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I really don’t like the term “Mary Sue”


Ottservia
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I really REALLY don’t like the term “mary sue” in any capacity cause like it’s been over used to the point where it’s become a meaningless buzzword that really has no weight or significant meaning behind it. Even when I somewhat agree with it, I hate it. It’s just a bad term that’s lost all of its meaning and I just loathe whenever I see it

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Apparently Mary Sue was the first ever character to fit the mary sue mold...so now that's the term.

It's certainly a more pleasing and compact term than Ebony Dementia Darkness Raven Way. 

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28 minutes ago, Dragoncat said:

Apparently Mary Sue was the first ever character to fit the mary sue mold...so now that's the term.

Actually, Mary Sue was created as a satire of already existing original character tropes in the Star Trek fan community. This dates back to when people shared fanfictions through magazines.

1 hour ago, Ottservia said:

I really REALLY don’t like the term “mary sue” in any capacity cause like it’s been over used to the point where it’s become a meaningless buzzword that really has no weight or significant meaning behind it.

Spoiler

Virgin taking a meme seriously Vs. Chad loving shit : virginvschad

Maybe I don't hang out in the same circles of criticism as you do, but I don't have this problem. Besides, the meaning of the term is quite clear and easily verified. If someone misuses it then the fault is with them, not the term, and they should be corrected.

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6 minutes ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

Actually, Mary Sue was created as a satire of already existing original character tropes in the Star Trek fan community. This dates back to when people shared fanfictions through magazines.

I heard she was in Gargoyles fanfic, but maybe my memory is wrong. I remember the first was Captain Mary Sue, which fits Star Trek.

Quote

Maybe I don't hang out in the same circles of criticism as you do, but I don't have this problem. Besides, the meaning of the term is quite clear and easily verified. If someone misuses it then the fault is with them, not the term, and they should be corrected.

It's not that clear to everyone, looks like. But yes, people who call a strong female character a Mary Sue just because said character is kicking butt and taking names instead of being a damsel in distress are wrong and should be corrected.

My definition is a character that's perfect in every way, never encounters consequences for their actions, always wins, and is a personal fantasy for the author. Is this the meaning you had in mind too?

Edited by Dragoncat
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Like so many other classifications, it's very easy to slap it as a label onto something in order to shut down discussion about it.  Because it's so very subjective.

I guess we could also call them "Corrins".

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21 minutes ago, Dragoncat said:

My definition is a character that's perfect in every way, never encounters consequences for their actions, always wins, and is a personal fantasy for the author. Is this the meaning you had in mind too?

More or less. I think it's also worth mentioning that loved by all the good guys and disliked only by bad people.

Edited by AnonymousSpeed
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I completely agree. Mary Sue/Gary Stu is thrown around in fandom so much that it no longer has any actual meaning behind it and has become synonymous with "character I don't like so they're automatically bad". Someone goes throwing those terms around and I immediately tune out.

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47 minutes ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

More or less. I think it's also worth mentioning that loved by all the good guys and disliked only by bad people.

And they always have a good reason for any action that could be construed as anything other than perfect ("I kicked that old lady because she had a spider on her leg!").  They will almost always have some sort of love interest, though depending on the target audience, there will be several, competing ones, almost all of them being likeable characters themselves.

That's when I start rooting for the villains.

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Just now, Glennstavos said:

Can I actually do this, or is that risking a ban?

I was being sarcastic, so please don't!  I'm sure there's a non-FE Corrin that isn't a walking mess of a character!

4 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

I would cite characters like Rey to be Mary Sues, given how much BS she pulls and how the story seems to cater to her rather than her playing a role to the story. 

The first bad assumption. . .is assuming that there's a coherent story to cater to her.

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Just now, eclipse said:

The first bad assumption. . .is assuming that there's a coherent story to cater to her.

The worst thing to realize is how, after only a YEAR of Jedi training at best, she defeated Palpatine, and is basically named the Chosen One and just... SO much bad writing just to make Rey look good. 

Especially when she just pulls new powers out of thin air and just knows how to use them at will after and perfectly. 

Force Healing, cool. Would have been GREAT for Anakin to have when he held his dying mother in his arms. 

Or just the fact that you can apparently warp objects just like that lightyears away.

Like, WHERE did these powers even come from?

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1 minute ago, omegaxis1 said:

The worst thing to realize is how, after only a YEAR of Jedi training at best, she defeated Palpatine, and is basically named the Chosen One and just... SO much bad writing just to make Rey look good. 

Especially when she just pulls new powers out of thin air and just knows how to use them at will after and perfectly. 

Force Healing, cool. Would have been GREAT for Anakin to have when he held his dying mother in his arms. 

Or just the fact that you can apparently warp objects just like that lightyears away.

Like, WHERE did these powers even come from?

1. Check the EU, it'll answer some of those questions.
2. Wrong topic for a SW rant.  My reply was a small hint towards that.

Edited by eclipse
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1 minute ago, eclipse said:

1. Check the EU, it'll answer some of those questions.
2. Wrong topic for a SW rant.  My reply was a small hint towards that.

But overall, there hasn't been anyone that is strictly a Mary Sue or Gary Stu. 

I guess people consider Corrin one. 

I was sort of close to consider Ephraim a Gary Stu. He definitely had quite a few moments of that in Sacred Stones. Like, takes a castle with a few men, gets surrounded, and then manages to off screen escape. 

"I don't pick fights I can't win." 

Picks a fight with the Empire. Like, that's a Gary Stu moment there. And many more, too. Dude pretty much solos the Empire himself in Eirika's route. 

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2 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

But overall, there hasn't been anyone that is strictly a Mary Sue or Gary Stu. 

I guess people consider Corrin one. 

I was sort of close to consider Ephraim a Gary Stu. He definitely had quite a few moments of that in Sacred Stones. Like, takes a castle with a few men, gets surrounded, and then manages to off screen escape. 

"I don't pick fights I can't win." 

Picks a fight with the Empire. Like, that's a Gary Stu moment there. And many more, too. Dude pretty much solos the Empire himself in Eirika's route. 

I'll quote myself:

1 hour ago, eclipse said:

Like so many other classifications, it's very easy to slap it as a label onto something in order to shut down discussion about it.  Because it's so very subjective.

It's because they're subjective that it's not particularly easy to classify.

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I honestly can't say the term ever bothered me, but from what other people on this thread have been saying, I seem to have less experience with people misusing the term than others. Perhaps I'm just not involved with many communities that do.

I think Mary Sue/Gary Stu works as a classification, the issue (or at least my issue) arises when its misused or when discussion is just reduced to "character is mary sue so they bad". Because I don't think that's engaging or informative for anybody involved. So basically, imo, the term is fine, the people who use it are not always fine. Same as any other trope/archetype/cliché, really.

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Isn't Cordelia kind of a Mary Sue as well? She's a character who is naturally excellent at everything without working hard for it (unlike Severa or Caeldori), too humble to recognize her abilities, generally beloved by most people (in the game), and a perfectionist to a fault (not to mention fairly attractive). Her only real "flaws" are that she idealized Chrom (who she barely ever spoke to) into the object of her affections, but was too shy and afraid to voice her feelings, and that she has a strong inferiority complex. I'm not saying for sure whether she is or isn't, but in my mind she fits enough of the characteristics of a Mary Sue to be considered one.

Edited by twilitfalchion
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I don't see how Micaiah is a Mary Sue

13 hours ago, Falcom Knight said:

The very first time I ever heared about this term was this:

And seriously the explanation of the LPer didn't really help me further to understand what Mary Sue even means.

 

A lot of the her actions throughout RD did have consequences(maybe if they made Micaiah the full main lord and let Ike take the back burner this wouldn't have happened)

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7 hours ago, twilitfalchion said:

Isn't Cordelia kind of a Mary Sue as well? She's a character who is naturally excellent at everything without working hard for it (unlike Severa or Caeldori), too humble to recognize her abilities, generally beloved by most people (in the game), and a perfectionist to a fault (not to mention fairly attractive). Her only real "flaws" are that she idealized Chrom (who she barely ever spoke to) into the object of her affections, but was too shy and afraid to voice her feelings, and that she has a strong inferiority complex. I'm not saying for sure whether she is or isn't, but in my mind she fits enough of the characteristics of a Mary Sue to be considered one.

No she's weak to bows.

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 4/22/2020 at 12:55 PM, twilitfalchion said:

Isn't Cordelia kind of a Mary Sue as well? She's a character who is naturally excellent at everything without working hard for it (unlike Severa or Caeldori), too humble to recognize her abilities, generally beloved by most people (in the game), and a perfectionist to a fault (not to mention fairly attractive). Her only real "flaws" are that she idealized Chrom (who she barely ever spoke to) into the object of her affections, but was too shy and afraid to voice her feelings, and that she has a strong inferiority complex. I'm not saying for sure whether she is or isn't, but in my mind she fits enough of the characteristics of a Mary Sue to be considered one.

And this illustrates my problem with the bulk of discussion round Mary Sues; so many people think it simply means something like "overly perfect character" and ask, "What about [insert OP character here]", or think it means, "plot centers around the character" and ask, "Isn't that just a protagonist (the answer to that, incidentally, would be no; the plot doesn't have to center around the protagonist; the protagonist just has to be the primary character in it)?"

To be clear, I'm not blaming you or saying there's any ill-intent; I'm just pointing out the lack of understanding of what a Mary Sue actually is. 

A Mary Sue goes beyond either of those things: a Mary Sue generally occurs when glorification and gratification of a character takes precedence over writing the character. The story's plot gets wrapped and distorted around them; as far as everyone's concerned, they are the center of everything that matters, even when they probably shouldn't be. Common symptoms include, but are not limited to, the following: 

  • The character being unnaturally talented within the confines of their world. A character who's supposed to be a novice will easily overpower the masters at everything because that's who they are. 
  • The character is placed on a pedestal: everyone either wants them or wants to be them, and those that don't are evil or have something wrong about them, and they would love the character if it weren't for that thing that's wrong about them. 
  • Either a complete lack of flaws, or flaws are presented but not treated as flaws by the actual events of the story. There's no struggle to overcome anything on a character level.

Note that none of these, on their own, are indicative of a Mary Sue. But if you see more than one, you might have a Mary Sue. 

 

Do I think that people should stop using the term, "Mary Sue"? No. I do think, however, that they should follow it up with, "And here's what I mean by that". 

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1 minute ago, vanguard333 said:

And this illustrates my problem with the bulk of discussion round Mary Sues; so many people think it simply means something like "overly perfect character" and ask, "What about [insert OP character here]", or think it means, "plot centers around the character" and ask, "Isn't that just a protagonist (the answer to that, incidentally, would be no; the plot doesn't have to center around the protagonist; the protagonist just has to be the primary character in it)?"

To be clear, I'm not blaming you or saying there's any ill-intent; I'm just pointing out the lack of understanding of what a Mary Sue actually is. 

A Mary Sue goes beyond either of those things: a Mary Sue generally occurs when glorification and gratification of a character takes precedence over writing the character. The story's plot gets wrapped and distorted around them; as far as everyone's concerned, they are the center of everything that matters, even when they probably shouldn't be. Common symptoms include, but are not limited to, the following: 

  • The character being unnaturally talented within the confines of their world. A character who's supposed to be a novice will easily overpower the masters at everything because that's who they are. 
  • The character is placed on a pedestal: everyone either wants them or wants to be them, and those that don't are evil or have something wrong about them, and they would love the character if it weren't for that thing that's wrong about them. 
  • Either a complete lack of flaws, or flaws are presented but not treated as flaws by the actual events of the story. There's no struggle to overcome anything on a character level.

Note that none of these, on their own, are indicative of a Mary Sue. But if you see more than one, you might have a Mary Sue. 

 

Do I think that people should stop using the term, "Mary Sue"? No. I do think, however, that they should follow it up with, "And here's what I mean by that". 

Thanks for the clarification. My understanding of what a "Mary Sue" is was much more limited than what you explained. Apparently, it's more complicated than I had thought.

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3 minutes ago, twilitfalchion said:

Thanks for the clarification. My understanding of what a "Mary Sue" is was much more limited than what you explained. Apparently, it's more complicated than I had thought.

Yeah; it is a bit complicated, mainly because it is a fairly difficult trope to describe (especially for me, since I'm not good at describing stuff in general). But once you see some examples and start being able to narrow it down, it becomes a fair bit easier to identify. 

For instance, I would argue (in a topic about the characters, since I don't want to cause this thread to become locked) that Corrin and Alm are examples of a Gary Stu (the male equivalent) by the definition and criteria I described, but as I said, that's a discussion for another thread. 

 

On 4/22/2020 at 1:42 PM, PeonyofLeosa Dreamworld said:

I don't see how Micaiah is a Mary Sue

A lot of the her actions throughout RD did have consequences(maybe if they made Micaiah the full main lord and let Ike take the back burner this wouldn't have happened)

Micaiah definitely is not a Mary Sue. To be honest, I find the idea of a character that was badly overshadowed in her own game being accused of being a Mary Sue extremely ironic to the point of it being almost funny. 

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  • 3 weeks later...

It's often a fine line, but I think the big thing is when the feats come at the expense of the character. Like I wouldn't call Ike a Mary Sue because he had a decent character behind him (moreso in POR). Byleth follows basically the same arc as Ike, but really doesn't have any character being a silent protagonist. It's also when it starts to get to the point where it is annoying and over the top, which is different for everyone. I think Rey is the gold standard (especially in 8 and 9) as she had incredibly vague goals, no real relationships with any of the characters (knew Finn for like a day), and just kept inventing new powers with no training whatsoever. 

I think Micaiah is sort of a gray area, because her whole character is basically about how perfect she is. She does suck in-game though, so it kind of evens out. She would have been better suited as an antagonist for Sanaki/Ike from the beginning. She also makes poor/evil decisions, so she isn't a true Mary Sue.

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On 4/22/2020 at 2:29 PM, omegaxis1 said:

 

Picks a fight with the Empire. Like, that's a Gary Stu moment there. And many more, too. Dude pretty much solos the Empire himself in Eirika's route. 

I'd say his pig-headedness, and initial refusal to be king because he doesn't want the responsibility both run counter to him being full blown. He still definitely is a selfish, brash, reckless, arrogant bastard. Though I could be reading too much into his attitude. Either way, he does develop over the game to accept the responsibility of the throne... a progression a Mary Sue/Gary Stu shouldn't make... because progressing the character would be admitting to a flaw... and that defeats the whole purpose of being a Mary Sue/Gary Stu

 

On 4/23/2020 at 2:55 AM, twilitfalchion said:

Isn't Cordelia kind of a Mary Sue as well? She's a character who is naturally excellent at everything without working hard for it (unlike Severa or Caeldori), too humble to recognize her abilities, generally beloved by most people (in the game), and a perfectionist to a fault (not to mention fairly attractive). Her only real "flaws" are that she idealized Chrom (who she barely ever spoke to) into the object of her affections, but was too shy and afraid to voice her feelings, and that she has a strong inferiority complex. I'm not saying for sure whether she is or isn't, but in my mind she fits enough of the characteristics of a Mary Sue to be considered one.

If she were plot relevant I'd agree... but I think she kind of exists more as a foil for Severa to work off of, if you get me. Again, I could be over-thinking the writing, but if she wasn't how she is, it'd leave a lot of Severa's reason for her character absent. Also, not being a protagonist or even important to the over-all plot (she can be felled in the chapter she's recruited and have no effect on the main story) means the story isn't bending over backwards to make her the centre of everything, justify her actions, or have her be the key to resolving the entire conflict.

If I were to give an example of someone in FE as a Mary Sue, it'd be Kris. Shoved haphazardly into an existing story. Comes up with a plan that used to be Marth's in the original game (the one that turns the war around and takes the fight to Hardin), is literally praised by everyone. Also about the most potent unit in the game. To be honest, Kris is quite possibly the biggest Mary Sue in the whole series.

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