effects activate against so many opponents that it's effectively just the weapon's default state rather than a special case.

[XRay]

1 hour ago, Vicious Sal said:

An since her weapon gives speed and she has more than 50 atk, she'll get the full force of Bramimond's Void Tome anyway. All I'm saying is, not impressed with her as a unit. Mostly because of her weapon and colour.

32 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

But since literally everyone and their mother will have Void Tome activate against them, that's hardly a disadvantage. Void Tome's effects activate against so many opponents that it's effectively just the weapon's default state rather than a special case.

Y'all need some Henry. You can even run full Tactics on a +10+10 Henry (49 Atk and 34 Spd with full Tactics) and none of Void Tome's effects will activate. Boey +10+10 works too, but he cannot run Atk and Spd Tactics or else Bramimond will trigger Void Tome.

[Sunwoo]

Wow, for fuck's sake.

Regardless of how much certain people hate Iago, he's a legit character in a legit game who's not an alt and was probably going to get into the game at some point in some way in some form. People who are offended by his existence are not obligated to keep him in their barracks or to even recruit him. Let people who actually want him in the game be happy that he's there.

And it's not unusual to like villainous characters just because they're amusing, not because they're good characters. I mean, I only wanted Kempf in the game because he's a fucking hilarious character (in the way Narcian is). I don't think he's super well-written or anything, but there's nothing wrong with wanting him to exist in general. Villains are in this weird ground where it's totally valid to like them for being such a hate sink, for being well-written and nuanced, or for being amusing if nothing else.

[Baldrick]

4 hours ago, Gregster101 said:

Iago is a perfect example of a character whose sole existence revolves around Corrin. He's a character who's designed to hate Corrin. All he ever does in his screen time is conspire against Corrin. CORRIN CORRIN CORRIN! You see what I'm getting at here? Aside from having an unexplained hate boner for Corrin, Iago's literally just a nothing character. It's one of the main reasons why I hate Faye in Shadows of Valentia, cuz aside from her massive crush on Alm, she's literally just nothing. 

That’s not a problem with Iago’s character, but the writing and world building of Fates. Contrast Iago with Lekain; he also lacks any kind of motivation for what he does, but he keeps busy. There’s about half a dozen reasons to hate him by the time you fight him. For Iago, there’s one, and it’s pretty weak.

My memory of Conquest is a little fuzzy, but is Iago the one who points out to Garon that Corrin isn’t loyal to him? That guy is basically the only voice of reason.

[Gregster101]

6 minutes ago, Baldrick said:

That’s not a problem with Iago’s character, but the writing and world building of Fates. Contrast Iago with Lekain; he also lacks any kind of motivation for what he does, but he keeps busy. There’s about half a dozen reasons to hate him by the time you fight him. For Iago, there’s one, and it’s pretty weak.

My memory of Conquest is a little fuzzy, but is Iago the one who points out to Garon that Corrin isn’t loyal to him? That guy is basically the only voice of reason.

Oh trust me, it's definitely a problem with the writing and world building of Fates, how so much stuff is just revolved around Corrin. I'm just pointing out Iago as an example of this, since aside from his hatred of Corrin, he's literally just nothing. He's not memorable, he's not intimidating, he's not entertaining, he's literally just a nothing character.

It's been a very long time since I've played Conquest, so I don't remember every single detail off the top of my head.

[Othin]

3 minutes ago, Gregster101 said:

Oh trust me, it's definitely a problem with the writing and world building of Fates, how so much stuff is just revolved around Corrin. I'm just pointing out Iago as an example of this, since aside from his hatred of Corrin, he's literally just nothing. He's not memorable, he's not intimidating, he's not entertaining, he's literally just a nothing character.

It's been a very long time since I've played Conquest, so I don't remember every single detail off the top of my head.

While I'm no fan of Iago either, you can very clearly see from this thread that he's memorable and entertaining to some people. That doesn't not count just because it's not how you feel about him.

[Sunwoo]

17 minutes ago, Baldrick said:

That’s not a problem with Iago’s character, but the writing and world building of Fates. Contrast Iago with Lekain; he also lacks any kind of motivation for what he does, but he keeps busy. There’s about half a dozen reasons to hate him by the time you fight him. For Iago, there’s one, and it’s pretty weak.

Actually, I have to disagree with you on Lekain not having motivation for what he does. He has the oldest motivation in the book: power and greed. Sanaki and Sephiran are not being the good puppet rulers he wanted them to be, so he's trying to get them removed from power through whatever means he can so he will be (in practice) the most powerful figure in Begnion.

Iago's basically just a loyal toady for Garon, but it'd be nice to know why he's so loyal to him and whether he was loyal to Garon before he became ... gooified.

[Baldrick]

27 minutes ago, Sunwoo said:

Actually, I have to disagree with you on Lekain not having motivation for what he does. He has the oldest motivation in the book: power and greed.

I guess it’s technically a motivation, but like how Iago is motivated by loyalty to Garon, it’s not developed by a backstory or a goal he’s trying to achieve.

If we don’t know anything about why an antagonist does what they do, it’s impossible to even consider their point of view.

[Sunwoo]

9 minutes ago, Baldrick said:

I guess it’s technically a motivation, but like how Iago is motivated by loyalty to Garon, it’s not developed by a backstory or a goal he’s trying to achieve.

If we don’t know anything about why an antagonist does what they do, it’s impossible to even consider their point of view.

In all fairness, do we understand why people irl are motivated by greed and power? Do some of these people have a real life backstory or goal that "develops" their greed and desire for power?

Being driven by loyalty to another character, especially if said character is a dick, is something that I feel needs an explanation. Power and greed are motivations I don't really think need an explanation, because they're kind of an explanation in themselves, which is why Lekain is at least better explained than Iago imo.

[Icelerate]

You guys are going to be amazed at Iago's kit. 

[Baldrick]

48 minutes ago, Sunwoo said:

In all fairness, do we understand why people irl are motivated by greed and power? Do some of these people have a real life backstory or goal that "develops" their greed and desire for power?

Very few people irl would desire power for the sake of power. They would almost always have some kind of “goal” in mind; It may be interesting such as to correct a perceived injustice, it may be mundane such as to gain wealth or satisfy a basic need. Most people also have a “backstory” in that their past experience affects their thoughts, feelings and how they react to events, and may affect what they want.

For a fictional character, the author can give them whatever backstory and goal they like, or whatever serves the narrative.

48 minutes ago, Sunwoo said:

Being driven by loyalty to another character, especially if said character is a dick, is something that I feel needs an explanation. Power and greed are motivations I don't really think need an explanation, because they're kind of an explanation in themselves, which is why Lekain is at least better explained than Iago imo.

Being the right-hand man to the king does offer some power over others, so one can at least infer Iago acts that way because he doesn’t want to be usurped by Corrin. Still, I feel both are major antagonists and so should have a more interesting motivation.

[FoxyGrandpa]

https://imgur.com/a/jEdNQuD

Iago's weapon, stats, and skills.

Some might call his weapon inconsistent, which is true, but it'll be very fun to use. Definitely merging this guy up.

His shit-eating grin is a nice bonus.

[Gregster101]

I already hate Iago's art already FEH. Bravo FEH.

Also it looks like Iago still has his voice actor from Warriors instead of his original voice actor from Fates. Which admittedly is a bit weird since they did get him back for Christmas Jaffar.

[Kaden]

20 hours ago, XRay said:

Also, Julia is in the opposite situation compared to Boey, so she can put Close Foil to use immediately. Her Def is godawful though, so I am not sure Close Foil would even be sufficient. Boey's low Res is less of an issue with Eir on the team. Naga is pretty crap as a support unit though, and Julia already got dragon Effectiveness Weapon too, so I guess we will have to wait for a Def Light Mythic.

I forgot about Julia and her Naga tome's Dragon Counter unique refinement. Looking at her and Boey closer, they have similar stat spreads and their defenses mirrored. Compared to Boey, Julia dumped HP for Atk and vice versa for Boey to Julia. Boey's 43 HP, 29 Atk, 27 Spd, 32 Def, and 18 Res to Julia's 38 HP, 35 Atk, 26 Spd, 17 Def, and 32 Res.

Refined Naga has Bracing Stance 2 as its base effect, so Julia will have 21 Def and 36 Res on enemy phase which makes her defense a bit better than what it is. During light season and with one Eir, though, any light blessed unit will get a flat HP/Res+5 in Aether Raids. Boey's higher HP also helps cushion his lower resistance in addition to having WTA against colorless units further reducing damage he takes from more units.

With Close Foil and unique refined Naga, Julia will have 54 Atk and 26 Def against axes, beasts, bows, daggers, lances, and swords and 36 Res against dragons, healers, and mages. Julia will also have 21 Def against magic damage units, but we don't have a healer or mage that has adaptive damage and her defense is still lower than her resistance that adaptive damage from a physical damage unit, so Annette and Felicia, is still going to target her defense. Against physical damage units, her bulk would be 64 total and 45x2. Against magic damage units, her bulk would be 74 total and 55x2.

As for Boey with Close Ward and unique refined Inscribed Tome, Boey will have 48 Atk and 23 Res against dragons, healers, and mages; 57 Atk against blue and colorless dragons, healers, and Bramimond. Boey's bulk against magical damage units would be 66 total and 45x2. That's almost the same as Julia's against physical damage units.

[Tybrosion]

Just in case anyone else thought that Forrest's stat line looked familiar: 

Spoiler

Summer Leo: 37/32/27/16/35, 147
Forrest: 39/32/26/19/35, 151

And IS seriously thought that a nerd like me wouldn't notice that they just gave Summer Leo's stat line to Forrest with a couple touch-ups.

Oh well, I'm still going all-in on colorless to work towards that +10 for Forrest.