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omegaxis1

Why I cannot fully sympathize with Rhea

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I'm sure most that know me is aware that I'm a major fan of Edelgard. That generally means I would oppose Rhea, whom Edelgard opposes. Now that doesn't mean I hate Rhea, as I genuinely do sympathize with the tragedy she suffered. 

However, I want to express that despite how I get that she's been through something horrific, I'm not entirely sympathetic with her. 

Yes, she has suffered incredible pain from being a survivor of a literal genocide, and had to endure her own kin and mother being turned in weapons of war. The last time something like that happened, it was in Yu-Gi-Oh, where it was revealed that the Millennium Items were created by slaughtering an entire village of people.

Spoiler

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Having experienced that, no matter what the reason, even if Nemesis was someone that wanted to just help his people and homeland, what he did is something that cannot ever be forgiven. It is pure evil, and he NEEDED to go down. Nothing would ever justify genocide. And Rhea deserved to seek justice for what happened to her. 

But that's just it. She deserved justice, but what she sought was revenge.

I feel people are TOO easily influenced to mix "justice" and "revenge" and forget that there's a serious difference between the two. 

Ironically, one of Arthur's room quotes is him actually wanting to lecture Corrin about what the difference is:

Quote

“This was great, but next time let's discuss the subtle yet distinct difference between justice and vengeance.

Yes, there IS a difference. But people are so much into the belief that those that made someone else suffer should ALSO suffer the same or worse treatment, or would seek to kill them regardless of how it affects others.

And the biggest difference is what happens when one attains justice and how one is when one attains revenge.

To better help convey my point, I bring about Lyn and Wallace's B support from FE7:

Quote

Lyn: I...must become stronger. And not just for this battle... There is something else I must do.

Wallace: Perhaps, Lady Lyndis... you speak of the bandits that took your parents’ lives?

Lyn: My mother, my father... and the people of Lorca who died... With this sword, I’ll avenge them all one day, I swear it.

Wallace: How saddened the marquess would be if he heard, that a lady of Caelin was plotting revenge...

Lyn: You would have me forget!? Can I forget the blood that was spilled? Can I forget my father!? Never! I cannot!

Wallace: Lady Lyndis...

Lyn: I am sorry, Sir Wallace. But this is something that I cannot forget.

Wallace: Lady Lyndis... Do you hate them—the ones who did this to you?

Lyn: Yes, I hate them. Very much. They took my father and mother from me... I shall never forgive them. As long as they live, I can never move on!

Wallace: ... ...

Notice that at the end, Lyn says that so long as the bandits are alive, she can never move on. So take this with Rhea, who spent decades plotting and preparing to wage war against Nemesis and the Elites, planning on killing them all.

Rhea must have felt that she could never move on unless her family's murderer paid the price, right? 

However, it's at Lyn's A support with Wallace that perfectly demonstrates how distinct this difference between justice and revenge. 

Quote

Wallace: Lady Lyndis.

Lyn: General Wallace...?

Wallace: I had not thought to ever tell this to anyone... But I shall tell you, and only you.

Lyn: What is it?

Wallace: I haven’t told you how I came to Bern...

Lyn: You mean you didn’t wander here by chance?

Wallace: No, not by chance. I came to Bern for a reason. I had a purpose...

Lyn: A purpose?

Wallace: The bandits that used to live in the Taliver Mountains... They are no more. I destroyed the bandits of Taliver.

Lyn: ...Why!? Why did you do such a thing!? The bandits of Taliver were my enemies! They were mine to...

Wallace: ...Lady Lyndis. I killed them—but not for revenge. I want you to be happy... I wanted the single daughter of Lord Hassar and Lady Madelyn... ...to be happy.

Lyn: ... ...

Wallace: Lady Lyndis. If you truly wished revenge upon them, you should be happy. Hatred can be strength. On the plains, you needed that strength to survive. But left too long, hatred can twist and consume you.

Lyn: ... ...

Wallace: The blood of your parents flows in your veins. That you live must bring them no end of joy. But for you to be filled with such hate... Is this what your parents would have wished for?

Lyn: But...But I... ... ...

Wallace: My words now might not reach you, I know that. Still, Lady Lyndis, listen: I pray that your heart will not be clouded. For you have the clear eyes of your mother, and in clarity lies beauty.

This is genuinely important. Lyn here is outraged angered that Wallace destroyed the bandits that she wanted revenge on. She's upset that she couldn't do it. But she's not even happy and hasn't actually moved on yet. She's not even showing signs that she has moved on after learning this. 

Wallace also mentioned that hatred can be useful as a strength cause it allows you to cling to her will to survive. But clinging to that hatred for too long can consume you.

And that's exactly what happens to Rhea.

She was consumed by hatred, consumed by her lust for vengeance. And when she finally killed Nemesis and then hunted down the remaining Elites, killing them one by one, what happened? 

Did Rhea move on? 

Keep in mind that Rhea had CENTURIES worth of peace after the War of Heroes. She had something that many humans don't have: time

Nemesis was killed in the Imperial Year 91, with the war ending in the Year 98, and the game starts off at the Year 1179. That means Rhea has had over a millennium to try and move on. Rhea had so much time to push past her sorrows and grief, and to let go of that hatred. To let go of her suffering and try to find happiness in her life towards the future. But... she didn't. Rhea never moved on. She clung to her sorrow, her grief, and used that as her reason for her actions toward everything. 

You know how people go on and on about how Edelgard could have just "talked" to people or tried to change things peacefully?

How about using that on Rhea? 

Rhea had over an entire millennium to just fix things. She was the archbishop of the Church. She had the power, resources, and most of all, time to address the issues of Fodlan. 

Why couldn't she spend a few decades preaching to the people and telling them that they should not worship Crests to the point of obsession or judge people's worth based on Crests. Sure, maybe people wouldn't listen immediately, but that's the beauty of her longevity. She doesn't NEED to be quick. She can keep pushing and attempting to guide humanity for years and years, and slowly, people WOULD begin to listen and try to put into practice the belief that Crests aren't necessary. And then little by little, the rest of the people would start to follow suit. It's a matter of taking it slow and steady. The possibility exists. 

But when DID she actually start to move on?

When she got captured by Edelgard and imprisoned for five whole years after Edelgard declared war on the Church of Seiros. Five years of being removed from power, lamenting over her failures, did Rhea finally realize how she messed up. 

-

In the end, yeah, Rhea's a tragic character, and I sympathize with her, but only to an extent.

She should have moved on past her grief throughout the years. But she didn't. She clung to them and that worsened things for her and everyone else around her. Her having a redemption only after being imprisoned for five years during a war is too little, too late.

This is why I can't ever support Rhea.

Feel free to disagree with me, but the point of this thread is just my stance on why I can't support her or side with her. 

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The difference between Lyn and Rhea is that Lyn's bandits were totally wiped out thanks to Wallace.  Rhea's Agarthians weren't, and I think she might've suspected it.  Hence why her moving on isn't something I hold against her.

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2 minutes ago, eclipse said:

The difference between Lyn and Rhea is that Lyn's bandits were totally wiped out thanks to Wallace.  Rhea's Agarthians weren't, and I think she might've suspected it.  Hence why her moving on isn't something I hold against her.

At best she suspected that there was someone behind the scenes. But Rhea clearly never indicated much knowledge in regards to them. Even despite the time, she never investigated or tried to learn anything about them. 

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1 minute ago, omegaxis1 said:

At best she suspected that there was someone behind the scenes. But Rhea clearly never indicated much knowledge in regards to them. Even despite the time, she never investigated or tried to learn anything about them. 

I'll be blunt - the game really sucks at telling Rhea's side of the story.  I can use a lot of words to describe Rhea, but "stupid" isn't one of them.

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3 minutes ago, eclipse said:

I'll be blunt - the game really sucks at telling Rhea's side of the story.  I can use a lot of words to describe Rhea, but "stupid" isn't one of them.

I agree that she isn't "stupid," and the Agarthans are good at hiding their tracks.

But I definitely think that she should have moved on. It's been a millennium, and the main source of her trauma was Nemesis, since she always saw him as the biggest trauma inducing being, evidenced by CF with how she treats Byleth as the second Nemesis. Clinging to the memory for so long is never healthy. 

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4 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

I agree that she isn't "stupid," and the Agarthans are good at hiding their tracks.

But I definitely think that she should have moved on. It's been a millennium, and the main source of her trauma was Nemesis, since she always saw him as the biggest trauma inducing being, evidenced by CF with how she treats Byleth as the second Nemesis. Clinging to the memory for so long is never healthy. 

I take it that you've never had a deeply traumatic incident happen to you?

It varies by person.  Some people can get over it relatively quickly.  Others carry with them through their entire lives.  We RL humans have stuff like therapy to help us.  Rhea doesn't.

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5 minutes ago, eclipse said:

I take it that you've never had a deeply traumatic incident happen to you?

It varies by person.  Some people can get over it relatively quickly.  Others carry with them through their entire lives.  We RL humans have stuff like therapy to help us.  Rhea doesn't.

 

Just now, Sentinel07 said:

Simply saying "get over it" is a poor line of reasoning. Mental trauma isn't easy to get over especially with very few people to help you get through it.

I'm sorry, but Rhea had CENTURIES to actually try to move on. No matter how horrific it was, her not letting go of that trauma and trying to move on, despite having literal centuries to do so, is a very poor reason. Yeah, I agree that trauma is not easy to deal with, and it's very hard to move on, and sometimes, you never fully move past it. But Rhea never even TRIED to move on. I mean, the proof of that is how she was desperately trying to revive her mother. 

I simply cannot sympathize with someone that never attempted to move on despite having every chance to try to, and only did so in the end cause a war put her into a situation where she finally realized that she should have moved on.

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23 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

 

I'm sorry, but Rhea had CENTURIES to actually try to move on. No matter how horrific it was, her not letting go of that trauma and trying to move on, despite having literal centuries to do so, is a very poor reason. Yeah, I agree that trauma is not easy to deal with, and it's very hard to move on, and sometimes, you never fully move past it. But Rhea never even TRIED to move on. I mean, the proof of that is how she was desperately trying to revive her mother. 

I simply cannot sympathize with someone that never attempted to move on despite having every chance to try to, and only did so in the end cause a war put her into a situation where she finally realized that she should have moved on.

I have some advice for you.

Get off of the Internet, and start some serious self-reflection.  If you're lucky enough to never have been seriously traumatized, good for you.  But for the sake of those who have. . .try to understand.  There's reasons to dislike Rhea, but this particular reason isn't one of them.  Hell, it's not a good idea to hold that kind of logic to anyone, real or otherwise.

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4 minutes ago, eclipse said:

I have some advice for you.

Get off of the Internet, and start some serious self-reflection.  If you're lucky enough to never have been seriously traumatized, good for you.  But for the sake of those who have. . .try to understand.  There's reasons to dislike Rhea, but this particular reason isn't one of them.  Hell, it's not a good idea to hold that kind of logic to anyone, real or otherwise.

I'm not trying to make light of this. However, this doesn't change my stance. I'm not even saying "get over it" either. I'm simply stating that holding onto that trauma for so long was wrong and it did more harm than good.

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1 minute ago, omegaxis1 said:

I'm not trying to make light of this. However, this doesn't change my stance. I'm not even saying "get over it" either. I'm simply stating that holding onto that trauma for so long was wrong and it did more harm than good.

This isn't a matter of "well let it go".  Because if you want to see how hard it is. . .let go of this argument.

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so what is a reasonable time frame to get over genocide and the murder of most of your immediate family?

this ain't it, chief

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1 minute ago, omegaxis1 said:

I'm not trying to make light of this. However, this doesn't change my stance. I'm not even saying "get over it" either. I'm simply stating that holding onto that trauma for so long was wrong and it did more harm than good.

While I do get your point, to be fair, can you really expect someone to just let it go when the perpetrators of said incident still exist somewhere, potentially able to disrupt the peace on such a grand scale at a moment's notice? Worse even, that you've absolutely no clue who or where they may reside?

On top of that, it's not like it was just her people that they took from her. There is Sothis to consider, which means much more to her than what any other person can reasonably have faith in from possibly having actually seen her when she existed in full. And, as @eclipse pointed out, we don't have a complete picture of Rhea's side of things, thus, making for an incomplete conclusion to have.

But I'm hazy on all the details. 

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If anything, I would say her long life is the reason why she couldn’t let go of her trauma. She spent a millennia knowing that the ones responsible for the genocide of her people and her mother are still around, multiplying and still plotting their deaths. How can you get over a trauma when what caused your trauma is still around, still trying to cause further trauma?

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yeah rhea is definitely a shady character and her actions are justifiable to an extent. in the game byleth is constantly lied to or given half truths and only the full truth comes out of rhea in the silver snow route. I don't know why her and edelgard cannot come to some peaceful diplomatic result but it is true that war is better at making change fast and edelgard is pressumed to have a shortened lifespan like lysithea. Unlike rhea who has lived thousands of years, El does not have the luxury of time so she has to change things drastically. In all other routes but silver snow, rhea doesn't really tell you the whole truth of who you are and how you came to be. That's why I find her charcter so shady by byleth deserves to know the full truth. also in Cf, she completely pulls a dimitri and goes crazy with revenge lol but probably worse than dimitri as she sets a whole city of people on fire. Like how does she expect u to kill ur own student? like shouldn't edelgard get a trial or arrested or something. also why does the church execute criminals. is there no hope for rehab? or prison at least. Also if you play the DLC, she gets even weirder as she keeps ur mothers body in a preserved state. talk about weird. but yeah personally my fav route is blue lions but hate how you have to be an archbishop in that route. like I don't like the church -_-

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The genocide of the Nabateans is still ongoing. The world will not allow Rhea to move on. A bunch of losers underground are the ones trying to recreate old wars and even old warriors in the flesh. Edelgard had every opportunity to see injustice in fighting for the Agarthans. Hell she doesn't even have any loved ones left to protect by doing what they ask. How she can't sympathize with another survivor of familial extermination is baffling. But the game developers just reeeaaally wanted to slip in a join Edelgard route at any cost.

Edited by Glennstavos

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3 minutes ago, Glennstavos said:

The genocide of the Nabateans is still ongoing. The world will not allow Rhea to move on. A bunch of losers underground are the ones trying to recreate old wars and even old warriors in the flesh. Edelgard had every opportunity to see injustice in fighting for the Agarthans. Hell she doesn't even have any loved ones left to protect by doing what they ask. How she can't sympathize with another survivor of familial extermination is baffling. But the game developers just reeeaaally wanted to slip in a join Edelgard route at any cost.

This... no. 

Cause there has been no Nabatean hunting at all. Seteth, Flayn, Indech, Macuil, and the other Saints, all scattered and lived their own life, either in seclusion or living among society. No one even knew Nabateans even existed. 

I'm not going to get into the Edelgard one here, but what you said about her is incorrect. 

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3 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Cause there has been no Nabatean hunting at all. Seteth, Flayn, Indech, Macuil, and the other Saints, all scattered and lived their own life, either in seclusion or living among society. No one even knew Nabateans even existed. 

Because they've been brought to the point of thinking that the only way people will stop trying to kill dragons is if humans believe no such creatures exist. And yet there's still some shadow society working against them. Byleth is working at the monastery for just a few months before the incident in which Flayn is kidnapped. What do you call that? And what would you call the potentially hundreds of similar attempts at murder that could have happened before the events of the game?

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Ok first off justice and revenge are very different depending on culture and the law of where you live. There is no cookie cutter definition on them.

And of course Rhea didn’t move on because of trauma and low self-esteem. No matter what she did in Rhea’s eyes she will never be as good as her mother. That’s way she spends centuries finding a way to bring Sothis back to life. Now this lead to crests being overvalued and all that jazz because Rhea did nothing; watch you can blame her for.

 

Also something to point out she could have killed the 10 elites decencies after the war  or whenever but decided not to for reason. Something that a person with revenge on their mind probably wouldn’t have done.

Ok so I don’t know how it feels to live with trauma. Let alone living with the trauma Rhea has for centuries eating away at your mind year after year. At that point I would just want to die, but that’s me.  Also here’s a tip, when making an argument it’s a good idea to pick the center point of said argument about something you know. I have no experience with trauma and don’t have any mental illness, so me picking that as my center point of an argument is like trying to swim in lava, it’s not going to work.  Saying just get over your trauma is super weak. “Oh, your brother committed suicide? Your get over in in a few years you will be fine.” See how unrealistic that sounds?

By the way you talk about how Rhea should get over her trauma, but you never said how she could have.


Now I’m not going to be like eclipse and tell you to rethink your whole damn life. I just think you have a leak of experience. Do your research! There’s a reason you learn how to do an argument in research class.

Hate to tell you but Edelgard loses in her route to. To think the importance of crest will just go away is poor logic. Last time I checked crest give fucking super powers and the ability to use super broken weapons. Edelgrad rule will last until she dies then everything begins anew.

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2 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

Rhea had over an entire millennium to just fix things. She was the archbishop of the Church. She had the power, resources, and most of all, time to address the issues of Fodlan. 

Why couldn't she spend a few decades preaching to the people and telling them that they should not worship Crests to the point of obsession or judge people's worth based on Crests. Sure, maybe people wouldn't listen immediately, but that's the beauty of her longevity. She doesn't NEED to be quick. She can keep pushing and attempting to guide humanity for years and years, and slowly, people WOULD begin to listen and try to put into practice the belief that Crests aren't necessary. And then little by little, the rest of the people would start to follow suit. It's a matter of taking it slow and steady. The possibility exists.

As other comments have pointed out, we don't know nearly as much as we'd like to about Rhea or her circumstances. Even so, I wonder if it's right to assume that the above 'failures' on her part really are unjustifiable failures. She is a Nabatean, and has always been a Nabatean (and thus a Crest-bearer by right). Crest-bearing humans, on the one hand, are perpetual evidence of the genocide the Nabateans suffered, but also one of the few remaining links to her people. Human obsession over Crests started even before Nemesis and the Agarthans - Sothis' healing powers were presumably born from and magnified by the Crest of Flames, and humans are given to worshipping things and people that bring them benefits, and ascribing superhuman causes to them. There are plenty of examples of that in the real world. So when Rhea is left behind to deal with the emptiness of finishing the conflict that claimed the lives of almost everyone she could call a friend (and most of the living ones stop hanging out with her anyway), and still pledges herself to helping lead humankind despite what humans had done to her, on a scale grander than Fodlan had seen previously, organising around Crests would definitely have seemed sensible. More than anything, the idea that Crests were blessings from the Goddess is technically true, though an extremely watered-down version of the truth. Even if she is then to notice the sociological problems that this causes (and we have no idea when this happened), correcting them would also involve devaluing the principles of the Church, and the blood of her people. She can want good things for humanity without that being her number one priority, especially as someone who isn't human by nature - it makes her flawed, but not irredeemable, and certainly understandable. I doubt many people could devote an immortal life to, say, running a society of violent chimpanzees, while always being able to make decisions that will positively impact chimpanzees not only in the moment but centuries down the line.

As for the Church of Seiros, they interfere in the human affairs of nations when events impact the Church's own power or control, whether that be through attacks on religion or through political actions like the War of the Eagle and the Lion. It's a political machine that moves to make itself stronger, like every political machine. It also does things that are not in the best interests of humanity the species (like hampering medical development to preserve the importance of white magic) for this aim. All that shows, however is that Rhea believes (rightly or wrongly) that a world with her religion in charge is better for humanity than any other. The reaction of humans when Nabateans gave their powers freely and without bias (genocide, the Relics etc.) is the only precedent she has for other types of human society with Crests in them, so her lack of imagination is forgivable.

Finally, her long life more than anything provides evidence that humans don't get along, and don't seem to want to. From her perspective, it's the humans who are hurting each other, rather than the existence of Crests. They are consistently violent, they steal and lie and cheat even though she preaches a life of compassion and healing. Sociological issues explain a lot of those things, but she has no reason to believe that such cruelty isn't a part of human nature. The Nabateans (as far as we know) were never driven to the same impulses despite their ridiculous level of power relative to individual humans. And so even though Rhea devotes her long life to looking after the humans her mother loved, 1000 years of human pettiness, of people refusing to do what she thinks is best for humanity, of failing to learn from historical mistakes, of letting her down, is a lot to take. She has far more on her mind than pretty much every other character in the game, so it's not surprising that she snaps on two of her routes. And while Fhirdiad is awful, it is clearly a magnified case of lashing out, combined with her war strategy. it isn't surprising that her anger is directed at humanity.

I don't believe I've been ridiculously charitable to her character by writing the above, and I also think that humanity would be justified in wanting to seize the reins of power from her, regardless of whether Rhea has good intentions or not. Does she always do the right thing, or make the best decision? No. Does she commit atrocities? Yes. But is she unjustifiable? No, and it's actually her long life that is one of the big reasons why.

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Speaking as someone who actually has a family past with genocide and researches it for a major yeah... I have to agree. Part of why I have trouble feeling sympathy for Rhea is because of her past. It's not a pass for her actions. And it gets worse when you consider that she's had time to change things and either did nothing (i.e. overlooking corrupt nobility), or actively making it worse (allowing the Agarthans to help create the Kingdom). She is a victim, but her actions are not remotely justifiable considering she has power and access that literally no one else does in Fodlan. When you consider that she helps recreate the same atrocities that created her (i.e. the fact she lets the true parties behind Duscur slip by and allows the Kingdom to slaughter innocent people), my ability to sympathize with her is precious minimal. 

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26 minutes ago, Glennstavos said:

Because they've been brought to the point of thinking that the only way people will stop trying to kill dragons is if humans believe no such creatures exist. And yet there's still some shadow society working against them. Byleth is working at the monastery for just a few months before the incident in which Flayn is kidnapped. What do you call that? And what would you call the potentially hundreds of similar attempts at murder that could have happened before the events of the game?

The Agarthans happen to reemerge during the game, but Seteth and Flayn have lived in the monastery for 16 years and nothing happened. And Yuri and Balthus both encountered someone that clearly seems to indicate to being a Nabatean as well. 

What "hundreds of similar attempts at murder" are you talking about? Is that a headcanon? 

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4 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

The Agarthans happen to reemerge during the game, but Seteth and Flayn have lived in the monastery for 16 years and nothing happened. And Yuri and Balthus both encountered someone that clearly seems to indicate to being a Nabatean as well. 

What "hundreds of similar attempts at murder" are you talking about? Is that a headcanon? 

Seteth's immediate plan after getting Flayn back is to return to hiding. Similarly, when you confront Rhea with what you know about "those who slither in the dark", the only thing they find confusing is that bizarre name you're using. These incidents are not the first time, and Seteth has to beg Rhea to let the students help this time if it means ending the threat (and the war) at the source.

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6 minutes ago, Glennstavos said:

Seteth's immediate plan after getting Flayn back is to return to hiding. Similarly, when you confront Rhea with what you know about "those who slither in the dark", the only thing they find confusing is that bizarre name you're using. These incidents are not the first time, and Seteth has to beg Rhea to let the students help this time if it means ending the threat (and the war) at the source.

I am pretty sure that it was stated that Flayn's been ASLEEP the entire time from expending her power from the War of Heroes, and only woke up recently, being when she and Seteth arrived in Garreg Mach. Hence why she indicates how it's been a LONG time since she's done X or Y things. 

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The Agarthans are Rhea's mortal enemies for a good reason and I would not be dumb enough to tell her to get over it.

But, like, maybe she shouldn't be the Pope, either.

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