Crests Did Nothing Wrong

[Jotari]

So in all routes of the game, mostly from the supports but a bit from the plot, there is a latent anti crests theme going on. In universe characters of any alignment are of the opinion that crests are damaging to their society. And for the most part this idea is left completely unchallenged by the game. Well I'm going to challenge it. The problems most characters blame on crests are

-Class division

-Forced marriages

-Inheritance rights

-Pigeon holed life goals

-Horrible experiments

 

First up, Class Division. On the surface this looks like the strongest argument against crests but with any sort of examination it proves to be the weakest. Because the class division created by the crests is nothing compared to the class division actually created by the people. Namely the fact that there is a literal class division between noble and commoner. And even among the nobles there are many houses that are just as powerful as those that have crests. The crests are not creating a class division, the people are by having a society divided into class. You might say that the crests are assisting in this, but they're actually not really. Class divisions are something that exists in basically every society in the world and compared to actual medieval society, the class division seems to be much lower in Fodlan expressed at least by the fact that commoners and nobles are not immediately divided when it comes to education.

Next forced marriages. This is one that seems obviously to blame on crests because everyone wants to have crest babies. And in universe it seems obvious to blame it on crests. But, again, this is something that happens in real life too, especially in medieval settings. We even have examples of it in Fire Emblem itself. Astrid springs to mind. Arranged marriages that the participants have little choice in is a standard trope, I'd even go as far as to say cliche, in any medieval setting with or without magic boosting blood lines. Because of the aforementioned class division and the politicking that results from it.

Inheritance rights. Now this one has some form of justification for it. Miklan is the only character in the game who's suffering is resulted from a society that values crests. Only, when we consider it, primogeniture is just as arbitrary as inheritance based on crest. The only thing that sucks here is that they want to have both primogeniture and crest based inheritance simultaneously which leads to someone being promised something and then denied it. Inheriting based on crest makes more sense than simply giving everything to the eldest living (male) child as it works as a DNA test and because crests do have some actual inherent value.

Pigeon holed life goals. Something I don't think is brought up much in the game in regards to crests, but a world without it seems to be what Edelgard is mostly fighting in favor for. To which I just point to Ignatz, the person in the game whose supports most revolve around him not being able to pursue his desire and a character which has nothing to do with a crest. People being forced to live the life their parents choose for them has nothing to do with magically imbued super powers, it's something everyone just has to deal with because certain parents and certain cultures (like a typical medieval one) can be restrictive in life paths.

Horrible experiments is the last thing and it's the one that is most obviously wrong. But therein lies the problem. It's obviously wrong and should be illegal. Regardless of what system society has in place. But those kind of experiments will happen because there is an inherent, tangible, value in crests. While the Seven in the Empire allowed the experimentation to take place to have a crest bearing emperor, neither of the experimentation examples we have were actually performed because of societies make up.  One set (the Agarthans) was performed to try and breed super soldiers (more powerful weapons being something society is always going to want outside of a utopia) and the other (Rhea's) was to resurrect the goddess. While both were sanctioned by the ruling powers of their region, both were kept secret doing such things to people is obviously wrong. It's not something their societies are condoning or supporting. If they were then the Seven and Rhea would have been open about their immoral experimentation with crests.

 

So basically all the issues with Crests come down less to do with crests and more just to do with feudalism. All the issues (except the experimentation which would happen regardless of the society and would be viewed as criminal) would exist anyway in a feudal society, the kind of society all Fire Emblem games present as a default. All of these complaints (again with the exception of the last one), while not examined in each game, would logically be present in every game (or, like, A Song of Ice and Fire which as a series designed to show the brutality of feudalism has them all in spades). I believe crests were designed to be a sort of metaphor for feudalism itself to try and criticize it. By making it something that is identifiable we can enhance the aspects of it. But it kind of breaks down  because in doing so you also give crest a tangible value. In real life people believing they're divinely or genetically more entitled to be superior to others is silly, but when it comes to a universe where that perceived entitlement comes from being able to actually provide more use to society. When the lord is the only one who can use the Lance of Ruin to defend against invaders then there is some more inherent sense than in the identical scenario where the lord is the lord just because their family traditionally has been. Couple that with the fact that many aspects of Fodlan's society seem far tamer than actual feudalism in many parts of the world and suddenly the metaphor breaks down altogether and all you have is a bunch of people complaining about their lot in life without realizing that without crests their society would probably be structured much the same. Rather than show the faults of feudalism, it makes it more justified. The crests would have been much better served if they provided no advantage and were merely a symbol on the body. Then it would be a visual representation of the blue blood nobels value without ever actually meaning anything practical. But of course this is a video game and we gots to have those holy weapons to use.

 

This is not a thread designed to argue for or against Edelgard/Rhea/Dimitri (though I'm sure it'll devolve into that anyway). It's about the role of crests in society and how they work or don't work as  a narrative device in the way they're presented.

Edited April 9, 2020 by Jotari

[eclipse]

Crests do two things:

1. They confer some sort of power, something that makes the bearer different from others
2. They're visible IIRC

It's a convenient excuse to separate people, except that it's justified because of the first reason.  In other words, it's just human nature at work, but with something that doesn't exist in the real world (we have race and religion for that nonsense).

[Jotari]

17 minutes ago, eclipse said:

(we have race and religion for that nonsense).

And money, more than anything else, money (which can effectively do your point 1 too).

[Darkmoon6789]

I would say that the crests themselves are incidental, they are just another sign of nobility and the way the nobles justify their superiority. But it is the nobility system itself that is the problem, feudalism is the cause of the class division, the arranged marriages, and the forced expectations, it is usually what it comes down to when dealing with systems of royalty and nobility. We had these very same things in our world without crests being a factor. 

Which is why, in regard didn't simply just try to remove the importance society placed on crests, she wanted to remove the nobility system itself and even change a feudal system into something different. Whatever she might say, it really isn't just about the crests and I think Edelgard on some level understands that. Considering she seeks to change way more than just the crests.

Is there even anything at all about points to not being still around after the ending of crimson flower? I think all evidence points to them still being around, there is just less importance placed on them as they no longer determines your rank in society. But may still provide an advantage in certain roles. 

Crests really aren't anything more than superpowers inherited by certain bloodlines. One thing I have been thinking about. If the Dragon signs from new game+ actually existed in universe, they would render crests obsolete as anyone with the Grim Dragon sign could gain the crest of Blaiddyd and superstrength. Negating what makes that bloodlines so special. I wonder if Hanneman could actually make these in the future.

But there is one thing that makes me uncomfortable about the nature of crests, they are technically product of a genocide side and very dark magic by the Agarthans. Meaning they have a very dark origin, same with relics. I am not sure I would be comfortable with swinging around the remains of sentient creatures. I might deem them evil in nature. For the same reason making furniture out of human remains is evil. I have no idea why Rhea tolerated their use. Considering relics are made out of the remains of her people, she should be especially disgusted with someone swinging around the corpse of her dead mother. 

Edited April 7, 2020 by Darkmoon6789

[vanguard333]

5 hours ago, Jotari said:

Pigeon holed life goals. Something I don't think is brought up much in the game in regards to crests, but it seems to be what Edelgard is mostly fighting in favor for. To which I just point to Ignatz, the person in the game whose supports most revolve around him not being able to pursue his desire and a character which has nothing to do with a crest. People being forced to live the life their parents choose for them has nothing to do with magically imbued super powers, it's something everyone just has to deal with because certain parents and certain cultures (like a typical medieval one) can be restrictive in life paths.

Actually, Edelgard isn't in favour of it, at least not in the case of someone like Ignatz. Ignatz's skills and desire is painting, and Edelgard wants people to be able to pursue what they want to do and are skilled at doing. She would hear his story and try to find a way to make it so that Ignatz could fulfill his dream and financially support his parents, such as appointing him as the Imperial Painter or something like that. 

 

1 minute ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

But there is one thing that makes me uncomfortable about the nature of crests, they are technically product of a genocide side and very dark magic by the Agarthans. Meaning they have a very dark origin, same with relics. I am not sure I would be comfortable with swinging around the remains of sentient creatures. I might deem them evil in nature. For the same reason making furniture out of human remains is evil. I have no idea why Rhea tolerated their use. Considering relics are made out of the remains of her people, she should be especially disgusted with someone swinging around the corpse of her dead mother. 

I'm pretty sure she is disgusted with it; she can't see what else do with them since people remember the 10 Elites and their Relics. If she locked them away in a hole underground somewhere, people would naturally try to look for them, and if they did find them, then that would be disastrous (as we saw when Miklan stole a Relic). 

The only person she tolerates using the corpse of her dead mother is the very person that she hopes will become the vessel for her dead mother. 

[Darkmoon6789]

7 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

Actually, Edelgard isn't in favour of it, at least not in the case of someone like Ignatz. Ignatz's skills and desire is painting, and Edelgard wants people to be able to pursue what they want to do and are skilled at doing. She would hear his story and try to find a way to make it so that Ignatz could fulfill his dream and financially support his parents, such as appointing him as the Imperial Painter or something like that. 

 

I'm pretty sure she is disgusted with it; she can't see what else do with them since people remember the 10 Elites and their Relics. If she locked them away in a hole underground somewhere, people would naturally try to look for them, and if they did find them, then that would be disastrous (as we saw when Miklan stole a Relic). 

The only person she tolerates using the corpse of her dead mother is the very person that she hopes will become the vessel for her dead mother. 

One thing I really like with Edelgard, she would essentially just let everyone do what they are good at and wants to do with their life.

Which reminds me, does Edelgard even know the true nature of crests and their relics? I could be wrong but I don't think she ever found out. To her crest stones were just a source of power, she might have saw her actions at the holy tomb differently if she knew what crest stones were, to her they were just a stockpile of weapons. To Rhea, they were the remains of her dead people, so to her Edelgard's actions would be graverobbing. I know it is called the holy tomb, but I think Edelgard just thought the name was a smokescreen for a weapon stockpile. 

I wonder if everyone in Fodlan would be as eager to use relics if they knew what they actually were and how they came to be. There even seemed to be some signs that crest stones contain the souls of departed dragons, given what happened with Byleth when they got to be crest stone of Sothis placed within their heart. Seems like they might house the consciousness of the original Dragon to some extent. I wonder if the reason they transform you into a beast is because they get possessed by the spirit of the Dragon in this stone and they transform into something resembling the original form of the spirit, but in a corrupted state because of the hatred, the spirit has for the people that killed it. I have noticed how many of the signs there are that crest stones give you draconic traits. Even Hegemon Edelgard , which is otherwise the most human of the beast transformations still have glowing eyes that I noticed are identical to the ones of the immaculate one, but red instead of yellow. So, she is like a dragon human hybrid in that form. 

[Jotari]

48 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

Actually, Edelgard isn't in favour of it, at least not in the case of someone like Ignatz. Ignatz's skills and desire is painting, and Edelgard wants people to be able to pursue what they want to do and are skilled at doing. She would hear his story and try to find a way to make it so that Ignatz could fulfill his dream and financially support his parents, such as appointing him as the Imperial Painter or something like that. 

 

I'm pretty sure she is disgusted with it; she can't see what else do with them since people remember the 10 Elites and their Relics. If she locked them away in a hole underground somewhere, people would naturally try to look for them, and if they did find them, then that would be disastrous (as we saw when Miklan stole a Relic). 

The only person she tolerates using the corpse of her dead mother is the very person that she hopes will become the vessel for her dead mother. 

Yeah I meant the opposite of what I wrote. That not many people talk about this as an issue in game but it seems to be what Edelgard is fighting against. I can see how the way I worded it suggested the opposite. The central point though is that these are issues Ignatz, without a crest, faces, because the inherent source of conflict here isn't something to do with crests, crests are just a way in which it manifests.

55 minutes ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

I would say that the crests themselves are incidental, they are just another sign of nobility and the way the nobles justify their superiority. But it is the nobility system itself that is the problem, feudalism is the cause of the class division, the arranged marriages, and the forced expectations, it is usually what it comes down to when dealing with systems of royalty and nobility. We had these very same things in our world without crests being a factor. 

Which is why, in regard didn't simply just try to remove the importance society placed on crests, she wanted to remove the nobility system itself and even change a feudal system into something different. Whatever she might say, it really isn't just about the crests and I think Edelgard on some level understands that. Considering she seeks to change way more than just the crests.

Is there even anything at all about points to not being still around after the ending of crimson flower? I think all evidence points to them still being around, there is just less importance placed on them as they no longer determines your rank in society. But may still provide an advantage in certain roles. 

Crests really aren't anything more than superpowers inherited by certain bloodlines. One thing I have been thinking about. If the Dragon signs from new game+ actually existed in universe, they would render crests obsolete as anyone with the Grim Dragon sign could gain the crest of Blaiddyd and superstrength. Negating what makes that bloodlines so special. I wonder if Hanneman could actually make these in the future.

But there is one thing that makes me uncomfortable about the nature of crests, they are technically product of a genocide side and very dark magic by the Agarthans. Meaning they have a very dark origin, same with relics. I am not sure I would be comfortable with swinging around the remains of sentient creatures. I might deem them evil in nature. For the same reason making furniture out of human remains is evil. I have no idea why Rhea tolerated their use. Considering relics are made out of the remains of her people, she should be especially disgusted with someone swinging around the corpse of her dead mother. 

Despite Edelgard's desires crests would still be very much important in her society, because they do allow people to do things just plain better than other people. Some could conceivably be born with a crest and have no desire to be a soldier though, which in Edelgard's system would be nominally allowed. They just have to hope that in such a situation anyone who is around to wield that specific relic doesn't live in a time when it's necessary to do so. While it probably wouldn't be a legal compulsion, there'd be a lot of social pressure for people with crests to wield their relics in Edelgard's system too, due to the fact that it does provide actual advantages that can't be replicated. Well, can't be replicated without literally replicating it with Hanneman's research. The ability to grant and take away crests is the only way they won't be valued by society (well either that or grow out of never needing conflict entirely).

Edited April 7, 2020 by Jotari

[Darkmoon6789]

6 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Yeah I meant the opposite of what I wrote. That not many people talk about this as an issue in game but it seems to be what Edelgard is fighting against. I can see how the way I worded it suggested the opposite. The central point though is that these are issues Ignatz, without a crest, faces, because the inherent source of conflict here isn't something to do with crests, crests are just a way in which it manifests.

Despite Edelgard's desires crests would still be very much important in her society, because they do allow people to do things just plain better than other people. Some could conceivably be born with a crest and have no desire to be a soldier though, which in Edelgard's system would be nominally allowed. They just have to hope that in such a situation anyone who is around to wield that specific relic doesn't live in a time when it's necessary to do so. While it probably wouldn't be a legal compulsion, there'd be a lot of social pressure for people with crests to wield their relics in Edelgard's system too, due to the fact that it does provide actual advantages that can't be replicated. Well, can't be replicated without literally replicating it without Hanneman's research. The ability to grant and take away crests is the only way they won't be valued by society (well either that or grow out of never needing conflict entirely).

So you are suggesting that what Edelgard is fighting against his people being forced into certain occupations based on what family they were born into? Yep, checks out as being forced into a certain role based on the circumstances of your birth is exactly what it means to be born into a noble family. Or born as a commoner for that matter. It also seems like Edelgard herself feels like she is forced to perform a specific duty due to being born into the Hresvelg family. She has expressed wishes that she wants to be literally anyone else but who she is. Of course this is just one of many things she is fighting against.

And yes, crests will still exist in Edelgard society, but she dealt with what actually matters. The nobility system and feudalism (assuming Edelgard's society would not also count as feudal). Social expectations might still exist as you say, especially after Edelgard's death, where she is no longer around to veto violations of individual freedoms like that. There will obviously always be some conflict, but hopefully there will be a while until the next continental war. I am also certain that there will be a tyrannical emperor by some point, which would lead to a rebellion. Someone will make a bad decision with their successor sooner or later. A key to prevent this might be to give the common people a way to fight back, maybe with the relic like weapons that wouldn't require crests that Hanneman said he could make.   

Edelgard is also a guaranteed to outlaw blood reconstruction surgery, if it isn't illegal already, it is a pretty personal issue for her. I also wouldn't allow the use of relics. If I were her except in dire circumstances because of their dark nature, need to show some level of respect to the Nabateans. But I am uncertain if Edelgard even knows they are made of the bones of sentient creatures. 

Would most crests even be all that useful outside of warfare? 

[Jotari]

1 minute ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

Would most crests even be all that useful outside of warfare? 

From what we can garner from gameplay, some of them conserve white magic usage which probably means those particular crest wielders are more effective at healing arts which is always going to be a plus. I suppose super strength would also have its uses in construction. Though probably not enough to really make that big a different in the large scope of things.

[vanguard333]

55 minutes ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

One thing I really like with Edelgard, she would essentially just let everyone do what they are good at and wants to do with their life.

Which reminds me, does Edelgard even know the true nature of crests and their relics? I could be wrong but I don't think she ever found out. To her crest stones were just a source of power, she might have saw her actions at the holy tomb differently if she knew what crest stones were, to her they were just a stockpile of weapons. To Rhea, they were the remains of her dead people, so to her Edelgard's actions would be graverobbing. I know it is called the holy tomb, but I think Edelgard just thought the name was a smokescreen for a weapon stockpile. 

No; Edelgard has no idea about the true nature of the Relics and Crests. She knows they weren't gifts from the goddess and that the Relics were handmade, but that's all she knows, because that's all Emperor Wilheim knew. The "Truth of Fodlan's History" that Edelgard tells Byleth is true: the Relics were manmade, and the war between Rhea and Nemesis was personal rather than holy. But it's obviously missing key details.

My guess is that, as much as Rhea valued Wlheim, she couldn't open up to him, so she left him in the dark about the Red Canyon and the Relics. I also think that the incomplete story was passed down not out of mistrust of Rhea, but in the hopes that a descendant could find out the full story of what happened. 

 

31 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Yeah I meant the opposite of what I wrote. That not many people talk about this as an issue in game but it seems to be what Edelgard is fighting against. I can see how the way I worded it suggested the opposite. The central point though is that these are issues Ignatz, without a crest, faces, because the inherent source of conflict here isn't something to do with crests, crests are just a way in which it manifests.

Ah; okay. I understand. That is true, but it is issues that Ignatz faces as a result of being part of a struggling merchant family in a Feudal society, and that Feudal society was born from Crest-Wielders laying claim to areas of Fodlan and is perpetuated by the fixation on Crests. Edelgard wants to uproot that Feudal system. 

Edited April 7, 2020 by vanguard333

[Silver-Haired Maiden]

Crests themselves are not the problem. The problem is human nature, wanting to use any excuse they can get to elevate themselves to a position of status and power above other people. Crests are just the tools they used to do that. Of course that mindset is never going to change, they'll just find different ways of putting themselves over other people once crests are no longer an option to do so.

As for the Edelgard knowing about them discussion, no she doesn't know the truth about them. Seteth, Flayn, and Rhea (plus the remaining saints) are the only ones who do outside of Byleth and Claude in VW and Edelgard very much burned those bridges, causing that knowledge to be lost to history in CF.

[Darkmoon6789]

8 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

No; Edelgard has no idea about the true nature of the Relics and Crests. She knows they weren't gifts from the goddess and that the Relics were handmade, but that's all she knows, because that's all Emperor Wilheim knew. The "Truth of Fodlan's History" that Edelgard tells Byleth is true: the Relics were manmade, and the war between Rhea and Nemesis was personal rather than holy. But it's obviously missing key details.

My guess is that, as much as Rhea valued Wlheim, she couldn't open up to him, so she left him in the dark about the Red Canyon and the Relics. I also think that the incomplete story was passed down not out of mistrust of Rhea, but in the hopes that a descendant could find out the full story of what happened. 

 

Ah; okay. I understand. That is true, but it is issues that Ignatz faces as a result of being part of a struggling merchant family in a Feudal society, and that Feudal society was born from Crest-Wielders laying claim to areas of Fodlan and is perpetuated by the fixation on Crests. Edelgard wants to uproot that Feudal system. 

I thought so, Edelgard does have a few misconceptions based on incomplete information, like how she believes that Byleth is one of the children of the goddess.

 

7 minutes ago, Silver-Haired Maiden said:

Crests themselves are not the problem. The problem is human nature, wanting to use any excuse they can get to elevate themselves to a position of status and power above other people. Crests are just the tools they used to do that. Of course that mindset is never going to change, they'll just find different ways of putting themselves over other people once crests are no longer an option to do so.

As for the Edelgard knowing about them discussion, no she doesn't know the truth about them. Seteth, Flayn, and Rhea (plus the remaining saints) are the only ones who do outside of Byleth and Claude in VW and Edelgard very much burned those bridges, causing that knowledge to be lost to history in CF.

It is uncertain if it will be included in history, but the knowledge is still out there because Seteth and Flayn survives. But it all kind of depends if either of them will ever be on good terms with the empire. Maybe Flayn, I have a hard time imagining Seteth would forgive that easily. I don't think Edelgard would be overtly hostile to either of them as long as they don't try to interfere. Even if either would not be trusted with any political power. For some reason I am imagining that Flayn would live for many centuries and become kind of of this travelling healer. 

Yes, I usually assume that if someone can survive a route, they do. I don't personally like killing anyone more than necessary anyway, which is why Seteth, Flayn, Claude and Lysithea were spared. I kind of forgot who else was sparable. I also like the idea of people like Claude or Flayn actually getting along with Edelgard in the future. Byleth is also still around, which could help matters. With this in mind, is it impossible that there will be a time where Flayn will recount the truth? If either survivor felt like it, they could also record the truth in a book somewhere, even if they remain hateful of the Empire for the rest of their lives. Depending if they would want the truth to die with them or not. 

[Moltz23]

Crests by itself are not inherently right or wrong, but it's human nature 101 to exploit anything lacking active regulation of any sort for their own ends, which is more or less the issue the game has with them. In that regard, I think Edelgard had the right call of devaluing them and punish their abuse.

 

As for whether that's enough excuse to set the world of fire though, that's up for each person to decide.

Edited April 7, 2020 by Moltz23

[Silver-Haired Maiden]

27 minutes ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

It is uncertain if it will be included in history, but the knowledge is still out there because Seteth and Flayn survives. But it all kind of depends if either of them will ever be on good terms with the empire. Maybe Flayn, I have a hard time imagining Seteth would forgive that easily. I don't think Edelgard would be overtly hostile to either of them as long as they don't try to interfere. Even if either would not be trusted with any political power. For some reason I am imagining that Flayn would live for many centuries and become kind of of this travelling healer. 

Yes, I usually assume that if someone can survive a route, they do. I don't personally like killing anyone more than necessary anyway, which is why Seteth, Flayn, Claude and Lysithea were spared. I kind of forgot who else was sparable. I also like the idea of people like Claude or Flayn actually getting along with Edelgard in the future. Byleth is also still around, which could help matters. With this in mind, is it impossible that there will be a time where Flayn will recount the truth? If either survivor felt like it, they could also record the truth in a book somewhere, even if they remain hateful of the Empire for the rest of their lives. Depending if they would want the truth to die with them or not. 

Whether they live or not is subjective to the player and not something you can argue as fact based on your own play-through. Once you do it moves into head canon and not actual canon territory and unless it's explicitly a head canon discussion thread, you usually want to stick to what is canon.

Assuming Flayn and Seteth do live, we don't actually know what they'll do as Crimson Flower doesn't give us their endings. We can extrapolate based on their other endings that, if they survive, they wander for a long time. Perhaps they'll eventually come back, but we can never be sure if they'll tell anyone the truth or stay hidden so that the remainders of their people won't entirely die off.

[Benice]

3 minutes ago, Silver-Haired Maiden said:

Assuming Flayn and Seteth do live, we don't actually know what they'll do as Crimson Flower doesn't give us their endings.

I thought that it was explained that Seteth and/or Flayn are going to die from their wounds shortly after the battle? Maybe that's a different route I'm getting confused with

[Silver-Haired Maiden]

Just now, Benice said:

I thought that it was explained that Seteth and/or Flayn are going to die from their wounds shortly after the battle? Maybe that's a different route I'm getting confused with

I certainly don't remember reading that, but it's been a bit since I played CF so I could just not remember it lol.

[vanguard333]

4 minutes ago, Benice said:

I thought that it was explained that Seteth and/or Flayn are going to die from their wounds shortly after the battle? Maybe that's a different route I'm getting confused with

I think you're getting confused with something else. Seteth and Flayn usually die during the battle in Crimson Flower, but they can be spared if you beat Flayn with Byleth, then beat Seteth with Byleth, in which case, they flee and go into hiding. 

[Darkmoon6789]

5 minutes ago, Silver-Haired Maiden said:

Whether they live or not is subjective to the player and not something you can argue as fact based on your own play-through. Once you do it moves into head canon and not actual canon territory and unless it's explicitly a head canon discussion thread, you usually want to stick to what is canon.

Assuming Flayn and Seteth do live, we don't actually know what they'll do as Crimson Flower doesn't give us their endings. We can extrapolate based on their other endings that, if they survive, they wander for a long time. Perhaps they'll eventually come back, but we can never be sure if they'll tell anyone the truth or stay hidden so that the remainders of their people won't entirely die off.

But we shouldn't assume that they were killed off either, this game does have enough variations depending on who survive and who doesn't to warrant speculation when it comes to how the future will be like. I do need to make one assumption or the other when it comes to who survive or not

 

4 minutes ago, Benice said:

I thought that it was explained that Seteth and/or Flayn are going to die from their wounds shortly after the battle? Maybe that's a different route I'm getting confused with

I never remember seeing that mentioned at all, would kind of make sparing them quite pointless if true. Where would that even be mentioned as neither actually has an epilogue? I think the last we hear from Seteth is the letter he sends Rhea. Where he says that he will go into exile, together with Flayn. 

[Benice]

Okay, I guess I misremembered. Sorry about derailing the thread.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Crests (or rather society's fixation on them) is absolutely problematic. Yes, all the problems they create are problems we humans created with our own societies, particularly feudalism. The problem is that crests cause feudalism to become entrenched, because they prove it "objectively" correct: crest-bearing families are just superior, right? FE3H is a world that has apparently seen minimal social progress in over a millennium, and it's hard for me to conclude anything but that the crests are to blame.

[omegaxis1]

3 hours ago, Silver-Haired Maiden said:

Crests themselves are not the problem. The problem is human nature, wanting to use any excuse they can get to elevate themselves to a position of status and power above other people. Crests are just the tools they used to do that. Of course that mindset is never going to change, they'll just find different ways of putting themselves over other people once crests are no longer an option to do so.

As for the Edelgard knowing about them discussion, no she doesn't know the truth about them. Seteth, Flayn, and Rhea (plus the remaining saints) are the only ones who do outside of Byleth and Claude in VW and Edelgard very much burned those bridges, causing that knowledge to be lost to history in CF.

While it is true that people will always end up seeking to find new ways to hold power, the problem with Crests is that it's an "objective" form of holding power. Just by being BORN with a Crest gives one the ability to have political power and influence. 

I mean, how can you argue against Crests giving you the right to rule over people, when the Church instills a faith in you that the Crests are objects of worship by the goddess? 

[Yexin]

7 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

While it is true that people will always end up seeking to find new ways to hold power, the problem with Crests is that it's an "objective" form of holding power. Just by being BORN with a Crest gives one the ability to have political power and influence. 

I mean, how can you argue against Crests giving you the right to rule over people, when the Church instills a faith in you that the Crests are objects of worship by the goddess? 

"with great powers comes great responsibility"

crests grant their bearers power over those who don't have one, that's for sure, but it's up to crest bearers to decide what to do with them, crests don't automatically make their bearers go crazy nor anything like that

for me, people are to blame, not crests

[omegaxis1]

2 minutes ago, Yexin said:

"with great powers comes great responsibility"

crests grant their bearers power over those who don't have one, that's for sure, but it's up to crest bearers to decide what to do with them, crests don't automatically make their bearers go crazy nor anything like that

for me, people are to blame, not crests

Thanks for using the quote I use on Rhea. As someone that was the archbishop, that instills the teachings of Seiros onto people, it's her responsibility to make sure that people don't abuse it. I mean, she's been around for over a thousand years. You can't expect me to believe that she was never aware of the problems.

There's a cause and effect on everything. Rhea instilled it, and people began to abuse it. And despite being aware of it, Rhea did nothing to correct it, allowing it to escalate to incredible levels. 

If you can blame people for abusing it, you oughta also blame Rhea for never trying to stop it. 

Here's another quote that I like using, from Einstein:

Quote

The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it.

Being humans means it's obvious to expect some people to become corrupt and evil. But if you have the power to actually change things, and you do nothing to stop it, you're just as much the reason the problems are there. 

You could have stopped it, but you chose to do nothing.

[Yexin]

57 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Thanks for using the quote I use on Rhea. As someone that was the archbishop, that instills the teachings of Seiros onto people, it's her responsibility to make sure that people don't abuse it. I mean, she's been around for over a thousand years. You can't expect me to believe that she was never aware of the problems.

There's a cause and effect on everything. Rhea instilled it, and people began to abuse it. And despite being aware of it, Rhea did nothing to correct it, allowing it to escalate to incredible levels. 

If you can blame people for abusing it, you oughta also blame Rhea for never trying to stop it. 

well then this same logic could be applied to every other power-holding character in 3H, but that wouldn't make a great argument at all, since we're talking about how crest affected Fodlan's society, not how they were created (which, by the way, wasn't even by Rhea's will)

also, humans originally created weapons to hunt and defend themselves from wild beasts, but this eventually led to the stupidly huge amount of atrocious weapons whose only purpose is to kill other humans we have today: does this mean that hunters are to blame for having created weapons?
while you could say "no, but modern humans could've put a stop to their spreading and development, yet they haven't so it's their fault", you'd just prove my point to be correct: it doesn't matter how something was created, what matters is how people choose to use what they've been entrusted with, but it's our nature to try to gain more power than others the first chance we're given

57 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Here's another quote that I like using, from Einstein:

Quote

The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it.

Being humans means it's obvious to expect some people to become corrupt and evil. But if you have the power to actually change things, and you do nothing to stop it, you're just as much the reason the problems are there. 

You could have stopped it, but you chose to do nothing.

that's your opinion and i respect it, although i don't agree with it
and again, this has nothing to do with what we're talking about

Edited April 7, 2020 by Yexin

[omegaxis1]

16 minutes ago, Yexin said:

well then this same logic could be applied to every other power-holding character in 3H, but that wouldn't make a great argument at all, since we're talking about how crest affected Fodlan's society, not how they were created (which, by the way, wasn't even by Rhea's will)
also, humans oriinally created weapons to hunt and defend themselves from wild beasts, but this eventually led to the stupidly huge amount of atrocious weapons whose only purpose is to kill other humans we have today: does this mean that hunters are to blame for having created weapons?
while you could say "no, but modern humans could've put a stop to their spreading and development, yet they haven't so it's their fault", you'd just prove my point to be correct: it doesn't matter how something was created, what matters is how people choose to use what they've been entrusted with, but it's our nature to try to gain more power than others the first chance we're given

that's your opinion and i respect it, although i don't agree with it
and again, this has nothing to do with what we're talking about

You aren't understanding something.

Unlike mortals, Rhea is basically immortal. Humans die, and then that's it. You can't do anything more. 

Rhea isn't bound by that. She has longevity. And she's in a position of power that has influence on the entire continent. She's been the archbishop for over 1100 years. So she's been in a position to have intervened the entire time. In the course of 1100 years, she had EVERY chance to try and improve and/or fix things. 

Had Rhea actually tried to improve things much earlier, humans would never have become so dependent on Crests.