The Characterization of the Three Lords

[ordinaryunits]

9 hours ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

Both Edelgard and Dimitri actually only survive on their own routes, Claude is somehow always manage to find a way to survive and get the exact same ending, the only route he even can die is Crimson Flower and knowing that he can be spared. I don't know who exactly is going to decide to kill him. It is the same way with Flayn and Seteth for me. At least with Edelgard. She always dies of her own choice, someone pretty much always attempts to spare her and she rejects it. But in a way knowing that she could always survive if she made that decision and makes it even more tragic, but also easier to handle knowing this is what she wants. Dimitri either dies in a stupid fashion, essentially committing suicide in verdant wind or put down by Edelgard because he won't let go of his hatred. I have no idea what happens to him in silver snow.

I am not as much, saying that Edelgard is an incompetent commander as she isn't as great as Napoleon, but that man revolutionised military tactics in his era. I personally do prefer to fight wars only with overwhelming forces when I am sure of victory in games like civilisation. It is just that Edelgard always defer to Byleth when comes to military tactics, but Byleth is also basically invincible on the field, thanks to divine pulse. Plus, it is hard to argue that the campaign, where Byleth is with her isn't more successful. Kind of wonder what she was actually doing for those five years, where they weren't with her. 

I guess for all of Claude's lofty ambitions and ideals, he does not know what how to actually achieve them, maybe it is that unlike Edelgard he is under the illusion that they can be achieved without violence. I do admire Edelgard's bravery, even if it can get pretty ridiculous in scenarios where she is losing. But the girl just won't give up, no matter how bad things are going, she can have her entire army being taken out around her and she will still try to fight the entire enemy force just by herself. Even when her capital is taken and she only has the palace left she doesn't give up. And even does the whole Hegemon thing as a desperation move in a hopeless attempt to win, but as far as desperation moves go, Rhea did far worse. Edelgard only really hurt herself. It is exactly the same thing as Dedue did in Crimson Flower. So I have always found argued that this isn't necessarily an evil act, even if it is a reckless one. Even if she wins, it is possible that she won't be able to return from this at all. I think Edelgard can be so brave because she doesn't really place any value on her own life, she has absolutely no fear of death, she lives just for her cause, and have no real desire to exist beyond it. I think Byleth changed that when they joined her. They did give her a purpose to exist beyond changing the world

In silver snow dimitri ends up exactly like he did in verdant wind, but anyway I think that Edelgard and Dimitri's conviction to die in service of their ideals is both tragic and admirable in a way. It can be almost anticlimactic in other routes when claude just leaves for Almyra and I think it points out something interesting about his different values and his roles as an outsider. 

I didn't intend to say that she was incompetent either just that she is serviceable as a commander, whereas Napoleon was exceptional as you pointed out. I think its interesting to consider Byleths thematic role in the story even if he can be catatonic through most of it. In that his presence is integral to leading all three lords to their ideal futures and to even fixing some of the internal issues that Edelgard and Dimitri were grappling with. In a way I think its ironic that Edelgard is so starkly opposed to the church, yet she is so enamored by someone who is basically a second coming of the goddess. Although I suppose that you could argue that what she appreciates in byleth is his human qualities, but I still think she appreciates the components of him that came as a result of his shared body with Sothis. 

And it was interesting how dedue would resort to doing that in crimson flower drawing more parallels between him and hubert. Hubert and dedue seem to both go behind their leaders backs to perform acts to their benefit that the leaders wouldn't condone, but it seems that dedue doesn't resort to that as often just being the "sword" of dimitri

[Darkmoon6789]

2 hours ago, ordinaryunits said:

In silver snow dimitri ends up exactly like he did in verdant wind, but anyway I think that Edelgard and Dimitri's conviction to die in service of their ideals is both tragic and admirable in a way. It can be almost anticlimactic in other routes when claude just leaves for Almyra and I think it points out something interesting about his different values and his roles as an outsider. 

I didn't intend to say that she was incompetent either just that she is serviceable as a commander, whereas Napoleon was exceptional as you pointed out. I think its interesting to consider Byleths thematic role in the story even if he can be catatonic through most of it. In that his presence is integral to leading all three lords to their ideal futures and to even fixing some of the internal issues that Edelgard and Dimitri were grappling with. In a way I think its ironic that Edelgard is so starkly opposed to the church, yet she is so enamored by someone who is basically a second coming of the goddess. Although I suppose that you could argue that what she appreciates in byleth is his human qualities, but I still think she appreciates the components of him that came as a result of his shared body with Sothis. 

And it was interesting how dedue would resort to doing that in crimson flower drawing more parallels between him and hubert. Hubert and dedue seem to both go behind their leaders backs to perform acts to their benefit that the leaders wouldn't condone, but it seems that dedue doesn't resort to that as often just being the "sword" of dimitri

I think it was stated that Edelgard is unaware of Byleth's connection to Sothis, but they do believe that they are one of the children of the goddess, something I frequently use as evidence that Edelgard does not desire to destroy the entire species, she just don't want and ruling over humanity like Rhea. But yes, it is ironic that Edelgard would essentially fall in love with someone who is essentially a holy champion originally meant to fight for the opposing side.

If you really look at it, Edelgard and Byleth are the same, they are both experiments imbued with divine power and groomed to serve a particular role by their respective side. Rhea intending Byleth to be a vessel for Sothis and take their place as ruler of the world, the Agarthans intending Edelgard to be a weapon, they can use to destroy their ancient enemies, bringing about "salvation". Destined to be enemies, yet Edelgard and Byleth decided they had more in common with each other and rejected the roles put upon them by others. At the end of the day, I do think that what Rhea did with Byleth is pretty much the same thing as the Agarthans did with Edelgard, just less torture involved in their creation. But in both cases, neither are really given the freedom to be their own person. Due to the expectations placed upon them.

[ordinaryunits]

9 hours ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

I think it was stated that Edelgard is unaware of Byleth's connection to Sothis, but they do believe that they are one of the children of the goddess, something I frequently use as evidence that Edelgard does not desire to destroy the entire species, she just don't want and ruling over humanity like Rhea. But yes, it is ironic that Edelgard would essentially fall in love with someone who is essentially a holy champion originally meant to fight for the opposing side.

If you really look at it, Edelgard and Byleth are the same, they are both experiments imbued with divine power and groomed to serve a particular role by their respective side. Rhea intending Byleth to be a vessel for Sothis and take their place as ruler of the world, the Agarthans intending Edelgard to be a weapon, they can use to destroy their ancient enemies, bringing about "salvation". Destined to be enemies, yet Edelgard and Byleth decided they had more in common with each other and rejected the roles put upon them by others. At the end of the day, I do think that what Rhea did with Byleth is pretty much the same thing as the Agarthans did with Edelgard, just less torture involved in their creation. But in both cases, neither are really given the freedom to be their own person. Due to the expectations placed upon them.

Oh that's interesting to think about, I really hadn't considered the parallels between Edelgard and Byleth in that way even though it was right in front of my face lol. What Rhea did to byleth was definitely unethical, especially because she might have initially planned for the vessel of the goddess to be erased by her coming. I think that most of Rhea's unethical behavior occurred because her mental state deteriorated over time, either from the trauma of her race effectively being exterminated or just the natural deterioration of the manakete in the rest of the series. I think edelgard addresses the fact that she and byleth probably weren't meant to be together in the crimson flower route.

[Darkmoon6789]

13 minutes ago, ordinaryunits said:

Oh that's interesting to think about, I really hadn't considered the parallels between Edelgard and Byleth in that way even though it was right in front of my face lol. What Rhea did to byleth was definitely unethical, especially because she might have initially planned for the vessel of the goddess to be erased by her coming. I think that most of Rhea's unethical behavior occurred because her mental state deteriorated over time, either from the trauma of her race effectively being exterminated or just the natural deterioration of the manakete in the rest of the series. I think edelgard addresses the fact that she and byleth probably weren't meant to be together in the crimson flower route.

So dragons having a deteriorating mental state, the older they get is a reoccuring thing in the series? I would agree her mental state isn't that great and is getting worse with time. I do feel really sorry for her, but there is no denying that she is a danger. I kind of think the worst thing Rhea ever created was the chalice of beginnings, it is essentially blood magic of the worst kind, requiring human sacrifices to work and what it actually does when it does work is either reviving only the body as some kind of undead abomination or create a huge dragon-like monstrosity. I think that should summarise what kind of magic Rhea is dabbling in, between this and putting the spirit of Sothis within Byleth. She is pretty much performing straight up necromancy. She truly is desperate to see her mother again.

Also, maybe Edelgard and Byleth weren't meant to be together, letting my opinion they are still of the cutest couple in the entire game, never seen chemistry with this great between anyone else. Edelgard is still adorable when it comes to Byleth, even when she is their enemy. That kind of makes me think that, despite often times being on opposite sides, Edelgard is still Byleth's soulmate. So maybe they were meant to join Edelgard after all. To me this is the only outcome but doesn't feel wrong. It is too bad that you can't save her and Dimitri, honestly, I would have spared Dimitri in Crimson flower if that was an option, if that makes you feel better. I kind of wish he was able to see past his hatred in Crimson Flower , or at least direct his anger towards those actually responsible for the tragedy of Duscur.

[darkblade2814]

9 hours ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

So dragons having a deteriorating mental state, the older they get is a reoccuring thing in the series? I would agree her mental state isn't that great and is getting worse with time. I do feel really sorry for her, but there is no denying that she is a danger. I kind of think the worst thing Rhea ever created was the chalice of beginnings, it is essentially blood magic of the worst kind, requiring human sacrifices to work and what it actually does when it does work is either reviving only the body as some kind of undead abomination or create a huge dragon-like monstrosity. I think that should summarise what kind of magic Rhea is dabbling in, between this and putting the spirit of Sothis within Byleth. She is pretty much performing straight up necromancy. She truly is desperate to see her mother again.

Also, maybe Edelgard and Byleth weren't meant to be together, letting my opinion they are still of the cutest couple in the entire game, never seen chemistry with this great between anyone else. Edelgard is still adorable when it comes to Byleth, even when she is their enemy. That kind of makes me think that, despite often times being on opposite sides, Edelgard is still Byleth's soulmate. So maybe they were meant to join Edelgard after all. To me this is the only outcome but doesn't feel wrong. It is too bad that you can't save her and Dimitri, honestly, I would have spared Dimitri in Crimson flower if that was an option, if that makes you feel better. I kind of wish he was able to see past his hatred in Crimson Flower , or at least direct his anger towards those actually responsible for the tragedy of Duscur.

Medeus, Duma, Milla and Anankhos were all victms of the dragon degeneration, so yeah, It happens often, this os why dragonstones exist, of the dragon Seal their Power in them If they do It before the degenerativo kickd in, they are sede, but If they do after It starts It Just delay the unavoidable

[Etrurian emperor]

On 4/24/2020 at 5:31 AM, Darkmoon6789 said:

I am rather certain Edelgard doesn't have any policies about ethnic cleansing and she is most definitely not a racist as demonstrated by her openness to open up diplomatic affairs with Almyra. The only similarity she have to Hitler at all is that she started a war, that is it. The Napoleon comparison makes sense, but as you say, I do think Edelgard is more benevolent press, even if I give the edge to Napoleon as a military tactician. Napoleon was literally a military genius, Edelgard's ace when it comes to military tactics really is Byleth. I don't think she is personally anywhere near that level, she frequently gets defeated in other routes with way superior military forces. Of course Dimitri in his state of blind rage wasn't exactly a great tactician, but the most clever of three is definitely Claude. Edelgard's tactics aren't bad, but they aren't anything exceptional.

While not the worlds greatest tactician Edelgard likely has an incredibly mind for strategy and political scheming. Three out of four routs has her easily, almost casually dismantle Fearghus very shortly after her assault on the church. And it mostly didn't even require a battle with Cornelia taking out Dimitri and the western Kingdom nobles just rolling out the red carpet for Edelgard. In Crimson Flower she also has a strategy in mind that takes the disunity of the Alliance into account. 

So Edelgard seems more of a strategist then a tactician. Rather then the flashy miraculous battlefield victories of Caesar she's more of a Pompey who expertly uses every bit of the advantage she has and just doesn't fight before already stacking the odds in her favor. 

But it should be noted that if Byleth leaves everyone to their own devices then Edelgard does win the battle of Grondor. Its technically a draw but with Dimitri dead and Claude fleeing back to Almyra she's pretty much the de facto victor. So as far as tactical prowess goes Edelgard might be better then Claude and crazy Dimitri. 

[Blackstarskywalker]

3 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

While not the worlds greatest tactician Edelgard likely has an incredibly mind for strategy and political scheming. Three out of four routs has her easily, almost casually dismantle Fearghus very shortly after her assault on the church. And it mostly didn't even require a battle with Cornelia taking out Dimitri and the western Kingdom nobles just rolling out the red carpet for Edelgard. In Crimson Flower she also has a strategy in mind that takes the disunity of the Alliance into account. 

So Edelgard seems more of a strategist then a tactician. Rather then the flashy miraculous battlefield victories of Caesar she's more of a Pompey who expertly uses every bit of the advantage she has and just doesn't fight before already stacking the odds in her favor. 

But it should be noted that if Byleth leaves everyone to their own devices then Edelgard does win the battle of Grondor. Its technically a draw but with Dimitri dead and Claude fleeing back to Almyra she's pretty much the de facto victor. So as far as tactical prowess goes Edelgard might be better then Claude and crazy Dimitri. 

Not necessarily winning a battle makes you a better strategist / tactician, sometimes you can win with enough resources. I do not mean by this that Edelgard is not a good strategist, in fact in this field she seems to me better than Dimitri, but I still have the doubt regarding Claude. According to the creators of the game, Claude is a combination of Yang Wenli with another character that I don't remember. Yang Wenli is one of the protagonists of the anime Legend of the Galactic Heroes, he was a master of strategy who never lost a battle. As a fan of anime and Wenli, I do not see Claude in that category either. He is smart and cunning, yes.

[Darkmoon6789]

20 minutes ago, Blackstarskywalker said:

Not necessarily winning a battle makes you a better strategist / tactician, sometimes you can win with enough resources. I do not mean by this that Edelgard is not a good strategist, in fact in this field she seems to me better than Dimitri, but I still have the doubt regarding Claude. According to the creators of the game, Claude is a combination of Yang Wenli with another character that I don't remember. Yang Wenli is one of the protagonists of the anime Legend of the Galactic Heroes, he was a master of strategy who never lost a battle. As a fan of anime and Wenli, I do not see Claude in that category either. He is smart and cunning, yes.

I would also give Claude the edge. Thanks to doing things like setting most of the imperial army on fire when he was battling Randolph and pulling a Trojan horse manoeuver in infiltrating whatever that fortress city defended by the Death Knight was called. 

Never meant to imply that Edelgard was a bad tactician, she isn't. She has a bunch of early victories, but she oftentimes feel to capitalise on them. I kind of think that she should have been able to end the war already in most routes given her current advantage. Granted, I am not certain I can attribute to the fall of Farghus to her as this was mostly done by Cornelia dismantling it from within, I am also not certain the dukedom is actually a positive thing for the Edelgard as they will become a later enemy and the Agarthans might actually be too powerful to defeat in these timelines. It has been established in the past that the Agarthans are actually rather well versed at military strategy, given that Pan, the most celebrated general under King Loog was in all likelihood an Agarthan. As a principal I generally do not attribute things done by the Agarthans to Edelgard, the are completely different factions in my mind. 

I do have a friend that insists that Edelgard isn't that bright because of how badly she handled PR in the first half of the game. Essentially, making points such as that she really goes out of her way to make herself look like a villain by having a subordinate calling themselves the Death Knight, as well as her association with the Agarthans reflects on her quite badly as she often gets blamed for their actions. But I am not so certain she had much of a choice in this matter and it is mostly just a series of coincidences and bad luck.  I consider Edelgard quite a smart girl, but she isn't perfect. I also think Byleth is pretty hard to defeat as they can essentially undo any mistake they do in the field, picking the one timeline where you lose the hardest to become reality. It is pretty hard to beat a general with divine pulse, which is why they appear to have such an unnatural eye for tactics.

[Blackstarskywalker]

5 hours ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

I would also give Claude the edge. Thanks to doing things like setting most of the imperial army on fire when he was battling Randolph and pulling a Trojan horse manoeuver in infiltrating whatever that fortress city defended by the Death Knight was called. 

Never meant to imply that Edelgard was a bad tactician, she isn't. She has a bunch of early victories, but she oftentimes feel to capitalise on them. I kind of think that she should have been able to end the war already in most routes given her current advantage. Granted, I am not certain I can attribute to the fall of Farghus to her as this was mostly done by Cornelia dismantling it from within, I am also not certain the dukedom is actually a positive thing for the Edelgard as they will become a later enemy and the Agarthans might actually be too powerful to defeat in these timelines. It has been established in the past that the Agarthans are actually rather well versed at military strategy, given that Pan, the most celebrated general under King Loog was in all likelihood an Agarthan. As a principal I generally do not attribute things done by the Agarthans to Edelgard, the are completely different factions in my mind. 

I do have a friend that insists that Edelgard isn't that bright because of how badly she handled PR in the first half of the game. Essentially, making points such as that she really goes out of her way to make herself look like a villain by having a subordinate calling themselves the Death Knight, as well as her association with the Agarthans reflects on her quite badly as she often gets blamed for their actions. But I am not so certain she had much of a choice in this matter and it is mostly just a series of coincidences and bad luck.  I consider Edelgard quite a smart girl, but she isn't perfect. I also think Byleth is pretty hard to defeat as they can essentially undo any mistake they do in the field, picking the one timeline where you lose the hardest to become reality. It is pretty hard to beat a general with divine pulse, which is why they appear to have such an unnatural eye for tactics.

 

5 hours ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

I would also give Claude the edge. Thanks to doing things like setting most of the imperial army on fire when he was battling Randolph and pulling a Trojan horse manoeuver in infiltrating whatever that fortress city defended by the Death Knight was called. 

Never meant to imply that Edelgard was a bad tactician, she isn't. She has a bunch of early victories, but she oftentimes feel to capitalise on them. I kind of think that she should have been able to end the war already in most routes given her current advantage. Granted, I am not certain I can attribute to the fall of Farghus to her as this was mostly done by Cornelia dismantling it from within, I am also not certain the dukedom is actually a positive thing for the Edelgard as they will become a later enemy and the Agarthans might actually be too powerful to defeat in these timelines. It has been established in the past that the Agarthans are actually rather well versed at military strategy, given that Pan, the most celebrated general under King Loog was in all likelihood an Agarthan. As a principal I generally do not attribute things done by the Agarthans to Edelgard, the are completely different factions in my mind. 

I do have a friend that insists that Edelgard isn't that bright because of how badly she handled PR in the first half of the game. Essentially, making points such as that she really goes out of her way to make herself look like a villain by having a subordinate calling themselves the Death Knight, as well as her association with the Agarthans reflects on her quite badly as she often gets blamed for their actions. But I am not so certain she had much of a choice in this matter and it is mostly just a series of coincidences and bad luck.  I consider Edelgard quite a smart girl, but she isn't perfect. I also think Byleth is pretty hard to defeat as they can essentially undo any mistake they do in the field, picking the one timeline where you lose the hardest to become reality. It is pretty hard to beat a general with divine pulse, which is why they appear to have such an unnatural eye for tactics.

The theme is trust. It seems normal to me that Edelgard does not trust Dimitri and Claude to explain her plans. They are people with very different ideas and thoughts. So the path she traced is fine with me.
 
 

[SSbardock84]

THE BOAR PRINCE!! I didn't watch the video, but I died of laughter seeing the Dimitri boar.

[Darkmoon6789]

4 hours ago, Blackstarskywalker said:

 

The theme is trust. It seems normal to me that Edelgard does not trust Dimitri and Claude to explain her plans. They are people with very different ideas and thoughts. So the path she traced is fine with me.
 
 

It just comes down to Edelgard not having perfect judgement, but she is well-intentioned. Plus, my friend has only played up to the Flame Emperor reveal. So he could change his mind. By the way, this is a different friend from the one who is on these forums. I know more than one person who is currently playing through three houses.

 

3 minutes ago, SSbardock84 said:

THE BOAR PRINCE!! I didn't watch the video, but I died of laughter seeing the Dimitri boar.

I know, that is hilarious. 

[ordinaryunits]

 

22 hours ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

It just comes down to Edelgard not having perfect judgement, but she is well-intentioned. Plus, my friend has only played up to the Flame Emperor reveal. So he could change his mind. By the way, this is a different friend from the one who is on these forums. I know more than one person who is currently playing through three houses.

The aspect of trust is interesting especially considering Claude and his themes, where he literally has a speech that talks about the importance of people working together to overcome their burdens in life. And i think that could also be one of edelgard's tragic flaws where she doesn't trust enough people and makes unnecessary enemies. That's probably why claude regretted the way that things turned out in the verdant wind route. Because I really don't think that edelgard and claude are too incompatible.

[Darkmoon6789]

2 minutes ago, ordinaryunits said:

 

The aspect of trust is interesting especially considering Claude and his themes, where he literally has a speech that talks about the importance of people working together to overcome their burdens in life. And i think that could also be one of edelgard's tragic flaws where she doesn't trust enough people and makes unnecessary enemies. That's probably why claude regretted the way that things turned out in the verdant wind route. Because I really don't think that edelgard and claude are too incompatible.

I actually do think that Edelgard could possibly convinced Claude to join her with the right arguments. One of my friends did point out that one problem Edelgard have is that she usually assumes someone won't understand and don't even bother explaining herself properly. most of the time. Edelgard and Claude actually do have a lot in common. They even have similar views on Almyra. The thing is that if Edelgard had the support of the alliance from the beginning, the war would be less costly as her forces would be more overwhelming and win the war faster. But maybe her alliance with the Agarthans made an alliance with Claude impossible, and it wouldn't be easy for her to get out of her association with them.

While I do think the versions of Edelgard in all routs are very similar when it comes to their morality. I have noticed one primary difference between the version in Crimson flower and in other places. 

Edelgard says this in Azure Moon: "if the people are weak. It is only because we are too used to relying on others instead of on themselves"

Comparing this to Crimson flower Edelgard when she says this: "when humanity stand strong and people reach out for eachother, there is no need for God's".

One version of Edelgard to understand the value on relying on others and the strength that can provide. Azure Moon Edelgard has really no one she really trusts and therefore is more self-reliant. Which is also why she has trouble trusting people and really opening up to them about her motivations and what she really feels. I think that Azure Moon Edelgard is making the assumption that no one will understand and therefore doesn't even try to make them understand. This changes if Byleth actually shows them, but they do trust her, and becomes the emotional pillar she can lean against.

While it might be too late to prevent possibly unnecessary casualties during the war, Crimson flower Edelgard do learn to trust over the course of the story, and this will benefit as Emperor of Fodlan in the future. Maybe if she were like this at the start of the story. Maybe things would be different. The fact that this Edelgard actually trusts people might make all the difference.

[vikingsfan92]

On 4/26/2020 at 9:24 PM, Darkmoon6789 said:

I actually do think that Edelgard could possibly convinced Claude to join her with the right arguments. One of my friends did point out that one problem Edelgard have is that she usually assumes someone won't understand and don't even bother explaining herself properly. most of the time. Edelgard and Claude actually do have a lot in common. They even have similar views on Almyra. The thing is that if Edelgard had the support of the alliance from the beginning, the war would be less costly as her forces would be more overwhelming and win the war faster. But maybe her alliance with the Agarthans made an alliance with Claude impossible, and it wouldn't be easy for her to get out of her association with them.

Personally I think Claude presents as much if not more of a challenge to ally with as anyone else. For one thing the alliance as a whole is complicated when it comes to the war.  They make it a point to say Claude is master of tactics just to hold the alliance together through out the timeskip.  The alliance was pretty evenly split on which side to support during the timeskip so Claude outright choosing either side could result in an Alliance Civil war.   So even before of any of his personal views come into play he has to somehow sell the side of his own faction that he is not pleasing with the choice on the decision.  Either choice angers a ton of people in his faction and I doubt everyone is willing to give him a free pass for it.

And then he has his own personal ambitions he wants to accomplish.  And I think he might not feel he can accomplish them by teaming up with either side tbh.

[Darkmoon6789]

1 hour ago, vikingsfan92 said:

Personally I think Claude presents as much if not more of a challenge to ally with as anyone else. For one thing the alliance as a whole is complicated when it comes to the war.  They make it a point to say Claude is master of tactics just to hold the alliance together through out the timeskip.  The alliance was pretty evenly split on which side to support during the timeskip so Claude outright choosing either side could result in an Alliance Civil war.   So even before of any of his personal views come into play he has to somehow sell the side of his own faction that he is not pleasing with the choice on the decision.  Either choice angers a ton of people in his faction and I doubt everyone is willing to give him a free pass for it.

And then he has his own personal ambitions he wants to accomplish.  And I think he might not feel he can accomplish them by teaming up with either side tbh.

Good point, I guess the alliance couldn't put themselves entirely behind Edelgard without first going to war with itself, granted they seemed to do that a lot anyway. I kind of forgot about that.

This is also the reason why I think the alliance is better off being part of the Empire, just think about it, does it really benefit the common people that the alliance is ruled by a council of lords rather than a single monarch? It just creates a nation constantly in conflict with itself, the common people, slaves to the whims the likes of of Acheron and Gloucester. I don't think unity is always bad and the Leicester alliance could benefit from a more stable rule, especially under a benevolent Emperor like Edelgard. 

It is unfortunate, but if you are right, I guess Edelgard made the right decision in not trying to make an alliance with Claude.

[meteorblade]

I want to talk more about Claude as I'm a few chapters from being done his route.

I feel like Claude could get along with either Edelgard or Dimitri, however it's mostly pointed out that his ideals aren't so far from Edelgards because both of them wish to rebuild the system whereas Dimitri wishes to improve it for the people. I'll be honest and say I like Claude's way of doing things the most, I like his ideals the most and his dream because he doesn't want anyone else to suffer on silly prejudices imposed with really no proof.

After the Golden Scheme, Lorenz hints to how most children in Fodlan are raised: to think the church is the only way, to get rid of dissenters, to believe that outsiders and nonbelievers are bad and wrong. How far can this really get society? Fodlan is basically closed off because of the church. This is why I want Claude to open the borders, and to be honest I don't think either Edelgard nor Dimitri would be against relations with Almyra because 1. they know Claude and 2. They both want whats best for the people, even if they think differently about what the best is. The main thing is that Claude and Edelgard don't think the church is necessary but Dimitri states it should be kept for the believers.

[Darkmoon6789]

5 minutes ago, catsorbet said:

I want to talk more about Claude as I'm a few chapters from being done his route.

I feel like Claude could get along with either Edelgard or Dimitri, however it's mostly pointed out that his ideals aren't so far from Edelgards because both of them wish to rebuild the system whereas Dimitri wishes to improve it for the people. I'll be honest and say I like Claude's way of doing things the most, I like his ideals the most and his dream because he doesn't want anyone else to suffer on silly prejudices imposed with really no proof.

After the Golden Scheme, Lorenz hints to how most children in Fodlan are raised: to think the church is the only way, to get rid of dissenters, to believe that outsiders and nonbelievers are bad and wrong. How far can this really get society? Fodlan is basically closed off because of the church. This is why I want Claude to open the borders, and to be honest I don't think either Edelgard nor Dimitri would be against relations with Almyra because 1. they know Claude and 2. They both want whats best for the people, even if they think differently about what the best is. The main thing is that Claude and Edelgard don't think the church is necessary but Dimitri states it should be kept for the believers.

Pretty much, Edelgard even states in her paralogue that she desires diplomatic relations with Almyra, she even pretty much makes the claim that the only reason conflict with Almyra exists is due to the church's harmful attitude towards those of a different religion and culture. I definitely imagine that in Crimson flower that both Edelgard and Claude would get along well in the future as leaders of their respective nations. I am uncertain if she would go as far as open the borders completely, but I do believe that Claude and Edelgard would work together against prejudice and strengthen the ties between the two nations. 

You know, the only thing that prevents me from making the claim that verdant wind is the best ending is that there is such a ridiculous number of major characters who dies in this route. Dimitri, Edelgard, and Rhea all perish which are the highest out of any path. A drawback that has nothing to do with how good the ending state of the world is. I think it accomplishes pretty much the same as Crimson flower does with more of an emphasis on uniting the world instead of just Fodlan. But Crimson flower only has the deaths of Dimitri and Rhea. If you assume the minimum number of possible deaths is what really occurred. I also think that a world that is both Edelgard and Claude in it is better than just Claude alone. 

One thing I have realised is that the church seem to propagate conflict with the world outside of Fodlan. Thanks to its beliefs. Which means that the war might indeed lead to less conflict with other nations in the future as both Claude and Edelgard makes changes to minimise the risk of such aggression. Edelgard really doesn't seem interested in conquering any more than the kingdom and the alliance. I do think a post-war Edelgard would also likely be sick of war and want to avoid it in the future. Plus, I really love the idea of Edelgard as the Emperor of Fodlan and Claude as the king of Almyra being close friends in this future

[Blackstarskywalker]

I also believe that on the VW route, if Claude agrees to make the necessary changes, I see no reason for Edelgard to have to die. They have a very similar vision, on issues such as progress and freedoms for society

[vikingsfan92]

13 minutes ago, Blackstarskywalker said:

I also believe that on the VW route, if Claude agrees to make the necessary changes, I see no reason for Edelgard to have to die. They have a very similar vision, on issues such as progress and freedoms for society

Tbh I think that more comes down to the writers than anything  else.  Alot of stories seem to have the notion that characters who you fight once or twice have to die. There are countless examples in other big franchises in both western and eastern cultures where rather than go into it more they just up and kill of the charcter usually by sacrificing themselves. Frankly I want to see this trend go away and not just with fire emblem.

Edited April 28, 2020 by vikingsfan92

[darkblade2814]

46 minutes ago, Blackstarskywalker said:

I also believe that on the VW route, if Claude agrees to make the necessary changes, I see no reason for Edelgard to have to die. They have a very similar vision, on issues such as progress and freedoms for society

If i remember correctly, they talk before the battle, they agree it's too late to change things, and she dies because the wounds she sustains are to much, she dies asking to not be alone and regretting Byealth not siding with her (my memory is a bit faulty right now, I just woke up from an afternoon nap)

Edited April 28, 2020 by darkblade2814

[Darkmoon6789]

19 minutes ago, darkblade2814 said:

If i remember correctly, they talk before the battle, they agree it's too late to change things, and she dies because the wounds she sustains are to much, she dies asking to not be alone and regretting Byealth not siding with her (my memory is a bit faulty right now, I just woke up from an afternoon nap)

She literally begs for Byleth to kill her, while stating that only her death would immediately end the fighting across the continent, making the case for why the future of Fodlan lies across her grave. In every route she essentially chooses to die, she could have survived in any route if she really wanted to, it is just that she prefers dying for the cause, then leaving the rest of her life in captivity. She fears that more than anything because of her past

[darkblade2814]

7 minutes ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

She literally begs for Byleth to kill her, while stating that only her death would immediately end the fighting across the continent, making the case for why the future of Fodlan lies across her grave. In every route she essentially chooses to die, she could have survived in any route if she really wanted to, it is just that she prefers dying for the cause, then leaving the rest of her life in captivity. She fears that more than anything because of her past

which make sense, given what Thales did to her, Thales is pretty high on my List of Video game Villains I love to beat the c**p out, seriously, he as one of the most depraved villains in FE history (and that is saying a lot)

[Blackstarskywalker]

1 hour ago, darkblade2814 said:

If i remember correctly, they talk before the battle, they agree it's too late to change things, and she dies because the wounds she sustains are to much, she dies asking to not be alone and regretting Byealth not siding with her (my memory is a bit faulty right now, I just woke up from an afternoon nap)

But they use in the same animation that in the route SS ?. Because that scene makes a lot of sense in SS. In their first meeting, after the time skip, Edelgard tells Byleth that in their next meeting one of them will die in combat. So in a world where the church gains and maintains the status quo, I understand that she wants to die. So I think that on that route she has a good ending as an antagonist.

[Crysta]

In their dialogue she acknowledges that Claude's ideals are not far removed from her own but she can't entrust Fodlan to him because he isn't familiar with the history of Fodlan like she is. She outright refuses to surrender after Claude literally pleads for her to do so.

Self-righteousness and arrogance are pretty much why she has to die in that route. The recycled cutscene is cool, but... she's her own worst enemy a lot of the time.

Edited April 29, 2020 by Crysta

[Darkmoon6789]

7 minutes ago, Crysta said:

In their dialogue she acknowledges that Claude's ideals are not far removed from her own but she can't entrust Fodlan to him because he isn't familiar with the history of Fodlan like she is. She outright refuses to surrender after Claude literally pleads for her to do so.

Self-righteousness and arrogance are pretty much why she has to die in that route. The recycled cutscene is cool, but... she's her own worst enemy a lot of the time.

She can definitely be her own worst enemy, especially when it comes to her ridiculous stubbornness in refusing to surrender, no matter how dire the situation. I sometimes wonder if she could have actually survived in verdant wind especially if it wasn't for her own insistence to die. Still, I do believe that there are multiple reasons for why she does this, one of them is the reason stated that she believes that her death will prevent more unnecessary casualties. The second is that she is afraid that her enemies will put her in a cell in similar conditions at Thales used to keep her in. The third reason is that she is the kind of person who believes it is noble to die for your cause. There is also a possibility that she chooses to die out of not being able to handle the guilt of all the lives lost in the war. If she knows that their deaths was for nothing, only through victory could she justify these casualties as meaningful. So choosing to die is in a way, are taking responsibility for the lives lost in the war, many has died for her and she is willing to do the same.

The question is if her fears of being treated badly by Claude or Dimitri if she loses and surrenders are founded or not. I don't actually think so, it is pretty obvious to me, but by this point in time, neither Claude or Dimitri have an actual grudge against her, so it is mostly down to Edelgard being psychologically scarred from her previous experiences. She actually makes reference in Azure Moon to that she feels that Edelgard actually died many years ago in that cell, she pretty much has no fear of death because she has no other reason to live other than her cause. She kind of seems depressed and suicidal. 

"Even if one clings to their faith, the goddess will never answer them, countless souls will be lost that way, living without purpose., I can be counted towards those who have died that way as well. But that is why I must change the world on the behalf of the silent and weak."

As for the arrogance and self-righteousness, Edelgard actually describes herself as arrogant in her introduction, but what kind of truly arrogant person does that? She also says this particular line during the debate with Dimitri in Azure Moon:

"Maybe it is self-righteousness, but it doesn't matter, someone needs to take action and put a stop to this world's endless bloodstained history"

Edelgard seems quite self aware of her flaws. And she has a point, you can't truly expect doing nothing to have any real effect on solving the problems of Fodlan. Which in my view is essentially what Dimitri is suggesting, that the ruler should do nothing, even if they have the power to change things. So in my view Dimitri's adherence to his own values blinds him to the truth of the situation. They are the same in this manner, both are absolutely convinced they are in the right.

There is also one more thing, with Edelgard that I should mention, you remember this line?

"These sacrifices will allow us to create the future will never need sacrifice again, it may seem contradictory but it is the only way". 

Just another statement that shows Edelgard's self-awareness when it comes to the contradictions in her own philosophy. It is just that she believes that it is only contradictory on a surface level and that in reality, her methods are the only method she believes will work.

I honestly feel really sorry for Edelgard, even if I believed she was wrong. I do think she has a good heart, and for that reason, she is not deserving of the hate she gets. Edelgard might look bad at the surface level, which is usually why some people hate her in the story as well, they just look at how things seem on the surface, but once you go deeper, you will realise that Edelgard isn't who she first appears to be. The ironic thing is that it does seem like the harm she causes to Fodlan is actually motivated by caring too much about people. Which is why she is such a tragic figure. Even when she wins she will have to deal with the burden of having so many deaths on her conscience for the rest of her life. Something that is eating her alive, due to the fact that she isn't a bad person at heart.