VW as dlc would've make 3H better

[Ottservia]

3 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

I will say that there is some reason to care about Thales and TWSITD in Verdant Wind: Lysithea. She's one of your students after all, and they experimented on her.

that would be great if they actually bothered to develop and deliver on that plot point but they don't do that now do they. 3H's story honestly has a fetish for developing plot points that go absolutely nowhere

[vanguard333]

3 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

that would be great if they actually bothered to develop and deliver on that plot point but they don't do that now do they. 3H's story honestly has a fetish for developing plot points that go absolutely nowhere

I would agree to that. I recruited Ashe in my Crimson Flower playthrough because I felt sorry for him after Lonato's death. He said his reason for siding with Edelgard is that he needs answers for what happened to Christophe and Lonato, and it never comes up again. I kept setting up Ashe vs Catherine and even did Ashe vs Rhea, hoping for at least some acknowledgement of it, and nothing. At first, I chalked it up to Ashe being a recruited character, but then I found out that Felix and some other Blue Lions characters get unique battle dialogue if recruited on the Crimson Flower route; Ashe is the odd one out, even though he's the one that makes the most sense to recruit (story-wise)!

[eclipse]

46 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

I'm not sure about driving off Almyra, but I think it would be interesting if Claude had utilized his Almyran heritage a lot more post-timeskip and advanced his plans for opening up Fodlan. Perhaps he brings in Almyran troops even earlier on to keep both the Empire and the "Kingdom (i.e. the Dukedom)" out of the Alliance. 

Then, Gronder Field would have more reason to be a three-way fight, as Dimitri would oppose the idea of bringing Almyran forces into Fodlan (as their warrior-culture clashes with his ideals). This could be taken even further if, in non-Verdant Wind routes, Claude, due to not having the professor, overplayed this hand: creating alliances with Sreng and Dagda to assist in "opening up" Fodlan, and this gets seen by many as Claude allying with hostile nations and letting them "invade" Fodlan. 

H-hey, that's a good idea!  It would also give a good excuse to showcase the other countries in more than words.

[vanguard333]

36 minutes ago, eclipse said:

H-hey, that's a good idea!  It would also give a good excuse to showcase the other countries in more than words.

Thanks! Honestly, given how much Claude kept talking about wanting to open up Fodlan, while everyone else considers the nearby nations to be hostile, I was surprised by how little they were involved in the Verdant Wind route. 

To add to my idea, there would be some interesting notes on what Claude's doing from other characters as well. For just one example, Sylvain, if not recruited, will call out Claude on allying with Sreng: a nation Sylvain's family protects Fodlan from. Meanwhile, if recruited, he talks about having to interact with people from Sreng that are in Claude's army. Students from the Empire would also be against Claude for allying with Dagda. etc. 

Edited May 7, 2020 by vanguard333

[eclipse]

4 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

Thanks! Honestly, given how much Claude kept talking about wanting to open up Fodlan, while everyone else considers the nearby nations to be hostile, I was surprised by how little they were involved in the Verdant Wind route. 

To add to my idea, there would be some interesting notes on what Claude's doing from other characters as well. For just one example, Sylvain, if not recruited, will call out Claude on allying with Sreng: a nation Sylvain's family protects Fodlan from Sreng. Meanwhile, if recruited, he talks about having to interact with people from Sreng that are in Claude's army. Students from the Empire would also be against Claude for allying with Dagda. etc. 

Petra would have WORDS for Claude if he brought in troops from Dadga.  I'm sure Shamir would have her thoughts, though probably not as many.

[vanguard333]

1 hour ago, eclipse said:

Petra would have WORDS for Claude if he brought in troops from Dadga.  I'm sure Shamir would have her thoughts, though probably not as many.

Very true, and it's a shame that we never get to hear Petra say those words. There was so much potential for Verdant Wind and Claude...

Plus, it would've been rather unique; when was the last time an FE game involved the main continent's relation with other nations outside it as a major plot point?

Edited May 7, 2020 by vanguard333

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

If you propose keeping Claude and the Golden Deer in the game, but getting rid of Verdant Wind, what shape does that take? Byleth can only choose between teaching the Black Eagles and the Blue Lions? That seems like a much less complete game than what we got.

I can definitely agree with making changes to Verdant Wind (especially to differentiate it from Silver Snow), but to excise it entirely would create more problems than it solves.

[Anomalocaris]

Having just finished Verdant Wind yesterday, I'm sorta in agreement, sorta not.

I like Claude, and I like the Golden Deer. As characters, they're great. But Verdant Wind's plot doesn't really fit Claude's character arc and motives. "I want to tear down walls and open Fodlan up to the outer world!" But rather than doing any plot about Almyra or anything like that, we get... the war with Edelgard even though we barely met her beforehand, battling the Dubsteppers when they're a totally out-of-context problem that just coincidentally exists at the same time as Claude, and a final battle against Nemesis, because...?

Verdant Wind should have had a different plot that plays more to Claude's strengths; decrease the amount of time spent warring with Edelgard by trimming out a few of the excess battles and have a few battles with Dimitri's berserk forces as well, under the pretense that Claude is just trying to stabilize Fodlan rather than crusade against one enemy alone. Have Claude's ambitions of opening Fodlan to the outside world be underlying the entire time by actually including that outside world, perhaps with even visiting Almyra. Minimize Thales' involvement and steamroll over him without even knowing like in Azure Moon. And finally, have a thematically-appropriate final boss that's been built up to during the entire route like Rhea and Edelgard get in CF and AM. That may necessitate introducing a new character as early as during White Clouds, maybe a force that specifically wants to keep Fodlan closed-off but has ties to other villain groups.

Now, as others have mentioned, Silver Snow is pretty weak too, arguably weaker since it's basically just Verdant Wind without funny upside-down man to make things exciting. If Verdant Wind were changed as I suggested, Silver Snow would automatically become better by virtue of being the route to focus specifically on Fodlan's past and the Dubsteppers. It could also cannibalize Nemesis as a better final boss more fitting the route's focus. You could also potentially make Seteth and Flayn more prominent as the route's de facto lords, or even rescue Rhea early and have her become playable.

Edited May 8, 2020 by Anomalocaris

[Crysta]

Eh you likely needed to still steamroll the Slitherers to fit in with the other "finding the truth" theme that's unique to Claude as a foreigner in a foreign land. That's what he focuses on as a personal quest, and it's actually pretty prevalent in White Clouds. Gets sidetracked due to the war, but not entirely. Wouldn't do it via Rhea exposition dump and sudden Nemesis fight, myself, but I find myself less and less bothered by it.

Dimitri accidentally killing Thales and being unaware of what's really going on around him fits because his route is all about him getting over his murdercrush and forgiving himself, and defeating Edelgard.

[leesangstar10]

21 hours ago, Landmaster said:

Problem is, we should be allowed to say no to Edelgard. So we do need SS in that sense. What VW really needed was to have more focus on the Alliance similar to what the Kingdom and Empire get in their routes. We never get to see much of the Alliance and there's plenty of development we could have gotten there. Claude needed a bigger push and presence in his own route. SS should have then just very simply had more diversity than just a copy-paste of VW with different characters. I still don't understand why they felt the need not to make SS have its own unique story. 

Something I did think of but forgot to mention and needs to be brought up more on why SS over VW. We need that choice. Not everybody is just going to side with Edelgard automatically especially if this is you first playthrough. You don't even know what really her reason for doing and you are essentially siding with the "bad guys"(TWSITD people who killed your father Jeralt and done evil experiments on ppl).

My opinion has changed slightly due to ppl bringing up how it is essentially cutting a third of Fodland.

I am not considering the point devs could've made VW more unique because they had a budget and time constraints. There was no way they would've had enough time before the release date(not to mention they delayed it several times)

So I think VW should've been cut from base game and make it dlc to give IS more time to develop a more unique story. Imo if the dev did this, 3H would have been much better(considering how much ppl did not like CS. I regret preordering dlc). 

Edited May 8, 2020 by leesangstar10

[Crysta]

Are we proposing allowing the Deer to stay at the monastery but gating their actual route behind DLC, or removing the Deer entirely and gating VW/the Alliance behind DLC instead?

Both are awful (I can hear the cries of "this should have been in the base game!" already) but for different reasons.

[leesangstar10]

10 minutes ago, Crysta said:

Are we proposing allowing the Deer to stay at the monastery but gating their actual route behind DLC, or removing the Deer entirely and gating VW/the Alliance behind DLC instead?

Both are awful (I can hear the cries of "this should have been in the base game!" already) but for different reasons.

the route as dlc. they could have Claude join SS/AM post time skip some time later(bringing back late game recruits. I really wanted this)

[Crysta]

Better call it Two Houses/War of Houses, then. I don't think "Three Houses But One Is DLC" would a winner, either as a concept or in practice, but that's just going to be a difference of opinion I guess.

Edited May 8, 2020 by Crysta

[Landmaster]

11 hours ago, vikingsfan92 said:

I still say nah that is not really needed.  Byleth's main attachment is not the church but the students. Keep in mind that Byleth was raised by Jeralt with no ties to any religion at all. Alot of optional dialouge boxes that pop up through out the game on all routes show a priority towards the students above all else. Jeralt even comments on how much Byleth changes since coming to the monastery and it is all because of being a teacher as indicated through Byleth's response. Also keep in mind that the Sothis part of Byleth shows a lot of mistrust towards Rhea during part 1 and Sothis is probably the closest we get to Byleth's own personal thoughts.  This is also reinforced by Byleth's father pretty much being like "Watch out for Rhea I don't know what she has planning" through out there joint time at the monastery.  Byleth as is has alot more reason to follow there charges and help them over sticking with the church.

 

This doesn't just apply to Edelgard btw but if Cluade or Dimtri also were more anti-church I still find it more likely that Byleth sides with what ever path they choose over the church who Byleth has less ties too.  Bear in mind that as a teacher Byleth spends more time with the students than the other faculty especially since Rhea also has a busy schedule as Archbishop. So I find it more likely Byleth chooses the stronger bond with the house of their choice over the church with what we have to go off. Again this isn't just talking about Edlgard but Claude and Dimitri as well in their routes it just don't come up in those routes as much.

Byleth should not be obligated to side with Edelgard. Byleth doesn't need to have any kind of religious connection with the church to not want to attack them. They have lived there for about a year when the attack in the Holy Tomb occurs. Byleth has no problems with any of those at the Monestary. So they should absolutely have the right to refuse Edelgard.

[Crysta]

Shoehorning a player into supporting a character who is clearly doing morally dubious stuff is bad, particularly if you've given them no indication that the character is going to do questionable stuff before they choose to follow them. There is a reason why SS is actually supposed to be the "default" BE route, while CF is the trickier one to get into.

Sadly this alone doesn't make it an actually good route to play through.

Edited May 8, 2020 by Crysta

[vikingsfan92]

3 minutes ago, Landmaster said:

Byleth should not be obligated to side with Edelgard. Byleth doesn't need to have any kind of religious connection with the church to not want to attack them. They have lived there for about a year when the attack in the Holy Tomb occurs. Byleth has no problems with any of those at the Monestary. So they should absolutely have the right to refuse Edelgard.

 

3 minutes ago, Crysta said:

Shoehorning a player into supporting a character who is clearly doing morally dubious stuff is bad, particularly if you've given them no indication that the character is going to do questionable stuff before they choose to follow them. There is a reason why SS is actually supposed to be the "default" BE route, while CF is the trickier one to get into.

My point was the bonds Bylteth has with their own house (which can include everyone other than the other two lords Dedue, Hubert and if your on CF specifically Hilda) is likely stronger than those with the church big wigs by a significant amount. Byleth spends far more time with people like Annette and Mecie over Rhea and Seteth.  Part of it is due to their jobs and roles that they have to play sure but it is a pretty large factor.

Also I think both of you are trying to make it about Edelgard when it isn't really. I think Byleth chooses Dimtiri who goes against the church or Claude who goes against the church too. Yes the story didn't play out that way but Byleth's strongest bonds are with the students over Rhea and the other church officials. The teacher side is how Byleth grew and actually became more expressive I don't see Byleth going against that for Rhea who Byleth has a bond with but not nearly the one that Byleth has with their entire house.  Its more so I am arguing Rhea < [entire house of players choice] as far as bonds go that I am arguing for than anything and if forced to choose on ANY route its more likely that they side with their students than the staff of the monastery.  Its why Silver snow is so flawed as it tries to push the bond that clearly doesn't have much impact.

[Crysta]

With SS, Byleth doesn't need to sacrifice his bonds with the rest of his students. They follow after him either way.

That being the case, how is it not about Edelgard? Your bond with the rest of your students may be just as significant, but they aren't the deciding factor.

Edited May 8, 2020 by Crysta

[vikingsfan92]

8 minutes ago, Crysta said:

With SS, Byleth doesn't need to sacrifice his bonds with the rest of his students. They follow after him either way.

That being the case, how is it not about Edelgard? Your bond with the rest of your students may be just as significant, but they aren't the deciding factor.

Your still on a different page from what I am saying so let me try saying it another way.  I am saying that SS has massive massive issues no matter what route you attach it too.   You are giving up a massive investment of several highly invested charcters for lesser invested ones and its not even done well.  The role played by the house leaders and there friends is simply too heavily invested in to go to others midstory and it doesn't really matter which one they try to replace. The routes push your bonds with the mainlords way more than they do with Rhea and Seteth. 

For the record I think the fact you are for or against the church is irreverent for if SS is good or not. SS would still be the most flawed route if all three houses worked in Harmony but you didn't get to play with or interact the most heavily story invested characters being Claude, Dimtri and Edelgard other than one or two cutscenes they help you out in.  The games story is just not set up to have other charcters try to take there place. And a big reason for that is the bonds with your students (which includes them) being so much more developed than the others.

[Crysta]

Alright, I think I get you better, and I generally agree. It sounds like the generally agreed sentiment that Seteth/Flayn just can't fill the role of an Edelgard or Claude, and it'd still suck even if you cut out VW and put additional resources into the remaining routes?

Edited May 8, 2020 by Crysta

[vikingsfan92]

1 hour ago, Crysta said:

Alright, I think I get you better, and I generally agree. It sounds like the generally agreed sentiment that Seteth/Flayn just can't fill the role of an Edelgard or Claude, and it'd still suck even if you cut out VW and put additional resources into the remaining routes?

Pretty much but I would say its not really Seteth or Flayn being lacking so much as its a down right impossible fill and as such I would rather they cut SS as it attempts to fill impossible holes rather than vw. VW has value in my eyes but SS doesn't as it goes down a road that doesn't really lead anywhere without opening massive holes.

Edited May 8, 2020 by vikingsfan92

[Landmaster]

13 hours ago, vikingsfan92 said:

 

My point was the bonds Bylteth has with their own house (which can include everyone other than the other two lords Dedue, Hubert and if your on CF specifically Hilda) is likely stronger than those with the church big wigs by a significant amount. Byleth spends far more time with people like Annette and Mecie over Rhea and Seteth.  Part of it is due to their jobs and roles that they have to play sure but it is a pretty large factor.

Also I think both of you are trying to make it about Edelgard when it isn't really. I think Byleth chooses Dimtiri who goes against the church or Claude who goes against the church too. Yes the story didn't play out that way but Byleth's strongest bonds are with the students over Rhea and the other church officials. The teacher side is how Byleth grew and actually became more expressive I don't see Byleth going against that for Rhea who Byleth has a bond with but not nearly the one that Byleth has with their entire house.  Its more so I am arguing Rhea < [entire house of players choice] as far as bonds go that I am arguing for than anything and if forced to choose on ANY route its more likely that they side with their students than the staff of the monastery.  Its why Silver snow is so flawed as it tries to push the bond that clearly doesn't have much impact.

It's not about Edelgard, it's about not attacking the Church whom they have no reason to do so. If Claude or Dimitri had Edelgard's role, my answer would be the same. Byleth should be able to refuse declaring war on the church, period. Having a bond with your students doesn't mean I'm going to agree to attack the church with you. Especially since refusing does not result in your entire class leaving, it's only Edelgard and Hubert. So the majority of students stick with Byleth's decision, regardless. 

[Timlugia]

I think we also need to consider a variable here when discussing value of Silver Snow vs Verdant Wind:

Had VW was not rushed on release date, but as a post release DLC content, both Silver Snow and Crimson Flower might look very different today

I don't know how much time and effort they spent on Verdant Wind, but the same resources could be used to greatly improve other routes.

 

Besides, if Verdant Wind was released later, it is almost guaranteed it would be a completely unique path rather than copy of Silver Snow.

[vikingsfan92]

1 hour ago, Landmaster said:

It's not about Edelgard, it's about not attacking the Church whom they have no reason to do so. If Claude or Dimitri had Edelgard's role, my answer would be the same. Byleth should be able to refuse declaring war on the church, period. Having a bond with your students doesn't mean I'm going to agree to attack the church with you. Especially since refusing does not result in your entire class leaving, it's only Edelgard and Hubert. So the majority of students stick with Byleth's decision, regardless. 

You have even less reason to go after the student who is against the church is my point. Whether that is Dimtri, Edelgard, Calude or another one of your students doesn't really matter that much.  Part 1 interactions with heck even part 2 interactions with the church on non-cf give you reasons to be wary of them on all routes. Two of the biggest non-student influnces on Byleth Sothis and Jeralt are like don't trust the church too much.  Yes it is a hard choice but the payoff for SS is practically non-existent because how much more development of characters the students got over the staff.

23 minutes ago, Timlugia said:

I think we also need to consider a variable here when discussing value of Silver Snow vs Verdant Wind:

Had VW was not rushed on release date, but as a post release DLC content, both Silver Snow and Crimson Flower might look very different today

I don't know how much time and effort they spent on Verdant Wind, but the same resources could be used to greatly improve other routes.

 

Besides, if Verdant Wind was released later, it is almost guaranteed it would be a completely unique path rather than copy of Silver Snow.

Still would rather SS be dlc or removed entirely. I don't think its a given that VW is the one that should be the one on the chopping block over SS. Plus logically it makes more sense to have a route for all three routes be release at launch.

[Landmaster]

3 hours ago, vikingsfan92 said:

You have even less reason to go after the student who is against the church is my point. Whether that is Dimtri, Edelgard, Calude or another one of your students doesn't really matter that much.  Part 1 interactions with heck even part 2 interactions with the church on non-cf give you reasons to be wary of them on all routes. Two of the biggest non-student influnces on Byleth Sothis and Jeralt are like don't trust the church too much.  Yes it is a hard choice but the payoff for SS is practically non-existent because how much more development of characters the students got over the staff.

Except you're not going after Edelgard until she attacks. SS just has you saying you won't join Edelgard to attack the church. It's a choice of self-defense, not aggression. Being wary of the church does not mean you're going to agree to attack them. I don't know what part of this is so hard to understand. Just because Jeralt, Sothis, Edelgard, Claude, etc. are wary of the church is not a go ahead to declare war on them. Byleth could not trust a word Seteth says and still not want to go to war against him.

The payoff in SS not being good is on the fault of the writing. It could have differed more from VW and the experience overall would have been better. But we should still be allowed to tell Edelgard no.

[leesangstar10]

10 hours ago, Timlugia said:

I think we also need to consider a variable here when discussing value of Silver Snow vs Verdant Wind:

Had VW was not rushed on release date, but as a post release DLC content, both Silver Snow and Crimson Flower might look very different today

I don't know how much time and effort they spent on Verdant Wind, but the same resources could be used to greatly improve other routes.

 

Besides, if Verdant Wind was released later, it is almost guaranteed it would be a completely unique path rather than copy of Silver Snow.

I highly doubt that SS would look different if they did do that. SS was the first route created and they based the others routes on it. So if SS changed, that would mean the other routes would also have to be re worked. They might make minor changes to make it overall better(ex. the part with Judith), but nothing drastic.

CF probably just be extended. I dont think there would be any drastic changes, but hard to tell thou.

But yes it would def would be much different. Revelations wasn't a copy of either Conquest or Birthright.(even though most ppl consider it to be the worst FE game, you can't deny that they made effort)