VW as dlc would've make 3H better

[leesangstar10]

Hoo boy this is probably a controversial opinion and it pains me to say this(since this was my first route), but hear me out.

First I'd like to say that this doesn't mean get rid of the Golden Deer and its students, the Alliance, and Alymyra(arguably without it doesn't affect the plot of the game much). It is more how getting rid of VW could've made the game better and how.

Why Verdant Wind specifically? Why not other routes?

1. VW is the weakest route as a narrative.

It is a clone of Silver Snow but better, but I'd disagree. If we look at each route individually, SS holds more emotional impact than VW.

For a first playthrough, VW you never got to know Edelgard. You really only have the few cut scenes she is in and the monastery to interact with her. So when Byleth was about to deal the final blow, Edelgard's saying "I wanted to walk with you" didn't make any sense since they shouldn't be close, more like aquatints. Personally, I was confused whether if I should feel sad or not.

However, in SS, you personally got to know Edelgard through the plot and supports, so killing her hold much more weight. When I finally played SS, I realized why they included that cutscene and the speech actually made sense! Additionally, when Edelgard revealed that she is the flame emperor was a moment where players felt betrayed. Then having the choice to side with her, a mist the betrayal or go against really adds a lot to the narrative. For VW, the reveal was very weak and rushed.

Yes Claude was a charming character, but these moment really hit home for me and made me appreciate 3H's writing. How charming a character is doesn't determine how good the a narrative will be. If I had to choose one of the two, I'd choose VW.

2. VW offers very little to the game

If we exclude everything that was in SS, all VW has to offer is Golden Deer characters and some extra lore. However, it didn't go as deep into a character as AM or CF did with Dimitri and Edelgard. The extra lore we learn about is Almyra and Nemesis. The lore about Nemesis can be covered and SS and Almyra can be taken out of the plot and it wouldn't affect much. 

3. Claude is an unimportant character

Out of the main cast, Byleth, Edelgard, Dimitri, Claude, Claude is easily the least important. Heck, I'd argue Rhea was more important. Other than VW, he makes brief appearances in other routes and doesn't offer much. For the most part, Claude was just there. Dimitri has a connection with Edelgard, which made him kind of relevant in CF. Even in his own route, he is not the sole focus. He shares a spotlight with Byleth. To me, he just seems like an important secondary character.

4. SS is more needed than VW plot wise.

The choice where you can choose to side Edelgard or not is needed. Not everybody would want to side with Edelgard on the first playthrough. You are essentially siding with the "bad guys"(TWSITD) that killed Byleth's father, Jeralt.

How will it make it better?

1. Will make the game less repetitive.

The biggest criticism people have on 3H is how repetitive the game is. If you want to get the full experience on the game, you would have to play all 4 route. Getting rid of VW means you only have to play part 1 a minimum 2 times. Not to mention, making each route unique.

2. The resources spent on making the VW could have been spent on making the overall game/routes better.

Saying 3H is a flawless game is wrong. I still love the game, but I can't ignore these flaws. There are so many reused maps, lack luster map design, CF's length, etc. With more time, they can fix a lot of these issues.

3. Not make the game unnecessarily long.

Like mentioned before, to get the full experience of the game, you have to play all 4 routes. It took me at least 200 hours finishing them all and to be honest, it being so long made the game kind of boring. A lot of what VW offers can be covered in other routes or just taken out. Yes I know you can just choose not to play either VW or SS, but for someone just getting into fire emblem, they wouldn't know that SS and VW is similar unless a friend played the game.

4. Give more time for devs to make VW unique!

Sure it may seem scummy blocking Claude with a pay wall, but there was no way IS would have been able to do this without the extra time. They have already delayed the game and doing it again will only frustrate fans even more. Not to mention, this will help devs develop Claude more as a character, go deeper into the lore, and make a "golden route" that some fans wanted(heh the pun). Personally I don't like the idea of a golden route(look at revelations), but still I do think giving it more time through dlc would have made VW more unique(not to mention appease the fan of that are dissatisfied with CS)

I might edit this if there are some things I didn't clarify enough/wrong. Let me know what your thoughts are! I hope IS never does these multiple route splits again. 

Edited May 8, 2020 by leesangstar10

[Dinar87]

Oi don't diss me bro Claud!!

[Etrurian emperor]

Personally I'd say Silver Snow is the weak link. There are criticism you can give Claude but his presence adds something. Byleth being a mute means he cannot carry a story on his own. He needs a lord to drive the plot forward and thus Edelgard's absence leaves a hole that even Seteth can't really fill. Verdant Wind also gives more detail to the Alliance which is more interesting then just the church. 

If you compare the two routes then Silver Snow comes across as the empty route. There would be little lost if you remove it while removing Verdant Wind cannot be done without removing at least something. 

Edited May 3, 2020 by Etrurian emperor

[SatsumaFSoysoy]

First off, probably a good idea to mark the topic as spoilers in the title just in case? Someone might breathe down your neck.

In a perfect world, I'd probably prefer that they came up with a better concept for Claude and VW, I guess? They nailed the more superficial parts of his personality, but it was clear to me that they didn't really know what to do with him in particular in the main plot after coming up with all the stuff about his background. In a sense, Edelgard, Dimitri and Rhea make a better trio than the house leaders. They form a core of philosophies with intertwining themes such as shades of morality, ends vs means, greater good vs common good, idealism and realism etc., while Claude's motivations are curiosity and open borders... In a sense, he does serve an interesting role as showing how despite all the conflict and prejudice over Crests in Fodlan, he still managed to be discriminated against in his childhood for something completely unrelated, so his existence can be seen as a subtle suggestion of how pointless the war in Fodlan is on a grander scale. But in the end, his moral message amounts to "prejudice is bad", which is the coldest take probably any lord in this series has championed (same as Ike? Though I guess he did have other things to say too).

If the deadlines and resources were all set in stone and both Claude and VW didn't exist (which wouldn't make sense when you think about it), maybe the diverted time and resources could've made Crimson Flower more fleshed out. But I highly doubt the game overall would've been a more complete experience, unless literally everything about about Claude, the Alliance and maybe even Almyra were removed. Which would just be a completely different game, and it's possible the story could've suffered in other ways from that.

[Crysta]

do we really want a three houses without claude, hilda, lysithea, or marianne?

i don't want to live in that timeline

[Saint Rubenio]

Finally! Someone else said it. As somebody who played 3H and did not enjoy it, I've always believed that, if VW did not exist, the game would've been far better off for it.

The game has a lot to love, but overall it reeks of budget and time constraints. With all the time and money spent on Claude's copypasted route, they would've been able to polish the other three routes, improve the map design (I'm fine with reused maps, but they're all so average - at best!), add much needed chapters to the other routes (for instance, allow us to take down TWSITD in CF)... things like that. The result would've been a perhaps smaller product, but one of much higher quality, and I believe that's what counts.

I understand a lot of people like Claude, but Claude doesn't need his own route. It doesn't add anything that SS couldn't have done, and Almyra is pretty useless to the plot. Make Claude a secondary character (I mean, he already is a glorified secondary) and put him and the rest of the Golden Deer in the other houses, and there you go.

Not only do you get more time and budget to spend on the actually important routes, but you also get a bigger cast for them, so ironmanning becomes semi-feasible. Also, Gronder Field would be so much better without having to shoehorn Claude in there. The game would still have a few flaws, for instance the difficulties would still be crap (hard is too easy to break, maddening requires you break it), but at least that's a few massive issues out of the picture.

...personally, though, I would do away with the whole concept of routes. All it does is stretch the available resources too thin, and 3H makes it clear that they're not up to the task. FE was perfectly fun and replayable without this manner of artificial replayability boost. But that's just my opinion, of course.

[Ottservia]

Really the core issue I have with VW that makes it the worst route in my eyes is that it has no thematically relevant antagonist for Claude or Byleth(well kind of in Byleth’s case). In CF Edelgard has Rhea and Dimitri. In AM Dimitri has Edelgard. In SS Byleth has Edelgard. In VW Claude has ??????? Nemisis maybe? But that there lies the problem what thematic relevance does Nemisis have to Claude’s character. If anything Rhea would actually be a more fitting antagonist for Claude. Nemisis makes more sense as a thematic foil to Edelgard and Byleth if anything or hell even Rhea. He works much better as a villain in SS and CF. In VW he’s just kinda there so the route can have a final boss and has no thematic significance to anything surrounding Claude’s character.

[The Roger The Paladin]

10 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

and has no thematic significance to anything surrounding Claude’s character.

That's pretty much my problem with Verdant Wind as well. While Nemesis map is a favourite, it only highlights that Claude's kind of irrelevant. He's an empty promise. He's a character that offers the world, then fades out of most routes without really affecting the story to any true degree. Seriously, handing over the alliance in the Azure Moon for instance... is arguably no different from the king of Aurelis handing over the reigns of Aurelis to Marth in Mystery/New Mystery. It's a story explanation for your army's strength suddenly being enough to go for the endgame, and if an almost forgotten NPC can fill the same role... what's that imply of Claude's role? That it was under-developed. A casualty of the time constraints. I'm not advocating for his removal for the game, so don't take it that way. I'm merely lamenting the hollow promise that Claude offered as a protagonist.... as he turned out more or less filler.

[vanguard333]

I've recently been playing through Verdant Wind for the first time as my second playthrough overall (my first being Crimson Flower). Even I could tell which cutscenes were clearly designed for Silver Snow. 

Claude had a lot of potential that was sadly wasted. I don't think they should've removed Claude or the Verdant Wind route, but I agree about Claude and Verdant Wind being made pretty much irrelevant. 

[Crysta]

On a more serious note, I can't really see anything that recommends SS over VW narrative-wise outside of a single more relevant cutscene and being the alternative BE route (this being the bigger reason why I think it needs to exist). It has the potential for some good Edelgard versus Byleth drama due to their prior relationship but it doesn't really pan out outside of the two post TS cutscenes, which would be the payoff I'd want if I couldn't have the student I bonded with the most actually with me for the second half of the game. The most compelling Church-centric character is Rhea, who is also criminally absent for a significant portion of the post-TS timeframe. You get boomer Dragon dad and loli to help guide you narratively through the second half of the game, neither of whom you really bonded with for the first half and you still get plenty of them in the other respective routes anyway. You get the Black Eagles... which you get in another infinitely better route, and it's not like anything truly unique is added to them in SS, either. The other two lords literally just go die offscreen lol.

Criticizing Claude for being disconnected to the Edelgard versus Dimitri/Rhea drama is legit, but he's with you the entire way and does his job as a supportive companion/student. And unlike the end of SS that just gives you godemperor Byleth with the political acumen and personality of wet cardboard, you're at least helping someone with actual ambition fulfill their goal, so generally most players feel better about finishing it.

Unless I'm wrong and the SS fanclub is much bigger than what I've seen thus far.

It's like a weird early prototype with identical plot beats but none of the additional flavor unless you're in it just for the dank music and better cutscenes (which I'd argue it undoubtedly has over VW).

Edited May 3, 2020 by Crysta

[Gregster101]

I'm one of those people who prefers Verdant Wind over Silver Snow, simply because Byleth having a lord to talk to in the form of Claude is better than Byleth having NO LORD to talk to at all. As Etrurian Emperor said, Byleth, as the mute avatar with no personality, simply cannot carry a story on his own, he needs another lord to talk to drive the plot, which is the biggest issue I have with the Silver Snow route. Say what you will about Verdant Wind, but Silver Snow just feels so empty and hollow in comparison. I literally cannot understand how anyone could prefer Silver Snow over Verdant Wind or Azure Moon for that matter.

[Ottservia]

23 minutes ago, Gregster101 said:

I'm one of those people who prefers Verdant Wind over Silver Snow, simply because Byleth having a lord to talk to in the form of Claude is better than Byleth having NO LORD to talk to at all. As Etrurian Emperor said, Byleth, as the mute avatar with no personality, simply cannot carry a story on his own, he needs another lord to talk to drive the plot, which is the biggest issue I have with the Silver Snow route. Say what you will about Verdant Wind, but Silver Snow just feels so empty and hollow in comparison. I literally cannot understand how anyone could prefer Silver Snow over Verdant Wind or Azure Moon for that matter.

But at least in SS there’s an actually meaningful thematic conflict in the form of Byleth vs Edelgard. We don’t have any of that in VW like at all. Sure Claude may make the route feel a little more substantial and fun to go through but it’s no less empty than SS cause there’s no deeper more meaningful conflict here besides the whole surface level “can’t let the empire win”. There’s no depth to that conflict at least as far as Claude or Byleth is concerned. Neither of them have really any stake in it and that’s why I peg it lower than SS cause at least with SS the conflict is actually meaningful to the characters involved.

[Yexin]

yeah, i basically agree with everything @leesangstar10 said in his opening post

also, it's been since the game was released that i've been wondering about why the presence of 2 or 3 more cutscenes should prove that one route (VW) is superior or more complete than another one (SS)

it doesn't prove anything, aside form the fact that... one route has 2 or 3 more cutscenes than another one, but it doesn't necessarily mean that one route is better

to me, it really felt like they simply didn't find a moment in the game when to give the player informations such as the true nature of the Hero Relics and so on, and since SS was already complete but didn't contain those informations because they wanted to focus on its final chapter, they had no choice but to shove them in VW with no actual reason, with the "Claude is curious so he asks Rhea" excuse

same logic applies to Nemesis, it really makes no sense to fight him in VW since the route's focus is completely different, but probably there was simply no space for that to happen in SS, because that route already had its focus

[Gregster101]

45 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

But at least in SS there’s an actually meaningful thematic conflict in the form of Byleth vs Edelgard. We don’t have any of that in VW like at all. Sure Claude may make the route feel a little more substantial and fun to go through but it’s no less empty than SS cause there’s no deeper more meaningful conflict here besides the whole surface level “can’t let the empire win”. There’s no depth to that conflict at least as far as Claude or Byleth is concerned. Neither of them have really any stake in it and that’s why I peg it lower than SS cause at least with SS the conflict is actually meaningful to the characters involved.

Considering you're the same guy who thinks Fates' story is good, I'm not surprised by another one of your bad takes

[haarhaarhaar]

I think Claude just is thematically weaker than the other lords (we see nothing real of his interactions with Almyra, just reports of it from his supports and Nader, who is already onside by TS and we know fairly little about, despite one of Claude's big goals being to open up Fodlan to Almyra). It frankly would have been amazing to see Claude's route diverge significantly from the other three (which as people have pointed out are quite well linked to each other). But, even if he fails to deliver on being a sneaky strategist, he is miles more compelling than Seteth and Flayn, and when you're in the moment playing (and don't know what's in store for either route) that feels more important than the themes you reflect on once the game is finished. Although obviously having both thematic integrity and compelling characters is the dream.

I really enjoyed my VW run, and it felt the most complete of my runs so far, but I think if it were a choice between VW as it was and strengthening the other routes properly (integrating Nemesis/TWSITD/the Golden Deer naturally, not copying so much material etc.) then I'd choose the latter. But my ideal would have been to keep all four routes, and just differentiate SS and VW significantly more.

[Ottservia]

Because my opinion on Fates’s story totally makes any and all of my points on story telling completely invalid. 

[FoxyGrandpa]

Haven't played Silver Snow yet, but based on what I've seen online, it seems pretty apparent that the route's main character is Byleth, what with his crest being the new banner of the resistance army, his past being delved into further, & him being crowned king of Fodlan at the end of the route. Edelgard & Rhea are both humanized more, making the points where you fight them more heartbreaking. 

When I played Golden Deer, a lot of this stuff, like Byleth's crest being the banner of the resistance army seemed weird. Wasn't Claude suppose to be the main character? Why is the resistance army fighting under Byleth's name? As his teacher, I felt Byleth should have been the one to help Claude deal with his struggles like he did for Dimitri or Edelgard. However, there was no point in the story where I felt Claude was sufficiently challenged. He's still a good character, but I wish the devs had delved much more in his secretive past since that's something he's clearly not comfortable about & it would have challenged him more. A confrontation with Count Gloucester in particular would have been a really good way to challenge him about his background, while also help tying up Rapheal, Ignatz, and Lorenz's stories. 

All that being said, even in its current state, I don't think Verdant Wind's inclusion is bad for the game. Its the closest thing this game has to a golden route & the game ends on a happy note rather than a bittersweet one like in other routes. Even though I felt Claude should have been challenged more, his presence always made the events going on in the route more interesting.

 

 

[The Roger The Paladin]

1 hour ago, Gregster101 said:

Considering you're the same guy who thinks Fates' story is good, I'm not surprised by another one of your bad takes

That's what we call an "ad hominem" in debating. It's an argument attacking the person rather than the position they've taken and is considered poor form because it neither debunks their points or produces any counterpoints to their points. Also pointless in the context of this situation as an opinion on this is definitively subjective, seeing as everyone's going to value different aspects of the routes.

[vanguard333]

18 minutes ago, FoxyGrandpa said:

 Its the closest thing this game has to a golden route & the game ends on a happy note rather than a bittersweet one like in other routes. 

That, for me at least, is a problem with the route; not a good thing. They should all be bittersweet in their own ways so that there's no clear "better ending for Fodlan". VW being more happy than bittersweet is not a good thing. 

[Nym]

This thread's title should have been: "Why making VW a copy of SW with a few minor tweaks was a bad idea".

As much as I like Claude, this route did nothing  to portray him in a good light unlike the other two's routes.

As much as people complains about CF being short, AT LEAST your route is unique. 

We never see Claude do anything with his schemes in VW outside of that one time in Fort Merceus. But even then, all of that build-up for just Claude being deploy far from your units with a few green units alongside him. After that, no more schemes.

Ironically enough, the battle against Claude in CF has shown better how much Claude can be a good tactician with his schemes.

[vanguard333]

1 minute ago, Nym said:

This thread's title should have been: "Why making VW a copy of SW with a few minor tweaks was a bad idea".

As much as I like Claude, this route did nothing  to portray him in a good light unlike the other two's routes.

As much as people complains about CF being short, AT LEAST your route is unique. 

We never see Claude do anything with his schemes in VW outside of that one time in Fort Merceus. But even then, all of that build-up for just Claude being deploy far from your units with a few green units alongside him. After that, no more schemes.

Ironically enough, the battle against Claude in CF has shown better how much Claude can be a good tactician with his schemes.

All this. I completely agree. As much as I wish the Crimson Flower route was longer, it is unique and it showed off Claude as a tactician. It also had Claude make more progress towards his goal, especially if you spare him, than he does in his actual route!

 

Speaking of the other routes, I would've loved if, in all routes outside of Verdant Wind, Claude overplayed his hand: not only bringing in the Almyran forces, but also allying with Sreng and Dagda; causing the Kingdom and the Empire to think he's plotting an invasion. The idea would probably need more refinement, but it would make his role in the other routes a bit more substantial. 

[Crysta]

He overplays his hand in CF and AM in thinking his fake civil war was going to work for any meaningful amount of time, particularly if you also decide to kill him.

He would have been similarly screwed if Dimitri suddenly didn't regain his moral compass.

My problem with him in other routes - particularly in AM and SS - is it seems contrived that he suddenly feels he can trust Byleth/the Church in SS or that Dimitri is going to see the light in time to save him because Byleth is just that awesome after he may have just witnessed him murdering his friends and frothing at the mouth. His characterization in VW may actually be the least annoying to me lol.

I think it was a mistake to bill him as a sneaky battlefield tactician versus a diplomat who is willing to try risky gambits for either an epic win or an utter fail. Cuz he does that a lot, even if it's not very exciting.

[Azz]

While I do prefer VW to SS, I definitely think, overall, VW is very disappointing. The only think VW really provides is the closest thing to a 'golden' ending (TWSITD are wiped out, or at least every major player is, Nemesis is defeated permanently, Byleth unifies Fodlan and Claude helps break barriers with countries out of Fodlan). Claude was just really mishandled imo unfortunately and I think that's the main downfall. Claude is built up as this guy who is a great schemer and essentially wants to end racism but he doesn't really have any major schemes in any route besides AM but even then, it's iffy and the story doesn't focus on Claude wanting to end discrimination enough at all.

VW could've easily been fine a SS copy-paste if it actually had Claude as a main character rather than him being a slightly more animated adviser to Byleth than Seteh was in SS.

[Etrurian emperor]

4 hours ago, Ottservia said:

But at least in SS there’s an actually meaningful thematic conflict in the form of Byleth vs Edelgard.

My problem with that would be that a conflict cannot be engaging if only one of the participants is an actual character. The conflict between a revolutionary emperor with goals and ambition, and a mute that has neither is inherently one sided. It would have worked wonders if Rhea was present for much of the route and we had a conflict between Rhea and Edelgard. But we don't have that. Edelgard has an emotional attachment to Byleth but that's somewhat devalued by Byleth being an avatar.  

[leesangstar10]

9 hours ago, SatsumaFSoysoy said:

But I highly doubt the game overall would've been a more complete experience, unless literally everything about about Claude, the Alliance and maybe even Almyra were removed. Which would just be a completely different game, and it's possible the story could've suffered in other ways from that.

First I'd like to address. I do not mean get rid of Golden Deer, the Alliance, or even Claude. I said instead of VW being a route on its own, it would've been better without it to add more to other routes and make them more unique. They could just make Claude an important secondary character. Heck maybe having Claude's route be dlc would have given it more time for the developers to make the route more fleshed out. Pull a revelation and have it the "golden" route.(but make the actual plot good thou)

6 hours ago, Crysta said:

On a more serious note, I can't really see anything that recommends SS over VW narrative-wise outside of a single more relevant cutscene and being the alternative BE route (this being the bigger reason why I think it needs to exist). It has the potential for some good Edelgard versus Byleth drama due to their prior relationship but it doesn't really pan out outside of the two post TS cutscenes, which would be the payoff I'd want if I couldn't have the student I bonded with the most actually with me for the second half of the game. The most compelling Church-centric character is Rhea, who is also criminally absent for a significant portion of the post-TS timeframe. You get boomer Dragon dad and loli to help guide you narratively through the second half of the game, neither of whom you really bonded with for the first half and you still get plenty of them in the other respective routes anyway. You get the Black Eagles... which you get in another infinitely better route, and it's not like anything truly unique is added to them in SS, either. The other two lords literally just go die offscreen lol.

Second, there really isn't much that VW has over SS as a narrative. Nobody has talked about what makes VW better than SS other than Claude. One character doesn't make the narrative of VW automatically better. Claude isn't even the main focus of his own route too. He shares a spotlight with Byleth. Sure he does help carry the story, but he doesn't add anything more than what SS does plot wise. Also there is so much more in the Edelgard vs Byleth than just 2 cutscene. There is still the choice where Byleth have to choose Edelgard or the Church before TS and the fact you going war against someone you knew personally. 

Third, my argument isn't why SS is better than VW. It is why VW should've been taken out so that they can use the time and resources to strengthen the other routes and how it would have made 3H overall a better game. I explain why VW is the weakest to show why I choose to get rid of VW out of all the routes and compared it to SS to show how little it offered. Anything extra VW like lore could've been went into other routes. In a perfect world, I would've wished for all 4 routes to be in the game and all of them were more fleshed out, but that is very unrealistic considering how long they have delayed this game. 

Edited May 3, 2020 by leesangstar10