Voting Jubilee

[Troykv]

21 minutes ago, SuperNova125 said:

I think that's the point, in my eyes at least. Good/successful villains don't always have to be moral/good people or make you feel sympathy for them. Now I agree that the game tries to make you feel sad for him especially at the end with Rinea's murder (something which I didn't like that much). However, that's a thing with the game, as a villain berkut is successful because he makes you want to beat him and stop him and that's a feeling that few antagonists create nowadays and he has to be one of the highlights of echoes (for me).

But then the game tries to treat him like a victim.

Which he kind of was. But he enjoyed every second of assholery. Piting this kind of guy is kind of insulting to the player unless is mocking him.

He had his moment to just flee with Rinea. Or trying to create his own army to fight against Alm's legitimacy. 

But in the end he was just a heartless hypocrite that betrayed his love and even his own ideals for the sake of free power 

[Florete]

"The villain you just can't hate"

"Choose a hero"

The irony.

I chose Edelgard.

[Humanoid]

Yeah, to clarify, as per several of the posts above, a lot of my disdain is down to how the writers have tried (and failed) to evoke some sort of sympathy for him. It comes off as cheap emotional manipulation. And why? Because he's considered physically attractive?  It's particularly jarring next to Slaynte and Desaix who barely look human - more like caricatures - it's a joke how heavily they lean on that shorthand.

The relationship between him and Rinea comes off as nothing more than your standard medieval political marriage - I certainly don't see any true mutual love there, nothing like a Shakespearean tragedy. He takes her for granted, and she's simply a meek wallflower wholly dependent on him, probably married off to him by her family. And y'know what, that's probably the most realistic aspect of their relationship, whether intentional or not.

As for wanting to "beat" him, I don't think that holds water either. I'd already beaten him once. He gets to run off because of plot armour. Again, I end up just being frustrated at the cheap writing rather than any desire to just keep following and beating him up his pathetic self over and over as he runs away like a writer's pet. There is zero feeling of "I am so going to get even with him" like I have in true RPGs (like, say, Benny in New Vegas). Does Alm even have any personal beef with him? I don't recall any, from Alm's perspective he's probably even less notable, on par with the several named but otherwise wholly generic Rigellian generals we defeat on the way. Does Alm even know Rinea before she carks it?

 

P.S. I have no fondness of Rudolf either, who manages to screw over both his son and his nephew because ...reasons. He goes on my dislike list too.

P.P.S. I like Hans because when Xander tries to throw shade on him being a "reformed" criminal, the evidence throughout the game actually offers full vindication to that surface level claim. He does his job so well that this former street-level thug becomes a decorated general in the army. That's ...actually a redemption story, even if unintentional. I point out that I didn't mention Iago, because while he's visually interesting, he's much more of a standard "sneering seneschal" stereotype.

[eclipse]

4 hours ago, Gregster101 said:

If you think Berkut is worse than Iago and Hans...I'm disappointed in you

Cut it out already.

---

There's literally one guy on the wrong side who I respected the hell out of all the way through - Murdock.  Brunnya wasn't bad, either.  Zephiel isn't my favorite Big Bad, but two out of three competent generals says a lot about him.

[Sayyyaka]

Wow, I thought I was crazy for disliking Berkut, but I guess I'm not alone.
This was an easy vote for me: Arvis.  He's someone I can genuinely say is villainous yet difficult to hate.  Fans of his like to joke that he did nothing wrong or whatever, but I disagree.  He did nearly everything wrong, and that's the point.
I'm just patiently waiting for the day we get armoured gen 2 Arvis...at least whenever he releases he'll be absolutely stacked with his BST.

[Diovani Bressan]

I voted for Rudolf.

I also considered Berkut, but nah. He doesn't deserve my vote for bring a spoiled kid and for what he did to Rinea.

Edit: I only considered villains from FE games I played. But I know how great Arvis and Lyon are. I would even vote for Iago, because he is a enjoyable character... I kinda hate him, but in a different way.

Edited April 10, 2020 by Diovani Bressan

[Benice]

Lyon is a cinammon bun through and through.

[SoulWeaver]

Nichol and Hestia were my calls this round. Jedah’s daughters are just tragic in general, even if it’s a rather stereotypical story idea. As for Nichol, he’s clearly lined up to be something more than what we got, and he’s basically the best capturable Unit in the game, that’s a double whammy for me.

3 hours ago, eclipse said:

Cut it out already.

---

There's literally one guy on the wrong side who I respected the hell out of all the way through - Murdock.  Brunnya wasn't bad, either.  Zephiel isn't my favorite Big Bad, but two out of three competent generals says a lot about him.

Don’t forget his third General was basically the absolute best comic relief character until Owain. Pretty much three star underlings, not bad.

 

[Fire Emblem Fan]

6 hours ago, SuperNova125 said:

I think that's the point, in my eyes at least.

It may be the point, but they failed that point, in my eyes. They were much more successful with these sorts of things in the past. And for this specific voting topic (the villain you just can't hate), Berkut is exactly who I would not vote for, because he's a villain I hate, not one I can't hate.

[Jotari]

12 hours ago, Gregster101 said:

If you think Berkut is worse than Iago and Hans...I'm disappointed in you

At least you only fight Iago and Hans like once per route. Berkut basically becomes Team Rocket by the end.

[Gregster101]

17 minutes ago, Jotari said:

At least you only fight Iago and Hans like once per route. Berkut basically becomes Team Rocket by the end.

You fight them twice in Birthright. But it still kills me when people say Hans and Iago are good, and Berkut isn't

[Jotari]

2 minutes ago, Gregster101 said:

You fight them twice in Birthright. But it still kills me when people say Hans and Iago are good, and Berkut isn't

 Wouldn't describe any of them as remotely good, but I have more issues with Berkut. Issues stemming from the fact that I have a control set that let's me know the story is completely unchanged by his existence.

[Gregster101]

Just now, Jotari said:

 Wouldn't describe any of them as remotely good, but I have more issues with Berkut. Issues stemming from the fact that I have a control set that let's me know the story is completely unchanged by his existence.

Does that mean the story is hurt by Berkut's existence? No.

[Jotari]

9 minutes ago, Gregster101 said:

Does that mean the story is hurt by Berkut's existence? No.

I prefer characters to have positive impact on stories over "neutral, at best".

[Gregster101]

3 minutes ago, Jotari said:

I prefer characters to have positive impact on stories over "neutral, at best".

Either way, I'll take a "neutral, at best" impact character like Berkut over "negative impact" characters like Iago and Hans any day of the fucking week.

[silverserpent]

I chose Narcian. Because it's Narcian. Who doesn't love him? His Easter lines are more Golden than his original ones.

[Jotari]

1 minute ago, Gregster101 said:

Either way, I'll take a "neutral, at best" impact character like Berkut over "negative impact" characters like Iago and Hans any day of the fucking week.

I don't think either are particularly likable or charismatic characters. But they do have more defined and necessary roles in their plots then Berkut does imo. If you remove either of them it would take significant rewrites to cover their lack of existence. I don't think either of them are making Fates plot worse by their mere existence. Fates, particularly Conquest, just has a tonne of problems to begin with.

[Gregster101]

1 minute ago, Jotari said:

I don't think either are particularly likable or charismatic characters. But they do have more defined and necessary roles in their plots then Berkut does imo. If you remove either of them it would take significant rewrites to cover their lack of existence. I don't think either of them are making Fates plot worse by their mere existence. Fates, particularly Conquest, just has a tonne of problems to begin with.

Be honest with me. Can you really justify a role for Hans that's anything more than "generic brigand boss for one chapter". It really isn't that hard to rewrite Fates plot to accommodate Hans being killed off in the prologue before the Path Split.

You're never gonna convince me that Iago and Hans are better than Berkut ever.

[Jotari]

11 minutes ago, Gregster101 said:

Be honest with me. Can you really justify a role for Hans that's anything more than "generic brigand boss for one chapter". It really isn't that hard to rewrite Fates plot to accommodate Hans being killed off in the prologue before the Path Split.

You're never gonna convince me that Iago and Hans are better than Berkut ever.

The thing is Fates needs a generic brigand type boss character for the plot they're trying to tell. This is especially true in Conquest where they need "bad" Nohrians to contrast the "good" Nohrians of the playable characters. Chapter 13 especially requires Hans existence. Revelations being the plot that requires Nohr the least is also the one that dispatches the two of them the earliest (but even there it's best to have some kind of established character to serve as a boss to end the first act of the game before heading to Valla). Now you could say that it's bad to have "bad" Nohrians that basically absolve Corrin and co from all the misdeeds that playing as Nohr should entail, and I'd agree, but that's an issue with the story itself, not with Hans or Iago.

Edited April 11, 2020 by Jotari

[Diovani Bressan]

8 minutes ago, Gregster101 said:

Either way, I'll take a "neutral, at best" impact character like Berkut over "negative impact" characters like Iago and Hans any day of the fucking week.

I don't see why Fates's story receive a negative impact from Iago or Hans... Without them, the story would be worst than it already is.

The thing is: If you remove Iago and/or Hans, the story changes... If you remove Berkut, it the story continues the same.

Iago and Hans may cause a negative impact in your enjoyment of the game, but they don't negatively impact the story.

I am not saying that Berkut is a worst character compare to the Fates villains... But Berkut's existance is as important as Faye's.

[Gregster101]

9 minutes ago, Diovani Bressan said:

I don't see why Fates's story receive a negative impact from Iago or Hans... Without them, the story would be worst than it already is.

The thing is: If you remove Iago and/or Hans, the story changes... If you remove Berkut, it the story continues the same.

Iago and Hans may cause a negative impact in your enjoyment of the game, but they don't negatively impact the story.

I am not saying that Berkut is a worst character compare to the Fates villains... But Berkut's existance is as important as Faye's.

You guys still haven't convinced me how Iago and Hans are better than Berkut in any meaningful way. Let me enjoy Berkut without acting like he's literally worse than Iago and Hans.

[eclipse]

3 minutes ago, Gregster101 said:

You guys still haven't convinced me how Iago and Hans are better than Berkut in any meaningful way. Let me enjoy Berkut without acting like he's literally worse than Iago and Hans.

And it's not our job.

Seriously, let it go.  Because I'm very tempted to warn you if you keep bringing this up.  This is the Voting Jubilee thread, not your soapbox.

[Xenomata]

...yeah so I've been thinking about it all day and I finally came to a conclusion.

This question sucks and I abstain.

[AnonymousSpeed]

Gotta rep for my boy Caellach.

I don't even play Heroes.

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, Gregster101 said:

You guys still haven't convinced me how Iago and Hans are better than Berkut in any meaningful way. Let me enjoy Berkut without acting like he's literally worse than Iago and Hans.

This is a great way of putting it.

1 hour ago, eclipse said:

And it's not our job.

I have absolutely no issue with you liking Berkut more than Hans and Iago. I'm sure the majority of people probably do and I can understand why. He's more charismatic with a more appealing design, better voice acting and some (seemingly) weighty moments to his name. It's just personally I don't value those things as much as I value plot relevance and intercharacter dynamics, so I think Hans and Iago are, relatively, better. But it's fine that we both like different things. I have no reason nor intention to change your mind, and you shouldn't have much reason or intention to change my mind. But we can both voice our opinions so that we can better understand each other.