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Hey what's going on guys?  Got some great insight for you. I believe that the trickster class is practically made for Sylvain. How so? Well, it just so happens that he has a hidden talent for black magic where he learns Black magic avoid +20. So of course I taught him the required faith magic as well as black magic. To help him with swords I picked him as the representative for the dance competition where he earned Sword avoid +20. This is perfect as trickster specializes is swords and magic. He'll practically be untouched by most enemies and can be used as a dodge tank(especially useful on maddening). Hope this helps.

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why would I use this over dancer? Does the same thing, but better utility since you can dance.

Sylvain using black magic is such a meme build. He has a 30% mag growth and base 5 mag. With no class growths(doesn't matter much anyways), by lvl 40 hes gonna reach 17 mag on average. Never gonna kill anything.

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I really like this idea. It's a bit more of an unconventional build for Sylvain and I can appreciate that.

Sylvain's black magic spell list is good, but heavy. The real prize of his spell list is on the Faith side, as Seraphim is really useful in the endgame.

Sylvain makes for a decent trickster and it's a great build, but I would make Ingrid a trickster before him. (although tbh, I think both of them are better off on a mount. Characters like Yuri, Dorothea, Manuela, Anna, Ignatz, and Marianne are easier to train and build as a trickster.)

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Best way to unlock Sylvain black magic spell power: obtain Poison Strike and Fiendish Blow

 

I think Sylvain as a trickster could work well. Just remember to equip Poison Strike for this build.

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2 hours ago, AC6 said:

Best way to unlock Sylvain black magic spell power: obtain Poison Strike and Fiendish Blow

 

I think Sylvain as a trickster could work well. Just remember to equip Poison Strike for this build.

Yes, I actually got fiendish blow for him already (as well as death blow) Just need to work on that poison strike. Great idea!

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I don't think it's a good build for him. To get use of his hidden talent, he'd be way better as a warlock or a dark Knight. I truly think that it's almost impossible to make a build for any character based on more than one evasion skill and even more difficult to make a mixed attacker.

Since you can only load five skills on any character, you'd probably get one weapon prowess, either fiendish or death blow depending on the character, and some skills to further boost the character general gameplay, be it the chosen weapon critical/avoid/faire/range when available, the related breaker, some stat booster (from the beginners tier classes) or other situational class skills.

If you load two avoid skills and two mutually exclusive skills (fiendish and death blow), you get a character that won't be nearly as useful as it could be. Is even worse since you'd have killed the chance of getting a useful dancer, since sword prowess v gives you as much avoid as sword avoid, but it boosts other stats as well.

For me, Sylvain is good as a warmaster, paladin and wyvern lord, and if you want to use his hidden talent, either warlock or dark knight.

If you want the over the top dodge tank, you should use Ferdinand instead, since his personal skill grants avoid at full hp (which his crest shield can replenish), has sword proficiency, and would use his magic less often (he is there to sword avoid anyone and everyone).

For Ferdinand's sword avoid set, you'd have to use, sword avoid and sword prowess, and, if you want a player phase character, death and duelist blows, and maybe lifetaker if you make the detour. Of you want an enemy phase dodge tank, you should instead get alert stance (or better the upgraded version). Axebreaker can be used in either build.

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On 4/17/2020 at 11:48 PM, leesangstar10 said:

why would I use this over dancer? Does the same thing, but better utility since you can dance.

Sylvain using black magic is such a meme build. He has a 30% mag growth and base 5 mag. With no class growths(doesn't matter much anyways), by lvl 40 hes gonna reach 17 mag on average. Never gonna kill anything.

Yeahhhhh, my Sylvain on 5 different play throughs with no Spirit Dust always reached decently high levels of mag, that rivaled (or in 2 play throughs) surpassed his Str stat. Sure he wasn't Lysithea levels, but he wasn't unusable. Pair that with his speed, and he was always doubling.

I wouldn't dismiss class growths that much, they can really affect how a character turns out. Clearly I got lucky (especially on 1 play through), but I find it hard to believe him using black magic is a meme build when on none of the playthroughs did he manage to have 17 magic by level 40. At Level 34 in my current play-through he has 24 magic and 23 strength.

Anyways, my Sylvain is currently a Trickster on my Maddening playthrough (aiming to be a Dark Knight), but I'm actually loving him as a Trickster, it's a great intermediate class I think. I think for endgame he's definitely going to perform better as a Dark Knight, but for this middle section, Trickster is definitely doing it. I didn't do the Sword Avo+20 (opted for Fiendish/Death/Duelist Blow), which is cool for initiating combat and being pretty great about dodging everything.

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Sorry, but I think this just isn't a good build. Magic based budding talents tend to not be worth it on physical leaning characters; why would I waste one of Sylvain's five ability slots on Black Magic Avoid +20 when I'd likely already have better options, or get them not too long after? It doesn't help that Trickster gets halved magic use, meaning you only get that avoid boost for 15 uses at most.

Edited by Shadow Mir

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10 hours ago, Kiran_ said:

Yeahhhhh, my Sylvain on 5 different play throughs with no Spirit Dust always reached decently high levels of mag, that rivaled (or in 2 play throughs) surpassed his Str stat. Sure he wasn't Lysithea levels, but he wasn't unusable. Pair that with his speed, and he was always doubling.

I wouldn't dismiss class growths that much, they can really affect how a character turns out. Clearly I got lucky (especially on 1 play through), but I find it hard to believe him using black magic is a meme build when on none of the playthroughs did he manage to have 17 magic by level 40. At Level 34 in my current play-through he has 24 magic and 23 strength.

Anyways, my Sylvain is currently a Trickster on my Maddening playthrough (aiming to be a Dark Knight), but I'm actually loving him as a Trickster, it's a great intermediate class I think. I think for endgame he's definitely going to perform better as a Dark Knight, but for this middle section, Trickster is definitely doing it. I didn't do the Sword Avo+20 (opted for Fiendish/Death/Duelist Blow), which is cool for initiating combat and being pretty great about dodging everything.

If you pass the Warlock exam upon reaching level 20, he'll get base magic 17 instantly. After that, leveling up as that would net you 23 magic (plus 3 if in Warlock class) on average by level 34 and 21 if you level up as a trickster. The point is that Sylvain benefits more from stat base fixing than regular level-ups. He gets 5-6 points of magic from class-changing, two of them when turning into a monk and the rest when turning into a Warlock. If you get 20+ by level 30 (without bonuses) without getting into warlock or dark bishop, you've been blessed in his stats.

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11 hours ago, Kiran_ said:

Yeahhhhh, my Sylvain on 5 different play throughs with no Spirit Dust always reached decently high levels of mag, that rivaled (or in 2 play throughs) surpassed his Str stat. Sure he wasn't Lysithea levels, but he wasn't unusable. Pair that with his speed, and he was always doubling.

I wouldn't dismiss class growths that much, they can really affect how a character turns out. Clearly I got lucky (especially on 1 play through), but I find it hard to believe him using black magic is a meme build when on none of the playthroughs did he manage to have 17 magic by level 40. At Level 34 in my current play-through he has 24 magic and 23 strength.

Sorry but personal experience doesn't tell much how good a unit is OBJECTIVELY. Class growths doesn't help much. Its only a 10% boost meaning you are only getting 1 mag per 10 lvls on average. 1 more mag doesn't make or break a unit's performance. Also I mainly didn't include class growths because idk the exact class path.

His speed is not that good where it doubles everything. He averages 28 spd by lvl 40(no class growths). Even if you certify as trickster at lvl 20, by 40 you get 36 spd with class boost and growths. Pretty good, but not enough to double everything. Assasins, falcon knights, swordmaster have like 40+ spd by like ch13. Also tomes/spells are heavy in this game.

6 minutes ago, paladin21 said:

If you pass the Warlock exam upon reaching level 20, he'll get base magic 17 instantly.

I forgot about the class bases and modifiers so my calculations were very wrong, but my point still stands on how bad his magic would be. You are basically get base warlock by level 20 when other mages are well over base 17 mag.

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On 4/20/2020 at 12:58 PM, leesangstar10 said:

Sorry but personal experience doesn't tell much how good a unit is OBJECTIVELY. Class growths doesn't help much. Its only a 10% boost meaning you are only getting 1 mag per 10 lvls on average. 1 more mag doesn't make or break a unit's performance. Also I mainly didn't include class growths because idk the exact class path.

His speed is not that good where it doubles everything. He averages 28 spd by lvl 40(no class growths). Even if you certify as trickster at lvl 20, by 40 you get 36 spd with class boost and growths. Pretty good, but not enough to double everything. Assasins, falcon knights, swordmaster have like 40+ spd by like ch13. Also tomes/spells are heavy in this game.

I forgot about the class bases and modifiers so my calculations were very wrong, but my point still stands on how bad his magic would be. You are basically get base warlock by level 20 when other mages are well over base 17 mag.

I agree that objectively it's not the best, but my point was more you can't totally ignore class bases and modifiers, which is what your original post did, which was my entire point. And once again, you're ignoring class growths.

Once again his speed isn't amazing, but once again, if you do class growths right (like you even point out) you can have my Sylvain which has 37 speed (with 1 speedwing), by level 34. Not saying this is the norm, but if you're smart at layering the class growths ontop of normal growths you can effectively maximize a character. For me I did Mage-->Swordmaster-->Trickster. The difference between 28 speed and 36 speed is huge. That's why you can't just ignore class boosts/growths. Sure it's not top tier, but nobody is arguing it is.

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The good: Sylvain's spell list is stupidly accurate.
The bad: His growths are geared towards physical.

I can see the appeal in dodging everything via Trickster.  But that takes up two skill slots and the dancer class.  IMO he'd be best off mastering Trickster, then taking Duelist's Blow and either his budding talent or dancer's skill and going into another class.  Assassin would be pretty funny with the sword avoid.

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8 hours ago, Kiran_ said:

I agree that objectively it's not the best, but my point was more you can't totally ignore class bases and modifiers, which is what your original post did, which was my entire point. And once again, you're ignoring class growths.

no where in your original post mentions class bases or modifiers. You only mentioned how your sylvain didn't get 17 magic in your playthroughs. 

Yes i did forget about class bases, but it wasn't you that pointed that out. So don't claim something you didn't do.

No i did not ignore class growths. Not sure if you actually read my post but I clearly do mention it. I even calculated it. I said that class growths don't have a huge impact. 

Magic stat wise you are only getting 1 more mag per 10 lvls on average. So by level 40, leveling up in a magic class you are only getting 3 additional mag(no beginner class boost mag growths).

8 hours ago, Kiran_ said:

Once again his speed isn't amazing, but once again, if you do class growths right (like you even point out) you can have my Sylvain which has 37 speed (with 1 speedwing), by level 34. Not saying this is the norm, but if you're smart at layering the class growths ontop of normal growths you can effectively maximize a character. For me I did Mage-->Swordmaster-->Trickster. The difference between 28 speed and 36 speed is huge. That's why you can't just ignore class boosts/growths. Sure it's not top tier, but nobody is arguing it is.

Again you are talking about your personal experience, even including stat boosters. Again you got lucky so you mentioning your Sylvain doesn't prove anything objectively, using that path gives Sylvain 31.8 spd total(8 base + 17 from base growth + 4 from class modifier + 2 from 10 lvls of sword master growths + .8 from 4 lvls of trickster). 

Yes I said 36 spd is good, but I said it isn't enough to double everything which you said here:

On 4/20/2020 at 4:11 AM, Kiran_ said:

Pair that with his speed, and he was always doubling.

Yes it will allow you to double warriors and enemies that are a bit slow, but you sure ain't doubling everything.

I assume you are playing semi efficiently. To give you better context on what I mean by "semi efficiently", units are around lvl 40~45 by the final map for non CF routes. (and this is being pretty generous. My runs units ended between lvl 38~42 by final map)

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THAT'S IT.

Numbers.  Both in terms of what Sylvain should get stat-wise (on average, with maybe a bit of fudge room because the gardens exist), and in terms of the enemies he'll be facing.  Because these kinds of arguments are meaningless without context.  "One magic per ten levels" is accurate, but it's irrelevant if he's going to OHKO anyway (I know he's not, but it's an example).

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On 4/20/2020 at 1:11 AM, Kiran_ said:

I wouldn't dismiss class growths that much, they can really affect how a character turns out.

3 hours ago, leesangstar10 said:

no where in your original post mentions class bases or modifiers. You only mentioned how your sylvain didn't get 17 magic in your playthroughs. 

Ah. When I said class growths in my original post, I meant the modifiers (aren't they the same thing?). But 'bases and modifiers' sounded better than encompassing everything under class growths (I lump the stat increases from changing classes under the 'growth' category). But I meant the exact same thing, I wasn't trying to take credit for anything someone else pointed out. Anyways, I agree with Eclipse it is meaningless without context of enemies!

11 hours ago, eclipse said:

The good: Sylvain's spell list is stupidly accurate.
The bad: His growths are geared towards physical.

I can see the appeal in dodging everything via Trickster.  But that takes up two skill slots and the dancer class.  IMO he'd be best off mastering Trickster, then taking Duelist's Blow and either his budding talent or dancer's skill and going into another class.  Assassin would be pretty funny with the sword avoid.

Oooh, I definitely did him as Assassin as a leveling thing (for the speed growths) and it was very fun, because I didn't realize how much Duelist's Blow would affect it. =D I like this idea of Sword Avoid, but I agree Trickster is fun for what you can get off of it, but definitely not for the long haul. 

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10 hours ago, LoneRecon400 said:

Oooh, thanks~!  Faith Prowess would only be relevant for monster maps, as Seraphim has no dodge synergy otherwise.  I'd replace it with Speed/Magic +2 (depending on whether we're using his magic or his swords to dodge).  Not sure if he'd have time to get to armor C, but IMO every bit helps.  I'd also try to figure out which weapon he'd specialize in, because it looks like with the mostly-pure dodge build, he's still facing 50+ hit rates on defense against the lowest-accuracy enemies on Chapter 14.

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On 4/22/2020 at 4:28 AM, Kiran_ said:

Ah. When I said class growths in my original post, I meant the modifiers (aren't they the same thing?). But 'bases and modifiers' sounded better than encompassing everything under class growths (I lump the stat increases from changing classes under the 'growth' category).

Uh no. Class bases and stat modifiers are immediate(you get them once you certified into that class and 100% guaranteed) and growth rates are residual(as you level up after certification and chance based). 

On 4/22/2020 at 1:30 AM, eclipse said:

Numbers.

This is last ch of Azura Moon Maddening. I will assume Sylvain is lvl 45 at this point

*also certified for warlock

Noble(1-5)->Monk(5-10)->Mage(10-20)->Swordmaster(*20-30)->Trickster(30-45)

Sylvain lvl45 Stats

Hp: 57.45 Str: 29.3 Mag: 24.2 Dex: 24.15 Spd: 39 Lck: 25.9 Def: 23.1 Res: 22 Cha: 26.05 Mov: 5

with glouster knight *used this cause best mixed battalion

Ragnorok: Att 45 AS 34 Prt 28 Rsl 27 Cha 33

Bolganone: Att 38 AS 38 Prt 28 Rsl 27 Cha 33

Silver Sword+: Att 48 AS 34 Prt 28 Rsl 27 Cha 33

Brave Sword+: Att 45 AS 30 Prt 28 Rsl 27 Cha 33

Iron Sword+: Att 41 AS 39 Prt 28 Rsl 27 Cha 33

Enemies

Mortal Sevant: Wo Dao&Ragnorok

Hp: 58 Str: 35 Mag: 30 Dex: 24 Spd: 28 Lck: 23 Def: 32 Res: 32 Cha: 27

Wo Dao: Att: 48 AS 28

Rag: Att 50 AS 26

Gremory: Ragnorok

Hp: 52 Str: 24 Mag: 45 Dex: 35 Spd: 33 Lck: 13 Def: 22 Res: 36 Cha: 40*with battalion

Rag+battalion: Att 66 Ptr 26 Rsl 43 AS 28

War Master: Killer Knuckle

Hp: 70 Str: 45 Mag: 23 Dex: 23 Spd: 44 Lck: 14 Def: 35 Res: 13 Cha: 27

Killer Knuckle: Att 53 *fist flair AS 44

Sniper: Brave Bow

Hp: 52 Str: 33 Mag: 23 Dex: 43 Spd: 32 Lck: 16 Def: 30 Res: 13 Cha: 27

Brave Bow: Att 48 AS 25

Assassin: Silver Sword

Hp: 59 Str: 38 Mag: 26 Dex: 40 Spd: 57 Lck: 20 Def: 35 Res: 20 Cha: 31

Wo Dao: Att 51 AS 57

 

Sylvain wins only against the sniper out of these all these enemies.

Against MS

Ragnorok: 13x2 vs 23

silver sword+: 16x2 vs 23

Against Gremory

Ragnorok: 2x2 vs 39

silver sword+: 22x2 vs 39

Against War Master

Ragnorok: 32 vs 25x2

Against Sniper

Ragnorok: 32x2 vs 20

Against Asassain

Ragnorok: 25 vs 23x2

 

Also to note that Sylvain has a some what chance of being killed due to crit and the war master will kill him on enemy phase. Even with +3 in every stat, it still wouldn't make a diff.

*Edit: sure i didn't take in account of fiendish blow, but results would still be the same

Now someone please show me something that could make trickster sylvain can be good? There hasn't been anything objective that proved trickster sylvain being good.

If not, I lay my case rest assured. Magic Sylvain is such a meme build. I'm fine ppl using it and talking about it, but tryna convince it is good for him is objectively wrong, sorry. 

If you want Sylvain to use magic, go to dark knight. Give you flair and 7 mov(and could possibly get +1 mov). 

If you want Sylvain to use swords, go to Assassin. Gives you swordflair and 1 more mov.

If you want Sylvain to become a dodge tank/good, be wyvern lord. 8 mov, axe flair, flying. Can dodge with alert stance+ and avo +10(easily reaches +40avo)

Found enemy stats here:

 

Edited by leesangstar10

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2 minutes ago, leesangstar10 said:

If not, I lay my case rest assured. Magic Sylvain is such a meme build. I'm fine ppl using it and talking about it, but tryna convince it is good for him is objectively wrong, sorry. 

If you want Sylvain to use magic, go to dark knight. Give you flair and 7 mov(and could possibly get +1 mov). 

If you want Sylvain to use swords, go to Assassin. Gives you swordflair and 1 more mov.

If you want Sylvain to become a dodge tank/good, be wyvern lord. 8 mov, axe flair, flying. Can dodge with alert stance+ and avo +10(easily reaches +40avo)

Omitted the numbers because it would just make this unnecessarily long.

It sounds like you're dodging on EP only with those suggestions?  Mastering Trickster gives avoid on offense.

Also, definitely not looking at Sylvain as a solo machine.

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7 minutes ago, eclipse said:

Omitted the numbers because it would just make this unnecessarily long.

It sounds like you're dodging on EP only with those suggestions?  Mastering Trickster gives avoid on offense.

Also, definitely not looking at Sylvain as a solo machine.

Well EP only makes his performance worse and i do note that the war master kills on EP. I did my best and put trickster Sylvain in a more favorable position, but clearly he aint that great. My point is that he doesn't kill.

 

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12 hours ago, eclipse said:

Omitted the numbers because it would just make this unnecessarily long.

It sounds like you're dodging on EP only with those suggestions?  Mastering Trickster gives avoid on offense.

Also, definitely not looking at Sylvain as a solo machine.

why would you want to dodge on player phase when you could orko with swift strikes though?

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21 hours ago, leesangstar10 said:

Well EP only makes his performance worse and i do note that the war master kills on EP. I did my best and put trickster Sylvain in a more favorable position, but clearly he aint that great. My point is that he doesn't kill.

 

I don't think that's the point of this build.  But if you think that a unit's value is tied to their ability to kill, then perhaps topics that don't focus on that aren't for you.

9 hours ago, AxelVDP said:

why would you want to dodge on player phase when you could orko with swift strikes though?

Because there's no lance rank here.

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10 hours ago, eclipse said:

I don't think that's the point of this build.  But if you think that a unit's value is tied to their ability to kill, then perhaps topics that don't focus on that aren't for you.

Because there's no lance rank here.

well, of course, but there are other character who could fulfil this nieche build other than sylvain without gimping his potential

not that I really care how others play the game though, it's just that making a build that avoids counter damage on PP when you could achieve a better result by simply using swift strikes sounded really weird to me

especially when sylvain has no boons in swords/faith/bows

but alas, you do you

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6 hours ago, AxelVDP said:

well, of course, but there are other character who could fulfil this nieche build other than sylvain without gimping his potential

not that I really care how others play the game though, it's just that making a build that avoids counter damage on PP when you could achieve a better result by simply using swift strikes sounded really weird to me

especially when sylvain has no boons in swords/faith/bows

but alas, you do you

I'm just replying to the topic.  Tell that to the person who thought it was a cool idea.

As for me?  I really like Ruined Sky, and also like Seraphim, so I'd be doing something completely different.

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