Who's worse, Those Who Slither In The Dark or Team Garon?

[Gregster101]

Three Houses has been out for a long time at this point, and for all the praises that it gets, everyone seems to be in agreement that Those Who Slither In The Dark are really crappy villains. However, one thing that has me curious is if people consider them better or worse than Garon, Iago, and Hans from Fates, seeing as how they're also considered very crappy villains by most fans. What do you guys think? Between the slitherers and Team Garon, who do you think is worse at the end of the day? Personally I consider Team Garon to be worse villains than the slitherers, but I'm curious as to what you guys have to say.

Edited May 5, 2020 by Gregster101

[CatManThree]

The Agarthan's aren't crappy, they are just handled strangely. Also a lot of their interesting aspects are hidden behind lore some of which comes from vague information provided by the Shadow Library.

Garon is just a fuckin meme, 

[Ottservia]

I voted the agarthians because at least Garon, Iago, and Hans have some kind of stage presence and a good design. The agarthans can’t even get that right

[Crysta]

As a concept the evil cult is a cliche' that Fire Emblem can really do away with.

But the laughably evil king, his advisor, and his two-bit goon(s) are even less interesting and overplayed in fantasy media in general.

[Gregster101]

5 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

I voted the agarthians because at least Garon, Iago, and Hans have some kind of stage presence and a good design. The agarthans can’t even get that right

Garon and Iago's designs maybe, but I really don't think Hans' design is very memorable at all, considering he's literally just a generic bandit that they somehow decided to make a major villain. I have more memories of Batta the Beast from FE7 than I have of Hans, and that should tell you something.

[Azz]

Garon is way worse. TWSITD were extremely mishandled, however, at least they had a history and a modicum of lore in comparison to anything Garon, Iago or Hans had. The only thing I would give them over TWSITD is Garon and Iago's designs (even then Garon and Thales are pretty similar).

[The Roger The Paladin]

May as well ask me whether I'd prefer to eat roadkill or out of the dumpster.

However, if I had to choose, I'd point out that a lot of the criticism of Fates' story has been directed at the fact they full blown copped out by having an invisible third kingdom be responsible for the whole damn war instead of giving anyone culpability. Which takes away from Garon et and co. The Agarthans essentially serve a similar function as the Vallites, taking a shades of grey war and injecting a damn black and white villainous faction into it. As such, rather than adding to Three Houses, they weaken it. I can't say the same about Garon with Fates because... well, look at it. The whole Valla thing did a better job of screwing shit up than Garon could hope to. So in terms of damage to the story, by virtue of having more to damage, the Agarthans win... or in this case lose.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Getting the "both suck" out of the way, the Agarthians are worse to me. I can think of three reasons why:

1. Garon is almost certainly the best character of the bunch. Yeah, he himself is bad, but the way his children react to him is pretty real to how children of a highly abusive father figure react, and I can appreciate that.

2. Iago's voice acting/panache/general ability to chew scenery is more fun than Solon or Thales' blathering, even if they all have about equally negative character worth.

3. Three Houses is largely a story about nuanced characters where everyone has a point and is believable. Except the Agarthians, whom the game seems to believe are just Pure Evil and worthy of genocide. It's more jarring. Alternatively, I'm saying the Agarthians feel worse because 3H's story is otherwise better. Or, see the point made by the poster just above me.

[vanguard333]

In terms of character writing, TWSITD have the edge as antagonists because at least their motivations make more sense and aren't something stupid like, "I'm possessed by a senile dragon to destroy the world while twirling my moustache". And Iago and Hans were extremely forgettable. 

In terms of how the plot handles them, both are terrible. TWSITD stand out more in terms of badness because Fates' plot is a sea of garbage. 

[Etrurian emperor]

Taken in a vacuum they are about the same. Both factions are boring, incompetent and just evil for the sake of being evil. 

However in the grand of scheme Garon is so much worse. The Slitherers might be terrible but they are terrible in isolation and they don't take away from anyone. Garon on the other hand is so terrible that he infects everything. Almost every flaw in the story of Fates can be traced back to Garon being cartoonishly evil in a story that desperately requires him NOT to be cartoonishly evil. Xander comes so much worse because the dad he insist can't be evil is undeniably and irredeemably evil, Garon's presence makes the moral conflict between Nohr and Hoshido inherently one sided in Hoshido's favor and even minor characters like Arthur have their supposed nobility tainted by fighting for someone they know is a complete monster. All Garon does is take things away from the story. Grey morality can't be present as long as Garon remains part of the plot, Nohr can't be an interesting nation when its poverty is completely overshadowed by Garon just being really evil and Xander can't be noble while he's devoted to Garon. 

In contrast the Slitherers really don't damage anything else with their terribly villainy because you're never supposed to side with them and no character comes off as an idiot by insisting they are good people. Them being terrible doesn't cost Byleth or Edelgard anything. 

[Gregster101]

5 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Taken in a vacuum they are about the same. Both factions are boring, incompetent and just evil for the sake of being evil. 

However in the grand of scheme Garon is so much worse. The Slitherers might be terrible but they are terrible in isolation and they don't take away from anyone. Garon on the other hand is so terrible that he infects everything. Almost every flaw in the story of Fates can be traced back to Garon being cartoonishly evil in a story that desperately requires him NOT to be cartoonishly evil. Xander comes so much worse because the dad he insist can't be evil is undeniably and irredeemably evil, Garon's presence makes the moral conflict between Nohr and Hoshido inherently one sided in Hoshido's favor and even minor characters like Arthur have their supposed nobility tainted by fighting for someone they know is a complete monster. All Garon does is take things away from the story. Grey morality can't be present as long as Garon remains part of the plot, Nohr can't be an interesting nation when its poverty is completely overshadowed by Garon just being really evil and Xander can't be noble while he's devoted to Garon. 

In contrast the Slitherers really don't damage anything else with their terribly villainy because you're never supposed to side with them and no character comes off as an idiot by insisting they are good people. Them being terrible doesn't cost Byleth or Edelgard anything. 

I can agree with this. It's only briefly mentioned in Birthright that conquering other nations is a necessity for obtaining more resources, but having someone like Garon as well as Iago and Hans calling the shots still crumples any attempt for the story to avoid black and white morality.

[Icelerate]

What does Garon have anything to do with Three Houses? You should post this in the general forums, not Three Houses forum. 

[SSbardock84]

Those who slither in the dark probably. It's been a long time since I've played Fates though. But I don't remember if they did as bad as stuff.

[Gregster101]

Just now, Icelerate said:

What does Garon have anything to do with Three Houses? You should post this in the general forums, not Three Houses forum. 

How do I move this to General out of curiosity? I'd appreciate knowing something like this for future reference

[Icelerate]

1 minute ago, Gregster101 said:

How do I move this to General out of curiosity? I'd appreciate knowing something like this for future reference

I don't know. I was thinking about posting about whether evil villains are truly inferior to morally grey ones but I can't speak about Fates as I have not played it but what do you think about evil villains such as in RD? I think Jarod, Ludveck and Lekain are very well-written villains compared to most in the series. 

[Gregster101]

1 minute ago, Icelerate said:

I don't know. I was thinking about posting about whether evil villains are truly inferior to morally grey ones but I can't speak about Fates as I have not played it but what do you think about evil villains such as in RD? I think Jarod, Ludveck and Lekain are very well-written villains compared to most in the series. 

Jarod's a pretty good starter villain for the beginning of the game, Ludveck makes an okay antagonist for Elincia in Part 2, and Lekain is workable compared to Team Garon and the Slitherers.

[haarhaarhaar]

24 minutes ago, Icelerate said:

I think Jarod, Ludveck and Lekain are very well-written villains compared to most in the series

Agreed, and I think they're as true to life as you could expect from a fantasy game when it comes to the themes of empire, racial profiteering and populism.

EDIT: An issue with TWSITD is that their plot arcs never really engage with the issue of classism that lies at the heart of 3H. Even their racism isn't that relevant to Claude's route, only really to Dedue (though on the whole racism could have been done better across 3H as well). I suppose other characters do more work on that front, but as said above it's disappointing to have such simplistic evil in a game that's all about nuance.

Edited May 4, 2020 by haarhaarhaar

[eclipse]

57 minutes ago, Gregster101 said:

How do I move this to General out of curiosity? I'd appreciate knowing something like this for future reference

Report the first post and politely ask us to move it elsewhere.  Which I'll do after I'm done replying.

1. If you're going to argue with people about their choices, I'm going to close this topic.  That's not the point of a poll.
2. Agarthians don't fit the world of nuance, so I'm going with them.  Garon may be stupidly evil, but it fits the general tone of Fates' story.

[Gregster101]

Just now, eclipse said:

Report the first post and politely ask us to move it elsewhere.  Which I'll do after I'm done replying.

1. If you're going to argue with people about their choices, I'm going to close this topic.  That's not the point of a poll.
2. Agarthians don't fit the world of nuance, so I'm going with them.  Garon may be stupidly evil, but it fits the general tone of Fates' story.

Thanks.

I didn't mean to come off as arguing with some of the others about their choices, so if I did, my apologies.

And fair enough.

[Alastor15243]

My vote's for Those Who Slither due to wasted potential. It would have been hilariously trivial to make them do almost all of the same things while remaining sympathetic if they didn't go out of their way to turn them into monsters in the backstory to excuse Sothis, Rhea and co. of any accusations of interstellar imperialistic aggression.

The Agarthans were a proud and advanced nation whose planet was invaded by dragons, and now fast forward to today and the dragons demand to be worshipped as gods, Agartha's entire culture has been eradicated along with all knowledge of their technology, and the human race has essentially been turned into the credulous pawns of a theocracy, worshipping "gods" who they think created the world that they actually just stole.

And yet they still managed to write TWS as cartoonishly evil enough to make them unsympathetic. Imagine if they had been willing to make Sothis just a little bit morally unjustified.

Edited May 4, 2020 by Alastor15243

[Strullemia]

TWSITD don't add to 3H and certainly don't improve it but Garon is one of the reasons Fates is such an awful story. 3H still has other things in the story to fall back on because -for better or worse- TWISTD don't have as big of a presence in 3H as Garon does in Fates.

So I guess Garon's worse but both are wasted potential.

Edited May 4, 2020 by Strullemia

[Perkilator]

To give TWSITD credit, they DID help forge the Heroes’ Relics using the corpses of the goddess’s children. Granted, Nemesis was responsible for the slaughter AND the forging happened after, but I’ll take it over how Garon’s actually a clone from the 3rd kingdom.

[UNLEASH IT]

Garon and his cronies don't get offscreened in any route of Fates so I'd have to say that the Slitherers are worse. And even when you do fight them, it's just a matter of walking right up to their base and kicking their shit in. For a group that managed to infiltrate the governing bodies of almost every country in Fodlan, they go down surprisingly easily.

Edited May 4, 2020 by UNLEASH IT

[ZeManaphy]

TWSID make a lot more sense in the plot overall, but its very disappointing that Shambala appears for one chapter and is blown off the very end, never to be heard of. That would be like if Corrin and gang went to Valla only for one chapter to defeat Anankos, and the place gets blown up after. There should have been several chapters where you fight into Shambala territory and during those invasions you learn more. Fates Definitely handled the "secret villain" much better than 3 Houses. 

[Etrurian emperor]

6 hours ago, ZeManaphy said:

TWSID make a lot more sense in the plot overall, but its very disappointing that Shambala appears for one chapter and is blown off the very end, never to be heard of. That would be like if Corrin and gang went to Valla only for one chapter to defeat Anankos, and the place gets blown up after. There should have been several chapters where you fight into Shambala territory and during those invasions you learn more. Fates Definitely handled the "secret villain" much better than 3 Houses. 

I think its a matter of their power within the lore. Anankos is an all powerful, if senile god dragon who rules an entire secret world. The Agarthans are just a bunch of crazy mole people squatting in a cave that only has single city with it. Despite all their tech Slitheres are just bitter tiny men in their little cave and the game doesn't pretend they are anything else. One city full of crazy people should fall quick enough if the rule of an entire continent decides to march against it. 

Edited May 5, 2020 by Etrurian emperor