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New Heroes Arrive! Dark Burdens (May 8th)


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6 minutes ago, Sunwoo said:

"Game balance" is the reason they gave for not dropping any of the Fallen Heroes, which sounds pretty bullshit when they also refuse to drop old outdated 5-star units from launch day.

Please. The notification clearly says "game balance and character attributes".

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15 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Please. The notification clearly says "game balance and character attributes".

Then just leave it at "character attributes" and don't bring up game balance at all. Balance has been out the window for a very long time and I still want those demotes. And again, this should've been addressed way back when they first made the announcement anyway.

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10 minutes ago, Sunwoo said:

Then just leave it at "character attributes" and don't bring up game balance at all. Balance has been out the window for a very long time and I still want those demotes.

Game balance being less than absolute perfection is not an excuse to make it worse.

Furthermore, game balance has not been "out the window". The mere existence of power creep is not a sign of imbalance, nor is the mere existence of strong skills or units. Simply stating that balance is "out the window" does not make it so.

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27 minutes ago, Sunwoo said:

Also, it really wouldn't kill them or their bottom line to give their instant demotes some decent skills, you know. This is a problem that they created, that didn't need to be created. People aren't going to suddenly not pull their 5-star units because a 4-star is easier to get. Also, making their 4-stars good with good fodder may give people motivation to, you know, maybe want to pull them more? From what I've seen there are quite a few people who choose to just skip the color with a character they suspect will be demoted. If you make the demote strong, with good skills, people will actually want to pull that color more, which means more orbs spent and the player needing more orbs. I don't see a downside to this in terms of IS's profit.

People might not be satisfied, sure, but that's not an excuse to avoid being transparent. I'm not really fussed about no demote on the fallen banner (or eventual CYL banner), but I am bothered on principle. If IS always intended to not put in demotes on some banners, they should've made that clear to begin with in their announcement instead of having to announce it now separately.

I agree with this so much. The only demote that actually has some use is Forrest as the A slot can be used to help stuff like Temari or to help with Atk opening and similar skills and the C slot is something decent that can be used for high res mages when left with no other option. The rest are mostly bad units or that become irrelevant due to their competition and Marth doesn't fully count as the banner he appeared was a "special" thing for the anniversary and being a seasonal he doesn't matter that much in the long run I believe. Making demotions that can compete with the rest banner units should be what happens (Marth for example for me at least could be called the winner from that banner). Also as you said making the 4*s good doesn't mean people won't pull for the 5*s in fact it gives an incentive to do so as they can get easier +10 units, they can even summon in the future to get said unit.

I wasn't expecting a domote here as fallen banners never get one however if they wanted they could give one. For example Corrin with no trainee BST, Savage Breath, Glimmer, Atk/Spd solo, and Rouse Spd/Def could be a demote. I simply took Null follow up, exchanged his new weapon for an already existing one and kept his A and C slots, just at tier 3 (also the C slot already exists on Ferdinand so it wouldn't matter having it in a powecreep banner at 4* to keep the real prize at 5*) . He would be a really good unit and many more people would pull in blue to grab as many copies of him as he could get to +10 way more easily. Now about CYL, it's better that way as this year's banner will most likely give us 2 free 5* units and it would also be kind of unfair to give to any of these units greater availability or/and worse skills and less optimised statlines because of the demotion especially when all were chosen by the players to receive a fairly similar treatment on that banner. 

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10 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Game balance being less than absolute perfection is not an excuse to make it worse.

Furthermore, game balance has not been "out the window". The mere existence of power creep is not a sign of imbalance, nor is the mere existence of strong skills or units. Simply stating that balance is "out the window" does not make it so.

I don't see how making one of the fallen heroes a demote would make game balance worse. I also don't remember anyone asking them to make tier 4 solo skills or to apparently make m!Corrin have gen 4 trainee BST. They could easily their characters to be good, just not absolutely ridiculous. Besides, no one expects absolute perfection for game balance since absolute perfection is nothing short of impossible, but again ... no one said that but you.

The term I've been hearing is "power sprint" more so than power creep. Sure, I expect a bit of power creep to happen, but it's getting faster and faster and they're making more and more tier 4 skills. Launch units have been powercrept hard, over and over again, and unlike the 3-4 star launch day units the 5-star exclusives cannot be merged easily unless you're a whale, super lucky, or saving hard for specific units. And even then your +10 day 1 unit with +10/+5 dragon flowers and summoner support might only /just barely/ match a +0 unit that just released yesterday. Even if game balance isn't "out the window" I don't think IS actually cares anymore if it means they can push shiny new powerful toys on the player base.

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23 minutes ago, Sunwoo said:

Besides, no one expects absolute perfection for game balance since absolute perfection is nothing short of impossible, but again ... no one said that but you.

No one expects absolute perfection, yet people act like just because the balance isn't perfect, that making the balance worse is somehow acceptable.

 

23 minutes ago, Sunwoo said:

no one said that but you.

And I didn't say that anyone was expecting absolute perfection either. That's on you. Two can play at this game.

 

23 minutes ago, Sunwoo said:

The term I've been hearing is "power sprint" more so than power creep.

Honestly, from my point of view, the power creep is happening at an absolute crawl. There have been no new units or skills lately that have really caught my attention as a must-have beyond Duo Idunn, whose usefulness is entirely in her Duo skill and therefore doesn't even need merges or nature fishing, and characters that I like as characters.

Yeah, things are getting stronger, but people are only looking at the superficial things like "the number of tier 4 skills" or "unit stat totals" without actually putting any thought into whether or not those things actually matter in gameplay. So what if there are more tier 4 skills? Atk/Spd Solo 4 is not any more powerful than the ones that already exist. So what if new Fallen Corrin has 4 more points of stats than old Fallen Corrin? New Fallen Corrin is a worse offensive color and gets 4 fewer points of stats from his weapon.

Sure, launch units are getting more and more outclassed, but those are units from 3 years ago and many of them are still viable. Heck, quite a few are still top of their class.

Edited by Ice Dragon
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1 hour ago, Ice Dragon said:

No one expects absolute perfection, yet people act like just because the balance isn't perfect, that making the balance worse is somehow acceptable.

 

And I didn't say that anyone was expecting absolute perfection either. That's on you. Two can play at this game.

Nice try, but you're the one who brought up absolute perfection first anyway, so that's still on you.

1 hour ago, Ice Dragon said:

Honestly, from my point of view, the power creep is happening at an absolute crawl. There have been no new units or skills lately that have really caught my attention as a must-have beyond Duo Idunn, whose usefulness is entirely in her Duo skill and therefore doesn't even need merges or nature fishing, and characters that I like as characters.

Yeah, things are getting stronger, but people are only looking at the superficial things like "the number of tier 4 skills" or "unit stat totals" without actually putting any thought into whether or not those things actually matter in gameplay. So what if there are more tier 4 skills? Atk/Spd Solo 4 is not any more powerful than the ones that already exist. So what if new Fallen Corrin has 4 more points of stats than old Fallen Corrin? New Fallen Corrin is a worse offensive color and gets 4 fewer points of stats from his weapon.

Sure, launch units are getting more and more outclassed, but those are units from 3 years ago and many of them are still viable. Heck, quite a few are still top of their class.

Great, so if things like "tier 4 skills" and "unit stat totals" are superficial in the long run and don't actually matter in gameplay, then what's wrong dropping some of that down into the lower rarity pool instead of giving us things like OBSTRUCT or BRASH ASSAULT or FORTRESS RES (which is also available on Kempf as a 4-star grail unit and as a seal), which they seem pretty much reluctant to do?

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26 minutes ago, Sunwoo said:

Nice try, but you're the one who brought up absolute perfection first anyway, so that's still on you.

Yeah. For the sake of comparison. Not to express an expectation. You're the one who construed it as an expectation, not me.

 

26 minutes ago, Sunwoo said:

Great, so if things like "tier 4 skills" and "unit stat totals" are superficial in the long run and don't actually matter in gameplay, then what's wrong dropping some of that down into the lower rarity pool

Because just because something doesn't contribute to overall power creep doesn't magically make it eligible to be demoted. Way to employ a false dichotomy.

You're not going to win an argument by just trying to "gotcha" me out of existence.

Edited by Ice Dragon
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1 hour ago, Ice Dragon said:

Yeah. For the sake of comparison. Not to express an expectation. You're the one who construed it as an expectation, not me.

And you're putting words in my mouth by saying that's my expectation to begin with. My original point was that not dropping any of the current fallen heroes as part of "game balance" is a poor reason, I don't actually fucking care about balance when I can beat things perfectly fine with my team of +0 units including launch heroes.

1 hour ago, Ice Dragon said:

Because just because something doesn't contribute to overall power creep doesn't magically make it eligible to be demoted. Way to employ a false dichotomy.

You're not going to win an argument by just trying to "gotcha" me out of existence.

Well maybe they should reconsider what makes something eligible to be demoted, or at least stop putting objectively shit fodder like obstruct on demotes or freebies. I'm not exactly asking for a tier 4 skill, but when we're already pushing swift sparrow 3 and sturdy impact I think it's fair enough to ask for things like swift sparrow and sturdy blow 2 as a 4-star unlock.

Also, do you really think I'm trying to "win" an argument? I'm not trying to "win" anything, I'm expressing my opinions and I'm continuing to argue with you because I very strongly disagree with yours. If this is how you see things, that every argument is something to "win" and not a chance to gain some new perspective and see why other people may not see things the way you do, then you're the one who's already lost.

I know someone kind of like you in real life. He's a cool guy and a friend, but man does he think he knows more than he does and draws all sorts of erroneous conclusions about our other friends. Doesn't particularly like to listen to other people's perspectives, refuses to see it from our side even if he's literally the only one with his viewpoint, clashes the most in personality with our group. You guys seem to view an argument as having to be "right" when an argument should never be about being "right" but to understand why people may disagree with you or if there's some perspective they have that you didn't see before that someone else may have brought up. Honestly, the fact that you think I'm just trying to "win an argument" makes you sound like you're eight.

Edited by Sunwoo
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1 hour ago, Sunwoo said:

Great, so if things like "tier 4 skills" and "unit stat totals" are superficial in the long run and don't actually matter in gameplay, then what's wrong dropping some of that down into the lower rarity pool instead of giving us things like OBSTRUCT or BRASH ASSAULT or FORTRESS RES (which is also available on Kempf as a 4-star grail unit and as a seal), which they seem pretty much reluctant to do?

Because being superficial in the long run doesn’t mean people won’t spend trying to get them. The same hysteria that causes people to label any shiny new thing as “power sprint” makes them think they need to have it at any cost. Plenty of premium skills have been dropped down and they will continue to drop premium skills at the rate of whenever they feel like it. 

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I will say this regarding the whole "Gen 1 Premium Units still haven't been demoted" thing. I've accepted the fact that it's never happening and everyone should as well. They're not going to set a precedent that says that a Premium unit will eventually get demoted, as that's a pretty bad move, business wise, on a gacha game. Moving them to non-New Unit Banners was probably the best thing they could have done without demoting them.

I think a good compromise would be to let you buy those units with Grails, but as a one-time deal per unit, and of course they would be more expensive than regular Grail Units.

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5 hours ago, bottlegnomes said:

I'm totally with you. Heck, this banner as a whole is the worst of the fallen banners by a fairly large margin IMO. Corrin is just straight-up F!Corrin from last year but other gender. I get that it's so the fans of the character can have both, but it still seems so bland. Same for Robin back in the day. Julia I get conceptually, but the possession arc for her was so minor and she always seemed more of an emotionless "go kill them" bot in the game to me, so having her the way she is seems a bit odd. Even Celica, whom I wasn't a huge fan of at the time either, had more basis to me since she was an alternate "what if Celica had become a witch" take on her. A fun one, unless I'm an idiot and that's what they were going for, would've been what if Julia had been Loptyr's host. Ike, as said, I'm with you on. It makes sense on some level, but just why? It doesn't help that his stats make no sense for RD Ike while they'd make some level of sense for either PoR Ike or Greil.

Lyon is definitely a good fit, though I'm not too huge on him, and Ashnard is the highlight for me by a very large margin. Plus he's pretty solid even if not as broken as I would've liked him to be.

Bertram could've been another fun possessed unit, but he's nowhere near popular enough. He even has the whole creepy vibe built into his character. And while it would've been a revamp of the source material, any of the FE5 dead lords could've been kind of cool. Admittedly, they'd be in the same spot as Julia, but at least it could've been new characters for the most part. I'm blanking on other good possession options at the moment.

We're discussing other options on this thread here.

There's quite a few. The one I think I'd like to see most is Fallen Gunter, but only if he gives us the unique opportunity to be a mounted breath unit. Morva is another one who'd be pretty sweet to see especially since a Fallen version is basically the only version we should really see of him in the game given we never see his non zombie state (though I guess we could assume it looks pretty similar to Myrrh, still his Zombie form alone would be good enough for me).

16 minutes ago, Jave said:

I will say this regarding the whole "Gen 1 Premium Units still haven't been demoted" thing. I've accepted the fact that it's never happening and everyone should as well. They're not going to set a precedent that says that a Premium unit will eventually get demoted, as that's a pretty bad move, business wise, on a gacha game. Moving them to non-New Unit Banners was probably the best thing they could have done without demoting them.

I think a good compromise would be to let you buy those units with Grails, but as a one-time deal per unit, and of course they would be more expensive than regular Grail Units.

I don't know if it 's that bad a business move. If someone is willing to wait three years and multiple revival banners for a unit to eventually dropped, then they probably weren't all that interested in pulling for that character to begin with.

Edited by Jotari
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1 hour ago, Sunwoo said:

And you're putting words in my mouth by saying that's my expectation to begin with. My original point was that not dropping any of the current fallen heroes as part of "game balance" is a poor reason, I don't actually fucking care about balance when I can beat things perfectly fine with my team of +0 units including launch heroes.

Game balance, the black hole of any argument! 

Seriously, with so many units, balance isnt going to be a thing.

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8 minutes ago, lightcosmo said:

Game balance, the black hole of any argument! 

Seriously, with so many units, balance isnt going to be a thing.

I think the issue is that the devs mentioned it in the first place. 

 

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. . .okay, so we have bigger numbers and faster skills.  I think this matters more for PvP than PvE (the latter is still being shot down by my Leon).  Which is to be expected.

So. . .which do you value more?  PvP or PvE?  And how much does that PvP split matter?

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2 hours ago, eclipse said:

. . .okay, so we have bigger numbers and faster skills.  I think this matters more for PvP than PvE (the latter is still being shot down by my Leon).  Which is to be expected.

So. . .which do you value more?  PvP or PvE?  And how much does that PvP split matter?

For me this has nothing to do with that. For me its a simple fact of sketchiness. They promised something roughly 3 months ago and now went back on their word with a silly excuse that holds no merit when you consider everything they have been doing (or NOT doing).

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Never for one second believed that the 4* focus would extend to special themes like Fallen and CYL, glad I was correct. Lyon was my priority, but no dice in the ticket circles.

Quite pleased with the outcome tbh, since both 'no demote' and junk-tier stuff like Ferdinand/Forrest mean my orbs are safe for long-term goals.

I would hope that the Young Marth's insane power was just an anomaly, an 'Anniversary Present' for those who shelled out the cheap 300~800 orbs to +10 him. Very sad he had to come when I'm saving for something big, so I'll probably never get a copy of him of my own to abuse.

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11 hours ago, Hilda said:

For me this has nothing to do with that. For me its a simple fact of sketchiness. They promised something roughly 3 months ago and now went back on their word with a silly excuse that holds no merit when you consider everything they have been doing (or NOT doing).

If that's how you feel, go for it.  I, for one, will vote with my wallet.  It makes their playerbase metric look better, but it does nothing for their profit margin.

4 hours ago, Azuni said:

Never for one second believed that the 4* focus would extend to special themes like Fallen and CYL, glad I was correct. Lyon was my priority, but no dice in the ticket circles.

Quite pleased with the outcome tbh, since both 'no demote' and junk-tier stuff like Ferdinand/Forrest mean my orbs are safe for long-term goals.

I would hope that the Young Marth's insane power was just an anomaly, an 'Anniversary Present' for those who shelled out the cheap 300~800 orbs to +10 him. Very sad he had to come when I'm saving for something big, so I'll probably never get a copy of him of my own to abuse.

Like all other seasonal heroes, he'll be back!  Not sure if you can afford to dip a bit, but this is the best time to pull Mar-Mar!

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22 minutes ago, eclipse said:

If that's how you feel, go for it.  I, for one, will vote with my wallet.  It makes their playerbase metric look better, but it does nothing for their profit margin.

Like all other seasonal heroes, he'll be back!  Not sure if you can afford to dip a bit, but this is the best time to pull Mar-Mar!

I wonder if he'll still be available at 4* when he gets rerun. I'm guessing yes, but I've been picking up a copy of all the 4* seasonals on the first run just to be safe. They only cost like 30 orbs each, so it's been pretty easy even while I'm saving up for other stuff.

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Well, I was just as I imagined, the Banners that designed units as powerful completely on purporse (Brave Heroes and Fallen Heroes) are absent from the 4 Star Focus thing because of the gameplay and character traits.

It really makes sense; you can't really drop someone to the lower pools because they're all designed to be powerful desireable units, and the alternative (making one of the banner units clearly the dude skill wise), then people will complain about favoritism or shafting or something.

Poor Dark Celica BTW, I hope she gets a refine at least as good as Base Celica's.

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JFC on the salt regarding no demotes on the Fallen banner. BOTH Fallen banners from 2018 and 2019 had ZERO demotes. There's hardly any reason to expect anything different from this banner. I mean, are players expecting a CYL4 unit to demote for this year's CYL banner?

The bright side is that the GHB unit isn't really shafted at all -- Fallen GHB units as of 2020 always come with a Prf with Fallen Ashnard getting an extremely good one and having a functional statline, especially after seeing several lousy to meh GHB units.

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2 hours ago, Troykv said:

Well, I was just as I imagined, the Banners that designed units as powerful completely on purporse (Brave Heroes and Fallen Heroes) are absent from the 4 Star Focus thing because of the gameplay and character traits.

It really makes sense; you can't really drop someone to the lower pools because they're all designed to be powerful desireable units, and the alternative (making one of the banner units clearly the dude skill wise), then people will complain about favoritism or shafting or something.

Poor Dark Celica BTW, I hope she gets a refine at least as good as Base Celica's.

you know the other possiblity, as i have covered, would have been to introduce a 5. 3-4 Star unit (like thy did somewhile ago) OR drop all the Fallen season 1 units down to 3-4 Stars, since those wont hurt the quote-with-fingers "game balance" they are trying to keep.

Or you know "game balance" wise ALL those Gen1 5 stars should be kept 5 Star exklusiv because they are so broken and offer such good value as skill inheritance units *roll-eyes*.
There is alot of things IS could have done... but they chose to leave a bad taste!

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38 minutes ago, Hilda said:

you know the other possiblity, as i have covered, would have been to introduce a 5. 3-4 Star unit (like thy did somewhile ago) OR drop all the Fallen season 1 units down to 3-4 Stars, since those wont hurt the quote-with-fingers "game balance" they are trying to keep.

Or you know "game balance" wise ALL those Gen1 5 stars should be kept 5 Star exklusiv because they are so broken and offer such good value as skill inheritance units *roll-eyes*.
There is alot of things IS could have done... but they chose to leave a bad taste!

The original Fallen units include Bold Fighter and Vengeful Fighter, they're not going to let those anywhere near the demote pool anytime soon. On top of the precedent any demotes from 5* would set.

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22 minutes ago, Othin said:

The original Fallen units include Bold Fighter and Vengeful Fighter, they're not going to let those anywhere near the demote pool anytime soon. On top of the precedent any demotes from 5* would set.

They could get away with demoting Fallen Celica (and they honestly should but of course won't) since she has aged very poorly compared to Fallen Mareeta, let alone Fallen Ike.

But yeah, M!Grima and Hardin aren't ever going anywhere.

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5 minutes ago, Tybrosion said:

They could get away with demoting Fallen Celica (and they honestly should but of course won't) since she has aged very poorly compared to Fallen Mareeta, let alone Fallen Ike.

But yeah, M!Grima and Hardin aren't ever going anywhere.

Yeah, Celica is the oddball. At this point she looks about as fitting at 5* as half the Gen 1 5* pool.

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