Why I cannot fully sympathize with Rhea

[Darkmoon6789]

2 minutes ago, Jotari said:

To be fair I don't think it does a great job of telling Edelgard's side of the story either. Given all the injustices she wants to combat are largely left out of the spot light in favor of focusing on Hogwarts.

I definitely agree that they could focus more on it as many people apparently don't understand the severity of the situation. One experience I had when playing the game is that my support for him actually increased when playing the other routs thanks to exposure to how other characters got screwed over by the crest system. But you might not know this from Crimson Flower alone. 

The problems of the current system are somewhat obscure in the way they are delivered, but nonetheless the truth. But I will also say that I disapproved of many of the church's methods from the very beginning. I never fully trusted them after Lonato. 

I have said this before, but Edelgard is actually more lenient towards Rhea than she ever is towards her. Just listening to the aftermatch of the Flame Emperor reveal on both routes, one of them clearly comes across as being of a more sound mind. Granted, the dialogue immediately after choosing to side with Rhea is literally the part she looks the worst in the entire game with the exception of the burning of the kingdom capital.

"To flee is futile, wicked girl, the church of Seiros will raise their entire army against you until you have been captured and punished. You have defiled the holy tomb and insulted your brethren, his crimes will never be erased, even if you will burn in the eternal fire and spill all your blood into the goddess's soil"

I don't actually care about her not getting over her trauma at all. This is statement is so much against my principles, that if I did choose this side on my first playthrough it would have left such a bad impression that I would have quit the game and chosen Edelgard. (I can never get behind arguing that eternal punishment is just, in my mind, there is no act more evil)

I understand Rhea is being emotional due to chock. But it is a very extreme reaction, it just looks bad next to Edelgard, saying that she would be satisfied with Rhea just stepping down and staying out of power. Rhea clearly would never just imprison Edelgard.

Rhea does have sympathetic scenes as well, but Jesus Christ did the scenes surrounding the Flame Emperor reveal taint my opinion of her.

[Jotari]

1 minute ago, omegaxis1 said:

... You realize that the entire point of the nobility system is because of the Church, where the nobility system is backed by the religion itself. The religion that worships Crests as gifts of the goddess. 

You know, like how IRL where kings and such claimed to descendants of gods. 

Not to mention Edelgard wants to free humanity from the influence of the Church and the control from dragons, who has been ruling over humanity in secret for a millennium. 

Yes, but I don't see how that relates to my point. My point is that we don't see many nobles kicking puppies and eating babies to really show how corrupt the nobility system is. For the most part all we see is a bunch of noble teenagers at a boarding school enjoying choir practice and cooking food. Almost all the issues caused in Part 1 are from an external group to the society manipulating things. The problems of corrupt nobles is largely left to supports and flavor text referring to characters we never even see.

[Darkmoon6789]

16 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Yes, but I don't see how that relates to my point. My point is that we don't see many nobles kicking puppies and eating babies to really show how corrupt the nobility system is. For the most part all we see is a bunch of noble teenagers at a boarding school enjoying choir practice and cooking food. Almost all the issues caused in Part 1 are from an external group to the society manipulating things. The problems of corrupt nobles is largely left to supports and flavor text referring to characters we never even see.

I think there is a reason most supporters of Edelgard are the type of player who read all the books in the library and really pays attention to the politics of Fodlan. It is not but clearly communicated in the main story, but becomes very clear. Once you read up on the background. Though to be fair, it feels like the game itself is trying to trick you into believing Edelgard is evil, at least if you don't play Crimson Flower. The truth only becoming apparent once you have gathered more information. 

They may be offscreen. Most of the time, but it seems like the majority of the previous generation of nobles that are not the students at the monastery are kind of a-holes. Especially the parents of the Black Eagle students with a few exceptions. Horrible nobles I can mention on the top of my head are Duke Aegir, Bernadetta's father, Mercedes stepfather, who was going to force her to marry him, which Jeritza killed. Gloucester, Acheron, and of course Arundel (if he counts). There are probably more, but I don't remember if the likes of Marianne's father was truly malevolent or not. There is also the father of Sylvain, what they did to Miklan is bullcrap and I can honestly understand his perspective.

And almost none of these people ever appear on screen

Edit: I guess you can also say that the game is trying to trick you into believing Rhea is evil. There is certain amount of misdirection, I think the truth of the matter is that neither Rhea or Edelgard is truly evil. Though Rhea did screw up pretty badly with the current system and she's just horrible at defusing the situation to avoid a rebellion.

I also forgot the guy that was trying to force Ingrid into an arranged marriage

Edited May 4, 2020 by Darkmoon6789

[omegaxis1]

3 minutes ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

I think there is a reason most supporters of Edelgard are the type of player who read all the books in the library and really pays attention to the politics of Fodlan. It is not but clearly communicated in the main story, but becomes very clear. Once you read up on the background. Though to be fair, it feels like the game itself is trying to trick you into believing Edelgard is evil, at least if you don't play Crimson Flower. The truth only becoming apparent once you have gathered more information. 

They may be offscreen. Most of the time, but it seems like the majority of the previous generation of nobles that are not the students at the monastery are kind of a-holes. Especially the parents of the Black Eagle students with a few exceptions. Horrible nobles I can mention on the top of my head are Duke Aegir, Bernadetta's father, Mercedes stepfather, who was going to force her to marry him, which Jeritza killed. Gloucester, Acheron, and of course Arundel (if he counts). There are probably more, but I don't remember if the likes of Marianne's father was truly malevolent or not. There is also the father of Sylvain, what they did to Miklan is bullcrap and I can honestly understand his perspective.

And almost none of these people ever appear on screen

And the devs stated that they never made characters like Holst and such on screen to express that the world is very large or such. And you won't meet every important person. 

 

15 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Yes, but I don't see how that relates to my point. My point is that we don't see many nobles kicking puppies and eating babies to really show how corrupt the nobility system is. For the most part all we see is a bunch of noble teenagers at a boarding school enjoying choir practice and cooking food. Almost all the issues caused in Part 1 are from an external group to the society manipulating things. The problems of corrupt nobles is largely left to supports and flavor text referring to characters we never even see.

As @Darkmoon6789 said, that's the trick. You think that the game doesn't show you that things are bad, but that's how you get tricked into thinking that things are fine and everything is peaceful. It's how you are led to buy into the false peace that is there, where you don't realize how messed up society is because Fodlan itself doesn't realize how messed up it is. It's why you, as the ignorant player, has to actually look into the problems, speak to others, learn the history of things. 

In other words, you have do your research. 

I mean, Edelgard didn't know how messed up society was until she was tortured and experimented on alongside her siblings. You don't realize there's something wrong unless you're LOOKING for it. 

[eclipse]

2 hours ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

This game is all about trauma and how people handle it. It is something that unites Rhea, Dimitri and Edelgard. May all handle it differently, but are all greatly affected by what happened to them. 

I ultimately think that not moving on is unhealthy, I don't necessarily blame for it, but Rhea's inability to let go as driven her closer and closer to the edge of madness as the years gone by. I sympathise with her missing mother, but I also don't think her obsession with bringing her back is healthy, especially not when she's basically resorting to necromancy. I do actually feel sorry for Rhea, but ultimately what has to be done must be done. Even Edelgard expressed that she would prefer if Rhea just gave up and stepped down from power, that is actually the primary issue here. Rhea's unstable mental state is a danger to others because of her position.

However harsh it might sound, Edelgard is ultimately right in what she tells Byleth after Jeralt's death. It is not healthy to obsess with loss and we do need to find the will to move on and live on like usual, for the sake of our own well-being. 

I guess it is also uncertain if Edelgard has truly moved on from her trauma, it is more like she tends to channel it into her dedication to change the world, which does fit her message of turning loss into something productive. But it can also give her tunnel vision at times as it can make her overly focused on her goals. 

I can actually fully sympathise with both Edelgard and Rhea. Even if in a situation where I had to choose one of them. I would pick Edelgard. I think that Rhea needs lots of help. At least I get the impression that Edelgard is more likely to spare Rhea than vice versa. Given their track record. 

I understand it is difficult, but Rhea just need to let go of the past. 

I think you need to read the first few posts in the topic, because they apply to you too.

51 minutes ago, Jotari said:

To be fair I don't think it does a great job of telling Edelgard's side of the story either. Given all the injustices she wants to combat are largely left out of the spot light in favor of focusing on Hogwarts.

To be fair, it would be really hard to show the social nuances given that Byleth isn't really allowed outside of the monastery walls.  It would've been really cool if they were, though.

[Darkmoon6789]

19 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

And the devs stated that they never made characters like Holst and such on screen to express that the world is very large or such. And you won't meet every important person. 

 

As @Darkmoon6789 said, that's the trick. You think that the game doesn't show you that things are bad, but that's how you get tricked into thinking that things are fine and everything is peaceful. It's how you are led to buy into the false peace that is there, where you don't realize how messed up society is because Fodlan itself doesn't realize how messed up it is. It's why you, as the ignorant player, has to actually look into the problems, speak to others, learn the history of things. 

In other words, you have do your research. 

I mean, Edelgard didn't know how messed up society was until she was tortured and experimented on alongside her siblings. You don't realize there's something wrong unless you're LOOKING for it. 

It is also a fact that most of the people we follow in the game are rather privileged and wouldn't really be exposed to or aware of the quality of life of regular people (with the exception of a few, like Dorothea and Ashe, who are still rather fortunate in comparison to most commoners.) It is like how people who have it good and associate only with other people or their economic class might be unaware of what life is like being poor or how bad things could be for the lowest in society. 

If Edelgard wasn't screwed over so badly by other people. She likely never would have realised how messed up the system truly was, as she would be part of this people benefiting from it. Her imprisonment was a taste at suffering, but led her to understand how bad life could truly be in Rhea's system. I think that is what she really means when she says that Dimitri couldn't possibly understand the plight of the commoners being highborn.

4 minutes ago, eclipse said:

I think you need to read the first few posts in the topic, because they apply to you too.

To be fair, it would be really hard to show the social nuances given that Byleth isn't really allowed outside of the monastery walls.  It would've been really cool if they were, though.

I thought I did make it clear that I do have sympathy for Rhea and what she's going through. Her, Dimitri and Edelgard are similar in that regard, people losing their family to tragedy and how they respond to said trauma. They are my three favourite characters in the game from a character development standpoint as a result. I assume that is what you meant?

I will make it clear that I am not being dismissive of trauma in any way. I don't even know what how living for 1000 years would affect your mental state. Even without dealing with something like that. 

You know what other character I am also able to sympathise with? Azula from Avatar the Last Airbender. Why? Well, I have also gone through a mental breakdown and I can say one thing, it is worse than anyone who hasn't gone through such a thing could ever imagine. Mental illness are usually quite underestimated by those who doesn't suffer from it. However cruel can be, she is ultimately a product of her abusive upbringing and what appears to be schizophrenia. So I can't feel anything other than pity for her. Also bear in mind that I have stated that I kind of feel sorry for Kronya, it takes quite a lot for me to withdraw empathy completely.

That Rhea somehow managed to make me feel sorry for her and wish things could be different. Despite representing the type of ideology I hate the most in the entire world, says something of the quality of writing this game has.

Dimitri takes pleasure in slaughtering and torturing his enemies, yet he still comes across as sympathetic.

Edelgard starts a war and she is still sympathetic. 

Nearly everyone in this game is sympathetic in my eyes. At least all the students are plus the church personnel. It is part of its charm and the tragedy.

Still, it might be hard to accept, but Edelgard's advice regarding grief I do actually think is helpful. Much better than empty encouragement and empty platitudes

[Jotari]

41 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

And the devs stated that they never made characters like Holst and such on screen to express that the world is very large or such. And you won't meet every important person. 

 

As @Darkmoon6789 said, that's the trick. You think that the game doesn't show you that things are bad, but that's how you get tricked into thinking that things are fine and everything is peaceful. It's how you are led to buy into the false peace that is there, where you don't realize how messed up society is because Fodlan itself doesn't realize how messed up it is. It's why you, as the ignorant player, has to actually look into the problems, speak to others, learn the history of things. 

In other words, you have do your research. 

I mean, Edelgard didn't know how messed up society was until she was tortured and experimented on alongside her siblings. You don't realize there's something wrong unless you're LOOKING for it. 

But that's the problem. There's a difference between show and tell and subtly crafting something. Three Houses just does the former. We're just related some bad things while we're shown everything being fine. What we should be shown is everything appearing to be fine but not actually be. Compare it to Final Fantasy X which is also about overthrowing a thousand year old continent spanning manipulative religion. In that we see how the religion has burrowed it's way into the minds of every single character in the world. The idea of not following the rules is basically unthinkable to the average citizen. Someone who is completely out of context is required for them break free from the social brainwashing. Things don't need to be in your face blatant, but they also shouldn't require reading a supplementary novel.

25 minutes ago, eclipse said:

I think you need to read the first few posts in the topic, because they apply to you too.

To be fair, it would be really hard to show the social nuances given that Byleth isn't really allowed outside of the monastery walls.  It would've been really cool if they were, though.

Well the social ills in Part 1 being natural more than Agarthan originated would have helped. You can show the world's bad with rebellions and stuff, but the message is kind of undermined when the lizard people are behind it all.

Edited May 4, 2020 by Jotari

[eclipse]

3 minutes ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

I thought I did make it clear that I do have sympathy for Rhea and what she's going through. Her, Dimitri and Edelgard are similar in that regard, people losing their family to tragedy and how they respond to said trauma. They are my three favourite characters in the game from a character development standpoint as a result. I assume that is what you meant?

I will make it clear that I am not being dismissive of trauma in any way. I don't even know what how living for 1000 years would affect your mental state. Even without dealing with something like that. 

You know what other character I am also able to sympathise with? Azula from Avatar the Last Airbender. Why? Well, I have also gone through a mental breakdown and I can say one thing, it is worse than anyone who hasn't gone through such a thing could ever imagine. Mental illness are usually quite underestimated by those who doesn't suffer from it. However cruel can be, she is ultimately a product of her abusive upbringing and what appears to be schizophrenia. So I can't feel anything other than pity for her. Also bear in mind that I have stated that I kind of feel sorry for Kronya, it takes quite a lot for me to withdraw empathy completely.

That Rhea somehow managed to make me feel sorry for her and wish things could be different. Despite representing the type of ideology I hate the most in the entire world, says something of the quality of writing this game has.

Dimitri takes pleasure in slaughtering and torturing his enemies, yet he still comes across as sympathetic.

Edelgard starts a war and she is still sympathetic. 

Nearly everyone in this game is sympathetic in my eyes. At least all the students are plus the church personnel. It is part of its charm and the tragedy.

Still, it might be hard to accept, but Edelgard's advice regarding grief I do actually think is helpful. Much better than empty encouragement and empty platitudes

If your conclusion is "yeah she should just let go of it", then you missed the point.  Letting go is really hard.  It's definitely one of Rhea's character flaws.

2 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Well the social ills in Part 1 being natural more than Agarthan originated would have helped. You can show the world's bad with rebellions and stuff, but the message is kind of undermined when the lizard people are behind it all.

That's what you meant.  You're absolutely right.

If the underground dubstep scene wasn't a part of this, I think it would've made a much stronger narrative overall.  Definitely would've put more on Rhea's shoulders, at least!

[Darkmoon6789]

3 minutes ago, Jotari said:

But that's the problem. There's a difference between show and tell and subtly crafting something. Three Houses just does the former. We're just related some bad things while we're shown everything being fine. What we should be shown is everything appearing to be fine but not actually be. Compare it to Final Fantasy X which is also about overthrowing a thousand year old continent spanning manipulative religion. In that we see how the religion has burrowed it's way into the minds of every single character in the world. The idea of not following the rules is basically unthinkable to the average citizen. Someone who is completely out of context is required for them break free from the social brainwashing. Things don't need to be in your face blatant, but they also shouldn't require reading a supplementary novel.

Well the social ills in Part 1 being natural more than Agarthan originated would have helped. You can show the world's bad with rebellions and stuff, but the message is kind of undermined when the lizard people are behind it all.

Lonato probably would have rebelled either way, 

His reasons for doing so had nothing to do with the Agarthans. There are probably others who share his sentiment. But I wish there were more missions like that whether churches send you to suppress rebellions. Who you discover have sympathetic motives. 

But it makes me wonder if things were communicated more clearly, would the hatred Edelgard often receive be greatly reduced? I would think so, as it would be more clear what she is fighting against. But whenever it is subtle or blatant, the corruption in the system is there. But I guess it is possible to argue how much of it is really Rhea's fault. She is more negligent than anything. If I decide to ignore how quick she is to order executions. And she is negligent because she's too busy trying to revive her mother rather than actually running the continent. 

 

1 minute ago, eclipse said:

If your conclusion is "yeah she should just let go of it", then you missed the point.  Letting go is really hard.  It's definitely one of Rhea's character flaws.

That's what you meant.  You're absolutely right.

If the underground dubstep scene wasn't a part of this, I think it would've made a much stronger narrative overall.  Definitely would've put more on Rhea's shoulders, at least!

I never said it was remotely possible. It is not something she can get over any more than Edelgard can get over the death of her siblings in a gruesome fashion as well as being imprisoned and tortured for however long that was (suspect six years, but I could be wrong).

Ultimately Edelgard isn't over her trauma any more than Rhea, her entire reasoning is built upon it. I do think she's accurate in this reasoning, but her hatred of crests and the nobility do stem from the trauma. And it is ultimately what compels her to declare war. Dedicating her life to what she thinks is a noble purpose is the only way she can cope. And she is likely to suffer even more trauma due to the burden the war put on her conscience. 

I don't read Edelgard's advice to Byleth as "get over it". I read it as, "there is no point moping in your room all day, channel your grief into something productive, like hunting down your father's killer. It should give you plenty of motivation for that." 

It is ultimately the same tactic Edelgard herself is using to deal with her trauma. As stated, I don't think Edelgard is over it either and it is unlikely she will ever be. I don't think she intends to be mean, I think she is genuinely trying to help the best way she knows how because she cares for Byleth and she feels guilty for being partwise responsible in their father's death.

But I think I remember you said yourself that despite Rhea's mental state being understandable, he probably shouldn't be in power. Just as however much I like Azula, I don't think she should be Firelord as long as she suffers from paranoid schizophrenia to that extent. It is to the point she is pretty much not responsible for her own actions anymore. So I would still justify removing them from power because their mental state in combination with that power and influence is a threat to other people.

[Crysta]

I think religious crusading/discrimination/indoctrination occurs naturally in Fodlan without the moleman interference, but it's mostly limited to asshole Church NPCs or enemies you can easily forget. And people seem to.

That said, the insinuations that the Church is not wholly okay are pretty prevalent throughout White Clouds. I don't think you need Rhea leading the actual Crusades to be frequently side-eyeing her suspiciously, or make the conclusion that the frequently cited world religion has a significant sway over ingrained belief systems of Fodlan's inhabitants. Not the mole people who lurk in the shadows.

[Darkmoon6789]

16 minutes ago, Crysta said:

I think religious crusading/discrimination/indoctrination occurs naturally in Fodlan without the moleman interference, but it's mostly limited to asshole Church NPCs or enemies you can easily forget. And people seem to.

That said, the insinuations that the Church is not wholly okay are pretty prevalent throughout White Clouds. I don't think you need Rhea leading the actual Crusades to be frequently side-eyeing her suspiciously, or make the conclusion that the frequently cited world religion has a significant sway over ingrained belief systems of Fodlan's inhabitants. Not the mole people who lurk in the shadows.

Not every problem in Fodlan is the fault of the Agarthans, but they are responsible for the war, and many other wars in the past. As well as the blood reconstruction surgery on at least two known individuals

[Crysta]

Sure, but I wouldn't blame prevailing society ills on them.

They're parasitic in nature.

[Darkmoon6789]

3 minutes ago, Crysta said:

Sure, but I wouldn't blame prevailing society ills on them.

They're parasitic in nature.

Now what I think about it, change that to at least 12 non-individuals as I forgot about Edelgard's 10 siblings (forgive me Edelgard). I think Lysithea also had siblings

But you are completely right, they exploit the issues with the system, but we didn't create all of them.

I wonder if Edelgard remember the faces and names of all her siblings. She has memory problems, but they are very important to her

[haarhaarhaar]

7 hours ago, eclipse said:

The perception of time is something that's studied in humans.  It's an attempt to explain why time feels like it's moving slowly as a kid, but as an adult, where did the last five years go?

I also forgot the other possibility, that Rhea knocked herself out for an indeterminate amount of time after transforming.  If she took a Byleth-sized nap of five years, then she would've been imprisoned for something like four months (give or take).  Assuming that the time thing I mentioned earlier is true, then it could very well be the equivalent of time-out for her.

I'm also positive that the difference in time perception between us mortals and a being that lives for millennia isn't the point of the thread.  However, the general logic behind her actions is something that we the audience can understand, so perhaps manakete thinking isn't completely out of left field.  It's interesting to think about, though!

Yeah I'm not especially serious about following up this line of thought, but it ought to give us a little perspective when judging Rhea to remember being not human might qualitatively alter her experiences of everything (and thus give a bit of room to be less damning). Like you say, it's entirely possible it swings the other way and 5 years is just not much to Rhea.

3 hours ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

Counting each crest in existence, there has to be at least 19 (Seiros, the four Saints, the Dragons killed to have their power stolen by the 10 elites, the four apostles.) Still, 19, isn't all that many either. It is not even comparable to the number of casualties be inflicted on the Agarthans. The only thing I will ever say in defence of the Agarthans is that they are also the victims of genocide

For clarity, there are 22 Crests in the game, and the only one which has entirely unknown provenance is Ernest's - but there are six Nabatean survivors in the game (assuming Yuri got his blood straight from Aubin), and the other Apostles could have been (but weren't necessarily) Nabateans - depending on when they attempted to resurrect Sothis, this could mean they also survived the war. In other words, 12 Nabateans including Sothis were confirmably killed in the war against Nemesis. I'm not sure whether this number accurately represents the loss of Nabatean life in the war, but even if it does, it's not helpful to say well, only 12 people died, the suffering of the Nabatean species is incomparable to humanity's. Because 12 lives is a significant loss in its own right, and 12/22 is still more than half of the Nabatean race, including their progenitor god/leader. If a particularly destructive bacterium led an army of bacteria to kill 3.5 billion humans, we wouldn't say "oh, look, so many more bacteria died in this war and under the feet of humans than humans did, they are defensible". The Agarthans have their suffering, the Nabateans have theirs - neither excuses or justifies the other.

4 hours ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

It would make sense for survivors of the almost extinct species, rather close to one another, even if we are into directly related. It could still regard one another as family as they are one of very few of their kind

This is an interesting point, and there are a couple of different ways you could go. Either, propagation of the species notwithstanding, none of the living Nabateans wanted to procreate with each other. Or, they can't procreate with each other by normal means (Sothis was some kind of exception, hence her exalted progenitor status, and Flayn's mother I guess would have to be human in this headcanon. Maybe there is instead some missing condition, like the Nabatean equivalent of a midwife, that makes birth exceptionally unreasonable?). But why don't they procreate with humans? I don't believe it's confirmed what race Flayn's mother is, or if Seiros actually gave birth to Wilhelm's child. But Wilhelm's child is human, and Flayn is not. Does that mean it's less likely that Seiros, and not some human woman, gave birth to Wilhelm's children? Or is there some weird biological rule about what combination of cross-species procreation leads to what? Basically, though, we again have no proof one way or another to show that the Nabateans did or didn't try to procreate, just that for whatever reason there aren't more of them. Or maybe they did, and they're all just living happily in a village of dragons somewhere far, far away.

28 minutes ago, Crysta said:

I think religious crusading/discrimination/indoctrination occurs naturally in Fodlan without the moleman interference, but it's mostly limited to asshole Church NPCs or enemies you can easily forget. And people seem to.

That said, the insinuations that the Church is not wholly okay are pretty prevalent throughout White Clouds. I don't think you need Rhea leading the actual Crusades to be frequently side-eyeing her suspiciously, or make the conclusion that the frequently cited world religion has a significant sway over ingrained belief systems of Fodlan's inhabitants. Not the mole people who lurk in the shadows.

This just seems true. Kostas and Miklan were banditing about irrespective of TWSITD, the Seteth/Flayn paralogue is fighting a weird offshoot of the church (I might be wrong in thinking they aren't TWSITD though), and let's not forget church treatment of Dedue - in Part I the number of monks who badmouth him is ridiculous, and I've never played his route. Obviously the genocide in Duscur is on TWSITD's head, but the subsequent discrimination? That's all church. Similarly, while Lonato specifically rising up against the church (which is TWSITD behind the scenes, by the way) is surprising to some, Rhea's clearly dealt with uprisings before, and Catherine has killed dissenters on her behalf before. The Church are dodgy, with or without TWSITD's help.

Edited May 4, 2020 by haarhaarhaar

[Crysta]

The Slitherers are 100% taking advantage of the schism between the Central Church and it's offshoots, and I have no doubt that how the Church operates as a whole actually makes it insanely easy for them to do so lol

[Darkmoon6789]

21 minutes ago, haarhaarhaar said:

Yeah I'm not especially serious about following up this line of thought, but it ought to give us a little perspective when judging Rhea to remember being not human might qualitatively alter her experiences of everything (and thus give a bit of room to be less damning). Like you say, it's entirely possible it swings the other way and 5 years is just not much to Rhea.

For clarity, there are 22 Crests in the game, and the only one which has entirely unknown provenance is Ernest's - but there are six Nabatean survivors in the game (assuming Yuri got his blood straight from Aubin), and the other Apostles could have been (but weren't necessarily) Nabateans - depending on when they attempted to resurrect Sothis, this could mean they also survived the war. In other words, 12 Nabateans including Sothis were confirmably killed in the war against Nemesis. I'm not sure whether this number accurately represents the loss of Nabatean life in the war, but even if it does, it's not helpful to say well, only 12 people died, the suffering of the Nabatean species is incomparable to humanity's. Because 12 lives is a significant loss in its own right, and 12/22 is still more than half of the Nabatean race, including their progenitor god/leader. If a particularly destructive bacterium led an army of bacteria to kill 3.5 billion humans, we wouldn't say "oh, look, so many more bacteria died in this war and under the feet of humans than humans did, they are defensible". The Agarthans have their suffering, the Nabateans have theirs - neither excuses or justifies the other.

This is an interesting point, and there are a couple of different ways you could go. Either, propagation of the species notwithstanding, none of the living Nabateans wanted to procreate with each other. Or, they can't procreate with each other by normal means (Sothis was some kind of exception, hence her exalted progenitor status, and Flayn's mother I guess would have to be human in this headcanon. Maybe there is instead some missing condition, like the Nabatean equivalent of a midwife, that makes birth exceptionally unreasonable?). But why don't they procreate with humans? I don't believe it's confirmed what race Flayn's mother is, or if Seiros actually gave birth to Wilhelm's child. But Wilhelm's child is human, and Flayn is not. Does that mean it's less likely that Seiros, and not some human woman, gave birth to Wilhelm's children? Or is there some weird biological rule about what combination of cross-species procreation leads to what? Basically, though, we again have no proof one way or another to show that the Nabateans did or didn't try to procreate, just that for whatever reason there aren't more of them. Or maybe they did, and they're all just living happily in a village of dragons somewhere far, far away.

This just seems true. Kostas and Miklan were banditing about irrespective of TWSITD, the Seteth/Flayn paralogue is fighting a weird offshoot of the church (I might be wrong in thinking they aren't TWSITD though), and let's not forget church treatment of Dedue - in Part I the number of monks who badmouth him is ridiculous, and I've never played his route. Obviously the genocide in Duscur is on TWSITD's head, but the subsequent discrimination? That's all church. Similarly, while Lonato specifically rising up against the church (which is TWSITD behind the scenes, by the way) is surprising to some, Rhea's clearly dealt with uprisings before, and Catherine has killed dissenters on her behalf before. The Church are dodgy, with or without TWSITD's help.

I think the enemy is your fighting in white clouds mostly consist of what is basically a group of factions with a very loose connection with a common enemy, and different goals. The three primary ones being those slither in dark, the Flame Emperor's troops and the Western Church. Despite all wanting to bring down the central church.  

[haarhaarhaar]

1 minute ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

I think the enemy is your fighting in white clouds mostly consist of what is basically a group of factions with a very loose connection with a common enemy, and different goals. The three primary ones being those slither in dark, the Flame Emperor's troops and the Western Church. Despite all wanting to bring down the central church

Yep I agree, but those factions didn't exist in vacuums until TWSITD directed them to their aims. Kostas was a bandit before the Flame Emperor showed up, Miklan has nothing to do with TWSITD, and neither do some of the other paralogue enemies like bandits in Felix's paralogue, Acheron power-grubbing, Gloucester's forces in Ignatz's paralogue, and potentially the church enemies in Seteth's. The White Clouds story is tied together ultimately by multiple groups aiming to take down the Church, but there are plenty of clues and information to tell us the Church wasn't so hot either.

[Blackstarskywalker]

6 hours ago, Jotari said:

Edelgard's major issues lie with hereditary inheritance. She doesn't simply want to destroy what she sees as an evil Church, she want's to up end the entirety of society and is doing so in the name of a working class we see very little of (because we spend most of our time at a monastery for rich people). If Edelgard's hat was just hatred of figure that's extreme on opposition then that'd be enough, but she also wants to combat the larger influence Rhea has on society as a whole.

And that's not even getting into the quagmire of the context of Rhea's extremism actions we see in Part 1 not being all that extreme. They get by mostly on showing that one crazy face animation.

In reality she never says that she is fighting for a certain social class, she points out against a system that can harm people (whether they are noble or not).

[null]

For me, I can’t empathize with either Rhea or Edelgard because I believe, as an old teacher of mine used to say: “It is never right to do wrong to do right.” Rhea hoping that Byleth would merge with Sothis to bring her mother back was incredibly selfish, and Rhea’s totalitarian mindset over the Church of Seiros was very similar to the Roman Catholic Church of the Middle Ages in its eradication of any heretics or opponents. It’s the same with Edelgard, who, in her quest for power, chose to disregard innocent human lives as secondary to her quest to be the Emperor. Both of these individuals had good intentions at best, but their amoral execution of these objectives destroyed any credibility they might have had, in my opinion. There’s no justice in either of their actions, only the blatant expression of their selfish motivations.

Admittedly, I’m more of a black-and-white kind of person when it comes to morality, so this probably influenced my perspective the most.

Edited May 4, 2020 by twilitfalchion

[Lightcosmo]

I'm not a fan on either of them, personally, but I don't think their backstories were done the "right" way, which makes it a bit hard to understand what happened and how they felt. Like, why not throw in some "past" scenes to show exactly what they seen through their eyes? It would make looking at what happened much easier, and actually have some decent character development. Of course what Rhea went through is sad, but since we don't see it, it doesn't have nearly as much impact on us. I think 3H did a poor job with something that had a lot of potential, but that's just my opinion.

[omegaxis1]

1 hour ago, lightcosmo said:

I'm not a fan on either of them, personally, but I don't think their backstories were done the "right" way, which makes it a bit hard to understand what happened and how they felt. Like, why not throw in some "past" scenes to show exactly what they seen through their eyes? It would make looking at what happened much easier, and actually have some decent character development. Of course what Rhea went through is sad, but since we don't see it, it doesn't have nearly as much impact on us. I think 3H did a poor job with something that had a lot of potential, but that's just my opinion.

Yeah. The game certainly loves to give Dimitri flashbacks and lots of CG images to make you feel bad for him. But give Edelgard and Claude nothing regarding that.

[Troykv]

8 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Yeah. The game certainly loves to give Dimitri flashbacks and lots of CG images to make you feel bad for him. But give Edelgard and Claude nothing regarding that.

Well, to be fair, there is something to think about these potential CGs...

When you would actually reveal Claude's Almyran origins?

And Edelgard's backstory includes content that may or may not be viable to be put in a Teen/B Rated Game

Edited May 4, 2020 by Troykv

[Blackstarskywalker]

1 hour ago, Troykv said:

Well, to be fair, there is something to think about these potential CGs...

When you would actually reveal Claude's Almyran origins?

And Edelgard's backstory includes content that may or may not be viable to be put in a Teen/B Rated Game

Well, the game puts Dimitri torturing Randolph (it's not explicit, but I know the context, to the point that Byleth kills that man to stop suffering).

So I see no problem putting flashbacks and more animations in Edelgard's route( don't have to be visually explicit).

[JubileePhoenix]

3 hours ago, twilitfalchion said:

For me, I can’t empathize with either Rhea or Edelgard because I believe, as an old teacher of mine used to say: “It is never right to do wrong to do right.” Rhea hoping that Byleth would merge with Sothis to bring her mother back was incredibly selfish, and Rhea’s totalitarian mindset over the Church of Seiros was very similar to the Roman Catholic Church of the Middle Ages in its eradication of any heretics or opponents. It’s the same with Edelgard, who, in her quest for power, chose to disregard innocent human lives as secondary to her quest to be the Emperor. Both of these individuals had good intentions at best, but their amoral execution of these objectives destroyed any credibility they might have had, in my opinion. There’s no justice in either of their actions, only the blatant expression of their selfish motivations.

Admittedly, I’m more of a black-and-white kind of person when it comes to morality, so this probably influenced my perspective the most.

My thoughts exactly. 

[Jotari]

4 hours ago, Blackstarskywalker said:

In reality she never says that she is fighting for a certain social class, she points out against a system that can harm people (whether they are noble or not).

Well she's fighting on behalf of the entire world, which is made up largely of the working class.

1 hour ago, omegaxis1 said:

Yeah. The game certainly loves to give Dimitri flashbacks and lots of CG images to make you feel bad for him. But give Edelgard and Claude nothing regarding that.

Claude gets lots of FMVs...he's just not in any of them.

Edited May 4, 2020 by Jotari