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What do you think of healers?  

36 members have voted

  1. 1. Are they good compared to other heroes

    • No
      5
    • Yes
      19
    • Meh, they are alright
      12
  2. 2. Do healers need a buff?

    • Yes
      17
    • No
      19
  3. 3. Do healers require more investment to be good than other heroes?

    • Yes
      21
    • No
      15


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I need to do some research on the general consensus of healers in FEH, and given that staff units are the typical demote nowadays

So I have some questions

1: Are they good to use?

2: Do they compare well to other heroes?

3: Do they need a kind of buff?

4: Do they require more investment to be good than most heroes?

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Staff units are fine. They have one of the best support mechanics in the game right now, and that doesn't look to be changing anytime in the foreseeable future. The reason they are commonly demoted is because they simply don't bring anything new to the table; inheritable staff weapons are simply too good, and their primary role as a support unit doesn't require them to have any particular stat spread to function.

I don't think they need a buff. Atk/Spd Solo and Atk/Spd Push 4 are sufficient to compensate for more offensively oriented staff units not having access to other stat-boosting skills, but most of the time, you don't need them to take that role in the first place. Killing the target with Gravity or Pain is usually just a bonus and not the primary intent of the attack.

The only investment needed is usually to have Wrathful Staff or Dazzling Staff in the B slot so that you can have the other on the weapon. Pretty much every recent premium staff unit already has one or the other; otherwise, you just aim to grab copies of Genny from her 4% revival banners, which are extremely orb-efficient for sniping.

Edited by Ice Dragon
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I wouldn't say they're bad, just limited.  Dazzle is an amazing effect really, Pain healers can decimate teams with ease.
I think the only real issue is that most have mediocre statlines, which isn't a big deal for a support role, but if you want to do anything else with them they need heavy investment.  It'd also be good if they did prfs for launch healers.  Personally I'd like it if Absorb were better but oh well, maybe Nanna or Lachesis can get a Earth Sword-ish staff as prfs someday.

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2 hours ago, AvatarofDiscord said:

1: Are they good to use?

Yes. They can Firesweep and do a variety of support roles.

2 hours ago, AvatarofDiscord said:

2: Do they compare well to other heroes?

Yes, they are in a pretty good spot right now. Their main competition comes from Firesweep archers who has access to Reposition, making them far easier to use for nuking purposes. Firesweep staff units lack access to Reposition, but what they gain in return is the ability to do a variety of things.

For a regular Player Phase team, you want to run a Firesweep archers most of the time. However, there are situations where you may need a staff unit's extra utility like healing, getting rid of debuffs, etc. for an Enemy Phase team or a less conventional Player Phase team.

2 hours ago, AvatarofDiscord said:

3: Do they need a kind of buff?

They do not really need any buffs, but gaining access to Reposition would be nice.

2 hours ago, AvatarofDiscord said:

4: Do they require more investment to be good than most heroes?

Depends on the mode, but generally no. Dazzling Staff Refinement is sufficient in most cases.

For PvP though, I do recommend getting Wrathful Staff or Dazzling Staff on the B slot so they can deal a decent amount of damage without taking too much time, but even then, if they are primarily used in just a support role and not offensively, then it is not necessary to run Wrathful Staff or Dazzling Staff on the B slot.

Edited by XRay
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All of the newer healers are fine. Even though not all of them have prf staves, they have generally good stat distributions and there are enough skills healers can take advantage of to do just fine. Also, pain+ is basically amazing. Melancholy+ and witchy wand+ are also great, if you can get them.

The earlier healers, like some of the launch day healers, are not as good out of the box. Some of them have wonky stat distributions, some of them are just not as good as newer healers anymore, and they probably need a bit more investment.

I don't think they necessarily need a buff as a class, but I'm sure some of the older healers like original Sakura or original Mist would appreciate having a prf staff or something.

Edited by Sunwoo
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12 minutes ago, Humanoid said:

I just want something better than Atk or Spd+3 to put in their A-slot that's available from 4-star fodder. (Not Brazens thanks)

Brady has Atk/Res Push.

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15 minutes ago, XRay said:

Brady has Atk/Res Push.

Oh nice, didn't realise because I think I've only pulled two copies ever. Now that he's down to 3* though I can hopefully start kitting out my old healers with it.

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Just now, Humanoid said:

Oh nice, didn't realise because I think I've only pulled two copies ever. Now that he's down to 3* though I can hopefully start kitting out my old healers with it.

Yeah, it can be difficult to try to summon for specific units.

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outside of the Trifecta of Healers: Veronica Fjorm Camilla, They are bad for PVP modes. Even the Trifecta will only be accepted by most players if they can run them with dancers.

Healer problems:

old gen1 healers lack the BST and personal weapon to be an asset to the Team unless you massively invest into them

Their support role in PVP mode is useless without a Dancer or Gravity or a PRF weapon. Simply by the fact that the Meta has evolved into charging specials fast and one shoting stuff.

in PVE they are ok. But even there most people will just use 3 Dancers and call it a day.

Do they need a buff? In the current Meta definitly, they are very far behind the curve when compared with Dancers.

Would they be more relevant? Definitly if you would restrict all Teambuilding to 1 Dancer only and bloat the HP stat so 1 shoting isnt that easy anymore.

Unless that happens Healers will mostly be crap unless its the Trifecta of healers.

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8 minutes ago, Hilda said:

outside of the Trifecta of Healers: Veronica Fjorm Camilla, They are bad for PVP modes. Even the Trifecta will only be accepted by most players if they can run them with dancers.

That is only from the perspective from offense. On defense, none of those healers are particularly scary with their default staves. AOTB!Veronica can be annoying, but an M!Corrin with a Refine provides enough buffs to offset the debuffs. The scary ones are Panic cavalry units who completely shuts down bonus buffs, and they still have a strong influence in Aether Raids meta today with Drives being the preferred form of buffs for supertanks. Attempting to run Res buffs to counter Ophelia runs the risk of being Panicked and Chilled, which would make Ophelia even more difficult to deal with.

11 minutes ago, Hilda said:

Their support role in PVP mode is useless without a Dancer or Gravity or a PRF weapon. Simply by the fact that the Meta has evolved into charging specials fast and one shoting stuff.

In Aether Raids offense, they are better than Firesweep archers when dealing with armor stall teams due to Pain having a higher damage output over an area. While I still see stall teams from time to time, I only remember seeing one armor stall team recently, so Pain staffers are a bit more niche. 

The meta has always been about charging Specials fast and one rounding things. Ever since I started answering questions here regularly after a few months the game was released, I have always recommended activating Specials during the first round of combat, during every round of combat, or as often as possible.

26 minutes ago, Hilda said:

Do they need a buff? In the current Meta definitly, they are very far behind the curve when compared with Dancers.

Dancers/Singers are the backbones of Player Phase teams though. Healers are the backbones of Enemy Phase units, but they do not have to be staff units, although staff units are usually the best and simplest option for that role.

For defense and Player Phase offense, they are more comparable to Firesweep archers. On defense, they are superior to Firesweep archers because they can deny bonus buff usage and shut down Counter-Vantage units. On Player Phase offense, Firesweep archers are generally better in most cases, but staff units still have their uses for less conventional Player Phase teams who would appreciate the healing and extra utility they provide.

For Enemy Phase offense, they are outclassed by Eir for during Light Season, but they can be useful on Astra Season if the player wants to keep their backline relatively open and does not want to run a Healing Tower (O).

42 minutes ago, Hilda said:

Would they be more relevant? Definitly if you would restrict all Teambuilding to 1 Dancer only and bloat the HP stat so 1 shoting isnt that easy anymore.

I am not sure it is a good idea to slow down the game since this is a mobile game that people often play on the go. What sets Heroes apart from the main series is that you can just whip out your phone on your commute (assuming you are not driving of course) and play a few quick maps to scratch that Fire Emblem itch.

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7 hours ago, XRay said:

 

I am not sure it is a good idea to slow down the game since this is a mobile game that people often play on the go. What sets Heroes apart from the main series is that you can just whip out your phone on your commute (assuming you are not driving of course) and play a few quick maps to scratch that Fire Emblem itch.

There is definitely a market for more demanding games. In fact many a feh player has moved on to games which require more time investment. And many of those that still play just log in for the daily bare minimum. I am not sure this is the best long-term approach (financially). The only time that I feel truly invested is when I am clearing the latest abyssal map which comes once a month - and I have been doing it with one and the same team all the time. 

 

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31 minutes ago, Endriu said:

There is definitely a market for more demanding games. In fact many a feh player has moved on to games which require more time investment. And many of those that still play just log in for the daily bare minimum. I am not sure this is the best long-term approach (financially). The only time that I feel truly invested is when I am clearing the latest abyssal map which comes once a month - and I have been doing it with one and the same team all the time. 

That is true, but that is what the main Fire Emblem series is for where you can sink more time into it.

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1 minute ago, Endriu said:

I mean mobile market

Hm... I am not sure if there are any TBS ones where you can sink hours into it. There are a lot of mobile RPGs that caters to that if the player does not mind switching genres.

While I have not played Langrisser, the time investment does not seem to be that much different from Heroes, although I could be wrong on that one. Polytopia is more akin to Civilization, but even that does not take really long either. There is Final Fantasy Tactics port if a player wants a more console-esque experience, but it does not have the frequent content updates that traditional mobile games have.

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4 minutes ago, XRay said:

Hm... I am not sure if there are any TBS ones where you can sink hours into it. There are a lot of mobile RPGs that caters to that if the player does not mind switching genres.

While I have not played Langrisser, the time investment does not seem to be that much different from Heroes, although I could be wrong on that one. Polytopia is more akin to Civilization, but even that does not take really long either. There is Final Fantasy Tactics port if a player wants a more console-esque experience, but it does not have the frequent content updates that traditional mobile games have.

Granted, most of the investment is mindless grind but it's related to resource management which can be fun and challenging for some people. You can play feh with just a couple of units and don't really miss much, lol. So much for a demanding game.

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9 hours ago, XRay said:

That is only from the perspective from offense. On defense, none of those healers are particularly scary with their default staves. AOTB!Veronica can be annoying, but an M!Corrin with a Refine provides enough buffs to offset the debuffs. The scary ones are Panic cavalry units who completely shuts down bonus buffs, and they still have a strong influence in Aether Raids meta today with Drives being the preferred form of buffs for supertanks. Attempting to run Res buffs to counter Ophelia runs the risk of being Panicked and Chilled, which would make Ophelia even more difficult to deal with.

In Aether Raids offense, they are better than Firesweep archers when dealing with armor stall teams due to Pain having a higher damage output over an area. While I still see stall teams from time to time, I only remember seeing one armor stall team recently, so Pain staffers are a bit more niche. 

The meta has always been about charging Specials fast and one rounding things. Ever since I started answering questions here regularly after a few months the game was released, I have always recommended activating Specials during the first round of combat, during every round of combat, or as often as possible.

Dancers/Singers are the backbones of Player Phase teams though. Healers are the backbones of Enemy Phase units, but they do not have to be staff units, although staff units are usually the best and simplest option for that role.

For defense and Player Phase offense, they are more comparable to Firesweep archers. On defense, they are superior to Firesweep archers because they can deny bonus buff usage and shut down Counter-Vantage units. On Player Phase offense, Firesweep archers are generally better in most cases, but staff units still have their uses for less conventional Player Phase teams who would appreciate the healing and extra utility they provide.

For Enemy Phase offense, they are outclassed by Eir for during Light Season, but they can be useful on Astra Season if the player wants to keep their backline relatively open and does not want to run a Healing Tower (O).

I am not sure it is a good idea to slow down the game since this is a mobile game that people often play on the go. What sets Heroes apart from the main series is that you can just whip out your phone on your commute (assuming you are not driving of course) and play a few quick maps to scratch that Fire Emblem itch.

you seem to contradict yourself alot on point 1. just 2 weeks ago you said that Healers cant punch through a supertank or through bulky unit

the chargin meta special makes healers obsolete because the tank in question fills up their HP with their special.

Healers also score like shit on Arena.

A Enemy phase unit still want a dancer, or do you see many runs clears in PVE PVP etc mode where there is a healer but no dancer?

The game has become really fucked lately (actually it was since the start, but its becomeing more apearant with the powercreep) and @Endriupointed out the event i am usually looking forward to is the Legendary/Mythic here battle.

There are only a few people that invest into Healers heavily (I am one of them), guess why? Because they arent the top of the line and need lots of investment to even come on equal terms interms of support with Dancers.

Recent Dancers are even steping into Healer land. Nils has an auto debuff, The Herons can heal their allies every turn, Legendary Azura is jsut bonkers, Peony adds so much mobility, and then there are the yet unreleased Dancers that can debuff units with Guard etc... yeah Healers are as a support class in a good shape my ass.

Edited by Hilda
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2 hours ago, Hilda said:

you seem to contradict yourself alot on point 1. just 2 weeks ago you said that Healers cant punch through a supertank or through bulky unit

the chargin meta special makes healers obsolete because the tank in question fills up their HP with their special.

Healers also score like shit on Arena.

A Enemy phase unit still want a dancer, or do you see many runs clears in PVE PVP etc mode where there is a healer but no dancer?

The game has become really fucked lately (actually it was since the start, but its becomeing more apearant with the powercreep) and @Endriupointed out the event i am usually looking forward to is the Legendary/Mythic here battle.

There are only a few people that invest into Healers heavily (I am one of them), guess why? Because they arent the top of the line and need lots of investment to even come on equal terms interms of support with Dancers.

Recent Dancers are even steping into Healer land. Nils has an auto debuff, The Herons can heal their allies every turn, Legendary Azura is jsut bonkers, Peony adds so much mobility, and then there are the yet unreleased Dancers that can debuff units with Guard etc... yeah Healers are as a support class in a good shape my ass.

I wouldn't necessarily call it fucked. It all depends on your expectations and ambitions. I recently went totally casual, yoloeing all my orbs to zero when I get them. Sometimes I left a pity rate behind but most of the time I got some great results. My expectations hit an all-time low. 

The problem is, after a certain stage, you don't feel properly rewarded for what your doing. When I clear the latest abyssal map, I feel rewarded, couldnt care less about the equipment, but I feel accomplished, intrinsically I believe, because I know this was some more or less hard content which some day 1 players struggle to clear on infernal.

Other than that there is nothing motivating left for me to do. I do 3x aa in a row on easy once per week for basic rewards. How many feathers and coins do I need anyway? 5orbs or 4 orbs per week from arena doesn't make a difference, especially if it all depends on a +10 bonus unit - guess thats where the feathers come in, lol. Yeah, why would I grind 1k level of tt? 10k feathers vs. 3k feathers? 220k points vs. 50k points? Thanks but no thanks. Same goes for pretty much anything else. 

Imo a game should make a player feel more invested - like for example how to make best use of stamina. Yeah, potions piling up...

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2 hours ago, Hilda said:

you seem to contradict yourself alot on point 1. just 2 weeks ago you said that Healers cant punch through a supertank or through bulky unit

They cannot, but you generally use them in conjunction with other nukes who can deal the killing blow. Firesweep archers can be used in that role too, but they generally pack just 1 Savage Blow if they use it at all, since you want to reduce the chance of activating Wings of Mercy on enemy units. I avoid Savage Blow on my BH!Lyn and run Atk Tactic instead, or Hone Cavalry depending on her allies.

In an armor stall team, there is not usually much going on, so you can just bring Pain to deal as much damage in wide area as possible; it's single target damage is not great, but it can deal 24 damage to enemies surrounding the target, much higher than Firesweep archers' 14 damage if they are packing 2 Savage Blows.

2 hours ago, Hilda said:

the chargin meta special makes healers obsolete because the tank in question fills up their HP with their special.

Running Noontime and Sol reduces a tank's damage output, and it is generally better to just run a damage Special and offload healing to a support unit.

Aether is not viable on a lot of units since they have to decide between running an A slot Breath and Distant Counter, and if they go Distant Counter, Aether would not be a reliable source of healing nor damage output. Some tanks can use Aether in conjunction with Distant Counter, but those are mostly armor units.

2 hours ago, Hilda said:

A Enemy phase unit still want a dancer, or do you see many runs clears in PVE PVP etc mode where there is a healer but no dancer?

I have not checked out other people's clears often, but when I use Enemy Phase teams, I generally do not use Dancers/Singers.

For Aether Raids, my super tank team does not use Dancers/Singers.

2 hours ago, Hilda said:

The game has become really fucked lately (actually it was since the start, but its becomeing more apearant with the powercreep) and @Endriupointed out the event i am usually looking forward to is the Legendary/Mythic here battle.

I am fine with the power creep. They have been buffing old units too.

2 hours ago, Hilda said:

There are only a few people that invest into Healers heavily (I am one of them), guess why? Because they arent the top of the line and need lots of investment to even come on equal terms interms of support with Dancers.

Due to how common they are in Aether Raids defense with just minimal Panic investment, I think they are in a pretty okay spot. They do not need a lot of investment to fulfill their primary function on defense, which is to cause Panic and force super tanks to rely on Drives instead of visible bonus buffs, and to help knock out Counter-Vantage units with Firesweep. Restore is also pretty cheap, and I fell for Restore traps quite a few times.

They excel in role compression. Not many units can Firesweep, heal, shutdown bonus buffs, and Restore trap all in one package, and that goes for every staff unit.

2 hours ago, Hilda said:

There are only a few people that invest into Healers heavily (I am one of them), guess why? Because they arent the top of the line and need lots of investment to even come on equal terms interms of support with Dancers.

For Player Phase teams, the only support unit they need are Dancers/Singers. They do not need any other support units. Some include DW!Berkut and Líf in their teams as alternative methods to get into Desperation range, but that is not super common.

2 hours ago, Hilda said:

Recent Dancers are even steping into Healer land. Nils has an auto debuff, The Herons can heal their allies every turn, Legendary Azura is jsut bonkers, Peony adds so much mobility, and then there are the yet unreleased Dancers that can debuff units with Guard etc... yeah Healers are as a support class in a good shape my ass.

Nils's Even Pulse Tie is not dependable since Ophelia is not always the one with the lowest HP. I gave my Nils Wings of Mercy.

I agree that Herons are stepping into that role, but they do not work well with most Player Phase teams for the same reasons.

VS!Azura's primary utility has been Sing and providing lots of bonus buffs, which is what most Dancers/Singers have been doing since the start of the game, so I do not think she is stepping on any staff unit's toes. The extra movement is nice and it makes her over the top, but the primary reason I use her is for the bonus buffs, not the movement increase.

Similarly for Peony, I do not think she is stepping on any staff unit's toes.

Triandra's Guard debuff is pretty nice, but Melancholy is still stronger since it can reverse charged Specials.

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I don't think healers are bad. 'Razzle dazzle' is still very powerful a thing and even aside from that they still have things like Melancholy or other stuff that gives them a good support role

My biggest problem with healers is just how boring they are. every 3/4 star healer feels the same thanks to healers having a limited skill pool.  Not only that, but the game also refuses to enter new staves into the 3/4 pool. Its the same panic/Pain/Gravity that we've been seeing since day 1. I think Valentine Silque had a new staff and thats it for the non 5 star exclusives. This makes me feel very underwhelmed when characters like Forrest or Mercedes enters the game or when I see the 10th interchangeable healer in a row when I go colourless.

I don't think a buff is neccesary. Just some variety. 

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30 minutes ago, Sasori said:

I don't think healers are bad. 'Razzle dazzle' is still very powerful a thing and even aside from that they still have things like Melancholy or other stuff that gives them a good support role

My biggest problem with healers is just how boring they are. every 3/4 star healer feels the same thanks to healers having a limited skill pool.  Not only that, but the game also refuses to enter new staves into the 3/4 pool. Its the same panic/Pain/Gravity that we've been seeing since day 1. I think Valentine Silque had a new staff and thats it for the non 5 star exclusives. This makes me feel very underwhelmed when characters like Forrest or Mercedes enters the game or when I see the 10th interchangeable healer in a row when I go colourless.

I don't think a buff is neccesary. Just some variety. 

I think the same is true for all 3-4* units. Just look at Ferdinand! No point in investing if you have Oscar +10. It's probably more conspicuous with healers because we don't get too many healer exclusives. They just cannot make 3-4* units too interesting. Ferdinand is a little bit lackluster atm but chances are he will get a refine in a year or two and will have his moment to shine. I am not sure healers ever got refined (?), and that just shows the limited options for healers, the few meaningful skills have to be given to exclusive units, who might actually get a refine (I think some healer exclusives did get a refine - not sure tho)

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41 minutes ago, Sasori said:

I don't think a buff is neccesary. Just some variety. 

Yeah, more variety would be nice.

Panic, Pain, and Gravity are really good though, but it would be nice to see Flash and Melancholy in the 3*/4* pool.

For Assists, I want to see an Assist that takes away HP (flat 30 damage would be ideal), so I have more of a reason to use them in a Player Phase team.

Their Specials could really use some variety. It would be nice to have more variety of Balms, like giving extra movement or maybe even Dance/Sing an ally. Or it could be debuffing the entire enemy team with debuffs, Guard, or other effects, so they do not have to venture out to the frontlines.

Edited by XRay
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3 minutes ago, XRay said:

Yeah, more variety would be nice.

Panic, Pain, and Gravity are really good though, but it would be nice to see Flash and Melancholy in the 3*/4* pool.

For Assists, I want to see an Assist that takes away HP (flat 30 damage would be ideal), so I have more of a reason to use them in a Player Phase team.

Their Specials could really use some variety. It would be nice to have more variety of Balms, like giving extra movement or maybe even Dance/Sing an ally. Or it could be debuffing the entire enemy team with debuffs, Guard, or other effects, so they do not have to venture out to the frontlines.

Gimmicky skills like these sound op - makes only sense for non-inheritable skills. Or who is gonna pull for a potential mythic/legendary healer if that one doesn't come with an op gimmick? Like an atk/spd +9 for everyone heal balm?

 

Edit: very bad example as balms can be inherited, lol

Edited by Endriu
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2 hours ago, Endriu said:

Gimmicky skills like these sound op - makes only sense for non-inheritable skills. Or who is gonna pull for a potential mythic/legendary healer if that one doesn't come with an op gimmick? Like an atk/spd +9 for everyone heal balm?

 

Edit: very bad example as balms can be inherited, lol

Damage dealing Assist would help staff units to mesh much better with Player Phase teams. Most Player Phase teams simply do not need staff units since a Firesweep archer is easier to use and more applicable to most situations, and you do not run the risk of accidentally taking your nukes out of Desperation range. And compared to DW!Berkut and Líf, a staff unit can only deal damage to one ally at a time, whereas DW!Berkut and Líf can set up the whole team at once.

I do not think Dance/Sing, movement buff, Guard debuff, and other debuffing Specials would be that bad, especially since it would be on a cooldown. Dance/Sing Special could be on a 2 or 3 cooldown. Other buffs and debuffs should be on a 1 cooldown like Balms though or else it is not really worth running it.

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3 hours ago, Endriu said:

I think the same is true for all 3-4* units. Just look at Ferdinand! No point in investing if you have Oscar +10. It's probably more conspicuous with healers because we don't get too many healer exclusives. They just cannot make 3-4* units too interesting. Ferdinand is a little bit lackluster atm but chances are he will get a refine in a year or two and will have his moment to shine. I am not sure healers ever got refined (?), and that just shows the limited options for healers, the few meaningful skills have to be given to exclusive units, who might actually get a refine (I think some healer exclusives did get a refine - not sure tho)

None of the Gen1 healers has gotten a personal weapon or refine. People assume because Healers can Firesweep their way through that they are in a fine position with Gravity/Pain/Panic staff, what they forget is that Healers sacrifice their B-Slot for this and have been limited in the refines (their refines give them no stat boost) and that its only worth on healers that actually can put out some numbers.
Due to this the other healers that actually are more support oriented are shafted into the limbo of "welp what will i do with you?". Exclusiv skills B-Slot or C-Slot skill that focus more on buffing and debuffing would give some healers a niche, but the need to be more potent and as a B-Skill work in Tandem with staves the healers have available.

I could see a B-Skill that doubles the amount of visible buffs a Healer gives out via staves or C-Skills (or balms).
I could see a B-Skill that adds another Debuff and doubles the amount of debuffs in tandem with Slow and Fear staves on foes.
I could see a B-Skill that gives out a debuff immunity buff to allies within 2 spaces
I could see a B-Skill that extends the range of Spur and Drive skills.

There are sooo many options but we are stuck with what we have...

Meanwhile Dancers can do their role (dancing) while buffing at the same time. Or attack if they want and wings of mercy/escape route the where they want and Galeforce their way into oblivion
Healers meanwhile need to pick between either healing or debuffing with their stave and their specials that  are mostly useless... uh yeah totally fair, not to mention if you want to wings of mercy escape route you give up the firesweep, 2 skills that are tremendously helpfull on Support units.

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