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I heard Boruto fillers might be introducing a new chunin exam so that could be pretty decent. 

Boruto's a curious case in that I enjoy the cast of characters but I'm very tepid about the story. The fact that Boruto insisted on continuing with the stupid alien subplot is a really sore point for me since ending the Naruto stories by aliens randomly wandering into the story and pretending they were behind everything was the biggest mistake of that entire anime. You don't fix a mistake by investing heavily in it. You fix the situation by pretending it never happened. So the Boruto villains leaning heavily on the stupid aliens instantly delegitimizes most Boruto villains. Maybe that's why I'm more tolerant of filler in Boruto than I was with Naruto because at least the aliens usually aren't in it. 

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7 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

I heard Boruto fillers might be introducing a new chunin exam so that could be pretty decent. 

Boruto's a curious case in that I enjoy the cast of characters but I'm very tepid about the story. The fact that Boruto insisted on continuing with the stupid alien subplot is a really sore point for me since ending the Naruto stories by aliens randomly wandering into the story and pretending they were behind everything was the biggest mistake of that entire anime. You don't fix a mistake by investing heavily in it. You fix the situation by pretending it never happened. So the Boruto villains leaning heavily on the stupid aliens instantly delegitimizes most Boruto villains. Maybe that's why I'm more tolerant of filler in Boruto than I was with Naruto because at least the aliens usually aren't in it. 

The interesting thing about Boruto "fillers" is that most of them aren't actually filler; the creators of the anime and the writer of the manga have said multiple times that most of the anime-only content in Boruto is canon. The manga even sometimes acknowledges the anime-only arcs just to further make it clear.

Eh; I don't mind the Otsutsuki too much; I agree that they take up too much of the story, but I don't think the solution would've been to pretend that they didn't happen; episodic storylines can easily drop bad story beats and pretend they didn't happen, but more serialized content does have to deal with the fallout of their worse ideas, and I think, early on at least, Boruto did do a decent job dealing with the fallout. For just one example, having Sasuke investigate Kaguya's origins and reasons for making an army of White Zetsu led to the Sarada arc that was fantastic.

I think we can agree about enjoying the cast of characters but being tepid about the story. I really like pretty much all the characters except Boruto (not because he's a brat, but because, outside of the movie arc (as in the arc with the Chunin Exams and Momoshiki), he became an extremely passive protagonist with no real goals or internal motivations), but I have strongly mixed feelings about the story.

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On 10/12/2021 at 9:54 PM, vanguard333 said:

I think we can agree about enjoying the cast of characters but being tepid about the story. I really like pretty much all the characters except Boruto (not because he's a brat, but because, outside of the movie arc (as in the arc with the Chunin Exams and Momoshiki), he became an extremely passive protagonist with no real goals or internal motivations), but I have strongly mixed feelings about the story.

Boruto has a bit of a reputation as a brat but I think that's mostly undeserved. Sure he's excitable, lazy and a little rude but in his dealings with others he's usually pretty good natured and helpful. The first we see of the kid is him going out of his way to save a boy from bullies and chat with him about his problems. Even with the occasional mouthy attitude he seems to get on good enough with just about everyone whether its his teachers or his peers.  Except Naruto and I think that's where his bad reputation stems from. Boruto acts unpleasant only to Naruto who we're already conditioned to like so people are quicker to take the dad's side.

In fact when comparing the two Boruto seems significantly softer and less bratty than his father was at that age. 

As for being passive. I somewhat blame the aliens for that too. They're supposed to be stronger than Madara who was stronger than essentially the entire world combined so there's not much room for kid genin in most cases. And unlike with Naruto who the villains were very interested in the aliens don't think much of Boruto. Or not until that horn started growing out of his skull at least. 

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1 hour ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Boruto has a bit of a reputation as a brat but I think that's mostly undeserved. Sure he's excitable, lazy and a little rude but in his dealings with others he's usually pretty good natured and helpful. The first we see of the kid is him going out of his way to save a boy from bullies and chat with him about his problems. Even with the occasional mouthy attitude he seems to get on good enough with just about everyone whether its his teachers or his peers.  Except Naruto and I think that's where his bad reputation stems from. Boruto acts unpleasant only to Naruto who we're already conditioned to like so people are quicker to take the dad's side.

In fact when comparing the two Boruto seems significantly softer and less bratty than his father was at that age. 

As for being passive. I somewhat blame the aliens for that too. They're supposed to be stronger than Madara who was stronger than essentially the entire world combined so there's not much room for kid genin in most cases. And unlike with Naruto who the villains were very interested in the aliens don't think much of Boruto. Or not until that horn started growing out of his skull at least. 

I think the real difference is that, whenever Naruto was being abrasive, it was clear that it was a cry for attention and a desperate attempt to ease his loneliness and hide his feelings of inferiority. With Boruto, while it is clear from the start that he has problems with his dad not being around, outside of certain moments like Naruto taking Boruto to Ichiraku Ramen, it really wasn't explored properly until the movie arc (which, incidentally, was the only arc in which I considered Boruto to be a compelling protagonist). For example, whenever Naruto was being boisterous, it was clear that it was a façade to avoid revealing his insecurities. With Boruto, when he's being boisterous, it's often hard to tell if he really is just that arrogant, or if it's him trying to seem like he can measure up to his dad (again; the movie arc did a great job painting it as the latter, but it really does often come across as the former outside of that particular arc).

Naruto desperately trying to end his loneliness was a constant throughout the series; an overarching internal motivation, and it was throughout everything he did, from winning the acceptance of the village and becoming Hokage, saving Sasuke, all the way to realizing his feelings for Hinata in The Last.

Boruto has no such motivation; not since the movie arc ended. I'm not saying that he needs one that goes on throughout the whole series; just that he needs one. I think the fact that he doesn't have one is the source of his passivity: he's just reacting to a plot that's happening around him; he isn't driving any of it. I don't think the aliens are responsible for that; even if they were something he could feasibly fight, he'd largely just be reacting to them. Naruto drove the plot forward; he was an active protagonist up against active villains like the Akatsuki, Obito and Madara.

 

Anyway, what did you think of the point I made earlier about how very little of the anime-only content is actually considered filler by the series' creators?

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On 10/12/2021 at 8:04 AM, Etrurian emperor said:

I heard Boruto fillers might be introducing a new chunin exam so that could be pretty decent. 

Boruto's a curious case in that I enjoy the cast of characters but I'm very tepid about the story. The fact that Boruto insisted on continuing with the stupid alien subplot is a really sore point for me since ending the Naruto stories by aliens randomly wandering into the story and pretending they were behind everything was the biggest mistake of that entire anime. You don't fix a mistake by investing heavily in it. You fix the situation by pretending it never happened. So the Boruto villains leaning heavily on the stupid aliens instantly delegitimizes most Boruto villains. Maybe that's why I'm more tolerant of filler in Boruto than I was with Naruto because at least the aliens usually aren't in it. 

Starting to get tired of this narrative that Kaguya was a bad villain when in fact she’s the best representation of the series’ themes regarding ninjas as tools in this war torn dualistic world of hypocritical shinobi. Even more so than Madara. Kaguya represents that ideal of shinobi as tools perfectly. She takes that philosophy to a faraway extreme. Her being an alien actually helps in that because she’s not human. She’s an inhuman god that looks down on humanity as nothing more than tools or sources of power much the same way shinobi are viewed by their nations and the system at large. The infinite tsukuyomi being just that. A way to turn people into nothing more than her mindless slaves by stripping them of their humanity. It takes that idea of shinobi as tools to a faraway extreme by literally turning them into tools. Black Zetsu even brings this up in that he says the entirety of shinobi history was nothing more than a tool he used to facilitate Kaguya’s revival but he’s wrong. Naruto even tells him that once the fight ends and he kicks him into the planetary devastation. Shinobi are not tools they are human. Shinobi history is more than a tool to facilitate Kaguya’s revival. Shinobi history is defined by humans enduring their own pain and trying to find an end to this endless cycle of hate, war, and suffering. Which was something well established all the way back in the first arc of the series with Zabuza. This is how Kaguya works as an antagonist by representung the extreme of that philosophy of shinobi cutting away their hearts but much like the humans she looked down on she never could which there in lies her hypocrisy

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7 hours ago, Ottservia said:

Starting to get tired of this narrative that Kaguya was a bad villain when in fact she’s the best representation of the series’ themes regarding ninjas as tools in this war torn dualistic world of hypocritical shinobi. Even more so than Madara. Kaguya represents that ideal of shinobi as tools perfectly. She takes that philosophy to a faraway extreme. Her being an alien actually helps in that because she’s not human. She’s an inhuman god that looks down on humanity as nothing more than tools or sources of power much the same way shinobi are viewed by their nations and the system at large. The infinite tsukuyomi being just that. A way to turn people into nothing more than her mindless slaves by stripping them of their humanity. It takes that idea of shinobi as tools to a faraway extreme by literally turning them into tools. Black Zetsu even brings this up in that he says the entirety of shinobi history was nothing more than a tool he used to facilitate Kaguya’s revival but he’s wrong. Naruto even tells him that once the fight ends and he kicks him into the planetary devastation. Shinobi are not tools they are human. Shinobi history is more than a tool to facilitate Kaguya’s revival. Shinobi history is defined by humans enduring their own pain and trying to find an end to this endless cycle of hate, war, and suffering. Which was something well established all the way back in the first arc of the series with Zabuza. This is how Kaguya works as an antagonist by representung the extreme of that philosophy of shinobi cutting away their hearts but much like the humans she looked down on she never could which there in lies her hypocrisy

Well I don't think you'll stop hearing it soon. Even people who had the space people grow on them don't seem to regard her very well.

I don't really think she adheres to the series themes well because she's so extremely isolated from the plot, from the world and from other characters.

 Madara, Obito, Danzo and others were all representation of long standing themes in the series. The ninja world corrupting those within it, the more benevolent(ish) Will of Fire vs a darker path, the supposedly destined struggle between Senju and Uchiha, the curse of hatred, vengeance. Tobi followed up on Pain as to how trauma created by the ninja world could bring someone to villainy, Danzo  and to some extend the cloud and rock reflect the dark sides of the ninja status quo which in turn strengthens the like of Madara and Tobi who seek to rebel against this status quo. Its not always graceful or well executed but with the Naruto rogue gallery you can clearly see various different philosophies, systems and events clash to create many different sort of villains. Danzo's in many ways a reaction to Madara, Pain and Sasuke then become reactions to Danzo, the Raikage becomes a reaction to Sasuke. Or the way of the Tsuchikage in some parts being a reaction to Madara, Tobi's fall being partially caused by them and who then goes on to partially cause the falls of Pain and Sasuke. 

But Kaguya can't be any of that. Because she's not a real part of the Naruto world or it story. Unlike Danzo or Madara she doesn't really convey anything. She's not made the way she is by the ninja world, doesn't desire to change it, has no ties to anyone but Zetsu, does not represent the great evil of the Naruto world like Madara and is deeply impersonal for anyone involved.

The idea that ninjas are tools was already very strongly represented so thematically that there was no need for an alien to randomly walk into the climax of the plot and say ''Heya. You all don't know me and I don't know any of you. But despite the story reaching its end I just want to say I've been secretly behind every single event in the series and oh yeah chakra comes from me too. Now let me take out the final boss you've been building up to for decades and replace him for the lulz'' Clumsy is what it is. Really, really clumsy and there's something inherently artificial about her inclusion that makes me suspect she's corporate mandated, be it as a set up for Boruto or executives being desperate to delay the end of the Naruto gravy train for a few more weeks. 

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7 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

The idea that ninjas are tools was already very strongly represented so thematically that there was no need for an alien to randomly walk into the climax of the plot and say ''Heya. You all don't know me and I don't know any of you. But despite the story reaching its end I just want to say I've been secretly behind every single event in the series and oh yeah chakra comes from me too. Now let me take out the final boss you've been building up to for decades and replace him for the lulz'' Clumsy is what it is. Really, really clumsy and there's something inherently artificial about her inclusion that makes me suspect she's corporate mandated, be it as a set up for Boruto or executives being desperate to delay the end of the Naruto gravy train for a few more weeks. 

First of all Madara being taken out the way he was foreshadowed ever since his backstory. Madara’s back is his biggest weakness because he couldn’t trust anyone to watch his back ever since his family died on him. And the only two people he let that shield down for is Hashirama and Black Zetsu both of which literally stabbed him in the back for the sake of their own goals. Madara’s back is both his literal and thematic weakness. Thematically it represents his inability to be a true leader because he could never trust anyone to walk behind him. He could never stand in front. In not respecting his own humanity he falls into the same failings as Obito by being manipulated by Kaguya the one who exists outside the bounds of the hypocritical world of shinobi. Kaguya is the extremes of Madara’s ideals and philosophies personified. A god who exists above the dualistic nature of humanity.

 

7 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

But Kaguya can't be any of that. Because she's not a real part of the Naruto world or it story. Unlike Danzo or Madara she doesn't really convey anything. She's not made the way she is by the ninja world, doesn't desire to change it, has no ties to anyone but Zetsu, does not represent the great evil of the Naruto world like Madara and is deeply impersonal for anyone involved.

Except she can and it is for that very reason. Kaguya is what Madara wanted to become that being a god who rises above the dualistic nature of humanity. The only reason Madara couldn’t was because he was only human with human flaws. Kaguya is different for she is the actual god that Madara strove to become. She isn’t human and it is precisely for that reason that makes her such a perfect representation of the themes of this story. Kaguya isn’t human. She isn’t a shinobi because she has no human emotion. The symbolism is made more evident when you look at the kanji used to create the word “ninja” which is 忍. Read as “nin” it translates as endurance but the radicals that make it up are 刀(meaning “blade”) and 心(meaning “heart”) meaning you can interpret  忍び as “heart cut away by blade”. How this relates to Kaguya is that she has no heart because she has already cut it away and views humanity in much the same fashion. The infinite tsukuyomi being a jutsu meant to strip people of their humanity, their hearts, to better act as mindless tools. But shinobi are human not tools for Kaguya to take advantage of. Shinobi can’t cut away what matters to them for then they would have never chosen to become shinobi but shinobi can endure. And even Kaguya herself could never cut away her heart because she didn’t want to kill her two sons by expressing sorrow at the idea of having to kill Naruto and Sasuke. The reason Kaguya works as antagonist at all is because she isn’t human.

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19 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

 

Anyway, what did you think of the point I made earlier about how very little of the anime-only content is actually considered filler by the series' creators?

I chalk it up to the kinda troubled production of Boruto. As far as the scedule is concerned it seems to be a big mess. The reason it started at the academy was because with a monthly release scedule the anime would catch up almost instantly if they started at the same point. So making the ''filler'' canon was sensible, and also gave the manga room for future plot points. It kinda didn't work out though since the manga insisted on spending time it didn't have by adaption the movie. And in general the manga seems to move at the phase of a snail. I often have the impression the Boruto anime is just about always on the verge of overtaking the manga. If I recall correctly that certain big event from the manga happened, and I recall hearing about that event quite some time ago, but now that the anime got there I looked it up and it seems the manga is still only a single arc away from that event. 

So in that case its best for the creators to decide to say the content to prevent the anime from overtaking the manga is canon, because there's going to be a lot of it. Which I don't entirely mind. Less space people that way. 

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5 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

I chalk it up to the kinda troubled production of Boruto. As far as the scedule is concerned it seems to be a big mess. The reason it started at the academy was because with a monthly release scedule the anime would catch up almost instantly if they started at the same point. So making the ''filler'' canon was sensible, and also gave the manga room for future plot points. It kinda didn't work out though since the manga insisted on spending time it didn't have by adaption the movie. And in general the manga seems to move at the phase of a snail. I often have the impression the Boruto anime is just about always on the verge of overtaking the manga. If I recall correctly that certain big event from the manga happened, and I recall hearing about that event quite some time ago, but now that the anime got there I looked it up and it seems the manga is still only a single arc away from that event. 

So in that case its best for the creators to decide to say the content to prevent the anime from overtaking the manga is canon, because there's going to be a lot of it. Which I don't entirely mind. Less space people that way. 

Yeah; it does seem to be a scheduling/planning mess. They really should've had more of a plan, and it honestly just makes me respect the anime writers for the anime-only arcs being as good as they are (sometimes better than the manga content).

I agree that the manga should not have recapped the movie content. The anime had good reason for doing so: it added back in everything that had been cut from the movie to shorten the runtime (such as Toneri and Urashiki; I kid you not, Urashiki was going to be in the movie and got cut), and generally improving over the movie in basically every way. The only two reasons I can think of for the manga retreading the movie are 1. art practice, and 2. Establishing the karma seal, as the movie did not show Momoshiki planting a karma on Boruto as far as I know. The former could easily have been done through, well, practice, and the latter could easily have been done through a less-than-a-chapter-long prologue rather than recapping the entire movie.

Yeah; the manga is moving at a snail's pace. It's honestly ridiculous.

True; there will be less arcs with the Otsutsuki this way, unless of course they bring back Urashiki, which they easily could do; his last fight was in the time-travel arc against kid-Naruto, Boruto, Sasuke and past-Jiraiya, and they introduced a clone of Jiraiya, so they could easily bring him back by revealing that he planted a karma seal on Jiraiya. And I honestly wouldn't mind that much if they brought him back; he was the only Otsutsuki villain in Boruto that I thought was actually interesting.

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