Real-World Mythology/References in 3H

[haarhaarhaar]

Was having a look at my old VW endgame save file (it's been a while since I played it) and I originally had a couple of questions about the in-game lore behind sacred weapons, but while I was looking into that stuff (might still make a thread on that) I got into an internet hole researching the real-world lore behind the weapons, so decided to stick on the forums what I found. I don't think there's been a thread with all the mythological references going on in Three Houses, so am gonna start one now!

I'll begin with Irish mythology, where most of the sacred weapons come from  - FE titles have used a ton of Irish mythology before, though obviously I am gonna limit myself to 3H-related stuff here.

The Tuatha de Danann (who are settlers from abroad) fight two wars in the Irish saga poetry of the Cath Maighe Tuireadh (Battle of Maighe Tuireadh). A Fomorian leader, Conand, who lived in a tower (Conand Tower) oppressed their ancestors, the Nemidians. The Nemidians also gave birth to the native Irish Fir Bolg, whose chief warrior is called Sreng (Sreng, a territory of 'savage natives' north of Faerghus), and who the Tuatha de Danann fight their first war against. Their second war is against the Fomorians, who are originally led by Ciocal, also called Cichol (Cichol, one of the Four Saints). Before the second war the god Dagda (Dagda, a fierce military power across the sea from Fodlan) is forced by three of the Fomorian kings, one of whom is Indech (Indech, one of the Four Saints) to build forts for them. Dagda's children include Brigid (Brigid, an island nation between Dagda and Adrestia), Aengus and Cermait.

The second war commences between the Fomorian leader Balor and the Irish hero and leader of the Tuatha De Danann, Lugh. Lugh's foster mother was a goddess called Tailtiu, who gave her name to the site of her burial, Tailteann (Tailteann Plains). He was said to have wielded the Gae Assal (Spear of Assal). There is a weaker argument that this spear was the same as, or Lugh also wielded, the Luin of Celtchar (Luin). The spear Luin is thought to be a spear Lugh demands as payment in the story The Fate of the Children of Tureann - but the spear in that story is literally called Areadbhair (Areadbhar), and that story also names Lugh's magical horse as Aenbharr (Enbarr, capital of Adrestia). Lugh eventually wins the war by blinding his grandfather, Balor with a slingshot, that had special ammunition described as tathlum (Tathlum Bow). However Dagda was later killed by Balor's wife, Cethlenn (Cethleann, one of the Four Saints).

Comparative mythology links Lugh's origins with Hermes', whose symbol/staff is the Caduceus (Caduceus Staff). Lugh later killed Dagda's son Cermait for sleeping with one of his wives, and was in turn slain by his three sons, one of whom is Mac Cuill (Macuil, one of the Four Saints). One of Dagda's other sons Aengus wields the sword Moralltach (Sword of Moralta) given to him by the same god that gave Lugh Gae Assal. He gives this sword to his foster son Diarmuid Ua Duibhne, as well as another sword, Beagalltach (Sword of Begalta). Diarmuid is famous for the tragic love story of Diarmuid and Grainne, an Irish parallel to Tristan and Iseult (Isolde). Tristan's bow is called Fail-not (Failnaught). 

In a different cycle of Irish mythology, Conchobar becomes king of Ulster by his mother tricking the then-king of Ulster, Fearghus Mac Roich (Faerghus), Fearghus literally meaning strength or virility. In Conchobar's halls lies first in his storehouse the shield called Ochain (Ochain Shield).

Incidentally Garreg Mach means something like Plains of Stone in Gaelic, although it's more likely to be Welsh for Little Stone Monastery - see https://curatedcritiques.wordpress.com/2019/08/14/the-welsh-language-in-fire-emblem-three-houses/ for a cool analysis of some Welsh influences in the game.

For non-Irish sacred weapons, Wikipedia claims the Finnish god Ukko (roughly analogous to Thor) wields a hammer, like Mjolnir, called Ukonvasara (Axe of Ukonvasara). The Seiros Shield itself has no mythological referents, it's just extended from the name Seiros which (as I think has been said elsewhere on this forum) is an evolution of the Ancient Greek word σειριος for Sirius, the Dog-Star (which is also tied to Sothis, and is a plot point in the game).

The Inexhaustible has given me a lot of trouble - the only relevant mythological item I can think of is the Pandava prince Arjuna's inexhaustible quivers the Akshaya Tarkash (literally Sanskrit for inexhaustible quivers), but there's no bow called The Inexhaustible or something equivalent that I can think of.

Anyway that's all the sacred weapons and a few other bits and pieces - join in the comments with everything else!!

Edited April 12, 2020 by haarhaarhaar

[vanguard333]

4 hours ago, haarhaarhaar said:

Incidentally Garreg Mach means something like Plains of Stone in Gaelic, although it's more likely to be Welsh for Little Stone Monastery - see https://curatedcritiques.wordpress.com/2019/08/14/the-welsh-language-in-fire-emblem-three-houses/ for a cool analysis of some Welsh influences in the game.

Funny enough, another Welsh myth reference, though I think it might be accidental, can be found in Edelgard and Rhea. In part 2, Edelgard wears red armour and a crown of horns meant to resemble dragon horns, while Rhea turns into a white dragon.Welsh Folklore contains multiple legends about two dragons locked in combat: one red, one white. The red dragon represented the Britons, while the white dragon represented the invading Saxon clans.

So, the imagery is there, but it's hard to extract meaning from it since Edelgard, the red dragon, is technically the invader, which is the reason I think the reference is accidental. 

Edited April 13, 2020 by vanguard333

[Espurrhoodie]

I believe Sothis's name comes from the Greek pronounciation of the name of the Egyptian goddess Sopdet, who was a manifestation of the star Sirius.

[lenticular]

A few more: Lugh (who you mention) is likely the name origin for Loog, the founder of the Kingdom of Faerghus. Teutates was a Celtic god in the real world and is a lake in Three Houses. Ailell, the Valley of Torment, is probably named for Ailill, an Irish name shared by several legendary figures. Seteth's name is probably derived from Setet, another character from Egyptian mythology who is also linked with Sopdet/Sothis/Sirius. Rhea was a titan in Greek mythology, as well as mother of the gods. Nemesis was also from Greek myth. Aegis was a shield belonging to Zeus before it was a shield belonging to House Fraldarius. Galatea is a great house in the game and is also the name of several figures from Greek myth, most notably a statue who came to life. Shambhala (the Slitherer city) is named for a mythical city from Tibetan Buddhism.

[Darkmoon6789]

I looked into the Agarthans and it turns out that there is some actual mythological city that is supposed to exist underground called Agartha, it plays once known to have them in an enlightened place of learning. Located under the Himalayas, but is now said to be infested with Demons. That was very interesting

[haarhaarhaar]

On 4/13/2020 at 2:55 AM, Espurrhoodie said:

I believe Sothis's name comes from the Greek pronounciation of the name of the Egyptian goddess Sopdet, who was a manifestation of the star Sirius

On 4/13/2020 at 3:43 AM, lenticular said:

Seteth's name is probably derived from Setet, another character from Egyptian mythology who is also linked with Sopdet/Sothis/Sirius

I have a feeling we're only just scratching the surface of all the Sirius symbology in 3H - it'd be really interesting to find out all the ways in which that intertwines with the story and the art

On 4/13/2020 at 2:17 AM, vanguard333 said:

The red dragon represented the Britons, while the white dragon represented the invading Saxon clans.

So, the imagery is there, but it's hard to extract meaning from it since Edelgard, the red dragon, is technically the invader, which is the reason I think the reference is accidental.

I'm definitely overthinking this, but since Adrestia originally owned Faerghus, and it was Rhea's support/interference that allowed Faerghus to become independent, it might still work as an image?

 

Also did some research into swords in 3H more generally. Mercurius could just be the Latin name for Mercury (which might explain the 3H flavour text saying it has high hit rate, although all the Archanea regalia weapons in 3H say that). FE Wiki thinks it's from St Mercurius, whose name has the meaning "wielder of two swords". It's also the name of a powerful demon in a Grimm Brothers fairytale, that gives a cloth to a boy that turns objects silver with one side and heals with the other (less relevance to the sword itself though). 

Zoltan is a Hungarian name that comes from Sultan (perhaps referring to how Zoltan is peerless in his field of smithing).

Thunderbrand's Japanese name simply means thunderclap (but uses the characters for thunder and emperor), and since Foudroyant just means shining that makes sense. But the emperor meaning also ties in a little with Thunderbrand's design, which is based on the blade Shichishito, given to the Empress Jingu. Technically, her title is Imperial Consort, and the characters used are different to the ones in the Japanese name for Thunderbrand, so again not a huge amount to read in there. 

Wo Dao is Chinese for "Chinese sword", and the Japanese name for the weapon simply means "Japanese sword" - am guessing they just wanted to make the sword name show that the sword was of a design considered East Asian.

Blutgang is German for 'Bloodletter', given to the warrior Heime in Teutonic myth by his father Studas, and eventually was broken in battle with Dietrich (there are multiple versions of this myth but Blutgang suffers the same fate in all of them).

Athame is a bastardisation of the Latin artavus, a small knife used to sharpen quills, but now refers to any pagan/Wiccan ceremonial knife.

Ridill was a sword used by Sigurd to cut out the heart of the dwarf Fafnir. It's a weird coincidence that the TWSITD all have weapons that connect to pagan ritualism - Solon possesses the Circe Staff, and Circe was an enchantress in Greek myth famous for turning people into animals. Cornelia is equipped with the Asclepius Staff (Asclepius being a Greek god of healing) although AM Arundel doesn't have any items.

Cursed Ashiya Sword is interesting. The Japanese name is something like "Enchanting Sword Ashura" instead - Ashura/Asura being a class of demigods in Hindu and Buddhist mythology (and a fairly familiar fictional/religious concept in Japan). However, I think Ashiya refers to Asiya, the adoptive mother of Moses in the Qur'an. The Moses story in the Qur'an is fairly similar to the one in the Bible, but in the Qur'an Asiya is the wife of the Pharaoh (not the unnamed daughter as in the Bible) and gets converted to monotheism when Moses returns to Egypt, so is tortured to death by the Pharaoh for it. Most importantly, her name itself means "healer", which would explain why the Cursed Ashiya Sword takes 5 HP per use, it being a cursed form of healing.

 

 

Edited April 15, 2020 by haarhaarhaar

[anikom15]

So it seems like (ca. 16th century)

• Adrestian Empire = Holy Roman Empire
• Holy Kingdom of Faerghus = Moscow/Russia
• Leicester Alliance = Ottoman Empire?

But I can't see how there's much to link them other than aesthetics. The Holy Roman Empire was not much of an empire, wasn't actually related to the Roman Empire, and never owned land controlled by either the Rus or the Ottomans. In that respect the Adrestian Empire is closer to the Byzantine Empire (who were very much NOT German). Edelgard's war strategies were pretty similar to Nazi Germany however. The Reformation started in Germany, which is somewhat analogous to Edelgard's attack against the Church of Seiros.

Faerghus does bear some similarities to Russia. Russia considered itself a sort of 'holy kingdom' as well, and devoted itself to protecting the (Orthodox) church. In real life this church is completely separate from the Germans' church, however.

Leicester Alliance is the one out of left field. The Ottoman Empire was a sultanate, not an 'alliance', although it was more free than the European countries most of the time. Aesthetically there's not much that links the two (the crescent being the main indicator, which can be found in nearly every Turkic or Muslim country), and I only picked the Ottomans because they were the biggest and most successful. The Leicester Alliance, while seeming to be mainly with people who follow the Church of Seiros, doesn't seem to be particularly caring, which is analogous to the Ottomans' policy of religious tolerance (relatively tolerant for the time period).

Edited April 17, 2020 by anikom15

[Lightchao42]

I wonder why the Four Saints all get their names from Irish mythology when Sothis is the Greek form of an Egyptian name. Meanwhile, Seiros and Rhea are both Greek. Since Seiros is an alias and is based on Sirius's namesake, it's plausible that she based it on Sothis's name in-universe. The Ashen Wolf house is named after "the beasts who guard the Blue Sea Star," so it seems that the Blue Sea Star is Fódlan's name for Sirius, especially since Sothis is said to have come from it (Sirius is the "Dog Star" and the brightest star of the constellation Canis Major, so presumably people interpreted the wolf shape as being the star's guardian).

Most Agarthans are named after the Seven Sages of Greece, including Thales, Solon, Myson, Chilon, Bias, and Pittacus. If there was a seventh member, they would probably be named Cleobulus.

Lastly, Byleth and Sitri are named after demons from the Ars Goetia. Notably, Sitri is the twelfth demon listed and Byleth is the thirteenth; in Three Houses, Sitri and Byleth are respectively the 12th and 13th vessels of Sothis. If this naming scheme carried over from the previous vessels, then the first would be named Bael, the second would be Agares, and so on.

[haarhaarhaar]

30 minutes ago, Lightchao42 said:

I wonder why the Four Saints all get their names from Irish mythology when Sothis is the Greek form of an Egyptian name. Meanwhile, Seiros and Rhea are both Greek. Since Seiros is an alias and is based on Sirius's namesake, it's plausible that she based it on Sothis's name in-universe.

I can't remember exactly why I thought this, but Sothis is also an alias, no? It was a name she took when she descended on Zanado or something like that?

Honestly the natural grouping for the 22 crests in the game gives us no hints about any unifying mythological theme behind them, with the exception of the 4 Saints. By natural grouping I mean: 

10 Elites + Maurice (The Beast)

 4 Saints

 Seiros & Sothis (Flames)

 4 Apostles

 Ernest??

The 4 Saints are natural Nabateans, rather than humans, which could have explained it, but then it would make sense for the 4 Apostles to then all come from Irish mythology, or at least the same mythology as each other, but they definitely don't. From a very cursory look, Chevalier is a French/Belgian military rank, Aubin might refer to a French saint called St Albinus, who in fairness literally had a high Faith stat and was said to have caused miracles, Noa might be an Old Testament character that helped illustrate the law behind Jewish property rights, and Timotheos is a famed Greek sculptor. If anything, the Four Saints are odd ones out for being consistent. 

1 hour ago, anikom15 said:

Leicester Alliance is the one out of left field. The Ottoman Empire was a sultanate, not an 'alliance', although it was more free than the European countries most of the time.

It might be less left-field than you think. Almyra in the Japanese is called Palmyra, which is the ancient Greek name for a city-state in what is now western Syria, which was famous for its fierce military but eventually became a military/administrative centre in the Ottoman Empire. There are a ton of differences between Almyra and Palmyra, but its relation with the Leicester Alliance might be like the Ottoman Empire's with Palmyra. 

[Mylady]

Aegir, Ferdinand's surname, is the nordic god of the sea.

 

Blaidyd, Dimitri's surname is a legendary Celtic king

[haarhaarhaar]

I think it's been mentioned before that the Leicester Alliance has a lot to do with King Lear. The legend of Leir of Britain on which the Shakespeare play is based has it that the king founds the area of Leicester. Regan (Riegan), Goneril (Goneril) and Cordelia (Ordelia, but in the Japanese the family name is Cordelia) are his three daughters, Gloucester (Gloucester) is his ally and a high-ranking noble, and Edmund (Edmund) is Gloucester's cunning and shrewd illegitimate son.

The relationships and natures of those characters seem to come through a little bit in 3H as well:

Regan and Goneril are close at the beginning of the play (as Claude and Hilda are throughout the story). The sisters also often get their way with trickery and flattery (as Claude and Hilda are characterised, though both of them are far more good-natured than their Lear characters).

The Earl of Gloucester is short-sighted when it comes to what benefits him (as Lorenz describes his father in his paralogue).

Marianne's guardian has plenty of business savvy, which he uses to leverage his position in the Alliance and is considered something of a rising star, and Edmund in the play regularly displays his cunning in his attempt to get to the top of the hierarchy and gain land and power.

Cordelia is impoverished for large parts of the play (as House Ordelia is) and is punished and captured as a result of a war between England and France (she married the King of France). Which is like how House Ordelia helped House Hrym and suffered dearly for it. It's also interesting that, just as Cordelia receives nothing from her father, House Ordelia has no natural Crest-bearers that we know of (Lysithea's are implanted), but the Riegan and Goneril families do. Lysithea being younger than her peers at the Academy reflects too that Cordelia is the youngest sibling, and both are similarly straight talkers that are sometimes misunderstood.

[B.Leu]

There's also various references to the Ars Goetia.

Byleth, named after one of the king of hell who is said to posess vast knowledge. It's funny to note that the japanese game use two version variation of the name. Sitri, named after the prince of hell who can cause love between man and woman. Yeah, Goetia's weird. Gremory the class, named after the duke who take the form of a woman riding a camel, and is able tell things from past, present and future.

...DxD really butchered the mythology eh ?

[Mylady]

On 4/17/2020 at 7:27 PM, Lightchao42 said:

Lastly, Byleth and Sitri are named after demons from the Ars Goetia. Notably, Sitri is the twelfth demon listed and Byleth is the thirteenth; in Three Houses, Sitri and Byleth are respectively the 12th and 13th vessels of Sothis. If this naming scheme carried over from the previous vessels, then the first would be named Bael, the second would be Agares, and so on.

So it's possible to assume that Sothis original name was Bael, Bel or any variation of the first Goethia demon

[Hardric62]

Getting this thread out because I just thought about something recently, especially after the interviews comparing Fodlan to China during the Three Kingdoms period.

 

So far, one of the main political entities Adrestia has been compared to was the Holy Roman Empire, with the names used inside the country, the relationship emperor/archbishop, the high nobility families... But I think it can be compared to another empire.

Regarding Edelgard's theoreticaly meritocratic society, most people don't really see equivalents in the real world. But there is one empire who professed recruitment of elites by merit, using exams to sort out the ones deserving posts in the administrations. This system was created in the VIIth century (Sui and Tang dynasty), with inspiration dating back to earlier dynasties of that empire ruling from the IInd century BC to the 2nd century AD (Han dynasty). This system knew its highs and lows, but endured through several imperial dynasties, inspired neighbouring countries to imitate that system (Vietnam, Korea)... sometimes after military occupation by said empire, for more than a millenium: the imperial exams and mandarins system of Imperial China.

And it goes further. Ministers as hereditary families? A thing when the system was breaking down and scholars formed their own clans and cliques. Puppet emperor cotrolled by its court? When it was not barbarian invasions or ambitious warlords (and, welp, if you interpret Fodlan as China, its fracturing echoes that too), that was one of China's big pains in the butt.

Heck, Fodlan's isolationism is also fairly consistant with most Chinese empires' attitude towards outsiders, down to 'barbarian' invasions, and the world technology moving up around them.

Welp, I mean, since Fire Emblem looks like a western 'verse, you compare it to Europe, and well the shoe can fit, with Adrestia as the HRE or Byzantine Empire, Leicester as Renaissance Italy as a mess of multiple political identities, and a touch of Commonwealth of Poland-Lithuania both as an example of a country controlled by its nobility with a nominal at best king, and one wasting away without a central authority, or Faerghus as France for the parallels to chivalry, 'eldest daughter of the Church', the assemblies instuted by Dimitri in the AM eilogues which could be tied to the first medieval communes, or the names of the countries, towns, characters... Just how many possible references to Asian situations, or heck, anywhere else in the world, if that's to be found, get missed by people playing the games?

[haarhaarhaar]

2 hours ago, Hardric62 said:

Welp, I mean, since Fire Emblem looks like a western 'verse, you compare it to Europe, and well the shoe can fit, with Adrestia as the HRE or Byzantine Empire, Leicester as Renaissance Italy as a mess of multiple political identities, and a touch of Commonwealth of Poland-Lithuania both as an example of a country controlled by its nobility with a nominal at best king, and one wasting away without a central authority, or Faerghus as France for the parallels to chivalry, 'eldest daughter of the Church', the assemblies instuted by Dimitri in the AM eilogues which could be tied to the first medieval communes, or the names of the countries, towns, characters... Just how many possible references to Asian situations, or heck, anywhere else in the world, if that's to be found, get missed by people playing the games?

This is a really interesting point! On the one hand, Japanese (and to a slightly lesser extent Chinese) mythological references are much closer to hand for domestic audiences for FE titles. So from a domestic perspective (I'm not Japanese and this is just speculation) references to Western mythology might appear slightly more exotic, which is why they get used. Although if pop culture fantasy is anything to go by, there are tons of modern works which are recognisably in a generic medieval European setting both internationally and in Japan, perhaps even more than the quite large categories catering to East Asian history (Three Kingdoms, 'feudal' Japan etc.) And from the perspective of Western hemisphere audiences, European references feel slightly more familiar, so it's just easier for those to shine through. There's also still an abject lack of games that touch significantly on mythologies/cultures from most places outside of Western Europe and Eastern Asia (though this is hardly the place to talk about that).

FE has done games filled with Asian references (Birthright immediately comes to mind), even though 3H doesn't feel like one of them. It doesn't mean they aren't there, but I wonder if that's on purpose too. There are occasional bits in the game, like the Wo Dao (which isn't a sword unique to 3H though), but the relatively isolationist policy of the continent of Fodlan generally means that its peoples are quite ignorant of foreign customs, and so the vast majority of references aren't Asian to reflect this homogeneity. I have no idea how many other Asian references there are though, so that might just be completely the wrong thread to follow.

 

 

[UNLEASH IT]

I'm thinking that the Saints (when transformed, anyway) are supposed to be references to the four guardians of chinese mythology

Macuil- Vermillion Bird

Indech- Black Tortoise

Cichol- Probably Azure Dragon

Cethleann- Probably White Tiger

With Seiros as the Yellow Dragon in the centre. I wish we could've seen what 

Spoiler

Seteth and Flayn looked like in their dragon forms though

 

[Hardric62]

 

7 hours ago, UNLEASH IT said:

 

Cichol- Probably Azure Dragon

Cethleann- Probably White Tiger

 

Maybe rather the reverse? If I remember the Crest Items right, Cichol is the one associated with Earth, so Tiger could make more sense (okay, White Tiger actually goes with Metal)... And further reading associates the White TIger with West, so possible case for that.

 

Speaking of China, if a comparation with the Three Kingdoms would have to be made... Which one is which one? Adrestia looks like Wei by virtue of being the one born of the remnants of the old empire (the Cao clan was the one with the last Han's custody), and Edelgard's willingness for ruthlessness matches Cao Cao's ('I would prefer to betray the world than have the world betray me'). Adrestia is also a bit too big and powerful to be the equivalent of Shu, despite the fact its king, Liu Bei, was claiming to be a Han descendant himself. Any thought on the other two kingdoms? I do think Shu fits Leicester in some way (a leader who is also an... adventurer of dubious origins, and I say that while being a big Liu Bei and Shu fan), leaving Wu with Faerghus.