Jump to content

Blue Lions, Maddening, NG--How do my plans look?


Marlowe
 Share

Class Decisions  

35 members have voted

  1. 1. What should I do with Flayn and Marianne?

    • Dancer Flayn, Holy Knight Marianne
      11
    • Dark Flier Flayn, Dancer Marianne
      24
  2. 2. What should Felix do?

    • Sword/Bow hybrid
      20
    • Pure Bow
      15
  3. 3. How many people can I realistically build up?

    • 6 or fewer
      1
    • 7-10
      18
    • 10-13
      12
    • EVERY LAST ONE OF THEM
      4


Recommended Posts

9 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Also just FYI, you can break up messages you're quoting by highlighting the original, and clicking "Quote selection".

Thanks for the tip!

8 hours ago, haarhaarhaar said:

Yep she's a massive pain with that magic ballista, though her replacement is still gonna be using it. 

Ah, but I feel less guilty about killing a generic.

5 hours ago, haarhaarhaar said:

If you wanted to optimise Annette for using Crusher as I've described here, then you'd make a pretty serviceable unit, that doesn't suffer much, if at all, more than any axe wielder in terms of hit. Magic axes is also a unique niche (BL doesn't get Arrow of Indra) that'll hit really hard. I'm sure people on this forum have actually tried this build as well, and can give better advice on how to make it work than I can.

This does seem like a fascinating idea. I wonder if it'd require fewer skills than a pure magic build, thus freeing up more rally skills? But I guess there's no harm in having Axe Prowess on a magic build and letting her have Dust as a hard-hitting defense-reducing attack, suitable for monsters.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 57
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

6 hours ago, haarhaarhaar said:

Is Crusher worth it on Annette? It probably has a niche use, if your focus is viability and Annette is a mage (as @Shanty Pete's 1st Mate says, Axe Prowess can fit on Annette's skills). In general, your primary axe users probably don't have good mag growths anyway, so it's not like anyone is clamouring to grab it (although interestingly, Hapi has a hidden Axe talent and Exhaustive Strike, and while I doubt any serious run would make use of it I'd love to see if Hapi could do anything with that). If you wanted to optimise Annette for using Crusher as I've described here, then you'd make a pretty serviceable unit, that doesn't suffer much, if at all, more than any axe wielder in terms of hit. Magic axes is also a unique niche (BL doesn't get Arrow of Indra) that'll hit really hard. I'm sure people on this forum have actually tried this build as well, and can give better advice on how to make it work than I can.

Thanks for asking! What I'll say is, I found Crusher to be a useful tool on a particular build of Annette. But it wasn't a "make-or-break" weapon, and wasn't even the most important aspect of the Wyvern Annette build. Obviously, the Wyvern Rider and Lord classes are blessed with flying mobility (including Canto), Axefaire, and strong stat modifiers. But it would be something of a "meme-build" for Annette, if not for two powerful tools - the Lightning Axe combat art, and Bolt Axe (+).

Lightning Axe, which Annette gains at C+ Axe rank, lets her turn any attack into a magical one (and use the magical hit formula). I found this to combine very well with armor-effective weaponry (Mace, Hammer, and post-skip, the Axe of Ukonvasara) to easily one-shot Armored enemies. Against non-Armored low-resistance foes, I liked to combine it with high-Might weapons, like the Steel and Devil Axes. Bolt Axe gives Annette a crucial ranged option, as well as letting her do magical damage on enemy-phase (although this build is somewhat frail, and prefers player-phase hit-and-run tactics). Notably, Bolt Axe+ gives Wyvern Lord Annette an attacking range of 11 from her starting position - as magical damage goes, this degree of attack range is matched by few (say, a Dark Flier with Thyrsus, or a Dark Flier with Thoron and Range+1). Crusher is something of a "cherry on top", doing more damage than anything else against non-armored low-res enemies (particularly via the Dust combat art). But, given its low Hero's Relic durability (yes I know it's repairable), I found myself using it somewhat sparingly relative to her other options.

The apparent objections to axe-oriented Annette (and @Shadow Mir is not wrong to point them our) are their shaky Hit rates and high weight. Hit, however, is patched up somewhat by the Axe Prowess boosts (+7/10/13/16/20 Hit, by rank) - this is comparable to the boosts from Reason prowess, and better than those afforded by other Prowess types. Moreover, the magical formula helps more than it hurts, as it bypasses the avoid boost from terrain. And Lancebreaker can also help secure the hit against enemy Paladins. Other options to secure accuracy include hit-boosting Batallions, like Cichol Wyvern Co (+15), and/or the Accuracy or Goddess rings. As for weight, I found AS not to matter when using the Lightning Axe combat art. In terms of Crusher and the Bolt Axe, she doubled Armors and certain Monsters, but little else. One way I could've addressed this is by getting her Darting Blow (she's already training in Flight, and she's neutral in Lances, making Pegasus achievable). That way she could've more comfortably doubled mid-speed enemies on Player Phase.

Anyway, that's my take. Crusher is good on Wyvern Annette, but there's more that's working in the build's favor than a single weapon. I didn't even get into the advantages of having Rally Speed/Strength, and Draw Back, on a flier. Anyway, a lot of the Axe details could also potentially work for Annette in a class like Warrior, Fortress Knight, or Great Knight. They're all weird builds for Annette (almost certainly worse than Wyvern, IMO), but if you're gonna send her down an Axe-route, may as well give her Crusher for the road. Or, as pointed out, it could work on another magic-oriented unit in an Axe class, like Wyvern Hapi.

Hope this helps, good luck!

Spoiler

This does seem like a fascinating idea. I wonder if it'd require fewer skills than a pure magic build, thus freeing up more rally skills? But I guess there's no harm in having Axe Prowess on a magic build and letting her have Dust as a hard-hitting defense-reducing attack, suitable for monsters.

@Marlowe As Skills go, an Axe-wielding Annette would want something like:

Spoiler

Axe Prowess Lv. X

Fiendish Blow

(Axefaire)

Rally Speed

Lancebreaker*

(Rally Movement)

Magic +2

Darting Blow**

(Axe Crit +10)

Rally Resistance

Roughly ordered in importance, with those deemed impractical (due to coming at S-rank or above in a proficiency) in parentheses. Two of special note: *Lancebreaker should be unequipped on any map with few or no lance-wielding enemies, and **Darting Blow comes from Pegasus Knight mastery, which is an optional step. She has about the same number of skills as a spell-oriented Annette, with a couple substitutions (Axe prowess rather than Reason prowess, Lancebreaker instead of Bowbreaker, etc.). IMO her most important rallies are Strength (innate) and Speed, so that'll only take up one slot. If you want her adding Resistance and Movement, it'll be at some cost to her combat abilities. 

Edited by Shanty Pete's 1st Mate
Response to Marlowe
Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Anyway, that's my take. Crusher is good on Wyvern Annette, but there's more that's working in the build's favor than a single weapon. I didn't even get into the advantages of having Rally Speed/Strength, and Draw Back, on a flier. Anyway, a lot of the Axe details could also potentially work for Annette in a class like Warrior, Fortress Knight, or Great Knight. They're all weird builds for Annette (almost certainly worse than Wyvern, IMO), but if you're gonna send her down an Axe-route, may as well give her Crusher for the road. Or, as pointed out, it could work on another magic-oriented unit in an Axe class, like Wyvern Hapi.

Amazing, that's super helpful, thank you for taking the time! Will definitely be referencing this when I go on to make my axe-build Annette.

11 hours ago, Marlowe said:

Ah, but I feel less guilty about killing a generic

I feel your pain. Killing Sylvain on CF was heartbreaking and he's not even close to being my favourite character.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 4/29/2020 at 11:55 PM, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Thanks for asking! What I'll say is, I found Crusher to be a useful tool on a particular build of Annette. But it wasn't a "make-or-break" weapon, and wasn't even the most important aspect of the Wyvern Annette build. Obviously, the Wyvern Rider and Lord classes are blessed with flying mobility (including Canto), Axefaire, and strong stat modifiers. But it would be something of a "meme-build" for Annette, if not for two powerful tools - the Lightning Axe combat art, and Bolt Axe (+).

Lightning Axe, which Annette gains at C+ Axe rank, lets her turn any attack into a magical one (and use the magical hit formula). I found this to combine very well with armor-effective weaponry (Mace, Hammer, and post-skip, the Axe of Ukonvasara) to easily one-shot Armored enemies. Against non-Armored low-resistance foes, I liked to combine it with high-Might weapons, like the Steel and Devil Axes. Bolt Axe gives Annette a crucial ranged option, as well as letting her do magical damage on enemy-phase (although this build is somewhat frail, and prefers player-phase hit-and-run tactics). Notably, Bolt Axe+ gives Wyvern Lord Annette an attacking range of 11 from her starting position - as magical damage goes, this degree of attack range is matched by few (say, a Dark Flier with Thyrsus, or a Dark Flier with Thoron and Range+1). Crusher is something of a "cherry on top", doing more damage than anything else against non-armored low-res enemies (particularly via the Dust combat art). But, given its low Hero's Relic durability (yes I know it's repairable), I found myself using it somewhat sparingly relative to her other options.

The apparent objections to axe-oriented Annette (and @Shadow Mir is not wrong to point them our) are their shaky Hit rates and high weight. Hit, however, is patched up somewhat by the Axe Prowess boosts (+7/10/13/16/20 Hit, by rank) - this is comparable to the boosts from Reason prowess, and better than those afforded by other Prowess types. Moreover, the magical formula helps more than it hurts, as it bypasses the avoid boost from terrain. And Lancebreaker can also help secure the hit against enemy Paladins. Other options to secure accuracy include hit-boosting Batallions, like Cichol Wyvern Co (+15), and/or the Accuracy or Goddess rings. As for weight, I found AS not to matter when using the Lightning Axe combat art. In terms of Crusher and the Bolt Axe, she doubled Armors and certain Monsters, but little else. One way I could've addressed this is by getting her Darting Blow (she's already training in Flight, and she's neutral in Lances, making Pegasus achievable). That way she could've more comfortably doubled mid-speed enemies on Player Phase.

Anyway, that's my take. Crusher is good on Wyvern Annette, but there's more that's working in the build's favor than a single weapon. I didn't even get into the advantages of having Rally Speed/Strength, and Draw Back, on a flier. Anyway, a lot of the Axe details could also potentially work for Annette in a class like Warrior, Fortress Knight, or Great Knight. They're all weird builds for Annette (almost certainly worse than Wyvern, IMO), but if you're gonna send her down an Axe-route, may as well give her Crusher for the road. Or, as pointed out, it could work on another magic-oriented unit in an Axe class, like Wyvern Hapi.

Hope this helps, good luck!

  Reveal hidden contents

This does seem like a fascinating idea. I wonder if it'd require fewer skills than a pure magic build, thus freeing up more rally skills? But I guess there's no harm in having Axe Prowess on a magic build and letting her have Dust as a hard-hitting defense-reducing attack, suitable for monsters.

@Marlowe As Skills go, an Axe-wielding Annette would want something like:

  Reveal hidden contents

Axe Prowess Lv. X

Fiendish Blow

(Axefaire)

Rally Speed

Lancebreaker*

(Rally Movement)

Magic +2

Darting Blow**

(Axe Crit +10)

Rally Resistance

Roughly ordered in importance, with those deemed impractical (due to coming at S-rank or above in a proficiency) in parentheses. Two of special note: *Lancebreaker should be unequipped on any map with few or no lance-wielding enemies, and **Darting Blow comes from Pegasus Knight mastery, which is an optional step. She has about the same number of skills as a spell-oriented Annette, with a couple substitutions (Axe prowess rather than Reason prowess, Lancebreaker instead of Bowbreaker, etc.). IMO her most important rallies are Strength (innate) and Speed, so that'll only take up one slot. If you want her adding Resistance and Movement, it'll be at some cost to her combat abilities. 

This is pretty cool, thanks! Do you have any thoughts on splitting the difference? I counted and figured I can run Axe Prowess, Reason Prowess, Fiendish Blow, Rally Spd, and one of the breakers depending on the map.

Also, any thoughts about working the magic weapon build? I've half-tried a few times but eventually it's boiled down to either using regular spells or using the designated magic weapon of that type, as it seems like 2 attacks with a Bolt Axe beat a single Lightning Axe most of the time. Though perhaps, on Maddening, attack speed bumps mean she'll only be getting one attack anyways, so use Lighting Axe to make it count? Just thinking out loud here.

On 4/30/2020 at 11:20 AM, haarhaarhaar said:

I feel your pain. Killing Sylvain on CF was heartbreaking and he's not even close to being my favourite character.

I think killing everyone on Crimson Flower—my first run, at that!—has traumatized me, so now I try to find strats to avoid killing students I don't have to. For example, my last VW run I recruited Ferdinand because he's required on the bridge, Linhardt because he gets killed by the Almyrans unless you do some janky speed strat, and Petra because she's right in front of you in the palace. It helps that Ferdie and Linhardt both share paralogues with Deer students.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

make sure to beef up the original blue lions squad as u don't get access to other characters post timeskip at the reunion where u have to route the bandits. God my mercedes and annette both got spawned in the bottom and had to go rescue them lol since they are so frail. u also get gilbert but I think if he dies he will retreat? not 100 percent sure on that. but yeah if u wanna bench someone from blue lions do it after timeskip. also I don't believe there is a turn limit so make sure u open all the chests before killing the boss. ashe is helpful for this.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 weeks later...
On 5/1/2020 at 5:24 PM, Marlowe said:

Also, any thoughts about working the magic weapon build? I've half-tried a few times but eventually it's boiled down to either using regular spells or using the designated magic weapon of that type, as it seems like 2 attacks with a Bolt Axe beat a single Lightning Axe most of the time. Though perhaps, on Maddening, attack speed bumps mean she'll only be getting one attack anyways, so use Lighting Axe to make it count? Just thinking out loud here.

That part, I just added, I generally found to be true. Annette's speed is just so-so, and Axes are a heavy weapon type. I found her only reliably doubling with a Bolt Axe or Crusher against Armored enemies. She can double more with the Training Axe, but then she's doing physical damage (which she's worse at, albeit not by a huge margin). Her Attack Speed can be improved somewhat by mastering Pegasus Knight for Darting Blow, or by Weight-3, so maybe she'll be doubling horseback enemies. But this takes time, and investment in Lance/Armor rank. The general idea of the build is, do as much damage as possible in a single hit on player phase. To this end, Fiendish Blow, Magic+2, and even the Magic Staff, are very much her friends.

On 5/1/2020 at 5:24 PM, Marlowe said:

This is pretty cool, thanks! Do you have any thoughts on splitting the difference? I counted and figured I can run Axe Prowess, Reason Prowess, Fiendish Blow, Rally Spd, and one of the breakers depending on the map.

My biggest eye-opening experience in Maddening was when I stopped trying to have a unit bring multiple weapon types to one map, and just having them bring one. Needing only one Prowess slot at a time was a game-changer, as it meant more room for other skills (Breaker, Blows, Stat+2, etc.). I wouldn't run Reason Prowess and Axe Prowess together - use Reason Prowess if she's in a magical class, and Axe Prowess if she's in a physical (Axe) class. You can use Axes on her in a magical class, but I wouldn't suggest it (poor movement, no Axefaire). Fiendish Blow, Lance/Bowbreaker, and Rally Speed are all good choices. I would prioritize Magic+2 over a second Prowess, personally. Or, if she's assigned an offensive gambit, Authority Lv. X.

Anyway, sorry for how long this took me to reply. I hope you're able to enjoy Annette, however you choose to run her.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 5/20/2020 at 10:10 PM, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

My biggest eye-opening experience in Maddening was when I stopped trying to have a unit bring multiple weapon types to one map, and just having them bring one. Needing only one Prowess slot at a time was a game-changer, as it meant more room for other skills (Breaker, Blows, Stat+2, etc.). I wouldn't run Reason Prowess and Axe Prowess together - use Reason Prowess if she's in a magical class, and Axe Prowess if she's in a physical (Axe) class. You can use Axes on her in a magical class, but I wouldn't suggest it (poor movement, no Axefaire). Fiendish Blow, Lance/Bowbreaker, and Rally Speed are all good choices. I would prioritize Magic+2 over a second Prowess, personally. Or, if she's assigned an offensive gambit, Authority Lv. X.

Anyway, sorry for how long this took me to reply. I hope you're able to enjoy Annette, however you choose to run her.

Hey, no worries. I guess it's as good a time as any to update. I'm almost done with Chapter 11. Probably the hardest parts of this run were the first mock battle, the Balthus-Hapi paralogue, and Anna's paralogue. I couldn't get Marianne in time to make her my dancer, so I made Flayn my dancer and I'm going to figure out something with Marianne. Maybe just a bishop with magic swords? The only recruit I haven't gotten yet is Petra, and I'm just hoping she joins during Chapter 12 with a minimum of save-scumming that first week.

I have been "splitting the difference" in unknowing defiance of your recommendations, but I don't feel like Annette has enough skills that I can specialize on one or the other yet. I'm planning on certifying her as a Warrior at least for the strength buff, so that'll be an option at that point. But Lightning Axe has been useful a few times for dealing a lot of damage when the spells just weren't cutting it. I might actually give her that Steel Axe+ I won from a tournament and haven't been using otherwise. We'll see how things work out.

I'm not looking forward to Chapter 13...

EDIT: I got to Chapter 13. I'd say kill me, but the game's already doing that just fine.

Edited by Marlowe
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Update, for those who care:

On Chapter 16; I've decided on a pure magic build for Annette after getting Bowbreaker, though I might continue swapping things in and out depending on the needs of the map—had her use Dust to debuff a monster for easier killing, for example.

I gave up on making Sylvain a Great Knight, realizing I can make like all the enemy paladins and equip Weight -3 to help his speed a little, or swap in an authority level if he's using an offensive gambit, so he has some options.

Ingrid is starting to lag a little offensively, but I'm hoping that'll pass once she gets A authority and I can give her the Cichol Wyvern Company.

Ashe is finally coming into his own as a Wyvern Rider; pretty close to being able to certify as Wyvern Lord. Petra's mostly his adjutant for supports, but she's decent.

Caspar I'm a little worried about. I could've recruited him earlier, but recruited him in Chapter 12 thinking I'd get the best stats. He's at least got a decent chance of certifying to War Master in the next month or so, which I want him to have before doing his paralogue. But I'm still worried about how viable he'll be for taking down DK.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Glad to hear things are going well!

I have the same problem with any Ingrid build - she's often lacking in killing power, and I've yet to find a build that fixes that.

Paladin Sylvain is definitely great in its own right, and giving him shields and a decent battalion brings his Prt pretty close to a GK anyway.

WM is a good idea for Caspar - if things get really dicey in his paralogue then you can stick Killer Knuckles/Killer Axe on him and Divine Pulse-scum for a critical (and use gambits to chip if that won't do the job)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, haarhaarhaar said:

I have the same problem with any Ingrid build - she's often lacking in killing power, and I've yet to find a build that fixes that.

Yeah. Perhaps a Brave Lance, to see if she can get quads? It might be too heavy for her to double regularly, though. I'm not immensely worried, because she's usually going after mages and other soft targets.

11 hours ago, haarhaarhaar said:

Paladin Sylvain is definitely great in its own right, and giving him shields and a decent battalion brings his Prt pretty close to a GK anyway.

True, though I've been having trouble with his accuracy, which is why I liked the double-breakers build. Still probably going to give him the Lampos Shield when that comes by since it's free Prt.

11 hours ago, haarhaarhaar said:

WM is a good idea for Caspar - if things get really dicey in his paralogue then you can stick Killer Knuckles/Killer Axe on him and Divine Pulse-scum for a critical (and use gambits to chip if that won't do the job)

That was the plan, this having been what I did last time (Killer Knuckles and Bombard, if I remember right). I just hope DK doesn't move in Maddening...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Marlowe said:

Yeah. Perhaps a Brave Lance, to see if she can get quads? It might be too heavy for her to double regularly, though. I'm not immensely worried, because she's usually going after mages and other soft targets.

Yeah my personal difficulty with that is Brave Lance Ingrid starts getting quadded by Grapplers and doubled by other borderline units on her EP. I guess that's more a question of unit placement/ my lack of confidence in her enemy phase though. It's annoying because Frozen Lance doesn't often OHKO on her, and she'd normally rather double units anyway - I'm having a similar issue with her Hexblade at the moment. 

4 hours ago, Marlowe said:

That was the plan, this having been what I did last time (Killer Knuckles and Bombard, if I remember right). I just hope DK doesn't move in Maddening...

Yeah I haven't played that quest in a while but my feeling is that he doesn't. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 4/29/2020 at 8:12 AM, haarhaarhaar said:

I'd rather my fliers spend as many levels as possible in a Master flying class, for the growths primarily but also to get Defiant Avoid/crit (the time skip means you have fewer levels to master advanced classes before you get access to Master classes).

I don't think Defiant skills are worth it, honestly, so I don't see why you brought them up. Incidentally, my main gripe with the Master classes is that very few of them have worthwhile mastery abilities. I mean, for a game with 4 class tiers, I'd have expected them to do better with regards to that...

Edited by Shadow Mir
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I actually really agree with both your complaints, but I also know I'm biased because I can't stand using low-HP builds. I do, however, recognise that they can be very effective, and if you do want to use defiant skills to bolster those builds (say, on a Vengeance Falcon Knight Bernadetta, or a Vantage + Wrath build) then Defiant Avo/crit are the ones to get. Still like you say it's just an ancillary point - the big reason to get to master class fliers early is because they are great classes with great growths and 8 uninhibited movement.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'll give my two cents on the polls here. I went with DF Flayn and Dancer Marianne because Flayn can already become a pegasus knight to get darting blow and then unlock her budding talent in reason magic so she can level up her black magic better. I still would train her white magic on the wide because rescue and fortify are potent spells to have even if without the 2x of white magic you would get from bishop and gremory. Plus Dark Flier really wants Bowbreaker since you'll always be using magic. She can also use the Caduceus Staff for longer range so you can run Reason Level 5, Fiendish Blow, Darting Blow, Bowbreaker, Alert Stance +. Of course you would need a flying battalion in order for her to gain any additional stat buffs or other utility but this is totally doable for her.

 

Marianne as a dancer I've used on my GD playthrough and she was excellent. Sword Avoid and her hero's relic gives her good damage potential against monsters as well as dodge support too. Her boon in riding really helps with movement +1 and you can still give her something like a forged levin sword for example. Though if you're going to go all the way with her as a dancer and have her heal, dance when needed, you can probably go for something like sword prowess level 5, sword avoid +20, special dance, movement +1, and maybe even magic +2 because at least physic will have some more healing power. For accessories there is healing staff if you her healing to be a bit better or march ring if want her to have 8 move (can be a bit much but hey at least she can get in range a lot better). 

 

Felix can do about any physical class you want him to because his growths support the idea. Assassin is easier for him to obtain though because sword and bow are both of this boons and CA's like Sunder which can be nice for higher crit and Finesse Blade while strong he needs to have a higher dex stat in order for the damage output to be better and since Assassin gives 20% this will help him out. Heavy Draw is strong but lacks range like Curved Shot though the difference in damage is noticeable. Kind of like switching from a pistol to a shotgun. And having close counter should felix start using bows can prevent him from being a sitting duck.

Though in fairness Sniper Felix is also very enticing because of Hunter's Volley and his strength growth will jump up from 55% - 60% making him one of the hardest hitting snipers in the game. Bernie and Shamir are the other notable sniper candidates too of course. So if were to go Assassin, he would want something like Sword Prowess Level 5, Bow Prowess Level 5, Close Counter, Death Blow, and perhaps Axebreaker, Hit +20, or maybe even Strength +2 to go really well with Death Blow. Sniper would probably want something like Bow Prowess Level 5, Hit +20, Close Counter, Dexterity +4 (maybe) and Weight -3 (maybe) if you care about him having Aegis Shield. Aegis Shield does help out his shaky defense and let's him fire away with Hunter's Volley. So IMO either one is good.

 

And of course, I think that raising 10 units should be enough and you can have someone you don't train too much be your dancer and then maybe some other recruit you can use to rally spam. Ignatz is another okay choice for rally support unit as speed and dex can be helpful. Rally strength as well but you would have to raise his authority all the way to rank S which is no fun. If not then the Ashen Wolves should be more than enough for you.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 5/27/2020 at 2:07 PM, Shadow Mir said:

I don't think Defiant skills are worth it, honestly, so I don't see why you brought them up. Incidentally, my main gripe with the Master classes is that very few of them have worthwhile mastery abilities. I mean, for a game with 4 class tiers, I'd have expected them to do better with regards to that...

Defiant Avoid/Crit are actually a really good combo, especially when paired with Alert Stance +. With these three tools, coupled with Retribution support, I managed to make Ingrid into an enemy-phase killing machine during the last couple maps of Azure Moon. Add to this an Avoid-boosting battalion or Evasion Ring, and the built-in Avoid+10 from flying classes, and she faces sub-20 Hit rates from most enemies, and a lot attacked her with 0 Hit. It's not a perfect strategy (hits can make it through, rarely, and she was still susceptible to gambits). Even so, she was able to clear out entire rooms in Enbarr.

Agreed that many other Master-tier mastery skills are quite bad, though. Defiant Defense and Resistance are jokes (enemy attack tends to be too high for these to make a difference), while Warding Blow is pretty crap too (mages are easy enough to player-phase without facing a counter-attack).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 5/26/2020 at 9:21 AM, Marlowe said:

Caspar I'm a little worried about. I could've recruited him earlier, but recruited him in Chapter 12 thinking I'd get the best stats. He's at least got a decent chance of certifying to War Master in the next month or so, which I want him to have before doing his paralogue. But I'm still worried about how viable he'll be for taking down DK.

Caspar can actually pretty reliable KO the DK at chapter 12 base. Freikugel+Smash gives him about 80% hit and 30% crit, and it's a OHKO with the crit. Without the Freikugel, you can reclass him into a warrior, and the devil axe will be strong enough to OHKO with a crit. 

 

I actually just did this on my NG maddening BL run, so I can vouch for it

Edited by Mousefire
Link to comment
Share on other sites

40 minutes ago, Mousefire said:

Caspar can actually pretty reliable KO the DK at chapter 12 base. Freikugel+Smash gives him about 80% hit and 30% crit, and it's a OHKO with the crit. Without the Freikugel, you can reclass him into a warrior, and the devil axe will be strong enough to OHKO with a crit. 

 

I actually just did this on my NG maddening BL run, so I can vouch for it

So I'm guessing for Caspar you must have given him Axe Prowess Level 5, Lancebreaker, Vantage, Death Blow, Wrath with a Critical/Accuracy Ring? Because that is the easiest approach for him if not Grappler or War Master for him.

I was also considering Caspar being a Grappler because he would get Fierce Iron Fist. In that case, his progression would probably be fighter, brigand, war monk, grappler. The War Monk is there for the Brawl Avoid +20 and I guess pending on his stats he gets a nice boost to his Res which he is severely lacking in.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Defiant Avoid/Crit are actually a really good combo, especially when paired with Alert Stance +. With these three tools, coupled with Retribution support, I managed to make Ingrid into an enemy-phase killing machine during the last couple maps of Azure Moon. Add to this an Avoid-boosting battalion or Evasion Ring, and the built-in Avoid+10 from flying classes, and she faces sub-20 Hit rates from most enemies, and a lot attacked her with 0 Hit. It's not a perfect strategy (hits can make it through, rarely, and she was still susceptible to gambits). Even so, she was able to clear out entire rooms in Enbarr.

Agreed that many other Master-tier mastery skills are quite bad, though. Defiant Defense and Resistance are jokes (enemy attack tends to be too high for these to make a difference), while Warding Blow is pretty crap too (mages are easy enough to player-phase without facing a counter-attack).

The thing is, by that point I'd have 5 better abilities than a stat boost that requires a really narrow HP threshold to do anything and is a dead slot otherwise. What are you willing to give up for Defiant Avoid/Crit???

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Barren said:

So I'm guessing for Caspar you must have given him Axe Prowess Level 5, Lancebreaker, Vantage, Death Blow, Wrath with a Critical/Accuracy Ring? Because that is the easiest approach for him if not Grappler or War Master for him.

I was also considering Caspar being a Grappler because he would get Fierce Iron Fist. In that case, his progression would probably be fighter, brigand, war monk, grappler. The War Monk is there for the Brawl Avoid +20 and I guess pending on his stats he gets a nice boost to his Res which he is severely lacking in.

Not even. I didn't invest in Caspar at all. I recruited him at level 23 at chapter 12. The timeskip got him to level 26 and B axes. He had Axe Prowess 4 and lancebreaker. I made him a grappler, with a lucky test pass, but it didn't matter. I tried it using him as a brigand, and it worked too. 

Smash+Freikugel+Jeralt's Mercenaries+Hit Ring gave him enough might, crit, and hit to reliably KO the death knight with a minimal amount of save scumming. And this was with no investment needed. It depends a little bit on when you do the chapter (the DK gains a point in every stat due to levels chapter 16 and beyond) and the level ups Caspar gets after the timeskip, but I think those differences can be made up with a brawlers battalion or some chip damage from Mercedes. 

Caspar is a good grappler, because grappler is a really good class and he slots right in to it. But if you haven't invested into Caspar, it doesn't get you much, as his damage isn't high enough without the help of a high might weapon. 

Edited by Mousefire
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Another update: I just beat Gronder. Thanks to recruiting Petra and Bernie I was able to get through without killing any students! Just before that, I also cleared the Caspar-Mercedes paralogue. I had him classed up to War Master with Killer Gauntlets+ and Jeralt's Mercenaries, along with Death Blow and Lv4 proficiency with the Gauntlets and using his Bombard art for the highest crit rate possible. I was prepared to use Divine Pulse to scum it, but he ended up getting a crit and a second hit on my first try! The harder part in that chapter was figuring out how to deal with the reinforcements, which I had completely forgotten about.

I'm experimenting with giving Ingrid the Scythe of Sariel, as the light weight should sync well with her high speed. I haven't tried the Brave Lance yet, but I don't think Grappler-quads would be more of a problem than they already have been—that is to say, she is banned from being left in grappler range. Dedue tanks their punches like Rocky. Ashe has gone from a minor liability to a major asset, with fragility as his only weakness.

While I'm juggling this game with Xenoblade now, the next challenges are going to be Fhirdiad and Rhea's paralogue.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 6/1/2020 at 1:44 PM, Shadow Mir said:

The thing is, by that point I'd have 5 better abilities than a stat boost that requires a really narrow HP threshold to do anything and is a dead slot otherwise. What are you willing to give up for Defiant Avoid/Crit???

Since this is an enemy-phase-oriented build, there's no need for player-phase skills, like Death Blow and Darting Blow. You're not using offensive gambits either, so no Authority Lv. X. The skills you want are those that improve your offensive and evasive abilities when under attack, such as:

Lance Prowess Lv. 5

Swordbreaker (if many Sword units on the field)

Wrath (if you mastered Warrior)

Lance Crit +10 / Lancefaire (you probably don't have these yet)

Speed +2 / Strength +2

Keep in mind, you can only use 2 of the above (Alert Stance + is essential to this build). I would just do Lance (or Sword, or Axe) Prowess Lv. 5, and whatever else feels situationally useful. Still, you don't need many extra skills to make this build work. The three skills (Alert Stance +, Defiant Avoid, Defiant Crit) are strong enough in tandem to enemy-phase a ton of mooks. It takes a good weapon, stats, and retribution support, but the build can be quite lethal - and efficient.

Spoiler

Another update: I just beat Gronder. Thanks to recruiting Petra and Bernie I was able to get through without killing any students!

@Marlowe that's the real victory right there. I also recruited Petra and Bernie, but the Golden Deer were... not kind to me. Raphael, Ignatz, Leonie, and Lysithea all perished there.

I haven't gotten the Scythe yet (nor even done that paralogue), but I'm planning to on my current playthrough (SS Maddening). It looks like a neat thing to have. I wish more weapons (like the Crescent Sickle and Devil Axe/Sword) also used the Black icon.

Edited by Shanty Pete's 1st Mate
Response to Marlowe
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 6/4/2020 at 7:38 PM, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Since this is an enemy-phase-oriented build, there's no need for player-phase skills, like Death Blow and Darting Blow. You're not using offensive gambits either, so no Authority Lv. X. The skills you want are those that improve your offensive and evasive abilities when under attack, such as:

Lance Prowess Lv. 5

Swordbreaker (if many Sword units on the field)

Wrath (if you mastered Warrior)

Lance Crit +10 / Lancefaire (you probably don't have these yet)

Speed +2 / Strength +2

Keep in mind, you can only use 2 of the above (Alert Stance + is essential to this build). I would just do Lance (or Sword, or Axe) Prowess Lv. 5, and whatever else feels situationally useful. Still, you don't need many extra skills to make this build work. The three skills (Alert Stance +, Defiant Avoid, Defiant Crit) are strong enough in tandem to enemy-phase a ton of mooks. It takes a good weapon, stats, and retribution support, but the build can be quite lethal - and efficient.

Problem is, it requires mastering two master tier classes, which takes at least 100 fights. And that could potentially be for each of the classes in question. Long story short, this feels too finicky to be even remotely practical.

Edited by Shadow Mir
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

Problem is, it requires mastering two master tier classes, which takes at least 100 fights. And that could potentially be for each of the classes in question. Long story short, this feels too finicky to be even remotely practical.

It takes a long time to get to, sure, but they're two of the best classes in the game - it's not like you're slogging through an inferior class just for the mastery skill. And if you master Falcon Knight first, you can do the build without Defiant Crit, and just use a high-crit weapon - you won't be scoring crits all the time, but you'll get them often enough (and do enough damage otherwise, in a class like Wyvern Lord) to kill almost anyone in two rounds. This was basically what I did on Azure Moon - I didn't master Wyvern Lord until just before the Endgame. But in the few chapters leading up to it, even without Defiant Crit (i.e. just an Alert Stance+/Defiant Avo build), Ingrid was performing excellently on enemy phase.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

It takes a long time to get to, sure, but they're two of the best classes in the game - it's not like you're slogging through an inferior class just for the mastery skill. And if you master Falcon Knight first, you can do the build without Defiant Crit, and just use a high-crit weapon - you won't be scoring crits all the time, but you'll get them often enough (and do enough damage otherwise, in a class like Wyvern Lord) to kill almost anyone in two rounds. This was basically what I did on Azure Moon - I didn't master Wyvern Lord until just before the Endgame. But in the few chapters leading up to it, even without Defiant Crit (i.e. just an Alert Stance+/Defiant Avo build), Ingrid was performing excellently on enemy phase.

And your point is...? Because even if they're both good classes, that does absolutely nothing to change the fact that it's impractical as all get out, and not just because of the narrow HP threshold that the Defiant abilities work on. If I really wanted to use Defiant skills, I'd do it in Heroes, where there's virtually no risk as opposed to the shitload of risk there'd be in this game.

Edited by Shadow Mir
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1.) IMO Holy Knight isn't worth it. It's good in theory, but Marianne is better off going Dark Knight or Valkyrie if you want her to be a mounted magic user. I'm tempted to say Valkyrie, for that sweet +1 Range and I just like the Valkyrie armor a lot.

2.) I voted Pure Bow, mainly because Bow Knight Felix is the best endgame class for him imo. The only shame about it is that you won't be able to see Felix in his dodge tank glory, but being able to one round snipe is a boon for your army. However, it doesn't hurt to have him use swords, if you ever felt compelled to have something like the Ranger class and you want him to dodge against axe units.

3.) In my experience, you can realistically get 12 characters passed the level 30 mark. Some will have more detailed builds than others though.

4.) I realized you're almost done with the game. How exciting! 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...