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VW as dlc would've make 3H better

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Not sure why it's a "almost guarantee" it'd be 100% unique when AM doesn't structurally deviate much from SS, either. It really was just the rough draft the other routes borrowed from - the only exception being CF.

 

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I haven't played SS, but I was disappointed in VW... that said I don't like the idea of saving his route for DLC or even making it the Golden Route. Tbh I wonder if maybe the best course of action would've been keeping their original plan of having only SS/CF, with the students from other houses being recruitable as usual but keeping Dimitri locked to SS, which would incorporate his arc from AM, and Claude locked to CF, as secondary lords. VW makes a point of how Claude and Edelgard shared some ideals, and for being built up as a schemer he never really does anything to earn that reputation. How could he have been more involved in the plot? If he was actually taking advantage of the situation to further his own goals, playing both sides to find out the truth, and joining Edelgard mid to late game to take out TWSITD.

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I originally figured that if the choice were between the game as-is and DLC-locking VW to improve the other routes, then I'd go with the latter. But now I wonder if the route that should have been DLC-locked (if a route had to be delayed to improve quality) was CF. If CF had been released in a slightly more complete form, with Jeritza fully integrated into the game, and a couple of TWSITD chapters after Rhea, then that would be amazing value - a bit longer than CS, while being a main story route with a new perspective. It would have been an extremely ballsy switch to pull given the insane hype for Edelgard, but having your lord unavoidably become your enemy in the Black Eagles route (before DLC) is the kind of formula-breaking twist that would have made SS genuinely emotionally heavy. Delaying CF would have also made the dichotomy of Edelgard/Rhea (and the Edelgard/Dimitri conflict) much more powerful, as well as preventing many players from playing CF first (which is a bit of a head-scratcher plot wise on your first playthrough).

SS has plenty of other weaknesses anyway, and my criticism about VW needing to have been significantly different from SS still stands, but if a route needed to be delayed as DLC to make the others better, CF seems like a better choice than the rest. 

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So, now the proposal is to make Verdant Wind a DLC release?

...Please, no. I played Golden Deer first, and would have been sorely disappointed if that had not been an option from day one. And not only that, but to put it behind a paywall is rather insulting. DLC should be extra content that isn't essential to the game (like Cindered Shadows) - it should not be an entire route following one of the main characters, in one of the main nations. Even if the individual routes (namely CF and the eventual VW) were made better, I would find the game worse overall for such a shocking oversight.

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It's difficult to cut anything from the game as is, as every route has a pretty good reason for existing. SS could maybe be a candidate if siding with Edelgard wasn't framed as such a contentious choice, I suppose, but that's about it. Trashing VW in particular could only be a good idea if the Alliance was scrapped as well(or at least greatly minimized).
Otherwise, making any of the three lords routes dlc would greatly undermine the premise of the game(and would probably have been received very poorly after Fates) so I don't think that's a good idea either.

... this thread reminded me that VW gets progressively less and less credit from the community as time goes on, and I think that's a shame. I'll spare you the wall of text, though. Maybe.

Edited by Cysx

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Late to the convo but I'm also against this... now yes, VW could have been done a lot better. All of the alliance, Almyra and Claude feel underutilized and that sucks but it at least has the semblance of being unique in concept. Going with a third party, led by an outsider to the entire conflict with his own entirely separate set of issues sounds awesome.

The way things turned out was underwhelming, as well as cut Claude at the knees as a character, considering the heart of his issues can't be given as much detail considering the setting as they should be but it's still more interesting to me than another route where you're against Edelgard when Dimitri's route is basically already the epitome of that viewpoint.\

Byleth just can't carry a story by themselves even with the tighter narrative.

I ultimately just find VW infinitely the more unique endeavor and value it a lot more than SS as a result.

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On 5/10/2020 at 5:26 PM, haarhaarhaar said:

I originally figured that if the choice were between the game as-is and DLC-locking VW to improve the other routes, then I'd go with the latter. But now I wonder if the route that should have been DLC-locked (if a route had to be delayed to improve quality) was CF. If CF had been released in a slightly more complete form, with Jeritza fully integrated into the game, and a couple of TWSITD chapters after Rhea, then that would be amazing value - a bit longer than CS, while being a main story route with a new perspective. It would have been an extremely ballsy switch to pull given the insane hype for Edelgard, but having your lord unavoidably become your enemy in the Black Eagles route (before DLC) is the kind of formula-breaking twist that would have made SS genuinely emotionally heavy. Delaying CF would have also made the dichotomy of Edelgard/Rhea (and the Edelgard/Dimitri conflict) much more powerful, as well as preventing many players from playing CF first (which is a bit of a head-scratcher plot wise on your first playthrough).

SS has plenty of other weaknesses anyway, and my criticism about VW needing to have been significantly different from SS still stands, but if a route needed to be delayed as DLC to make the others better, CF seems like a better choice than the rest. 

Gods no. Yes I think its clear that cf needed more time but SS is so flawed as a concept that its clearly the route that needs to go.  I have made some of my thoughts known already in this thread but I think this post also does a good job of stating the problems of SS for me. I agree with this post alot

 

10 hours ago, mrwanton said:

The way things turned out was underwhelming, as well as cut Claude at the knees as a character, considering the heart of his issues can't be given as much detail considering the setting as they should be but it's still more interesting to me than another route where you're against Edelgard when Dimitri's route is basically already the epitome of that viewpoint.\

Byleth just can't carry a story by themselves even with the tighter narrative.

And I also think it would lead to more problems then solutions in regards to irl situations for IS.  Locking any of the three main lords behind dlc is not just disaster waiting to happen but also not going to sell very well with your audience on being patient so still probably leads to rushing. Look at how the game was presented before the release and how much marketing went into all three of the main lords.  Its beyond a waste of potential to not fully utilize all three of them from day 1 of the game.  No matter which lord is locked behind the dlc there would be a ton of backlash for not letting us play as one of the three most marketed charcters path. The only real feasible solutions to me are cut SS or they should have delayed the main game release even longer.  I am actually on team both of those options tbh but still think three houses is my favorite fe.

Edited by vikingsfan92

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The point you make about it being a terrible idea to hold back any of the three lords is a fair one - if CF had been held back lots of people would have claimed that IS mis-sold the game by putting so much into Edelgard, although it could also have been interpreted as a marketing tactic to make her betrayal less obvious/more surprising to the gamer. Still, if IS were to make a route with a main lord and then pay-lock it (as opposed to free DLC) it would be its own outrage, except for the people who were always going to buy the pass I guess.

I would also echo the sentiment that a lot of commenters have had that VW was just more fun than SS - you have a bigger class to play with, an interesting lord etc etc, but I think its advantages are all problems of execution rather than concept. AM and SS are the more traditional-style routes for FE games, and an imaginable alternate SS, where Byleth goes to rescue Rhea early in Part 2, gets playable Rhea, and helps Dimitri and Claude on the way to beating Edelgard/TWSITD/Nemesis, would have various parallels in a ton of other FE titles. More could be done with the SS story than my above unoriginal take, but my point is just that the FE makers already had a decent blueprint for SS and so they could have innovated more for the other routes. In my opinion, if the story of SS was planned to be exactly as it was in the game then SS was already screwed, independent of everything else. The ideas behind SS, which were motivating its inclusion, still work though.

SS had the largest gap between what it was and what it should have been, and it definitely needed to be much more different from VW, and AM too. But I think it does make sense conceptually, at least enough to want it done properly and in the game from day 1.

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1 hour ago, haarhaarhaar said:

Still, if IS were to make a route with a main lord and then pay-lock it (as opposed to free DLC) it would be its own outrage, except for the people who were always going to buy the pass I guess.

I was very much making my point on the assumption that it would be a free dlc as I think any other option is a pr disaster.  I also don't think the cover tactic for plot reasons really is a valid excuse either.  The game needs to stand on it own and every route offers more than SS does.  Also it kind of opens up logistical problems like why even bother have the main lord playable in the first place.  People go out of there way to bench Orson when you can play as him in FE8 because you gain nothing other than a slight time savings for using him. And having any of the most marketed before release character become a  bench warmer for the same reason as Orson (not being permanent units) after the first run is not a good look not even if it is a temporary thing imo.

Edited by vikingsfan92

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If you want to make any route into  DLC then CF is the obvious choice. CF is already the only route that isn't unlocked by default at the start of the game, so it's the only route that could really work. The game already forces you to side against Edelgard if you don't fill the special requirements so making it into dlc wouldn't actually change things.  CF is also the only route that I feel would be compelling enough as a separate dlc due to how drasticaly different it is from the other routes. Imagine people getting used to the story beats and characterizations of the existing three routes and then a trailer drops that showcases Byleth siding with the empire, the Church of Seiros as enemies, Dedue transforming into a Demonic Beast, a Dimitri that didn't go berserk, a Rhea who has gone completely bonkers and Bernadetta outside of her room? The hype would go absolutely through the roof.

This would not just give more time to the obviously underdeveloped parts of CF, but also free up development time to improve the other routes. I feel SS would have been acceptable as the only BE route before DLC if AM and VW had been more differenitated from it and it had given more focus on the conflict between Byleth and Edelgard.

Edited by Druplesnubb

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In fact, CF already feels like a DLC route. Everything from the extra requirements to unlocking it, how radically different it is to the other three fairly uniform routes to its shorter length feels like something you'd expect from a route that was made and sold separately from the base game.

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4 hours ago, Druplesnubb said:

This would not just give more time to the obviously underdeveloped parts of CF, but also free up development time to improve the other routes. I feel SS would have been acceptable as the only BE route before DLC if AM and VW had been more differenitated from it and it had given more focus on the conflict between Byleth and Edelgard.

Possibly. Silver Snow would need a bit more than just more unique chapters though. By design, the route strips away the BE exclusive characters midgame while offering as compensation content (the church guys) the other routes already get while not having to lose anything, so I simply can't see anyone (BE fans in particular) being happy with that.

Another thing: knowing how ISIS do their stuff, for them to go the "Crimson Flower as DLC" route they would most likely need to share that info waaaaaaay in advance, similar to how they announced back with Fates how there would be paid DLC for a third route. Otherwise, if Edelgard's route didn't make it during development, I find very unlikely ISIS would've added it later post launch just like that.

Also IMO CF having few chapters is gonna be a very contested matter regardless if it ws sold as DLC or not.

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20 hours ago, Druplesnubb said:

If you want to make any route into  DLC then CF is the obvious choice. CF is already the only route that isn't unlocked by default at the start of the game, so it's the only route that could really work. The game already forces you to side against Edelgard if you don't fill the special requirements so making it into dlc wouldn't actually change things.  CF is also the only route that I feel would be compelling enough as a separate dlc due to how drasticaly different it is from the other routes. Imagine people getting used to the story beats and characterizations of the existing three routes and then a trailer drops that showcases Byleth siding with the empire, the Church of Seiros as enemies, Dedue transforming into a Demonic Beast, a Dimitri that didn't go berserk, a Rhea who has gone completely bonkers and Bernadetta outside of her room? The hype would go absolutely through the roof.

This would not just give more time to the obviously underdeveloped parts of CF, but also free up development time to improve the other routes. I feel SS would have been acceptable as the only BE route before DLC if AM and VW had been more differenitated from it and it had given more focus on the conflict between Byleth and Edelgard.

On the one hand I kind of agree with you, CF would probably generate quite a lot of hype as a DLC route.

On the other hand, my feeling is that if CF had been absent from day 1, this game does not get anywhere near the positive reception it currently has.

-Edelgard as a lord now feels like a bait and switch, which would generate bad feelings. We'd get an extra large dose of those bad feelings because she is the only female lord, so anyone who chose her for that reason now gets to gnash their teeth as somehow a male character ends up in the closest thing Silver Snow has to a spotlight.

-The game, billed as having three routes, is now revealed for those three routes differing by at most two maps each.

-For anyone who finds themselves siding ideologically more with Edelgard than Rhea (and believe me, there are a lot of us), being forced down Silver Snow would feel awful.

-Silver Snow already has a very poor reception, but this doesn't bring the game down because the people who would dislike it most usually don't do it as a first playthrough. If many of us did, though... yeah, I don't think it'd be pretty.

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39 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

On the one hand I kind of agree with you, CF would probably generate quite a lot of hype as a DLC route.

On the other hand, my feeling is that if CF had been absent from day 1, this game does not get anywhere near the positive reception it currently has.

-Edelgard as a lord now feels like a bait and switch, which would generate bad feelings. We'd get an extra large dose of those bad feelings because she is the only female lord, so anyone who chose her for that reason now gets to gnash their teeth as somehow a male character ends up in the closest thing Silver Snow has to a spotlight.

-The game, billed as having three routes, is now revealed for those three routes differing by at most two maps each.

-For anyone who finds themselves siding ideologically more with Edelgard than Rhea (and believe me, there are a lot of us), being forced down Silver Snow would feel awful.

-Silver Snow already has a very poor reception, but this doesn't bring the game down because the people who would dislike it most usually don't do it as a first playthrough. If many of us did, though... yeah, I don't think it'd be pretty.

Not to mention that:

-Hubert and Edelgard get benched eternally until the dlc drops and having a main lord being benched feels horrible. Even more so when its one of the first character they showed to the public.  And if you are benching the two unique characters that have zero playtime in other routes what is the point of a BE route at all? AM and VW get all the SS characters so its not like you get new characters.

- Continuing off the last point any advice or strategy guide for the game will be filled with suggestions not to use Edelgard and Hubert with no way around it. And if you use Edelgard because you like her alot or she is just putting in work for you since she has good stats your time spent goes into a void with no ways around it. This is significantly different from a guide telling you a unit is bad because at least units the guide maker says doesn't preform that well can use stat boosters and change of tactics to get around have a way to be useful even if it requires work.

- I also feel the bait feeling and the other irl problems can't be understated for how much problems they would cause.  They are big deals that can kill enjoyment of the game on launch for people (like me) and how the game launches is a big deal.

Edited by vikingsfan92

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If between all 4 routes I’d take a SS rework over VW rework anyday and if made dlc even better 

i actually think some changes to both VW and SS would work well for this and here are what I would change 

Spoiler

swap VW and SSs final bosses . Rhea being final boss in VW makes more sense than nemesis . This would also allow Rhea to be a lord in her own story which brings my next change

 

have Rhea not captures in SS route . Rhea being a lord would of brought so much more to this route and make it a little bit special . I know that Seteth does a good job at this but  having Rhea as well would only make  it better . I also believe less students from crimson route should automatically start in the faction at the beginning . Prehaps you can recruit them later  but maybe 1 or 2 of them coming to help (If players have the wolves dlc too prehaps they also come and help in that first mission) and the focus being entirely on staff members . They need the most focus 

Edited by MasterSlayerX

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