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Alright I'll throw in my hat in the ring. I like Edlgard, but simply I agree more with Rhea. I sympathise with her cause more than I can agree with Edlgard's. For me, Edlgard is a sypathetic take on a Walhart character, but I feel what made Walhart so good is you couldn't sympathize with him. He demands your respect, not your sympathy.

Spoiler

I also really like Flayn, so I'll side with her more anyway.

 

Edited by Sir Wolfram of Vallora

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21 minutes ago, Sir Wolfram of Vallora said:

Alright I'll throw in my hat in the ring. I dislike Edlgard simply because I agree more with Rhea. I sympathise with her cause more than I can agree with Edlgard's. For me, Edlgard is a sypathetic take on a Walhart character, but I feel what made Walhart so good is you couldn't sympathize with him. He demands your respect, not your sympathy.

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I also really like Flayn, so I'll side with her more anyway.

 

The opposite also the case. I can't sympathize with Rhea because she had time to learn to be happy with others and move past her trauma. She had people like Wilhelm, whom she exhibits affection towards even after a thousand years, and many people that were loyal to her. She could create living creatures like Sitri and others, but rather than have them be her family, she made them them only to serve as tools to revive her mother. 

She's like a Tiki that's gone off on the deep end. 

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3 hours ago, Sir Wolfram of Vallora said:

Alright I'll throw in my hat in the ring. I dislike Edlgard simply because I agree more with Rhea. I sympathise with her cause more than I can agree with Edlgard's. For me, Edlgard is a sypathetic take on a Walhart character, but I feel what made Walhart so good is you couldn't sympathize with him. He demands your respect, not your sympathy.

  Hide contents

I also really like Flayn, so I'll side with her more anyway.

 

I do have some sympathy for Rhea, but I prefer Edelgard and I still believe that Rhea needs to be removed from power. It should be noted that Edelgard doesn't kill Rhea in most timelines, and that her death in Crimson Flower is her own doing. Edelgard would have spared her life if she surrendered and didn't burn down the capital.

Spoiler

I also like Flayn, which is why I spare her every time.

 

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On 5/12/2020 at 4:18 AM, FrostyFireMage said:

People who brand Edelgard as a liberal or any political leaning outside of a meritocracy confuse me, she's not aiming for a communist/socialist government or anything like that.

She’s also pretty authoritative. I know Fodlan’s politics can’t really be compared to modern politics (plus I find the world is not that fully-fleshed out, with a fair few contradictions), but yeah, meritocracies generally don’t jive with left-wing politics.

~

One thing I haven’t seen mentioned yet: I personally dislike Edelgard because I find her pattern of speech and turns of phrase narcissistic. I actually find her self-centered in that she believes she knows best and has the answer for everyone. Being willing to sacrifice others’ lives for your own goals (even if you’re also prepared to lay down your own life) is not something I admire. And as someone who’s had to deal with narcissistic abuse in their life I actually find Edelgard very, very hard to listen to. I’ve come across a few other people with similar backgrounds to me who dislike her for the same reason.

I also disagree with meritocracy on a fundamental level and don’t believe they work - and the ending of CF doesn’t help in this respect because all of Edelgard’s close friends end up being in positions of power (and yes, I agree it would have improved a lot to see Dorothea or another commoner placed in a position of power). And some people are weak - physically or mentally or weak in terms of influence - and that’s okay! They still deserve as much of a chance at life as anyone else. 

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1 hour ago, Res said:

She’s also pretty authoritative. I know Fodlan’s politics can’t really be compared to modern politics (plus I find the world is not that fully-fleshed out, with a fair few contradictions), but yeah, meritocracies generally don’t jive with left-wing politics.

~

One thing I haven’t seen mentioned yet: I personally dislike Edelgard because I find her pattern of speech and turns of phrase narcissistic. I actually find her self-centered in that she believes she knows best and has the answer for everyone. Being willing to sacrifice others’ lives for your own goals (even if you’re also prepared to lay down your own life) is not something I admire. And as someone who’s had to deal with narcissistic abuse in their life I actually find Edelgard very, very hard to listen to. I’ve come across a few other people with similar backgrounds to me who dislike her for the same reason.

I also disagree with meritocracy on a fundamental level and don’t believe they work - and the ending of CF doesn’t help in this respect because all of Edelgard’s close friends end up being in positions of power (and yes, I agree it would have improved a lot to see Dorothea or another commoner placed in a position of power). And some people are weak - physically or mentally or weak in terms of influence - and that’s okay! They still deserve as much of a chance at life as anyone else. 

A meritocracy system does not have to leave the weakest behind. In fact she never says that she will not protect the weak. She will protect the weak, but she also believes that the weak will become strong if they are provided with the necessary tools for their development as an individual.

Luckily she has ideas closer to liberalism. I would already be the first anti-Edelgard if she had ideas closer to socialism / communism.

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1 hour ago, Res said:

One thing I haven’t seen mentioned yet: I personally dislike Edelgard because I find her pattern of speech and turns of phrase narcissistic. I actually find her self-centered in that she believes she knows best and has the answer for everyone. Being willing to sacrifice others’ lives for your own goals (even if you’re also prepared to lay down your own life) is not something I admire. And as someone who’s had to deal with narcissistic abuse in their life I actually find Edelgard very, very hard to listen to. I’ve come across a few other people with similar backgrounds to me who dislike her for the same reason.

The thing is, though, is that Edelgard is a leader. A leader doesn't act because they absolutely know what is best, but they believe is best, even if others don't agree. Even if she didn't go with war, and focused on peace, people wouldn't agree with her. Is she a narcissist then? Or are they the narcissist, who refuse to accept change because they like their way better? 

Edelgard acted not out of thinking she's the only one that can "save" the others. She is just someone that refuses to sit back and watch from the sidelines any longer. 

Honestly, it's the fact that she will act without caring if others hate her for it is what's admirable. People are always stuck in worrying about if everyone will like what they do, and then just not act. That's not the work of a leader. A leader is someone that acts on what they believe is the best call, even if it might be bad for some other people. 

It isn't narcissism. That's why she prefers making Byleth stand above her and give orders. She's the emperor, and people would see her as such. Status is something Edelgard can't escape from, and people will always see her as the person in charge, and someone that isn't bound by status and would not pressure her with expectations. She hates that, but she has to do so nonetheless. It's why I like when she says that she would rather laze around, eating sweets. 

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2 hours ago, Res said:

She’s also pretty authoritative. I know Fodlan’s politics can’t really be compared to modern politics (plus I find the world is not that fully-fleshed out, with a fair few contradictions), but yeah, meritocracies generally don’t jive with left-wing politics.

~

One thing I haven’t seen mentioned yet: I personally dislike Edelgard because I find her pattern of speech and turns of phrase narcissistic. I actually find her self-centered in that she believes she knows best and has the answer for everyone. Being willing to sacrifice others’ lives for your own goals (even if you’re also prepared to lay down your own life) is not something I admire. And as someone who’s had to deal with narcissistic abuse in their life I actually find Edelgard very, very hard to listen to. I’ve come across a few other people with similar backgrounds to me who dislike her for the same reason.

I also disagree with meritocracy on a fundamental level and don’t believe they work - and the ending of CF doesn’t help in this respect because all of Edelgard’s close friends end up being in positions of power (and yes, I agree it would have improved a lot to see Dorothea or another commoner placed in a position of power). And some people are weak - physically or mentally or weak in terms of influence - and that’s okay! They still deserve as much of a chance at life as anyone else. 

You should still recognize that just because Edelgard reminds you of someone who wronged you in yhe past, it doesn't mean she is anything like that person. 

I have encountered a person who hates Edelgard because she reminds them of their ex gaslighted them in the past. But the truth is that Edelgard never gaslighted Byleth. Edelgard is not the person who wronged you. Is it really fair to judge her based on something she has never done?

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19 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

The opposite also the case. I can't sympathize with Rhea because she had time to learn to be happy with others and move past her trauma. She had people like Wilhelm, whom she exhibits affection towards even after a thousand years, and many people that were loyal to her. She could create living creatures like Sitri and others, but rather than have them be her family, she made them them only to serve as tools to revive her mother. 

She's like a Tiki that's gone off on the deep end. 

I can see your side and even agree to a good extent. I'm simply speaking for me personally. I do agree Rhea had the time to begin to heal from her wounds, and that not doing so is what lead to many terrible things happening. The differnece between her and Tiki really lies in the fact that The a watched and feels responsible for the genocide of her people. Another thing is, while I agree Edlgard's goals are honorable, her methods, being wresting power of a nation by (correct me if I'm wrong) killing the former ruler and leading a campaign on the reat of the nation doubtless costing thousands of lives if not more. Yes, the church was corrupt to an extent, but they did offer a semblance of peace. Interestingly, Edlgard's main motivation is quite similar to Rhea's at the core, which is she was abused and tortured when she was quite young, similar to the mental toture of watching your entire race nearly wiped out. The difference is, while harboring many I'll thoughts and allowing things to get out of hand, The a did bring mostly prace for centuries, whereas Edlgard led a crusade. 

16 hours ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

 

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I also like Flayn, which is why I spare her every time.

 

Spoiler

Although, imagine sparing Flayn but killing Seteth. That's probably the most evil move you could make in a play through.

 

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15 minutes ago, Sir Wolfram of Vallora said:

I can see your side and even agree to a good extent. I'm simply speaking for me personally. I do agree Rhea had the time to begin to heal from her wounds, and that not doing so is what lead to many terrible things happening. The differnece between her and Tiki really lies in the fact that The a watched and feels responsible for the genocide of her people. Another thing is, while I agree Edlgard's goals are honorable, her methods, being wresting power of a nation by (correct me if I'm wrong) killing the former ruler and leading a campaign on the reat of the nation doubtless costing thousands of lives if not more. Yes, the church was corrupt to an extent, but they did offer a semblance of peace. Interestingly, Edlgard's main motivation is quite similar to Rhea's at the core, which is she was abused and tortured when she was quite young, similar to the mental toture of watching your entire race nearly wiped out. The difference is, while harboring many I'll thoughts and allowing things to get out of hand, The a did bring mostly prace for centuries, whereas Edlgard led a crusade. 

No, she did not wrest power in the way you're imagining it. Her father was already on his deathbed, and despite how Ferdinand's father, Duke Aegir, was a major reason why Edelgard suffered at the hands of the Agarthans, Edelgard didn't kill him, but stripped him of his power and putting him under arrest. She shows that she won't let personal feelings dictate her actions. However, even attaining her position as emperor is only a result of having the help of corrupt nobles and the Agarthans, because they were the ones in control of the Empire as a result of the Insurrection of the Seven. 

Now, the Church's form of peace is something you have to wonder is actually something that can be considered as actual peace. Rhea did some really shady and messed up things, including, but not limited to, framing Ashe's stepbrother for the assassination of the former king, because Rhea wanted to cover up the truth that the Church has internal strife and the Western Church plotted to assassinate Rhea. 

And overall making the religion be worshipped and making people believe in Crests has caused society to obsess over Crests, and even begin to become xenophobic. Yeah, the Church kept a semblance of peace, but it's a false peace. It's living at the expense of both ignorance and misery of others. And thus kept going for over a thousand years. How many people died as a result of a rotten system? It had to go, but Rhea didn't believe in that. Rhea believed that her form of peace, making humans depend on the salvation of the goddess, was the best form of peace. Edelgard desired freedom from that.

Also, there's a much bigger difference between Rhea and Edelgard in regards to their trauma. 

Rhea was motivated by hatred and revenge, and unable to move on, desired to just bring back what was lost rather than move forward. 

Edelgard was motivated by responsibility, wanting the same mistakes to never happen again so that the people that died didn't die for nothing. 

Edelgard focused on the future, while Rhea was stuck in the past. 

I agree that they are similar, but their motivations are very different and the desires they hold are not the same. 

To quote Tiki and how she isn't like Rhea, despite how Tiki holds her own trauma and experiences, she says this to Say'ri in Awakening:

Quote

Say'ri: I fear my lifetime is but a few short days compared to yours. Would you still have me, knowing that I cannot stay for long?

Tiki: Without a moment's hesitation. I am used to loss. Do not deprive me from the joy of ever HAVING.

Rhea could not let go of loss and could not let herself fully embrace the joy of having bonds. 

Well, not until she spends five years imprisoned by Edelgard during non-CF routes.

Edited by omegaxis1

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20 hours ago, Sir Wolfram of Vallora said:

For me, Edlgard is a sypathetic take on a Walhart character, but I feel what made Walhart so good is you couldn't sympathize with him. He demands your respect, not your sympathy.

I would just like to note that “first” sympathetic take on the sort Walhart type character was in fact Alm. Funny thing is He and Edelgard actually do share very similar philosophies as in Gods are halting human progress and humanity is strong enough without them. I personally find Edelgard to be the better written of the two though at least when compared to his SoV incarnation

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Just now, Ottservia said:

I would just like to note that “first” sympathetic take on the sort Walhart type character was in fact Alm. Funny thing is He and Edelgard actually do share very similar philosophies as in Gods are halting human progress and humanity is strong enough without them. I personally find Edelgard to be the better written of the two though at least when compared to his SoV incarnation

Oh my god, it's so true. Clive even points out that what Alm will do WILL cause many people to suffer for a time, and Alm insists that he cannot accept a future with the gods any longer because of how much suffering they will inevitably cause. Edelgard sees the system as something that will cause more harm, so she starts a war. 

But ironically, no one criticizes Alm, but go all out in Celica bashing.

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51 minutes ago, Blackstarskywalker said:

Edelgard has been called a nazi, fascist, ethnocentric, military dictator, egocentric, and now narcissistic. Take off Emperor Palpatine, you've got competition. 😂😂😂

None of them actually true.

I think we all know that if Edelgard was the Sith Emperor, the Galaxy would have been a much better place. The primary difference between Edelgard and Palpatine is that Edelgard has good intentions and is quite agreeable. The rebellion would lose their will to fight as soon as they met her.  

Sure, she still might want to separate the Jedi from galactic politics as she doesn't like religion wielding political power. But I very much doubt that she will build a Death Star. I also think a lot of her policies would be rather popular with the people.

If Edelgard is the Emperor, I guess Byleth would be Darth Vader

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24 minutes ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

Sure, she still might want to separate the Jedi from galactic politics as she doesn't like religion wielding political power. But I very much doubt that she will build a Death Star. I also think a lot of her policies would be rather popular with the people.

The Jedi should never have been part of the Republic to begin with. It's why Palpatine played them like a fiddle, not only turning them into generals of an army, but also making them overall help him conquer planets and expand his reach, and doing it all under their very nose. 

Honestly, given how Edelgard has no issues with Nabateans personally, but wants to wipe out the Agarthans, Edelgard would allow Jedis to remain, but wipe out the Sith herself.

But that's Star Wars, but the point is, religion and politics together is BAD.

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14 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

The Jedi should never have been part of the Republic to begin with. It's why Palpatine played them like a fiddle, not only turning them into generals of an army, but also making them overall help him conquer planets and expand his reach, and doing it all under their very nose. 

Honestly, given how Edelgard has no issues with Nabateans personally, but wants to wipe out the Agarthans, Edelgard would allow Jedis to remain, but wipe out the Sith herself.

But that's Star Wars, but the point is, religion and politics together is BAD.

Well, I don't like religion mixing with politics either, which is a huge reason for why I support Edelgard and dislike Rhea. 

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8 hours ago, Blackstarskywalker said:

A meritocracy system does not have to leave the weakest behind. In fact she never says that she will not protect the weak. She will protect the weak, but she also believes that the weak will become strong if they are provided with the necessary tools for their development as an individual.

Luckily she has ideas closer to liberalism. I would already be the first anti-Edelgard if she had ideas closer to socialism / communism.

It’s ok for people to be weak. Some people are going to be physically or mentally weak no matter how much help they have. Weak people still have as much to contribute to society as strong people. Many of the best people I know are ‘weak’ by society’s standards.

I reject the idea that weak people need protecting, too. Weak people don’t need to pandered to. I would consider myself weak. I certainly couldn’t join an army. I’d hate to be considered inferior merely because I couldn’t fight.

There’s a world of difference between socialist and communist. I’m absolutely a socialist and having come to the US from a *slightly* more socialist country (nationalized healthcare, etc.) - I miss it. So yeah, Edelgard isn’t what I would consider terribly left.

Re. Narcissism, I was careful not to call her a narcissist. I don’t think she’s a narcissist, and all leaders do have to have narcissistic traits to a degree anyway in order to lead. But I do find some of her dialogue to be very similar to dialogue a narcissist would use, too similar to ignore.

6 hours ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

You should still recognize that just because Edelgard reminds you of someone who wronged you in yhe past, it doesn't mean she is anything like that person. 

I have encountered a person who hates Edelgard because she reminds them of their ex gaslighted them in the past. But the truth is that Edelgard never gaslighted Byleth. Edelgard is not the person who wronged you. Is it really fair to judge her based on something she has never done?

Ultimately she’s a fictional character, and I, the player, am not Byleth. And I wouldn’t claim that Edelgard gaslit Byleth. 

Someone doesn’t have to have wronged you for you to dislike them. Personalities clash; not everyone is going to get along. And that’s why I’m not going to be persuaded to like Edelgard. 
 

If someone really strongly reminds me of another person in multiple ways I’m going to assume that they’re somewhat like that person. Maybe if she actually existed and I could learn more about her I might grow to like her, but as she’s fictional all we have to go on is what we get in the game.

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18 minutes ago, Res said:

Re. Narcissism, I was careful not to call her a narcissist. I don’t think she’s a narcissist, and all leaders do have to have narcissistic traits to a degree anyway in order to lead. But I do find some of her dialogue to be very similar to dialogue a narcissist would use, too similar to ignore.

Well, I would not call her narcissistic, but she does admit that she is someone that is viewed as arrogant by others, with even Sothis remarking that about her. Being arrogant might actually make one see the person as narcissistic from a certain perspective.

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22 minutes ago, Res said:

It’s ok for people to be weak. Some people are going to be physically or mentally weak no matter how much help they have. Weak people still have as much to contribute to society as strong people. Many of the best people I know are ‘weak’ by society’s standards.

I reject the idea that weak people need protecting, too. Weak people don’t need to pandered to. I would consider myself weak. I certainly couldn’t join an army. I’d hate to be considered inferior merely because I couldn’t fight.

There’s a world of difference between socialist and communist. I’m absolutely a socialist and having come to the US from a *slightly* more socialist country (nationalized healthcare, etc.) - I miss it. So yeah, Edelgard isn’t what I would consider terribly left.

Re. Narcissism, I was careful not to call her a narcissist. I don’t think she’s a narcissist, and all leaders do have to have narcissistic traits to a degree anyway in order to lead. But I do find some of her dialogue to be very similar to dialogue a narcissist would use, too similar to ignore.

Ultimately she’s a fictional character, and I, the player, am not Byleth. And I wouldn’t claim that Edelgard gaslit Byleth. 

Someone doesn’t have to have wronged you for you to dislike them. Personalities clash; not everyone is going to get along. And that’s why I’m not going to be persuaded to like Edelgard. 
 

If someone really strongly reminds me of another person in multiple ways I’m going to assume that they’re somewhat like that person. Maybe if she actually existed and I could learn more about her I might grow to like her, but as she’s fictional all we have to go on is what we get in the game.

Do what you wish, just don't get into the mindset of believing that Edelgard has wronged you, personally, just because she reminds you of someone else, because she hasn't. 

By the way, I think pandering to the weak is more Dimitri than Edelgard, he is the one who keep referring to commoners as inferior to the people protecting them. Edelgard has more faith people than that and thinks that if everyone is given a chance they should be able to contribute to society. She isn't for lording over people like would be the case with the feudal system. She never said she will let the strong trample on the weak, Dimitri made that accusation and she denied it. Edelgard wouldn't consider you inferior and look down on you because of it, she would fight so your position in society would be secure. 

28 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Well, I would not call her narcissistic, but she does admit that she is someone that is viewed as arrogant by others, with even Sothis remarking that about her. Being arrogant might actually make one see the person as narcissistic from a certain perspective.

Some level of haughtiness is to be expected from nobillity. But Edelgard can also be surprisingly humble, she very seldom looks down on someone because they are a commoner or of lower rank. She is also willing to perform manual labour around the monastery, even as Emperor.

Despite her own claims, I don't think Edelgard is anymore arrogant than the likes of Ferdinand or Lorenz.

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5 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

But ironically, no one criticizes Alm, but go all out in Celica bashing.

I criticize Alm all the time; he's a bland Marth-style protagonist in a story where a bland Marth-style protagonist is ill-suited, and he's a massive Gary Stu. I've said this several times in several threads; Alm isn't much better than Corrin in terms of writing, and I'll stand by that. 

Celica, at least, had clear flaws and acted relatively in-character when she messed up. It's not her fault that a game that marketed her and Alm as being equals sidelined her and damselled her. 

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1 hour ago, Res said:

There’s a world of difference between socialist and communist. I’m absolutely a socialist and having come to the US from a *slightly* more socialist country (nationalized healthcare, etc.) - I miss it. So yeah, Edelgard isn’t what I would consider terribly left.

If you mean a social democracy, it is acceptable to me. If it is plain socialism, there is a world of difference. I live in a country where socialist policies are applied, and we are having a very bad time (Spoiler Alert: It's Venezuela)

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15 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

I criticize Alm all the time; he's a bland Marth-style protagonist in a story where a bland Marth-style protagonist is ill-suited, and he's a massive Gary Stu. I've said this several times in several threads; Alm isn't much better than Corrin in terms of writing, and I'll stand by that. 

Celica, at least, had clear flaws and acted relatively in-character when she messed up. It's not her fault that a game that marketed her and Alm as being equals sidelined her and damselled her. 

The fact that you say my favorite lord isn't much better than my most hated lord honestly hurts me and makes me mad

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11 minutes ago, eclipse said:

. . .what the fuck did this topic devolve into.

Edelgard and why some people hate her? Confusion over why some people hate Micaiah?

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6 minutes ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

Edelgard and why some people hate her? Confusion over why some people hate Micaiah?

We're reading the same topic, right?

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