April's Legendary Hero: Edelgard

[Troykv]

9 minutes ago, Icelerate said:

I would move Ephraim to the same tier as RD!Ike because other characters in tier 2 also don't appear since the beginning. 

I put Ephraim in Tier 2.1 precisely because of that, he's for the most part in the same situation as RD!Ike... if you play his route; if you go for Eirika's Route, Ephraim essentially turns into a Lyn (well... isn't that bad, he isn't as unimportant as Lyn, but you're completely capable of don't using him, outside of the Final Chapter)

Edited April 29, 2020 by Troykv

[Eltosian Kadath]

2 hours ago, Troykv said:

Oh yeah, I'm not saying she is needed to complete the story, but the game is really suggesting she is needed, I think Julia most important contribution is to avoid getting soft locked against Julius (dealing with Julius without Julia isn't impossible, but it's an incredible tedious process, and below 50% HP only Seliph, Larcei and Ulster can fight him without insta-dying).

Sorry to get a bit side tracked, but this is just inaccurate enough to really bother me. First off Larcei and Ulster would be useless against Julius unless you glitch them the Balmung, which is entirely unnecessary as Shannan can hit avoid rates high enough for Julius to be unable to hit (and thus not face insta-death) if you stack enough charisma, leadership, lover bonus, and speed ring (if you are staggeringly unlucky you might need the extra charisma of Laylea, or could use it to replace the speed ring or lover bonus). I will also point out that Julius's death quote when Seliph finishes him is a clear reference to the death quotes of Medeus, and even the ending poem of Gaiden, which implies Seliph killing Julius is the most canonical ending. That being said Julia still deserve to be a legendary hero (I mean people like Azura have been called Legendary Heros), they just need to add more Legendary Heroes from Jugdral.

[Fire Emblem Fan]

1 hour ago, Troykv said:

It's time for the Main Character Gameplay/Story Importance Tier List!

Tier 1 (Pretty much always important to the plot, you literally can't remove yourself of them, unless you do skirmish or online battle in some cases).

Marth, Alm, Sigurd/Seliph, Leif, Roy, PoR!Ike, Chrom, Corrin, Byleth.

Tier 1.5 (The awkward Eirika corner, there is one choice that can potentially turn Eirika into essentially an honorary Tier 1 character, but the other choices ends up lowering her in the categories)

Eirika

Tier 2 (You don't always play with them, but when you have access you need to use them, they're almost always important)

Celica, Eliwood/Hector, Micaiah, RD!Ike, the 3H Class Leaders

Tier 2.1 (The awkward Ephraim corner, pretty much the same deal as Eirika, but he doesn't have the advantage of appearing since the very beginning)

Ephraim

Tier 3 (Main character for technicalities, but aren't treated the same way as the ones above, for several reasons).

Lyn, PoR!Elincia, Lucina

Tier 4 (Misc.; includes pseudo lords, ej. Tibarn; some of the characters that are considered Caedas; and very special cases like Julia)

Other characters

I would move Lyn up one for the simple reason that her story is unskippable when you first play FE7. She gets a whole quarter of the game to herself where she is the main, central character (there's 43 chapters total, with all paralogues, xenologues, and epilogues combined; a quarter of 43 is 10.75, round up to 11, only one away from Lyn's exclusive 12 chapters).

[Troykv]

42 minutes ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

Sorry to get a bit side tracked, but this is just inaccurate enough to really bother me. First off Larcei and Ulster would be useless against Julius unless you glitch them the Balmung, which is entirely unnecessary as Shannan can hit avoid rates high enough for Julius to be unable to hit (and thus not face insta-death) if you stack enough charisma, leadership, lover bonus, and speed ring (if you are staggeringly unlucky you might need the extra charisma of Laylea, or could use it to replace the speed ring or lover bonus). I will also point out that Julius's death quote when Seliph finishes him is a clear reference to the death quotes of Medeus, and even the ending poem of Gaiden, which implies Seliph killing Julius is the most canonical ending. That being said Julia still deserve to be a legendary hero (I mean people like Azura have been called Legendary Heros), they just need to add more Legendary Heroes from Jugdral.

Oh yeah, I wasn't considering Charisma stacking to be fair; because I don't remember how high the evasion stat actually went with everything setup, that is the only other way to avoid Julius insta-death besides being a Nihil Children.

40 minutes ago, Fire Emblem Fan said:

I would move Lyn up one for the simple reason that her story is unskippable when you first play FE7. She gets a whole quarter of the game to herself where she is the main, central character (there's 43 chapters total, with all paralogues, xenologues, and epilogues combined; a quarter of 43 is 10.75, round up to 11, only one away from Lyn's exclusive 12 chapters).

Lyn is technically a Tier 2 Protagonist in a first playthrough (thought only in the International Version), and turns into a Tier 3 one in the next ones (or since the beginning if you're playing OG!FE7)... I guess I should include another awkward corner for her? XD

Now I'm trying to think where I would fit Azura in all of this, because I forgot to include her hahahah xD

Edited April 29, 2020 by Troykv

[Icelerate]

35 minutes ago, Fire Emblem Fan said:

I would move Lyn up one for the simple reason that her story is unskippable when you first play FE7. She gets a whole quarter of the game to herself where she is the main, central character (there's 43 chapters total, with all paralogues, xenologues, and epilogues combined; a quarter of 43 is 10.75, round up to 11, only one away from Lyn's exclusive 12 chapters).

In the Japanese version, the tutorial is skippable from the beginning. Lyn's chapters are a lot shorter though so in terms of story content, I wouldn't say the game is a quarter of the story. 

[Fire Emblem Fan]

14 minutes ago, Icelerate said:

In the Japanese version, the tutorial is skippable from the beginning. Lyn's chapters are a lot shorter though so in terms of story content, I wouldn't say the game is a quarter of the story. 

We can't go by the Japanese version because we are not getting the Japanese turn of events, or Japanese age for Lyn, or any other such thing; we're getting the 18-year-old, the outside-Japan unskippable version, etc.
The game is a quarter of her story. Saying "it's full of short chapters" is, to me, like saying Three Houses is only half a game, because it splits four separate ways and chapters can and are often shorter.

[Baldrick]

2 hours ago, Troykv said:

It's time for the Main Character Gameplay/Story Importance Tier List!

Gameplay importance is easy to quantify with % of availability and forced deployment etc., but story importance is far more subjective and needs far more consideration. In any case, I disagree that anyone who isn’t a lord or a main character should be in the same tier as Brigand Boss.

[daisy jane]

Okay - after taking a day to think about this - I think IS really dropped the ball here.  I was expecting the Time Skip War arc to be Legendaries - but their final classes, that being 

Emperor Edelgard (Gold Armour)
Great Lord Dimitri (White/Blue Battle Gear)
Barborssa Claude (White Wyvern). 

and that the first wave war-arc would just be time-skip alts. (not CYL, per se). So it makes me wonder what's going to happen to those costumes (maybe they will  be used in CYL 4 in some form but that is kinda lazy but we'll see). 

Raging Storm is a thing, and that means basically Fallen Star, Atrocity & Paraslene are on the table. 

Claude will be a Flying Bow Lord . his glass upgrade gave him pass, and Fallen Star allowed him to avoid all actions the next turn (if it hit) and Effective against dragons. I doubt very much Failnaught will have range of 3, so i have no idea how that will be compensated)
Weapon: Failnaught
grants spd+3. unit (or allies) can move up to 2 spaces adjacent of unit.

Move Assist: None
Special: Moonbow/Glimmer/(pick)
A Skill: Aurora's Shield (or Alymra's Protector)  nullifies effectiveness against fliers.grants [stat boost] during combat and unit can counterattack  regardless of foe's range.
B Skill: Fallen Star  (some form of null follow up, dragon effectiveness would probably be included in here).
C Skill: Ground Orders.

In the Game Claude had a 45% Atk Growth, a 55% Spd Growth 30% Def Growth and a 25% Res Growth. 
(but a great luck growth which allowed him to crit. we don't have that so however the game compensates that, we'll see. 

This kit basically allows a lot of Flier-nanigans (and allow him to basically be all "Lilith-light" in being able to move all over the map - and allow allies too).It could give him the close counter that he gets being an archer classs in the game, and the nullification that S+ fliers get (and again drawing on the shield in the game). 

 

Dimitri . 
Well. Atrocity is basically in the game already, with Baby Caeda. and Honestly, while thinking about it - I'd rather them just put Atrocity in Areadbhar like they have with Caeda. they could have it be the same i suppose. minus magic, daggers  and coloured weapons. (for the sake of fairness LOL) - or toss daggers in there since he's a legendary. 

He is also the only unit in the entire game who has Battalion Wrath and Vantage - this could be his personal skill. (shame killing intent is already taken). so basically. once he's at low health. a vantage/wrath smash to the face coming right at you.  so it could be something like this. 

Dimitri: Tempest King 
Weapon: Areadbhar
grants atk + 3. effective against [melee, bows and dagger]. ignores skills that disables unit and foes skills that change attack priority. 

Move Reposition
Special:none  (or Paraslene see above)

A Skill: Distant Counter 
B Skill: All Must Fall!  If unit's HP ≤ 75%, Special cooldown count-1 at start of turn if Special triggers by attacking and unit counter attacks first. If Special triggers, +10 damage from Special

OR

He has Paraslene. Which is basically Knock back, so this could literally be a prf atk/def  based close call option knock back that reduces damage. by 40% of atk or def.
 

C Skill Joint Drive Def. 

(referencing the fact that he's kinda alone but he does get support from the others). 

 

Dimitri in game had a 60% Atk growth. 40% def, 50% speed, and 20% res (and high hp). so i think just middling speed. massive attack and workable defense. what would hurt in this build is that you couldn't run special spiral unless they got really bonkers and threw it in the sword ala Ares. 

[Xenomata]

7 hours ago, Tybrosion said:

Excuse me while I leave this here since you chose to not even acknowledge it the first time:

 

Honestly... screw their legendary status? Fjorm kinda gets a pass... barely... maybe... but we didn't even properly meet Gunnthra until she was literally dying, and Hrid... I mean... I guess he got close to Surtr and didn't die? That Ylgr is also not legendary should be considered a miracle...

3 hours ago, Troykv said:

Now I'm trying to think where I would fit Azura in all of this, because I forgot to include her hahahah xD

First of all, I can agree with the tier list.
Azura... I almost would consider her the main "lord" of Fire Emblem Fates as a whole just because of how important she is to the behind-the-scenes conflict (and how much of a wet paper bag Corrin is as a lord). Yeah she's not really required in the end and she can die like anyone else, but there are chapters where your unit numbers are super limited and she's one of the few you can possibly field... maybe something like a 3.5 or 3? 2 feels a little too kind, since I cannot recall any possible time you are outright forced to use her and keep her alive, but 4 is just rude.

...putting aside the whole Singer thing anyway. And Shigure's paralogue, but that's cheating, every parent is that way.

[Icelerate]

2 hours ago, Fire Emblem Fan said:

We can't go by the Japanese version because we are not getting the Japanese turn of events, or Japanese age for Lyn, or any other such thing; we're getting the 18-year-old, the outside-Japan unskippable version, etc.
The game is a quarter of her story. Saying "it's full of short chapters" is, to me, like saying Three Houses is only half a game, because it splits four separate ways and chapters can and are often shorter.

Fair enough. 

How does that analogy work? Each Three Houses chapter has far more narrative content than each chapter in Lyn mode especially when at least half of Lyn mode was filler fleeing from a bunch of bandits who were only chasing you because Florina accidentally fell on them. 

[Landmaster]

If this is correct, it would appear you can use Raging Storm and Galeforce for three total actions

I would still wait until we see it in practice for certainty 

[Ice Dragon]

3 hours ago, Fire Emblem Fan said:

We can't go by the Japanese version because we are not getting the Japanese turn of events, or Japanese age for Lyn, or any other such thing; we're getting the 18-year-old, the outside-Japan unskippable version, etc.

"We can't go by the Japanese version, so Sigurd, Seliph, and Roy simply don't exist."

Edited April 29, 2020 by Ice Dragon

[Fire Emblem Fan]

34 minutes ago, Icelerate said:

How does that analogy work? Each Three Houses chapter has far more narrative content than each chapter in Lyn mode especially when at least half of Lyn mode was filler fleeing from a bunch of bandits who were only chasing you because Florina accidentally fell on them. 

Eh, I wouldn't call it filler when you're recruiting characters from it (Wil, Dorcas, Erk, Serra). If that's filler, then 90% of the entire franchise is nothing but filler.

3 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

We can't go by the Japanese version, so Sigurd, Seliph, and Roy simply don't exist.

You know exactly what I meant but good job being a stuck up little dick as you always are.

[Icelerate]

4 minutes ago, Fire Emblem Fan said:

Eh, I wouldn't call it filler when you're recruiting characters from it (Wil, Dorcas, Erk, Serra). If that's filler, then 90% of the entire franchise is nothing but filler.

 

Those four don't really have much plot relevance except Wil IIRC. 

[XRay]

33 minutes ago, Landmaster said:

If this is correct, it would appear you can use Raging Storm and Galeforce for three total actions

That would make me so happy if true! FE!Edelgard would have a niche! How good that niche is though is probably another story, but at least she can do something no other armors can.

[Ice Dragon]

14 minutes ago, Fire Emblem Fan said:

You know exactly what I meant but good job being a stuck up little dick as you always are.

Just because you only have easy access to one version of the game doesn't invalidate other versions of the game that might be slightly different.

If you are disqualifying the JP version of Blazing Sword simply because "you didn't get that version of the game in your region", then the other games that were never officially released in your region should also be disqualified for the same reason. You're applying a double standard because it is convenient to your argument.

Edited April 29, 2020 by Ice Dragon

[Troykv]

I usually give more validation to the original version of a game for story purposes (unless a re-release appears in the original language that is just the original but with extra stuff).

That way I think the overall story of FE3H makes more sense overall.

[Icelerate]

2 minutes ago, Troykv said:

I usually give more validation to the original version of a game for story purposes (unless a re-release appears in the original language that is just the original but with extra stuff).

That way I think the overall story of FE3H makes more sense overall.

So extra additions like base conversations in RD have weight but entire rewrites aren't? Personally, I think if a plot point is handled better in the localization, we shouldn't invalidate it just because it is inconsistent with the source material. 

[Troykv]

6 minutes ago, Icelerate said:

So extra additions like base conversations in RD have weight but entire rewrites aren't? Personally, I think if a plot point is handled better in the localization, we shouldn't invalidate it just because it is inconsistent with the source material. 

I take it into account, but I don't considerate it the ultimate canon unless a future re-release in the original language does so (which was what happened with TMS now that I think about it).

Edited April 29, 2020 by Troykv

[Ice Dragon]

12 minutes ago, Icelerate said:

So extra additions like base conversations in RD have weight but entire rewrites aren't? Personally, I think if a plot point is handled better in the localization, we shouldn't invalidate it just because it is inconsistent with the source material. 

I'm pretty sure he meant that if there are inconsistencies between multiple versions, the original holds more weight than the others, but doesn't override the others.

Personally, I think that all versions can be held on their own merits, but inconsistencies should be dealt with based on the reason behind why the inconsistency exists (or at least a reasonable argument as to why it exists if a definitive reason isn't known).

For example, in the case of Lyn's route being skippable in the Japanese version (assuming it was because hell If I remember if it was when I played it over a decade ago), I'd argue that the ability to skip Lyn's route is an indicator of the importance of her story. The most logical reason as to why it was not skippable in the localized versions is not because her story had more importance in those versions, but because the localization team probably wanted to make sure players new to the series or genre would not get lost by skipping the tutorial as this was the first game in the series that was localized.

As an opposite example, the Black Knight's Warp Powder malfunctioning is the type of excuse I'd expect someone to give for not turning in their homework. While the explanation in the localization was completely different, it made a lot more sense in terms of story and character continuity.

 

6 minutes ago, Troykv said:

(which was what happened with TMS now that I think about it).

I'm never accepting the revised version of TMS as canon ever.

Edited April 29, 2020 by Ice Dragon

[Darkmoon6789]

Well, I am ecstatic. Time skip Edelgard is probably my favourite version of the character and I am a fanatic when it comes to Edelgard. The only drawback about this is that I can't let this opportunity has been by so I am willing to spend a pretty ridiculous amount of money to get this hero. If people wonder why characters like Edelgard are so often chosen it is probably because it probably earns them quite a lot of money from people like me. 

So what would be an optimal setup for this particular hero? Flame Emperor Edelgard that is, not to be confused with Flame Emperor, Bringer of War, or Arvis, Emperor of Flame. Freaking ridiculous amount of Flame Emperors.

Someone mentioned galeforce? I am guessing keeping most of her abilities is fine. I would be tempted to inherit her C skill to the Flame Emperor. If I get any spares. That is if this would be effective, their movement problem is probably at the unit's biggest weakness. Uncertain if I should do that or just merge the spares with Edelgard Flame Emperor. 

Someone mentioned the idea of having Rhea as a mythic hero in the future, would love that, especially if she is displaying her full glory rather than being just another holy caster. Anyone who has played three houses probably knows what I mean with Rhea's full glory. 

[Icelerate]

5 minutes ago, Troykv said:

I take it into account, but I don't considerate it the ultimate canon unless a future re-release in the original language does so (which was what happened with TMS now that I think about it).

Both of them hold weight because the publishing company that owns the franchise gave the right to the official translation team making it just as binding. Also, since most people here don't speak or can read Japanese, I'm going to use the English script for convenience purposes so that is the default position. 

1 minute ago, Ice Dragon said:

I'm pretty sure he meant that if there are inconsistencies between multiple versions, the original holds more weight than the others, but doesn't override the others.

Personally, I think that all versions can be held on their own merits, but inconsistencies should be dealt with based on the reason behind why the inconsistency exists (or at least a reasonable argument as to why it exists if a definitive reason isn't known).

For example, in the case of Lyn's route being skippable in the Japanese version (assuming it was because hell If I remember if it was when I played it over a decade ago), I'd argue that the ability to skip Lyn's route is an indicator of the importance of her story. The most logical reason as to why it was not skippable in the localized versions is not because her story had more importance in those versions, but because the localization team probably wanted to make sure players new to the series or genre would not get lost by skipping the tutorial as this was the first game in the series that was localized.

 

I'm never accepting the revised version of TMS as canon ever.

I agree with that. However, if someone in the English speaking world is going to analyse a story or character in detail, they can just assume the English version is binding because they don't have access to the Japanese script generally speaking. 

Of course once it becomes apparent that there is a contradiction, it should be looked at in greater detail. 

Official translations have more weight than fan translations but when I play the Japanese games, I experience the fan translations, hence me talking about the game is going to be from that perspective. 

[Fire Emblem Fan]

42 minutes ago, Icelerate said:

 

Those four don't really have much plot relevance except Wil IIRC. 

Perhaps but how many characters across the franchise really do have plot relevance?

40 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Just because you only have easy access to one version of the game doesn't invalidate other versions of the game that might be slightly different.

If you are disqualifying the JP version of Blazing Sword simply because "you didn't get that version of the game in your region", then the other games that were never officially released in your region should also be disqualified for the same reason. You're applying a double standard because it is convenient to your argument.

That's not what I'm doing, and I have in no way, shape, or form used any sort of double standard for a convenience of argument. In this English forum, the English version of things is generally considered the standard; that's all, I don't mean much more than that.
And regardless of that, there's a specific reason why Lyn's tale is skippable in Japan but not anywhere else: Japan knows how to play Fire Emblem, the rest of the world had yet to experience it, as you said. So, no matter what way it's spun, Lyn's tale is still something that's important to the world at large. IS even clearly considers her on the same level as the other main protagonists of the franchise, even outside of Heroes. She was the one to get a DLC form in Awakening, for example.

It's great you have Fire Emblem knowledge, but you can make your points without talking down to people about them. It feels like you're just trying to pick a fight and get people to bite back, like I did.

Edited April 29, 2020 by Fire Emblem Fan

[Sunwoo]

Sorry, FE Fan, but I actually gotta agree with Ice Dragon on this one.

And personally, I think even if Lyn's mode has some importance to the world as a whole, it's overall less important than the rest of the game. It's a prologue that sets up some stuff that happens before the main story, which gives you some context and an early introduction to some of the characters you recruit, but isn't necessary for the rest of the story to make sense.

Lyn being available as Awakening DLC even though Hector and Eliwood is something. But when we got Katarina, the pegasus sisters, and Elincia instead of Sigurd or the Blazing dudes, I don't think being plot relevant or a main character is all there is to it.

EDIT: There's something else I thought of, too. Japan could've, you know, not made Lyn's mode skippable. They could've just as easily put in an option to not include all the tutorial-esque things in there and make it play normally to the rest of the game. Like how Lyn's Hard Mode lets you avoid the tutorial, but you can't avoid playing Lyn's Normal Tutorial Mode the first time you start a game on a new cartridge.

Edited April 29, 2020 by Sunwoo

[eclipse]

HEY.  Back to the topic.

Which is now about what I'm going to pull.

Red - Merges are a yes, and I will not complain if Marth finally shows up.
Blue - I'd welcome any of them.  Nagi and Ephraim will be new, while Tsubasa will fix my -Spd.
Green - Name three units I don't have.
Colorless - Eir is fodder, and I'm not exactly thrilled with Larum or Silque.

Colorwise, it's green > blue > red >> colorless