Melee Roster Reboot

[Perkilator]

If Melee weren’t rushed, would do you think the roster would look like? Just for reference, here’s the canon Melee roster:

-Mario, Luigi, Peach, Bowser and Dr. Mario

-DK and Yoshi

-Link, Zelda/Sheik, Young Link and Ganondorf

-Samus and Kirby

-Fox and Falco

-Pikachu, Jigglypuff, Pichu and Mewtwo

-Ness and Captain Falcon

-Ice Climbers and Mr. Game and Watch

-Marth and Roy

Cuts

-Ness (comes back in Brawl)

-Jigglypuff (comes back in Brawl)

-Dr. Mario

-Pichu

-Roy

Replacements/Additions

-Meowth (replaces Jigglypuff)

-Wario (replaces Dr. Mario)

-Heracross (replaces Pichu)

-Caeda (replaces Roy)

-Pit

-Balloon Fighter

-Banjo and Kazooie

-Ayumi Tachibana

-Mach Rider

-Adeleine and Ribbon

 

Starters

-Mario

-DK

-Link

-Samus

-Yoshi

-Kirby

-Fox

-Pikachu

-Peach

-Bowser

-Ice Climbers

-Meowth

-Zelda/Sheik

 

Unlockables

-Luigi (Complete Adventure Mode with an “:X2” after the first stage)

-Captain Falcon (Complete Classic Mode with no continues)

-Wario (Complete Classic/Adventure Mode as Mario with no continues or play 10 Coin Battles)

-Adeleine and Ribbon (Complete Event Match #16 or win 15 Vs. Matches without healing)

-Heracross (Complete Event Match #37 or K.O. an opponent with a Poké Ball Pokémon 10 times)

-Marth (Use all 13 starters in Classic/Adventure Mode or complete either on Hard with 5 characters)

-Pit (Battle on Temple 25 times or get 20 Star K.O.’s)

-Balloon Fighter (Play on Icicle Mountain for a combined total of 60 Mins.)

-Mach Rider (Run all the way to the end on Race to the Finish as all 13 starters or complete 100 Man Melee)

-Ayumi Tachibana (Complete Adventure Mode as 3 of Ice Climbers, Marth, Pit, Balloon Fighter and/or Mach Rider)

-Caeda (Complete Classic/Adventure Mode as Marth on Hard or with no continues)

-Falco (Complete 100 Man Melee as Fox)

-Young Link (Complete Classic on Normal or higher as Link and Zelda/Sheik or win 20 battles as Link)

-Ganondorf (Complete Event Match #29 or complete Classic/Adventure Mode as Link, Zelda/Sheik and Young Link)

-Mewtwo (Play VS. Mode for 20 hours or complete Classic/Adventure Mode as Pikachu, Meowth and Heracross on Normal or higher)

-Banjo and Kazooie (Complete Classic/Adventure Mode as Mario, DK, Kirby, King Dedede and Young Link on Normal or higher or win 40 team battles)

-Mr. Game & Watch (Complete Adventure Mode, Classic Mode, and Target Test as every other character)

Edited May 7, 2020 by Perkilator

[Jotari]

I always thought it would be a funny what if to consider how things would have turned out if Leif had got into Melee instead of Roy. He was planned for it apparently, and unsurprisingly so as Thracia was released in between the first two Smash Bros. games (yes, a SNES game was released between a Nintendo 64 and Gamecube Game).

[NSSKG151]

• Mario
• Luigi
• Peach
• Bowser
• Yoshi
• Link
• Zelda
• Ganondorf
• Pikachu
• Mewtwo
• Scizor
• Kirby
• King Dedede
• Donkey Kong
• King K Rool
• Samus
• Fox
• Wolf
• Captain Falcon
• Ness
• Marth
• Game and Watch
• Ice Climbers

So for my roster I pretty much removed all the clone characters plus Jigglypuff and added more of the villians I felt were reasonable to appear at the time.

[Lightcosmo]

2 hours ago, Jotari said:

I always thought it would be a funny what if to consider how things would have turned out if Leif had got into Melee instead of Roy. He was planned for it apparently, and unsurprisingly so as Thracia was released in between the first two Smash Bros. games (yes, a SNES game was released between a Nintendo 64 and Gamecube Game).

I find it funny that Roy is simply "Emblem" in the games data. Obviously a placeholder, but still funny nonetheless.

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, lightcosmo said:

I find it funny that Roy is simply "Emblem" in the games data. Obviously a placeholder, but still funny nonetheless.

The early release also means he doesn't actually resemble Binding Blade Roy in several ways. Most noteably he lacks any form of long range attack and the one attack he did have, his forward smash resembling his Master Lord attack animation, Marth stole meaning he lost it by the time he returned to the series. He also looks quite a bit older and fiercer. Although maybe that's just me.

[Fabulously Olivier]

Well, if Melee was released just a few years later, we would probably see Ike (instead of Roy), Viewtiful Joe, Krystal, and Isaac from Golden Sun. 

[Fire Emblem Fan]

I'm not entirely sure I understand what's being asked, but I'm going to assume...

On 5/1/2020 at 9:08 PM, Perkilator said:

If Melee weren’t rushed

...you're asking what the roster might be if it had come out later than it really did? With that assumption, I think the roster might be like this:

• Mario
• Luigi
• Peach
• Bowser
• Dr. Mario
• Yoshi
• Wario
• Donkey Kong
• Link
• Zelda
• Sheik
• Ganondorf
• Samus
• Kirby
• King Dedede
• Fox
• Falco
• Pikachu
• Jigglypuff
• Mewtwo
• Captain Falcon
• Ness
• Marth
• Lyn
• Pit
• The Ice Climbers
• Mr. Game & Watch

I think it'd be largely the same with just a couple key differences. Since it would be coming out at a later date, they'd probably have a couple extra characters (Wario, King Dedede, Pit), a character from the presumed most recent Fire Emblem game would be in alongside Marth instead of Roy (Lyn, I doubt Melee would be out before Path of Radiance even if it really had come out at a later date), I don't think Young Link would be present as Ocarina and Majora's Mask would be at least a whole year older than before, and I kinda feel like the Pichu joke would have been dropped.

[Lord_Brand]

I think it's a pity they didn't release an updated Melee near the end of the Gamecube's life span, with additional fighters, stages, music, and trophies.

Fighters

Spoiler

1. Mario
2. Luigi
3. Peach
4. Bowser
5. Dr. Mario
6. Daisy
7. Waluigi
8. Sunshine Mario
9. Donkey Kong
10. Diddy Kong
11. Link
12. Zelda/Sheik
13. Ganondorf
14. Young Link
15. Toon Link
16. Wolf Link & Midna
17. Samus Aran
18. Dark Samus
19. Kirby
20. King Dedede
21. Meta Knight
22. Yoshi
23. Fox
24. Falco
25. Wolf
26. Krystal
27. Pikachu
28. Jigglypuff
29. Mewtwo
30. Pichu
31. Captain Falcon
32. Ness
33. Marth
34. Roy
35. Ike
36. Ice Climbers
37. Mr. Game & Watch
38. Wario
39. Isaac
40. Olimar
41. Snake
42. Mega Man
43. Sonic the Hedgehog
44. Shadow the Hedgehog

Stages & Music

Spoiler

• Battlefield (Battlefield, Multi-Man Melee 1)
• Final Destination (Final Destination, Multi-Man Melee 2)
• Mushroom Kingdom (Overworld, Dr. Mario)
• Princess Peach's Castle (Super Mario Bros. Theme)
• Rainbow Cruise (Rainbow Ride, Airship)
• Subcon (Overworld)
• Luigi's Mansion (Luigi's Mansion, Ghost House)
• Delfino Plaza (Delfino Plaza, Ricco Harbor)
• Kongo Jungle (DK Rap)
• Jungle Japes (Jungle Hijinxs)
• Past Stages: Kongo Jungle (Kongo Jungle N64)
• Temple (Temple, Overworld Theme)
• Great Bay (Termina Field, Saria's Song)
• Pirate Ship (Pirate Ship, Molgera)
• Bridge of Eldin (Hyrule Field)
• Brinstar (Metroid Theme)
• Brinstar Depths (Brinstar Depths)
• Tallon IV (Title/Menu, VS. Metroid Prime Core)
• Aether (Title/Menu, VS. Dark Samus/Escape)
• Green Greens (Green Greens, Gourmet Race)
• Fountain of Dreams (Fountain of Dreams, Nightmare Wizard)
• Halberd (Meta Knight's Revenge, Meta Knight's Theme)
• Past Stages: Dream Land (Dream Land N64)
• Yoshi's Story (Yoshi's Story)
• Yoshi's Island (Super Mario Bros. 3, Super Mario World Title/Credits)
• Past Stages: Yoshi's Island (Yoshi's Island N64, )
• Corneria (Main Theme, Corneria)
• Venom (Venom, Star Wolf)
• Dinosaur Planet (Thorntail Hollow, Cape Claw)
• Pokemon Stadium (Pokemon Stadium, Battle Theme)
• Poke Floats (Trainer Battle)
• Mute City (Mute City, Fire Field)
• Big Blue (Big Blue, Mach Rider)
• Onett (Mother, Mother 2)
• Fourside (EarthBound, Mother 3)
• Coliseum (Battle Theme, Together We Ride!)
• Icicle Mountain (Icicle Mountain, Balloon Fight)
• Flat Zone (Flat Zone, Game & Watch Gallery 4)
• Birabuto Kingdom (Overworld, Underground)
• Wario's Castle (Pecan Sands, Black Jewel Phase 2)
• Distant Planet (Title Theme, The Forest of Hope)
• Shadow Moses Island (Cavern, Encounter)
• Wily Castle (Wily Castle)
• Green Hill Zone (Green Hill Zone, Emerald Hill Zone)
• Station Square (City Escape, Open Your Heart)
• Radical Highway (Radical Highway, Live and Learn)

 

Edited May 6, 2020 by Lord_Brand

[Zapp Branniglenn]

It's hard to imagine Melee coming out later than it did. It was sort of THE Gamecube tech demo. It's opening was not only the "announcement" for Melee, but the announcement of Nintendo games in general coming in the system's future. Technically not a launch title, but here in the US, the game arrived when the console was just two weeks old. 

My only real issues with the melee roster is Falco getting in over Wolf (Wolf is IN the game's intro). And Ridley being absent (again, IN the game's intro).

Edited May 4, 2020 by Glennstavos

[NinjaMonkey]

21 hours ago, Glennstavos said:

My only real issues with the melee roster is Falco getting in over Wolf

Sidekicks get in over villains. We saw that with Luigi in Smash 64 and Diddy in Brawl.

21 hours ago, Glennstavos said:

Ridley being absent

He was deemed to be too big, obviously.

[Lord_Brand]

On 5/4/2020 at 1:18 PM, Glennstavos said:

It's hard to imagine Melee coming out later than it did. It was sort of THE Gamecube tech demo. It's opening was not only the "announcement" for Melee, but the announcement of Nintendo games in general coming in the system's future. Technically not a launch title, but here in the US, the game arrived when the console was just two weeks old. 

My only real issues with the melee roster is Falco getting in over Wolf (Wolf is IN the game's intro). And Ridley being absent (again, IN the game's intro).

Hence why I think they could have released a Melee+ near the end of the GCN's lifespan. For that matter, they could have released Melee+ on Wii as well, like they did with Twilight Princess. The difference between Melee+ and Brawl would have been that Melee+ is still Melee, just with some extra content added on (and the option of adding more to the Wii version via DLC).

I too was bothered that Wolf wasn't in Melee. I would have put him in Smash 64. And I'm honestly not a big fan of Falco. I'm not against him being in there, but I wouldn't miss him too much if they cut him. Fox, Wolf, and Krystal would satisfy me.

[Jotari]

9 hours ago, NinjaMonkey said:

Sidekicks get in over villains. We saw that with Luigi in Smash 64 and Diddy in Brawl.

He was deemed to be too big, obviously.

Yet that game was responsible for the opening that showed him fighting Samus at an acceptable size.

[NinjaMonkey]

19 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Yet that game was responsible for the opening that showed him fighting Samus at an acceptable size.

I refer you to Sakurai's statements on why Ridley wasn't playable earlier on in the series.

[Jotari]

10 minutes ago, NinjaMonkey said:

I refer you to Sakurai's statements on why Ridley wasn't playable earlier on in the series.

i refer you to this.

[NinjaMonkey]

If Sakurai thought that he was too big for the game, then that's it. You can post whatever pictures you want, but that doesn't change anything. Also, it's not as though Metroid is on par with Mario, Zelda or Pokémon in terms of popularity (as Metroid doesn't sell well in Japan), so clearly it wasn't given much priority when it came to playable characters.

Edited May 6, 2020 by NinjaMonkey

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, NinjaMonkey said:

If Sakurai thought that he was too big for the game, then that's it. You can post whatever pictures you want, but that doesn't change anything. Also, it's not as though Metroid is on par with Mario, Zelda or Pokémon in terms of popularity (as Metroid doesn't sell well in Japan), so clearly it wasn't given much priority when it came to playable characters.

Yep. That's why its a good thing Ridley shrank between the release of SSB4 and Ultimate. Oh wait a second, he didn't. He didn't even appear in any games in that time frame. And he's now in Smash.

Edited May 6, 2020 by Jotari

[NinjaMonkey]

9 hours ago, Jotari said:

That's why its a good thing Ridley shrank between the release of SSB4 and Ultimate.

That Ridley is from Other M and is actually a clone of the original, so it doesn't count.

10 hours ago, Jotari said:

And he's now in Smash.

Just because it's possible now, doesn't mean that it was possible back then, and even if it was, he still might have not been in the game due to Metroid not being all that popular a franchise (as I stated earlier).

[Jotari]

36 minutes ago, NinjaMonkey said:

That Ridley is from Other M and is actually a clone of the original, so it doesn't count.

What the...? What does that have to do with anything? Other M was released three years before Smash 4. And even if it was released between the games then it wouldn't have any relevance at all since I was being facetious. Ridely didn't get put into Smash because he shrank at some point, he got in because resizing him was evidently possible.

36 minutes ago, NinjaMonkey said:

Just because it's possible now, doesn't mean that it was possible back then, and even if it was, he still might have not been in the game due to Metroid not being all that popular a franchise (as I stated earlier).

What makes you think it wasn't mechanically possible back then? And in regards to Metroid's sales it's probably doing worse as a series now (when Ridley has gotten into Smash) than it was at the time of Melee's release (granted it wasn't doing so hot in that era either, around the release of Brawl was the high point for the Metroid series).

[Perkilator]

Guys, can we NOT turn this into yet ANOTHER Ridley size debate? Thank you.

[Jotari]

18 hours ago, Perkilator said:

Guys, can we NOT turn this into yet ANOTHER Ridley size debate? Thank you.

It's rather baffling it can even be a topic of conversation when Ridley is already in Smash.

[AnonymousSpeed]

Another Ridley size debate is kind of funny.

So is saying "Sakurai said Ridley was too big" as a reason when Mashed Potatoes later went back on that.

The real objection, of course, isn't that Ridley is too big but that he typically has complete control of his flight. A character who can fly more or less wherever whenever doesn't mesh with how Smash Brothers is typically played, characters just don't mess with the physics that much (even if it would be kind of cool). They of course put him in anyway, and apparently people were okay with it.

***

I would have liked to seen Leif in the game, honestly. I like Roy a lot but it's fun to imagine a world where Thracia instead became one of the most internally popular Fire Emblem games. I'm not sure it would actually be that different from what we have today, with the humor in the situation simply being due to it being different. If he got to actually use the Light Brand and have ranged attacks in Smash, it would have been pretty cool.

***

Aside from making some clones more distinct though, I don't think the Melee roster needs many changes. It's not a bad roster. I might throw in Wolf or Wario or King K. Rool- I'd certain trade Pichu for any of them. I'd be fine scrapping every clone not named Ganondorf for one totally unique character or a light brand wielding Lief. If you wanted to have a Ridley who could fly more or less everywhere (perhaps having to land back down every now and then), totally flipping the regular gameplay on its head, I'll admit...that'd be cool. Honestly though, I don't think any of those additions are completely necessary.

Leif > Ridley > Sheik though.

Which makes the roster this:

Spoiler

1. Mario
2. Luigi
3. Peach
4. Bowser
5. Wario
6. Donkey Kong
7. King K. Rool
8. Yoshi
9. Link
10. Zelda
11. Ganondorf
12. Pikachu
13. Jigglypuff
14. Mewtwo
15. Samus
16. Ridley
17. Kirby
18. Fox
19. Falco
20. Wolf
21. Captain Falcon
22. Marth
23. Leif
24. Ness
25. Ice Climbers
26. Mr. Game & Watch

Which is the same number of characters as vanilla, just with some clones swapped out. Weirdly, I can't make myself think of Falco as a clone because the differences are small to the average player but are competitively relevant. Assuming clones have to be traded in at a 2-1 ratio, I would scrap Wario and K. Rool from this (I think that math checks out). Not sure what down special Zelda would have without Sheik, so I'll assume she uses the Spell spell from Zelda II.

 

[Jotari]

39 minutes ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

Another Ridley size debate is kind of funny.

So is saying "Sakurai said Ridley was too big" as a reason when Mashed Potatoes later went back on that.

The real objection, of course, isn't that Ridley is too big but that he typically has complete control of his flight. A character who can fly more or less wherever whenever doesn't mesh with how Smash Brothers is typically played, characters just don't mess with the physics that much (even if it would be kind of cool). They of course put him in anyway, and apparently people were okay with it.

***

I would have liked to seen Leif in the game, honestly. I like Roy a lot but it's fun to imagine a world where Thracia instead became one of the most internally popular Fire Emblem games. I'm not sure it would actually be that different from what we have today, with the humor in the situation simply being due to it being different. If he got to actually use the Light Brand and have ranged attacks in Smash, it would have been pretty cool.

***

Aside from making some clones more distinct though, I don't think the Melee roster needs many changes. It's not a bad roster. I might throw in Wolf or Wario or King K. Rool- I'd certain trade Pichu for any of them. I'd be fine scrapping every clone not named Ganondorf for one totally unique character or a light brand wielding Lief. If you wanted to have a Ridley who could fly more or less everywhere (perhaps having to land back down every now and then), totally flipping the regular gameplay on its head, I'll admit...that'd be cool. Honestly though, I don't think any of those additions are completely necessary.

Leif > Ridley > Sheik though.

Which makes the roster this:

  Hide contents

1. Mario
2. Luigi
3. Peach
4. Bowser
5. Wario
6. Donkey Kong
7. King K. Rool
8. Yoshi
9. Link
10. Zelda
11. Ganondorf
12. Pikachu
13. Jigglypuff
14. Mewtwo
15. Samus
16. Ridley
17. Kirby
18. Fox
19. Falco
20. Wolf
21. Captain Falcon
22. Marth
23. Leif
24. Ness
25. Ice Climbers
26. Mr. Game & Watch

Which is the same number of characters as vanilla, just with some clones swapped out. Weirdly, I can't make myself think of Falco as a clone because the differences are small to the average player but are competitively relevant. Assuming clones have to be traded in at a 2-1 ratio, I would scrap Wario and K. Rool from this (I think that math checks out). Not sure what down special Zelda would have without Sheik, so I'll assume she uses the Spell spell from Zelda II.

 

Honestly Falco has absolutely no reason to be in Smash. He's cool and all and I love him and don't want to see him dropped, but he's really not in any way more relevant or important than Slippy or Peppy. He got into Melee purely based on how easy it was to implement another character and just being cooler than the other two Star Fox pilots, but it really should have been Wolf who was the clone. If Wolf got in in Melee instead of Falco then we probably would have seen Krystal in Brawl instead of Wolf. Only then, come SSB4 would anyone be interested in seeing the other Star Fox characters as potential fighters. Falco got lucky getting into Melee and in not getting cut in Brawl managed to establish himself as veteran who couldn't possibly be cut now. Same situation with Sheik really.