Hanes Posted May 14, 2020 Share Posted May 14, 2020 (edited) 56 minutes ago, Vicious Sal said: I have no idea what that is. souls of the Forest is a gameplay-oriented FE romhack that has high HP units with low defense to make interesting gameplay Edited May 14, 2020 by This boi uses Nino Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vicious Sal Posted May 14, 2020 Share Posted May 14, 2020 5 hours ago, This boi uses Nino said: souls of the Forest is a gameplay-oriented FE romhack that has high HP units with low defense to make interesting gameplay Neat. I hope people like the project. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hanes Posted May 14, 2020 Share Posted May 14, 2020 2 minutes ago, Vicious Sal said: Neat. I hope people like the project. It's quite tough, but fun! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Callie Posted May 15, 2020 Share Posted May 15, 2020 On 5/14/2020 at 4:37 AM, Vicious Sal said: Higher Hp and Lower defense/resistance creates more interesting gameplay. Once you have a tank with 40 def/res and every enemy just tings your tank, it's just throw him in and everything dies. Higher Hp lower defenses means tanks can still tank, but positioning requires more thought since they are still able to die. Goes for enemies and allies in Fire Emblem. This. A solo tank often take "NO DAMAGE" ? That would ruin a strategy game Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mangasdeouf Posted May 15, 2020 Author Share Posted May 15, 2020 Well in my book units like knights should have capped def/HP and knight killing weapons should have a big damage multiplier on armors so they would kill them in 1 hit, or mages would have effective damage against armors. Why? Because a knight on a battlefield is slow, half-blind with his helm, but the only way to take him down is to capture him or hit him with some hammer, the guard of the sword, a blunt weapon or some hybrid weapon like the Morgenstern (morning star) that is a blunt weapon with spikes so that the armor get dented and the knight has to remove it or he will be handicapped (painful breath, armor penetrating the body). Capturing them is easy if you can take them from their blind spot (which is huge) and immobilize them. But taking a knight 1 on 1 with a front attack is never a good idea and arrows are not very effective either unless they hit the tiny holes in the armor like the armpits, the spot behind the knees and if it is accessible the spot in the inner elbow, and finally the holes for vision in the helm. Good luck taking that. All that is to tell that knights have to be the sturdier class in a medieval game. They also have to be slow and not too mobile (but they could use a mount with the dismount option for better combat). But bak to the topic, I think giving a high HP unit some help with defenses is far more useful than giving a seraph robe to an unit with high defenses. Aran gets doubled? Maybe in hard mode, but for me he only got doubled by cats in ch4 and never again except by myrmidons who deal like 2 damage to him when they show up. No danger here. Volug is already equipped with wildheart for free and uses it fine. I don't see any problem with keeping him transformed, it's just you being bad at manadging his gauge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Mir Posted May 15, 2020 Share Posted May 15, 2020 (edited) 3 hours ago, mangasdeouf said: Volug is already equipped with wildheart for free and uses it fine. I don't see any problem with keeping him transformed, it's just you being bad at manadging his gauge. It's still a problem that he has that beorc units don't. It's why I fail to see Mordecai as a better tank than Gatrie. The moment he reverts, he's a helpless punching bag that dies easily. Do you consider that to be acceptable in a tank? Because I damn well don't, and rightly so. Edited May 15, 2020 by Shadow Mir Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mangasdeouf Posted May 16, 2020 Author Share Posted May 16, 2020 1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said: It's still a problem that he has that beorc units don't. It's why I fail to see Mordecai as a better tank than Gatrie. The moment he reverts, he's a helpless punching bag that dies easily. Do you consider that to be acceptable in a tank? Because I damn well don't, and rightly so. Gatrie has 0 part 2 contribution and Brom is garbage for endgame due to fail speed and res. So Mordecai is there for part 2 and his HP soak enough damage to stay on the front lines as long as you have to hold, knowing that Brom or Nephenie (depending on who you trained, Brom being far more usable at base for the whole p2 and none of them being useful in GM chapters since GMs are already better) and Haar will clear the map with the Crimean Knights clearing some of the road blockers on the path to the boss (since I always steal the valuable items and there's one close to the boss and if you can't kill the boss you also have to steal his item if my memory is good). Mordecai just needs to take 1 ennemy and evenutally a javelin thrower at a time with a concoction and a vulnerary in human form and in tiger form I think he OHKOs several ennemies but I might be off (I don't remember their stats and his attack at this point of the game in normal mode), at least he's a Jeigan and that's better than Nephenie can say for most of p2, where she dies in 2 hits from any promoted ennemy and is weighed down by like 3-5 by her only available lance that allows her to deal something close to damage when she joins. If anyone could have used to be a pegasus, it's Nephenee. Meg at least doesn't need much mobility for half to most of DB chapters that are relying on skip tactics or defense maps where no one can really go far, except Jill for LTC but it's not my playstyle and I don't want the lady to miss with her trash tier accuracy and get killed instantly because her tanking abilities are poor and she faces overlevelled ennemies for most of her availability for the whole game. And don't start with transfers, transfers aren't legit because 1. you could not have used the unit in PoR or not reached stat caps for transfers and 2. many people don't even have a save file of PoR or even the game and many play on emulators (especially 90$ games that are more than 10 YO, it's like double the original price seriously) and not everyone wants to go look for info abou how to make transfers on Dolphin, as easy as it could be. I personally don't want to suffer like 27 chapters of the game tied for most boring gameplay in the series alongside Gaiden and its remake Echoes SOV. Still Mordecai has nearly double Neph's HP, 1 point of base def over her in HUMAN form and has the ability to transform and take 0 damage from every non magic ennemy on the map except maybe the boss. If his survivability is as bad as you say, then Nephenee is unplayable above easy mode (actually I used Brom instead in my 1st normal run since he was much better to start with and didn't need to get 5 points of strength just to match the damage of his competition while being killable in 2 hits by anything wielding an axe and 3 by anything wielding a weapon, barely exagerating), and we all know she isn't so Mordecai is far from the garbage you make him to be. And if Morde without wildheart is no worse than Nephenee for a part of the game where his transformed performance is very useful (acutally I think he might deal more damage in 1 hit than her in 2 but well...), then Volug with wildheart is the best ground unit in DB: highest HP pool, tied for highest defense until they promote/Aran, highest damage at base (he OHKOs much stuff Sothe only 2HKOs and take retaliation from, like mages, and his doubling potential stays good for a while, only not against cats/swordmasters but you send Aran or Tauroneo against these and it's laughably easy, when he's available which is the biggest problem of DB, having their best units leave the party so often). Give Volug a dragonshield and his def jumps from 13 to 16 with 49 HP, now he's bulkier than Tauroneo, more available, more mobile and I'll have to try and give him a pure water to see if it is also boosted by transformation bonuses or not, never tried it before. If it is then he would take nearly 0 damage from fire magic, which would make him the best DB unit since his movement is unrestricted in indoor maps unlike mounted units (including Jill), he has the best bases out of all the permanent members of DB and can shove even Tauroneo I guess, I don't remember. If you can manage transformation gauge it's even better since you can fully transform him when you need him to kill shit (22 base str 26 base speed 18 base def, 22 with dragonshield as a full wolf, this trivializes part 3 ennemiessince his contenders for def are Aran and prf!Nolan, the first has lower HP and much lower spd while the latter has lower HP too, lower speed and lower accuracy, and neither Aran nor Nolan are realistically doubling anything in part 3 unless heavy favoritism while base Volug can). Also Volug's weapon is unbreakable and if you use him a lot you'll even see how good an indestructible silver forge can be when you double almost everything (BTW with a speedwings he jumps to 22 base speed in half form and 30 in full, which means he doubles everything in part 3 when he can fully transform, not too often maybe but if you can set it up he can do some nice things, since half form and full form use the same amount of gauge per fight it doesn't change his gauge loosing rate and the good thing with wildheart is that you can move, untransform, retransform the same turn and attack which means he doesn't need to manage anything at all, only not sending him into the whole ennemy army but only Haar and Ragnell Ike can do that, Gatrie too but only with celerity otherwise he's not going far enough for it to work). Here, Volug's HP is his biggest defensive tool but any def/res booster sent at him puts him ever further from the other DB members. Volug is the middle ground between Fates Keaton and Kaden with the beaststone. But he outclasses both of them: he has promoted units' stats and a weapon that scales as the game goes on (and doesn't actually decrease his stats) to stay relevant and gains 1-2 free stat points bonus every 2nd point in every non-HP/luck stat depending on which transformation you're using. He also has unrestricted paladin movement and good shove potential in a game where mounts loose 2 movement points indoors and every endgame map is indoors (but his Endgame potential isn't high anyway). Volug is the best candidate for your stat boosters because he doesn't need to gain any level at all to beat part 3 with a dragonshield and an energy drop, maybe a speedwings if DB gets any, for part 3. Savescumming his 1st level up until he gains a point of speed can also help a lot since it bumps his speed in half form up to 21, or 24 with a speedwings if he can get his jaws on one. Leonardo or Aran support helps him a lot too and with Aran it's mutually beneficial. If people keep praising Zihark for his performance then what to say about Volug, who has better everything except speed? Zihark isn't really endgame material anyway since his strength is ass forever and beyond BEXP fixable limit unless you save scum a lot or give him paragon for 10 chapters (which is barely possible anyway), and his weapon type doesn't help his strength at all, he won't deal more than 20% damage with endgame weapons to generals and I'm assuming he is used long enoughfor that to even matter, when Stefan and Volke both join usable in part 4 with good/amazing bases and weapons and don't require any training to get there, actually using Stefan allows you to skip Zihark completely and give something to Volug and Tauroneo who are better from their joining map to part 3 and Tauroneo is still superior to Zihark for all of p4 since he doesn't rely on earth affinity to survive and can actually deal damage. Tauroneo is more like Silas if he had base speed (which he sadly lacks). His only bad time is when he caps spd, because he won't double middling speed ennemies ad the final boss, but seriously who would expect a marshall to double endgame ennemies anyway? It's like expecting your swordmaster to kill an armor without knight killer, totally unexpectable. Moreover Zihark struggles to kill any tier 2 unit, which means he won't realistically reach Stefan's level/stats by the time you get the green haired badass whose only worse stat would be res by 5 while he has 5-6 more HP than Zihark so a better physical durability (I don't expect any unit to dodge in normal mode and above with ennemies benefitting from leadership stars which are completely gamebreaking IMO and should just not exist at all since they make things imbalanced especially for DB who have very little bonuses from that mechanic, less than the ennemies in p1). You're better off just taking every DB unit who isn't dead weight and doesn't require to get any level up to be good (or is here from early in the game, Nolan/Eddie for the decent frontliner, Aran for the available tank, Meg is later joining Nolan with accurate weapons and better def and can just use the seraph robe and be instantly as good as Nolan while her level will ensure she can only surpass him by far for all the DB exclusive chapters, her only limit being the sae as Nolan's, which is movement, both being restricted in p3 and 1-8, don't forget that on top of 6 more levels to grow and much better exp gain she also has better promotion gains with 2 str/def instead of 1, and she can also use Tormod's celerity before giving it to Ilyana to fic any movement problem in the later chapters of p1, some peole in here have already explained how Meg can get to lv 9 on hard mode in her joining map without risks, so Nolan isn't getting anywhere above her if she just gained as much levels in 1 chapter as he got in 2 and a half and she will still gain more in the next chapters if you only put her on the ledge in 1-5 and take out the pegasi or something not particularly dangerous like the axe knight(s) in 1-6 and maybe the axe cavaliers if her level ups helped with her def, still with the seraph robe she has the same bulk as Nolan so 1 or 2 def with 4-5 HP make her good enough for a while, and at that point Nolan still looses AS with the steel axe with is laughabl when I see people say that Nolan can double because is doesn't happen a lot at all and without Tarvos his def is nothing to be proud of forever and his garbage promo gains and inabiliy to use BEXP to fix his stats before nearly p4 don't help his case, while his magix ensure he has no imbue niche). Sorry for this long parenthesis. The point is too many people forget that Laguz are mostly jeigans/oifeys and their mobility alone makes them good units, they don't need any investment to be usable and any stat booster givn to them patches them up for like 5 more chapters, which is quite good following this forum's own standard of thinking. Not all of them have Canto for sure, but they're still fine without it since they have shove, which allows some turn saving in LTCs. Laguz certainly aren't the best units, but they are good at combat while transformed and never useless, while some Beorc are barely usefull at all. I'd have seraph robe!Meg, Volug, Mordecai, Lethe, falcons in my team anytime instead of Zihark, (sorry) Fiona (I like how she is the most effective DB tank when raised but she still lacks availability, bases and adapted map design to get going), Leonardo, Rolf, Ilyana, Soren even if he's salvageable, Marcia, Astrid (who not only has garbage bases but also garbage growths in this one), Makalov (sword paladin really is bad, availability is bad, bases are bad, late game is bad too since caps are bad and 7 move canto is barely better than 7 move shove) and so on. Because I like their gameplay that requires thinking, their HP that are sky high, allowing them to survive even with halved stats or half form's 3/4ths of total stats, their mobility while cavalry is useless (availability, stats, caps, only Titania is good and her late game is kind of bad too, even on easy mode, I've already tried it and she deceived me without being RNG-screwed, she's just no Seth in a game without any good paladin, and Renning is the only gold knight you need for late game, even if none of them is good to bring to the tower anyway). In Fates Keaton is good stats-wise but his weapons are garbage like every stone in Fates and Kaden is good and very underestimated. Both have good/excellent HP in a game where no one has HP, both are decent offensive and defensive units if you use them well, and both can produce an useful child, one that most people use purely for performance and the other I always want to use just because I like her design and she can be good depending on her mother, too sad she can't have MU or Ryoma as her mother (or Scarlet -_-) so I put her either in dread fighter or archer most of the time. Given I ever play the playthrough up to the point where I get her, which is quite rare. HP is so good, sad we only realize it when he have to suffer lv 20 frontliners with barely 30 HP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Mir Posted May 16, 2020 Share Posted May 16, 2020 (edited) On 5/15/2020 at 12:19 PM, mangasdeouf said: But bak to the topic, I think giving a high HP unit some help with defenses is far more useful than giving a seraph robe to an unit with high defenses. Explain. Because I see it the exact opposite way; giving a fragile unit (like a fighter) help with defense likely won't make a difference, whereas giving someone like Xander a seraph robe cam make them take several more hits. 19 hours ago, mangasdeouf said: Gatrie has 0 part 2 contribution and Brom is garbage for endgame due to fail speed and res. So Mordecai is there for part 2 and his HP soak enough damage to stay on the front lines as long as you have to hold, knowing that Brom or Nephenie (depending on who you trained, Brom being far more usable at base for the whole p2 and none of them being useful in GM chapters since GMs are already better) and Haar will clear the map with the Crimean Knights clearing some of the road blockers on the path to the boss (since I always steal the valuable items and there's one close to the boss and if you can't kill the boss you also have to steal his item if my memory is good). Mordecai just needs to take 1 ennemy and evenutally a javelin thrower at a time with a concoction and a vulnerary in human form and in tiger form I think he OHKOs several ennemies but I might be off (I don't remember their stats and his attack at this point of the game in normal mode), at least he's a Jeigan and that's better than Nephenie can say for most of p2, where she dies in 2 hits from any promoted ennemy and is weighed down by like 3-5 by her only available lance that allows her to deal something close to damage when she joins. Once again, he's held back by being in his piss weak and doubled by everything untransformed state for several turns Unless you don't mind using one of the few laguz stones you have at that point. That is NOT a good thing when the enemy tends to start maps by rushing you. Also, part 2 is about the only time where Mordecai is good. 19 hours ago, mangasdeouf said: And don't start with transfers, transfers aren't legit because 1. you could not have used the unit in PoR or not reached stat caps for transfers and 2. many people don't even have a save file of PoR or even the game and many play on emulators (especially 90$ games that are more than 10 YO, it's like double the original price seriously) and not everyone wants to go look for info abou how to make transfers on Dolphin, as easy as it could be. I personally don't want to suffer like 27 chapters of the game tied for most boring gameplay in the series alongside Gaiden and its remake Echoes SOV. >Path of Raidance >Most boring gameplay You must not have heard of Genealogy of the Holy War, because I frankly think it has far greater claim to having the most boring gameplay than any of the games you mentioned. On topic, transfers wouldn't help Mordecai even if I was factoring them in because he's stuck with high caps he doesn't have a ghost of a chance of hitting, and he's still stuck with the typical laguz weaknesses that you can do jack shit to fix (being useless untransformed, being easy prey for ranged attackers, etc.) 19 hours ago, mangasdeouf said: Still Mordecai has nearly double Neph's HP, 1 point of base def over her in HUMAN form and has the ability to transform and take 0 damage from every non magic ennemy on the map except maybe the boss. If his survivability is as bad as you say, then Nephenee is unplayable above easy mode (actually I used Brom instead in my 1st normal run since he was much better to start with and didn't need to get 5 points of strength just to match the damage of his competition while being killable in 2 hits by anything wielding an axe and 3 by anything wielding a weapon, barely exagerating), and we all know she isn't so Mordecai is far from the garbage you make him to be. And if Morde without wildheart is no worse than Nephenee for a part of the game where his transformed performance is very useful (acutally I think he might deal more damage in 1 hit than her in 2 but well...), then Volug with wildheart is the best ground unit in DB: highest HP pool, tied for highest defense until they promote/Aran, highest damage at base (he OHKOs much stuff Sothe only 2HKOs and take retaliation from, like mages, and his doubling potential stays good for a while, only not against cats/swordmasters but you send Aran or Tauroneo against these and it's laughably easy, when he's available which is the biggest problem of DB, having their best units leave the party so often). Once again, that's not so great when everything and their grandma doubles you. Including generals. Good durability requires the speed to not get doubled for it to really be good. Just ask the many knights in the series. And it's not like untransformed Mordecai is taking love taps from melee enemies, to say nothing of the disaster it would be if any mage just sauntered up to him... Also, Wildheart doesn't fix any of the biggest laguz issues, which I've told you a trillion times. 19 hours ago, mangasdeouf said: Give Volug a dragonshield and his def jumps from 13 to 16 with 49 HP, now he's bulkier than Tauroneo, more available, more mobile and I'll have to try and give him a pure water to see if it is also boosted by transformation bonuses or not, never tried it before. If it is then he would take nearly 0 damage from fire magic, which would make him the best DB unit since his movement is unrestricted in indoor maps unlike mounted units (including Jill), he has the best bases out of all the permanent members of DB and can shove even Tauroneo I guess, I don't remember. If you can manage transformation gauge it's even better since you can fully transform him when you need him to kill shit (22 base str 26 base speed 18 base def, 22 with dragonshield as a full wolf, this trivializes part 3 ennemiessince his contenders for def are Aran and prf!Nolan, the first has lower HP and much lower spd while the latter has lower HP too, lower speed and lower accuracy, and neither Aran nor Nolan are realistically doubling anything in part 3 unless heavy favoritism while base Volug can). Or I could give that to someone like Nolan and not worry about the extra defense being useless part of the time because Volug has to start in his brittle untransformed state (after part 1, anyway). Which sounds better than giving it to someone who only has good HP and little else. 19 hours ago, mangasdeouf said: Also Volug's weapon is unbreakable and if you use him a lot you'll even see how good an indestructible silver forge can be when you double almost everything (BTW with a speedwings he jumps to 22 base speed in half form and 30 in full, which means he doubles everything in part 3 when he can fully transform, not too often maybe but if you can set it up he can do some nice things, since half form and full form use the same amount of gauge per fight it doesn't change his gauge loosing rate and the good thing with wildheart is that you can move, untransform, retransform the same turn and attack which means he doesn't need to manage anything at all, only not sending him into the whole ennemy army but only Haar and Ragnell Ike can do that, Gatrie too but only with celerity otherwise he's not going far enough for it to work). Sure. Except he won't be getting to indestructible silver forge level without 150 attacks (good luck with that when you're range locked and have to worry about being easily disintegrated when you're untransformed). Unless you play on Easy, where just about anyone can excel. 19 hours ago, mangasdeouf said: If people keep praising Zihark for his performance then what to say about Volug, who has better everything except speed? Zihark isn't really endgame material anyway since his strength is ass forever and beyond BEXP fixable limit unless you save scum a lot or give him paragon for 10 chapters (which is barely possible anyway), and his weapon type doesn't help his strength at all, he won't deal more than 20% damage with endgame weapons to generals and I'm assuming he is used long enoughfor that to even matter, when Stefan and Volke both join usable in part 4 with good/amazing bases and weapons and don't require any training to get there, actually using Stefan allows you to skip Zihark completely and give something to Volug and Tauroneo who are better from their joining map to part 3 and Tauroneo is still superior to Zihark for all of p4 since he doesn't rely on earth affinity to survive and can actually deal damage. Tauroneo is more like Silas if he had base speed (which he sadly lacks). His only bad time is when he caps spd, because he won't double middling speed ennemies ad the final boss, but seriously who would expect a marshall to double endgame ennemies anyway? It's like expecting your swordmaster to kill an armor without knight killer, totally unexpectable. What do Stefan and Volke have to do with this? Especially when they're only available for part 4 and the latter, while admittedly good, has a great chance of not being taken into the tower because someone else with his weapon type is forced into endgame. Also, the former, as well as the best weapon for the latter, is easy to miss, which can't help. 19 hours ago, mangasdeouf said: Moreover Zihark struggles to kill any tier 2 unit, which means he won't realistically reach Stefan's level/stats by the time you get the green haired badass whose only worse stat would be res by 5 while he has 5-6 more HP than Zihark so a better physical durability (I don't expect any unit to dodge in normal mode and above with ennemies benefitting from leadership stars which are completely gamebreaking IMO and should just not exist at all since they make things imbalanced especially for DB who have very little bonuses from that mechanic, less than the ennemies in p1). You're better off just taking every DB unit who isn't dead weight and doesn't require to get any level up to be good (or is here from early in the game, Nolan/Eddie for the decent frontliner, Aran for the available tank, Meg is later joining Nolan with accurate weapons and better def and can just use the seraph robe and be instantly as good as Nolan while her level will ensure she can only surpass him by far for all the DB exclusive chapters, her only limit being the sae as Nolan's, which is movement, both being restricted in p3 and 1-8, don't forget that on top of 6 more levels to grow and much better exp gain she also has better promotion gains with 2 str/def instead of 1, and she can also use Tormod's celerity before giving it to Ilyana to fic any movement problem in the later chapters of p1, some peole in here have already explained how Meg can get to lv 9 on hard mode in her joining map without risks, so Nolan isn't getting anywhere above her if she just gained as much levels in 1 chapter as he got in 2 and a half and she will still gain more in the next chapters if you only put her on the ledge in 1-5 and take out the pegasi or something not particularly dangerous like the axe knight(s) in 1-6 and maybe the axe cavaliers if her level ups helped with her def, still with the seraph robe she has the same bulk as Nolan so 1 or 2 def with 4-5 HP make her good enough for a while, and at that point Nolan still looses AS with the steel axe with is laughabl when I see people say that Nolan can double because is doesn't happen a lot at all and without Tarvos his def is nothing to be proud of forever and his garbage promo gains and inabiliy to use BEXP to fix his stats before nearly p4 don't help his case, while his magix ensure he has no imbue niche). >Meg >Not deadweight lolno. Meg sucks harder than Little Mac's recovery. And Little Mac's recovery is TERRIBLE. Simply put, she emphasizes the wrong stats for the role she's supposed to be in; she has poor strength and defense, instead specializing in luck, resistance and speed. Long story short, I'm better off ignoring her like the garbage she is. The Daeins have it bad enough as is; why in the name of Anankos would I want to torture myself trying to raise Meg??? Or for that matter, Edward, seeing as a fragile melee unit, which Edward is, will prove to be more of a liability than an asset? Bold: I haven't seen anyone insist that, and I could do that with other units that are ten billion percent better than Meg is or ever will be, so what's your point? Second, if Meg is caught up to Nolan in terms of level, not only have you sandbagged Nolan, you've given Meg blatant favoritism. 19 hours ago, mangasdeouf said: Sorry for this long parenthesis. The point is too many people forget that Laguz are mostly jeigans/oifeys and their mobility alone makes them good units, they don't need any investment to be usable and any stat booster givn to them patches them up for like 5 more chapters, which is quite good following this forum's own standard of thinking. Not all of them have Canto for sure, but they're still fine without it since they have shove, which allows some turn saving in LTCs. Laguz certainly aren't the best units, but they are good at combat while transformed and never useless, while some Beorc are barely usefull at all. I'd have seraph robe!Meg, Volug, Mordecai, Lethe, falcons in my team anytime instead of Zihark, (sorry) Fiona (I like how she is the most effective DB tank when raised but she still lacks availability, bases and adapted map design to get going), Leonardo, Rolf, Ilyana, Soren even if he's salvageable, Marcia, Astrid (who not only has garbage bases but also garbage growths in this one), Makalov (sword paladin really is bad, availability is bad, bases are bad, late game is bad too since caps are bad and 7 move canto is barely better than 7 move shove) and so on. Because I like their gameplay that requires thinking, their HP that are sky high, allowing them to survive even with halved stats or half form's 3/4ths of total stats, their mobility while cavalry is useless (availability, stats, caps, only Titania is good and her late game is kind of bad too, even on easy mode, I've already tried it and she deceived me without being RNG-screwed, she's just no Seth in a game without any good paladin, and Renning is the only gold knight you need for late game, even if none of them is good to bring to the tower anyway). Jeigans and Oifeys that need to transform to contribute in any combat fashion, and the moment they revert, need to hide behind the rest of your army because after a round of combat when they're untransformed, they're gonna end up looking like a Goomba after Mario or whoever stomped it flat. Long story short, laguz require me to jump through an insane amount of mental hoops to justify their presence on the team, and even when transformed, their performance tends to not nearly be good enough to make up for the downtime (after all, if a beorc struggles to do damage I can just have them use better weapons. A laguz that struggles to damage enemies is out of luck). Far as I'm concerned, the only good non-royal laguz are the hawks and Skrimir. So I don't see how you can say the likes of a loser like Lethe, who levels like a third tier without the stats to back it up, is better than Zihark. Edited May 16, 2020 by Shadow Mir Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mangasdeouf Posted May 17, 2020 Author Share Posted May 17, 2020 6 hours ago, Shadow Mir said: Explain. Because I see it the exact opposite way; giving a fragile unit (like a fighter) help with defense likely won't make a difference, whereas giving someone like Xander a seraph robe cam make them take several more hits. Once again, he's held back by being in his piss weak and doubled by everything untransformed state for several turns Unless you don't mind using one of the few laguz stones you have at that point. That is NOT a good thing when the enemy tends to start maps by rushing you. Also, part 2 is about the only time where Mordecai is good. >Path of Raidance >Most boring gameplay You must not have heard of Genealogy of the Holy War, because I frankly think it has far greater claim to having the most boring gameplay than any of the games you mentioned. On topic, transfers wouldn't help Mordecai even if I was factoring them in because he's stuck with high caps he doesn't have a ghost of a chance of hitting, and he's still stuck with the typical laguz weaknesses that you can do jack shit to fix (being useless untransformed, being easy prey for ranged attackers, etc.) Once again, that's not so great when everything and their grandma doubles you. Including generals. Good durability requires the speed to not get doubled for it to really be good. Just ask the many knights in the series. And it's not like untransformed Mordecai is taking love taps from melee enemies, to say nothing of the disaster it would be if any mage just sauntered up to him... Also, Wildheart doesn't fix any of the biggest laguz issues, which I've told you a trillion times. Or I could give that to someone like Nolan and not worry about the extra defense being useless part of the time because Volug has to start in his brittle untransformed state (after part 1, anyway). Which sounds better than giving it to someone who only has good HP and little else. Sure. Except he won't be getting to indestructible silver forge level without 150 attacks (good luck with that when you're range locked and have to worry about being easily disintegrated when you're untransformed). Unless you play on Easy, where just about anyone can excel. What do Stefan and Volke have to do with this? Especially when they're only available for part 4 and the latter, while admittedly good, has a great chance of not being taken into the tower because someone else with his weapon type is forced into endgame. Also, the former, as well as the best weapon for the latter, is easy to miss, which can't help. >Meg >Not deadweight lolno. Meg sucks harder than Little Mac's recovery. And Little Mac's recovery is TERRIBLE. Simply put, she emphasizes the wrong stats for the role she's supposed to be in; she has poor strength and defense, instead specializing in luck, resistance and speed. Long story short, I'm better off ignoring her like the garbage she is. The Daeins have it bad enough as is; why in the name of Anankos would I want to torture myself trying to raise Meg??? Or for that matter, Edward, seeing as a fragile melee unit, which Edward is, will prove to be more of a liability than an asset? Bold: I haven't seen anyone insist that, and I could do that with other units that are ten billion percent better than Meg is or ever will be, so what's your point? Second, if Meg is caught up to Nolan in terms of level, not only have you sandbagged Nolan, you've given Meg blatant favoritism. Jeigans and Oifeys that need to transform to contribute in any combat fashion, and the moment they revert, need to hide behind the rest of your army because after a round of combat when they're untransformed, they're gonna end up looking like a Goomba after Mario or whoever stomped it flat. Long story short, laguz require me to jump through an insane amount of mental hoops to justify their presence on the team, and even when transformed, their performance tends to not nearly be good enough to make up for the downtime (after all, if a beorc struggles to do damage I can just have them use better weapons. A laguz that struggles to damage enemies is out of luck). Far as I'm concerned, the only good non-royal laguz are the hawks and Skrimir. So I don't see how you can say the likes of a loser like Lethe, who levels like a third tier without the stats to back it up, is better than Zihark. I think it's the last time that I'll answer your inexperienced fallacies: Wildheart lets you transform and untransform WHENEVER YOU WANT, do you understand whenever you want? It means that your half transformation gauge only gets to 0 if you take as many ennemy attacks at it is needed to go from 30 or whatever 27 he may have after attacking on his turn, to 0. Which never happened to me, because he can't fight 10 ennemies per turn because there aren't so many he will be able to 1 round (in p1 ennemy density isn't high enough and in part 3 he doesn't necessarily one round everything at base, but with a beastfoe or energy drop his performance is surely better with +3 strength or tripple weapon damage vs laguz). Why give anything to Nolan? At least you can say Jill has flying and no arrow weakness even if she has garbage base HP and unimpressive growth to go with it, so she makes use out of stat boosters. Meg has Nolan's bases minus hp plus def, with a seraph robe she outclasses base Nolan. Base Nolan is level 9/ Meg is level 3. Meg normally caps speed at level 24, Nolan caps his first stats above level 30. Good luck fixing his garbage stats until he falls in the dust. Meg with promo bonuses has 12 str/def 9 spd from her lv 3 bases, Nolan has 13 str 10 def 10 spd with his level 9 bases, and he has no business with seraph robe as a fighter with 30 base HP it would just be a waste on him. So if we take lv 9/1 Nolan with dragonshield he has 31 HP, 13 str, 12 skl (with axes), 11 spd, 12 def, 5 res. Vs Meg 3/1 with seraph robe: 30 HP, 12 str, 9 skl, 9 spd, 12 def, 7 res. She tanks magic better than he'll ever be able to, no more spd penalty with steel while Nolan still looses 2 spd with steel (on top of having shit tier accuracy with everything higher than iron before tier 3). Like I said, you can give Meg 6 level ups in her join chapter. Anyone else would gain 2-4 levels max depending on their current level at the beginning of the chapter. It means that she has all the room to outclass every single combat unit you have atthis point in 1 chapter. And that's on hard mode. After looking at their average stats, Meg lv 9 is equal with seraph robe to Nolan lv 13 with dragonshield. So now he still gains less exp than her and has already been outclassed by the so called bad unit Meg is supposed to be. Imagine if Mozu had Rinkah's base stats and her own growth rates at lv 1, that would be about the same argument. And celerity fixes all temporary movement problems for chapters 8 and epilogue of part 1, part 3 no one can move far enough to make a difference between mobile units and knights and it emphasises really on turtling (and maybe sending one god to kill the boss or whatever the LTC tactic is). Meg outclasses his res forever and it's useful in the chapter just after her joining map since she can tank the mages fine and draw them for anyone to OHKO them while she heals. Meg has comparable shove utility to Nolan. I prefer a unit with more accuracy and guaranteed to not loose AS just by promoting even if she is RNG-screwed in str and gains 0 point in it, (also base accuracy of swords is mountains above axes) while her speed is on par with his at a comparable level (9 with 13) and effective speed favors her due to what I said, she looses less AS from her weapons (it goes wild in p3 with poleaxes and the like since swords have way less accuracy and weight problems than axes). Nolan's only postivie element is his prf weapon, everythin else about him is subpar. So in her case, her better base def (which is still average and not high def) is a boon far more important than whatever he brings to the table. And you can still use both since the goal of DB missions is to survive, in which case whoever you use isn't a big deal. Just Nolan is so overrated that it looks like fangirls lick his toes all the time on every FE board (be it GFAQs, Reddit or Serenes) while his severe lack of performance even in easy mode has always bothered (or should I say annoyed) me. Even save scumming his level ups didn't allow him to be half as good as Aran. I just find Nolan sucks and all he's good for is taking 2 hits before healing. In this case you can have an unit who will be good as a filler with 1 stat booster vs an unit who's gonna be underperforming for the whole game even with 3 stat boosters who should go to Jill or Volug who can actually use them to kill ennemies and boost the kill count of the chapter where you attack the falcos from a cliff. Just for your information, lv 20 Meg has the same speed as lv 24 Nolan. Who's gonna double the fastest? Nolan's level 20 speed is 16, 17 after promo. He's barely better than Aran of all people and Aran actually has 20 def on average at lv 20 with 30 HP vs 12.85 def with 35 HP. Who's gonna take the biggest hits between these? Still not Nolan. This guy only has his base HP and his facial hair going for him. If you like Nolan so much you should know that he has to reach level 25 just to match Volug's base stats (with a little lead in def and speed against a big lead on HP and a 6 chapter lead of combat and mobility for Volug where he can kill everything in sight not wearing an armor while Nolan is sandbagging and fails to counterattack anything with a sword while his damage is laughable for his class). Also compared with Eddie, Meg has much higher bulk and better base strength with equal lv 21 strength, so she's less RNG-screwable than him in terms of damage and bulk, with also a 2 HP lead 1 level lower than him and he doesn't outscale her either due to myrm/SM caps being trash in everything not called spd/skl. If you're taking one to the tower, Meg's 12 res cap over Nolan and 16 res gap with Edward is indisputably better than Nolan's level 60 speed advantage while he has 5 less def, so yeah, when ennemies deal too much damage I know that HP isn't so much better than defenses, but a unit with both is king/queen when ennemy density doesn't allow you to take out 2-3 ennemies only per full turn. It's just that Radiant Dawn's t3 caps are trash unlike GBA t2 caps, if you want to compare them against ennemies, add 10 points to GBA caps and you'll see how Radiant Dawn just fucked up with caps in general. Be it the hot garbo def of reavers compared with Warriors (despite Boyd actually capping it and not too late at that for 5 level ups with bexp to patch his weaker stats), the speed cap of 2/3rds of the Beorc classes not even able to double the weighed down final boss in normal and hard. This is one more reason to use Laguz, the ones who can double are much better combat units than half the cast if not more and are usable at base without needing to be babied, and units like Janaff can do some work without levelling up once, he has 57 base HP, 16 str (24 in half and 32 in full), 17 spd (25 in half and 34 in full), 30 luck and 12 def (18/24). Janaff has t3 units base stats and even has decent growths for what it's worth. In human form his base stats are better than Boyd's, in half form better than Ike (2 more speed) and in full form he completely stomps part 3 if you got enough olivi grass for him. He even stomps part 4. Ulki hits softer but has ridiculous avoid due to his personal skill and more res, he's more like an actual swordmaster but he flies and has canto. Laguz HP is so high that they can allow themselves to have lower def/res, because their base HP is only matched by level 10, 15 or 20 t3 Beorcs. Anyway RD is giving you royals so you don't even need any Beorc other some staff bots and mandatory units. I don't even play tower tobe honest, did it 4x, 3 in easy 1 in normal and it's boring, doesn't exploit many of the new mechanics (like height differences). TL;DR: how do you see Laguz: oh no these units can't take 15 units per turn, kill them all and go unscratched, they're garbage! (it's a hyperbole but you get the point). How do I see Laguz: they have t2 halfway to t3 (Mordy, Lethe, Volug), nearly t3 (Ranulf) or t3 level 10-15 stats (Janaff, Ulki, Muarim), at base with no investment, the best mobility after/alongside wyverns/falcos, best shove utility, some have canto, and all of them blow every Beorc out of the universe in HP, making up for their average defenses with massive HP pools. PS: About transfers I wasn't implying Mordecai but Nephenee. Without transfers she starts with Sothe's defensive stats (sorry, less than Sothe is more correct) as well as worse than Sothe offensive stats. I don't see how anyone can be willing to raise her in any mode above easy. I like her design but she's nothing special as an unit, even a pain to use, needs heavy babying for several chapers, she's Edward without his strength growth. Highly overrated IMO. She would be worse than Marcia, Sigrun and Tanith if she didn't join Ike early in part 3. Giving paragon to Marcia gives the same results with flight utility if you used her in part 2 to get her to playable level for the Crimean border map in p3 where you have to save the villages. Actually Marcia may even be better than Neph with that. Anyway Fates is Royalstomp from brginning to end and seals put up a middle finger to defense/res based tanks, as well as shuriken/daggers' debuffs. Thus HP is a good stat to have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starburst Posted May 17, 2020 Share Posted May 17, 2020 The thing is that there are not many units that fit this scenario anyway. How many great-HP-bad-Defence clases do you have? Berserkers? They are Player-Phase units and do not depend on their HP to fulfil their role. Heroes? It would be a stretch to say that their Defence is bad. Wolves? Their Stones make up for everything. If not classes, which units meet this criteria? Kaze? His Defence does not matter, he only cares about Resistance. In a game that takes place on Player Phase like 90 % of the time, the defensive statistics of the great majority of your party is irrelevant, as long as they one-hit or one-round. And for the two “tanks” that you need in the whole game, whatever defensive numbers Silas and +Magic Nohr Noble Cornflakes have are enough for all situations. And neither of them fit the two given options. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
samthedigital Posted May 17, 2020 Share Posted May 17, 2020 Quote The thing is that there are not many units that fit this scenario anyway. How many great-HP-bad-Defence clases do you have? The topic was about units with average defenses and great HP. Maybe I'm missing something though; I have gotten lost in all this Radiant Dawn talk, and I feel that I've wasted enough time reading that mess much less trying to point out all of the problems with those posts. Quote And for the two “tanks” that you need in the whole game, whatever defensive numbers Silas and +Magic Nohr Noble Cornflakes have are enough for all situations. It's also possible for them to have too much defense (and I would never go +def Corrin for this reason), but to be fair that is somewhat rare. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mangasdeouf Posted May 17, 2020 Author Share Posted May 17, 2020 52 minutes ago, samthedigital said: The topic was about units with average defenses and great HP. Maybe I'm missing something though; I have gotten lost in all this Radiant Dawn talk, and I feel that I've wasted enough time reading that mess much less trying to point out all of the problems with those posts. It's also possible for them to have too much defense (and I would never go +def Corrin for this reason), but to be fair that is somewhat rare. I often use +HP Corrin if I want a tanky Corrin (I even use - spd sometimes, knowing wary fighter is there if I need it). And like I said, it was the last time I answered to Levant on the Radiant Dawn points on Laguz etc. and honestly I tried to link it as much as possible to the topic by constantly recalling the HP/def/res part. Laguz are just better combat units than Wolfssegners and Nine tailed Fox but they have more downsides for being better at fighting, like having to manage a ressource (well for a cross-game comparison it's similar to ultimate abilities that boost one's fighting ability rather than just dealing X damage, full transformation is the ultimate ability and half transformation is more like the beaststone or beastrune without it's drawbacks on units with 50% more HP than Fates form changers, that allows them to be so interesting, mounted mobility and shove, a few having both shove and canto, notably birds). The positive point is their mobility that is better than Beorc units since they take less penalties for it. Back to the topic, Fates form changers have good combat stats with average def/res (one being anti-mage the other being anti-tank, and if you look at it beastrune Kaden has better combat than beastrune/beaststone Keaton due to good base strength, excellent base speed and growth, impenetrable res with average def, his beastrune def being about similar to Oboro without guard naginata, and he actually has 35% def growth which is quite decent for a supposedly glass cannony unit). Their only real problem apart from range is that...they have foot soldier mobility, which is a dowgrade from any form changer I've seen in a Fire Emblem (comparable to Ena in Radiant Dawn). 5 hours ago, starburst said: The thing is that there are not many units that fit this scenario anyway. How many great-HP-bad-Defence clases do you have? Berserkers? They are Player-Phase units and do not depend on their HP to fulfil their role. Heroes? It would be a stretch to say that their Defence is bad. Wolves? Their Stones make up for everything. If not classes, which units meet this criteria? Kaze? His Defence does not matter, he only cares about Resistance. In a game that takes place on Player Phase like 90 % of the time, the defensive statistics of the great majority of your party is irrelevant, as long as they one-hit or one-round. And for the two “tanks” that you need in the whole game, whatever defensive numbers Silas and +Magic Nohr Noble Cornflakes have are enough for all situations. And neither of them fit the two given options. When I play Fates I hate going with 23 base HP units because they just fall so fast from anything that beats their def/res that it's the same as sending a glass cannon. Meanwhile higher HP units have it better and don't rely solely on their def/res to tank but can take a big hit from their HP alone. Increasing their def/res makes them very reliable frontliners and HP is more versatile for tanking than def or res will ever be. Be it magical or physical damage, HP doesn't change while 20 def 6 res means the tank can only take 1 magical hit and gets benched as soon as magical ennemies are too common (which is Blacksmith!Rinkah, GK!Silas and Spear Master!Oboro's problem, at least without guard naginata, which is simply an item that could be seen as a cheat by itself, it's only downside being low damage and no 1-2).That's why I prefer taking Kaden as any class in my team rather than Kaze. Better strength, better HP, average def vs trash def, nearly identical res, and Kaden only improves if you give him a class with a 1-2 weapon or some quality weapons, while Kaze is already in his best class and already underperforming. His strength cap and his def are really holding him back from being the good unit so many players make him out to be. Anyone can be good with backpack abuse, but everyone can't get a +4 def +4 str backpack at the same time. Rinkah isn't exclusive to Kaze, meanwhile bad def/str and middling HP are his dowsides for the whole game. That's the reason for me to play Kaden, Hinata, Oboro over Kaze, Rinkah, Silas. Even Oboro has 2 or 3 base HP over Silas while his HP growth doesn't even ensure he will have the same HP at her level. It also doesn't help that he has shaky growths and bases everywhere on top of HP. Oboro is better than Silas in almost everything for about the whole game. 8 base speed with only average HP/def and mediocre res put Silas in the gutter in my book. You said this gae is 90% PP action. Well, maybe. But you seem to forget that, in order to see PP, you must be able to survive EP. I've played lunatic and I can tell you that my MVP there was Spear fighter Subaki. Yes, Subaki. 19 def at level 18, seal def, more than 30 HP (I don't remember exactly since it's been like a month ago, must have been between 33 and 37) and darting blow really helped him, he has 24 def with guard naginata before promotion alongside his HP, effectively tanking all of the ennemies on the boat chapter even if he was 1v5 and attacked by magic once per turn by the dangerous Malig knight. After that all these ennemies were lying there with seal def on them and my team just had to come and slaughter them. Without my stupidly good Subaki (not even strong, just tanky and average fast more from bases than growths), I'd have to take out swarms of ennemies with my limited team. With Subaki playing AOE taunt tank and debuffing ennemies, it was a walk in the park. PP action is ENABLED by good frontline units. With bad frontliners, You can only kite ennemies 1 by 1 and end up cornered by a finite map and too many ennemies to kill them, it also kills any intent on saving turns since you can go forward only if you won't die for it. The versatility of HP is the most valuable frontline boon. Having bad HP is a bane. Take Hana, she's a PP unit with low defensive stats. If her trash defensive growths don't cooperate (and they're likely to screw you over more than not), she will be OHKOd by a lot of ennemies before midgame even happens. That's where you go when you don't have HP. Azura dies in 1 hit from so many ennemies I've stopped hoping she would be able to live through a single hit. She's a Heron Laguz but worse (no mobility steroid, no multiple units song, only 1 type of song available). In a game with many open maps and ennemy groups moving all together towards the player in a very Awakening-style AI and level design, I don't even deploy her in most maps past chapter 9/10. FE 8 has another way to make you realize what HP is worth: dragonzombies. Good luck taking a hit with bad HP, 29-31 true damage with very high accuracy puts your squishies into danger zone where any other hit before they heal set them dead. It's especially true when your mages or squishy physical units don't reach 40 HP before CC, alongside barely having 10 def against 25-30 damage ennemies. Fates even shows you how important HP is the further you go into the game: when you see Garon's attack, speed and bulk in normal mode in chapter 12, you have to think that you will have to be able to fight THAT with your no HP units. Then you think that you'd better have good HP because no amount of defense will be enough to fight him plus whatever ennemies you'll have to face alongside him if you can't one round him (and with dragonscale, I doubt that anyone can one round him). Especially if he has draconic hex like in chapter 12, meaning you won't survive 2 rounds against him not even counting his underlings. In no pair up mode, I don't even imagine the set up you have to use to kill him without loosing anyone, and he's not even the final boss if I've understood the hints I've read here and there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Mir Posted May 17, 2020 Share Posted May 17, 2020 (edited) 15 hours ago, mangasdeouf said: I think it's the last time that I'll answer your inexperienced fallacies: Wildheart lets you transform and untransform WHENEVER YOU WANT, do you understand whenever you want? It means that your half transformation gauge only gets to 0 if you take as many ennemy attacks at it is needed to go from 30 or whatever 27 he may have after attacking on his turn, to 0. Which never happened to me, because he can't fight 10 ennemies per turn because there aren't so many he will be able to 1 round (in p1 ennemy density isn't high enough and in part 3 he doesn't necessarily one round everything at base, but with a beastfoe or energy drop his performance is surely better with +3 strength or tripple weapon damage vs laguz). If you want to talk about inexperienced fallacies, I'd take a look in the mirror. Wildheart does nothing to fix the greatest flaws that laguz have, such as being range locked, among others. 15 hours ago, mangasdeouf said: Why give anything to Nolan? At least you can say Jill has flying and no arrow weakness even if she has garbage base HP and unimpressive growth to go with it, so she makes use out of stat boosters. Meg has Nolan's bases minus hp plus def, with a seraph robe she outclasses base Nolan. Base Nolan is level 9/ Meg is level 3. Meg normally caps speed at level 24, Nolan caps his first stats above level 30. Good luck fixing his garbage stats until he falls in the dust. Meg with promo bonuses has 12 str/def 9 spd from her lv 3 bases, Nolan has 13 str 10 def 10 spd with his level 9 bases, and he has no business with seraph robe as a fighter with 30 base HP it would just be a waste on him. So if we take lv 9/1 Nolan with dragonshield he has 31 HP, 13 str, 12 skl (with axes), 11 spd, 12 def, 5 res. Vs Meg 3/1 with seraph robe: 30 HP, 12 str, 9 skl, 9 spd, 12 def, 7 res. She tanks magic better than he'll ever be able to, no more spd penalty with steel while Nolan still looses 2 spd with steel (on top of having shit tier accuracy with everything higher than iron before tier 3). Like I said, you can give Meg 6 level ups in her join chapter. Anyone else would gain 2-4 levels max depending on their current level at the beginning of the chapter. It means that she has all the room to outclass every single combat unit you have atthis point in 1 chapter. And that's on hard mode. Because he's one of the units carrying the team early on. Radiant Dawn is hard enough as is, ignoring one of the better unpromoted units in part 1 is just moronic. Also, Meg starts well behind everyone else, and she's not catching up at rocket speed. Being better against mages is a minor point, as mages are a minority. It isn't like Meg's accuracy is that much better than Nolan's, given that an iron sword is only 10 points more accurate than an iron axe. and he starts with higher base skill than she does (to say nothing of the fact that he likely gained a couple levels before then, at which point what little deficit he'd have would have disappeared completely [fun fact; one skill and luck point each brings Nolan to tie Meg in accuracy if they're using the same weapon tier]). If Nolan has shit tier accuracy despite having higher skill than Meg forever, what does that say about her accuracy? Hint: It ain't good. If ranged attacking is needed, she gets curb-stomped because wind edges are less accurate than hand axes. And once again, if you could abuse Meg up in her joining chapter, I could to the same with any other combat unit, so pretending that's something only Meg can do is an inexperienced fallacy. 15 hours ago, mangasdeouf said: After looking at their average stats, Meg lv 9 is equal with seraph robe to Nolan lv 13 with dragonshield. So now he still gains less exp than her and has already been outclassed by the so called bad unit Meg is supposed to be. Imagine if Mozu had Rinkah's base stats and her own growth rates at lv 1, that would be about the same argument. And celerity fixes all temporary movement problems for chapters 8 and epilogue of part 1, part 3 no one can move far enough to make a difference between mobile units and knights and it emphasises really on turtling (and maybe sending one god to kill the boss or whatever the LTC tactic is). Meg outclasses his res forever and it's useful in the chapter just after her joining map since she can tank the mages fine and draw them for anyone to OHKO them while she heals. Meg has comparable shove utility to Nolan. I prefer a unit with more accuracy and guaranteed to not loose AS just by promoting even if she is RNG-screwed in str and gains 0 point in it, (also base accuracy of swords is mountains above axes) while her speed is on par with his at a comparable level (9 with 13) and effective speed favors her due to what I said, she looses less AS from her weapons (it goes wild in p3 with poleaxes and the like since swords have way less accuracy and weight problems than axes). Nolan's only postivie element is his prf weapon, everythin else about him is subpar. So in her case, her better base def (which is still average and not high def) is a boon far more important than whatever he brings to the table. And you can still use both since the goal of DB missions is to survive, in which case whoever you use isn't a big deal. Just Nolan is so overrated that it looks like fangirls lick his toes all the time on every FE board (be it GFAQs, Reddit or Serenes) while his severe lack of performance even in easy mode has always bothered (or should I say annoyed) me. Even save scumming his level ups didn't allow him to be half as good as Aran. I just find Nolan sucks and all he's good for is taking 2 hits before healing. In this case you can have an unit who will be good as a filler with 1 stat booster vs an unit who's gonna be underperforming for the whole game even with 3 stat boosters who should go to Jill or Volug who can actually use them to kill ennemies and boost the kill count of the chapter where you attack the falcos from a cliff. Once again, Meg isn't leveling up THAT fast. And if I'm having her whale on laguz while letting them heal up in her joining chapter, I could have done that with anyone else, so that's not a point in her favor. Also, Celerity requires 15 capacity to equip, so only Tormod or a second tier unit would be making use of it in part 1 (to say nothing of the fact that I'd be best off having it transferred to the mercs via Ilyana, or the fact that Tormod himself comes late in part 1). And once again, how can you bash Nolan's accuracy and yet turn around and praise Meg's accuracy when she has lower accuracy than him despite her using the more accurate weapon type??? Besides, Meg's starting underleveled alone is enough to discourage me from using her, because it's not worth it to torture myself when part 1 is already hard as hell; hell, even though I could deploy her in 1-6, I instead bench her because she is a liability - Laura and Micaiah alone are enough to worry about when there are pegasus knights among the enemies, and having Meg is not going to make things easier, as now I have one more failure condition. 15 hours ago, mangasdeouf said: Just for your information, lv 20 Meg has the same speed as lv 24 Nolan. Who's gonna double the fastest? Nolan's level 20 speed is 16, 17 after promo. He's barely better than Aran of all people and Aran actually has 20 def on average at lv 20 with 30 HP vs 12.85 def with 35 HP. Who's gonna take the biggest hits between these? Still not Nolan. This guy only has his base HP and his facial hair going for him. If you like Nolan so much you should know that he has to reach level 25 just to match Volug's base stats (with a little lead in def and speed against a big lead on HP and a 6 chapter lead of combat and mobility for Volug where he can kill everything in sight not wearing an armor while Nolan is sandbagging and fails to counterattack anything with a sword while his damage is laughable for his class). Also compared with Eddie, Meg has much higher bulk and better base strength with equal lv 21 strength, so she's less RNG-screwable than him in terms of damage and bulk, with also a 2 HP lead 1 level lower than him and he doesn't outscale her either due to myrm/SM caps being trash in everything not called spd/skl. If you're taking one to the tower, Meg's 12 res cap over Nolan and 16 res gap with Edward is indisputably better than Nolan's level 60 speed advantage while he has 5 less def, so yeah, when ennemies deal too much damage I know that HP isn't so much better than defenses, but a unit with both is king/queen when ennemy density doesn't allow you to take out 2-3 ennemies only per full turn. It's just that Radiant Dawn's t3 caps are trash unlike GBA t2 caps, if you want to compare them against ennemies, add 10 points to GBA caps and you'll see how Radiant Dawn just fucked up with caps in general. Be it the hot garbo def of reavers compared with Warriors (despite Boyd actually capping it and not too late at that for 5 level ups with bexp to patch his weaker stats), the speed cap of 2/3rds of the Beorc classes not even able to double the weighed down final boss in normal and hard. Except Meg won't be anywhere near Nolan's level without massive favoritism on her part because she starts far behind level wise and struggles to contribute due to poor base stats. Also, Volug still has the typical laguz weaknesses that knock his viability way down (and honestly, I think he's overrated anyhow). First bold: If they're melee enemies. If they're ranged enemies, Volug can do nothing but stare them down while they do damage he can't answer. Second bold: Not really. Third bold: Different games, different mechanics. Adding 10 to GBA caps wouldn't change anything, because most units would struggle to hit the inflated caps. 15 hours ago, mangasdeouf said: This is one more reason to use Laguz, the ones who can double are much better combat units than half the cast if not more and are usable at base without needing to be babied, and units like Janaff can do some work without levelling up once, he has 57 base HP, 16 str (24 in half and 32 in full), 17 spd (25 in half and 34 in full), 30 luck and 12 def (18/24). Janaff has t3 units base stats and even has decent growths for what it's worth. In human form his base stats are better than Boyd's, in half form better than Ike (2 more speed) and in full form he completely stomps part 3 if you got enough olivi grass for him. He even stomps part 4. Ulki hits softer but has ridiculous avoid due to his personal skill and more res, he's more like an actual swordmaster but he flies and has canto. Not really - look at Ranulf. He is bogged down by having an iron level weapon when almost everyone around him can be using steel heavy weapons, to say nothing of him needing to transform first. Janaff and Ulki are pretty much the only exceptions owing to their coming 1-2 levels away from Tear, among other things. 15 hours ago, mangasdeouf said: Laguz HP is so high that they can allow themselves to have lower def/res, because their base HP is only matched by level 10, 15 or 20 t3 Beorcs. Anyway RD is giving you royals so you don't even need any Beorc other some staff bots and mandatory units. I don't even play tower tobe honest, did it 4x, 3 in easy 1 in normal and it's boring, doesn't exploit many of the new mechanics (like height differences). And once again, high HP doesn't help you much when it sinks like the Titanic every time you take a hit - look at a lot of the fighters in the series. High HP didn't take them far, and it doesn't help much when you can't dodge AND get doubled by everything. 15 hours ago, mangasdeouf said: TL;DR: how do you see Laguz: oh no these units can't take 15 units per turn, kill them all and go unscratched, they're garbage! (it's a hyperbole but you get the point). How do I see Laguz: they have t2 halfway to t3 (Mordy, Lethe, Volug), nearly t3 (Ranulf) or t3 level 10-15 stats (Janaff, Ulki, Muarim), at base with no investment, the best mobility after/alongside wyverns/falcos, best shove utility, some have canto, and all of them blow every Beorc out of the universe in HP, making up for their average defenses with massive HP pools. I see laguz as garbage because damn near all of them are atrociously underpowered for the steep investment cost and how many disadvantages they suffer from. Notably, their lack of range, which compromises their Enemy Phase efficiency HARD compared to beorc (even the royals suffer from this, which is one reason why they're overrated). The lategame of Radiant Dawn adds insult to injury because it's heavy on rout chapters. Even for the royals, their downsides - downsides you keep on downplaying or even going so far as to outright ignore - hinder them in a big way. Range lock is why bows and swords sucked in Blazing Blade, Path of Radiance and Sacred Stones - even if an archer is trained, at best they can only kill one enemy a turn, which is not good when a javelin or hand axe user can delete multiple enemies a turn. 15 hours ago, mangasdeouf said: PS: About transfers I wasn't implying Mordecai but Nephenee. Without transfers she starts with Sothe's defensive stats (sorry, less than Sothe is more correct) as well as worse than Sothe offensive stats. I don't see how anyone can be willing to raise her in any mode above easy. I like her design but she's nothing special as an unit, even a pain to use, needs heavy babying for several chapers, she's Edward without his strength growth. Highly overrated IMO. She would be worse than Marcia, Sigrun and Tanith if she didn't join Ike early in part 3. Giving paragon to Marcia gives the same results with flight utility if you used her in part 2 to get her to playable level for the Crimean border map in p3 where you have to save the villages. Actually Marcia may even be better than Neph with that. Except Nephenee actually uses a good weapon type, unlike Sothe and his lolknives. 15 hours ago, mangasdeouf said: Anyway Fates is Royalstomp from brginning to end and seals put up a middle finger to defense/res based tanks, as well as shuriken/daggers' debuffs. Thus HP is a good stat to have. Too bad Ryoma and Xander aren't playable the whole game. Also, high HP alone doesn't make up for having shit defenses - I say again, look at fighters. Most of them had high HP and little else. Surprise, surprise - they sucked. Edited May 17, 2020 by Shadow Mir Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starburst Posted May 17, 2020 Share Posted May 17, 2020 7 hours ago, samthedigital said: The topic was about units with average defenses and great HP. Maybe I'm missing something though [...] But then we need to define what “average defences” and “great HP” mean. From memory, late game Berserkers have over 50 HP, but a Paladin or Great Knight would have around 35 HP, and a Hero or Wyvern Lord would be at 35-40 HP. A General would probably have as much as 40-45 HP (I hardly ever use them.) If Berserkers have “great HP”, and that is 20-40 % over the following class, do these other classes have “low HP” or “average HP” or what? And what is “average defences”? The 25 Def from a Paladin or Hero? Yet the Paladin would have like a ten-point lead on Resistance. The 18 Def from a Berserker? That is equal or less than a Sorcerer, but the former will have like a fifteen-point lead in HP, while the latter will have significantly more Res. I do not want to talk about the units themselves, because then the conversation would be even more complex; like Sorcerer Odin having equal Defence than your Paladins. I honestly do not know what units meet the criteria that started this thread. And independently of this doubt, I find irrelevant the defensive statistics of the great majority of the team (the Player-Phase units.) Their one job is to clean areas, and as long as they can take one hit (IF they get hit), they will be fine. You do not choose them based on their defences but on their attack power. They never hold an Enemy Phase. Give me a situation where you need more than two “tanks” to hold a position. I will give you two, and these are probably the only two cases in the entire game: Chapter 19 and Chapter 24. And even then, Ch 19 has tons of terrain differences and only requires more than two “tanks” if you move fast, and these “extra tanks” would only hold selective Enemy Phases, as distractions, so that the foxes do not pile up on your two front liners. Ch 24 has more scenarios where you can be surrounded, but that does not mean that your units will be hit five times concurrently or that the defensive thresholds are that high. Your units will be hit once (or twice if the AI targets you in particular and if the enemies have 1-2 range), and multiple units can stand these hits. Chapter 21 is not “open” (the paths are long and narrow), but it is tricky because you can either be surrounded if you do not know what to do, or are never surrounded if you keep marching forward and dispatch each “Rocker” in one phase. I still only need two “tanks”, but I am open to listen what you have to say here because my main strategy involves two or three high-Magic units, and have yet to come up with a reliable one without them. Conquest has only one or two open maps, and you are hardly ever surrounded. Every single map has bottle necks that can be hold by one or two units. And the defensive thresholds are never that high. 8 hours ago, samthedigital said: It's also possible for [Corrin or Silas] to have too much defense (and I would never go +def Corrin for this reason), but to be fair that is somewhat rare. I usually go Hero Silas, and do not remember his having too much Defence. But I rarely have Rally Defence or more than one Demoiselle, so that could be your scenario. About Cornflakes, well, I specifically said +Magic Nohr Noble so that her defences were never that high (and yet are enough to hold basically any one position in the entire game.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonymousSpeed Posted May 18, 2020 Share Posted May 18, 2020 Effie has really good defense. Her HP isn't all that great, though. It's not terrible but it's not mountainous. Effie is a very useful tank- much more so than Arthur or any other fighter in any other game. Big defense > big HP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
samthedigital Posted May 18, 2020 Share Posted May 18, 2020 Quote Effie has really good defense. Her HP isn't all that great, though. It's not terrible but it's not mountainous. Effie is a very useful tank- much more so than Arthur or any other fighter in any other game. Big defense > big HP That's if her defense doesn't get to a point where enemies won't attack her. There are also a lot of ways of fixing a unit's defense in this game while there are limited options to buff HP. Quote I still only need two “tanks”, but I am open to listen what you have to say here because my main strategy involves two or three high-Magic units, and have yet to come up with a reliable one without them. I can't give you good advice because I just hop dragon veins to cheese the chapter. It's the only time where I find traditional a traditional tank to be effective (chapter 17 might be an exception too if I want to play it really slowly). Otherwise in situations like in chapter 19 I would find a unit capable of taking a lot of enemy hits and clear every enemy on enemy phase, so the unit has to be good enough to do a lot more than just take hits. Quote And what is “average defences”? The 25 Def from a Paladin or Hero? Yet the Paladin would have like a ten-point lead on Resistance. The 18 Def from a Berserker? That is equal or less than a Sorcerer, but the former will have like a fifteen-point lead in HP, while the latter will have significantly more Res. If we were going to compare a Berserker to a Sorcerer we would be comparing them in one defense stat and not both at the same time. Quote About Cornflakes, well, I specifically said +Magic Nohr Noble so that her defences were never that high (and yet are enough to hold basically any one position in the entire game.) Unless Corrin has -Def there is always some small chance that she gets defense blessed and some enemies don't attack her depending on the map and situation. It is pretty rare as I mentioned though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starburst Posted May 19, 2020 Share Posted May 19, 2020 On 5/17/2020 at 11:23 PM, AnonymousSpeed said: Effie has really good defense. She does not. Re-class her and you will see it for yourself. It is the Knight’s class bonuses what make you believe that she is a tank. As a Cavalier, Archer, Outlaw, Fighter…her Defence is average at best. Out of the Knight class-tree, she is a Player-Phase unit. A good one probably, but never a front-liner. Think about this: Effie passes great Strength bonuses and caps (probably the greatest), and a negative Defence modifier to her children. 23 hours ago, samthedigital said: If we were going to compare a Berserker to a Sorcerer we would be comparing them in one defense stat and not both at the same time. We can compare anything to anything, precisely because no one has cared to state what “average defences” mean. That was my point. I still do not know what units meet the criteria that you are trying to discuss. I thus told you that… On 5/17/2020 at 2:55 AM, starburst said: whatever defensive numbers Silas and +Magic Nohr Noble Cornflakes have are enough for all situations. And neither of them fit the two given options. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonymousSpeed Posted May 19, 2020 Share Posted May 19, 2020 23 hours ago, samthedigital said: That's if her defense doesn't get to a point where enemies won't attack her. There are also a lot of ways of fixing a unit's defense in this game while there are limited options to buff HP. 8 minutes ago, starburst said: She does not. Re-class her and you will see it for yourself. It is the Knight’s class bonuses what make you believe that she is a tank. Whether the defense comes from her personal bases or her class bases, I think the point remains. I got a lot more use out of high defense tanks than high HP ones. Effie certainly does have to worry about enemies being to smart to attack her (which is only true in some games) but I still found several places where she was able to fill a tank roll effectively. Another character reclassed to knight might do better, but maybe they'd get attacked even less. I don't know, I haven't actually tried partner/friendship sealing anyone into a knight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
samthedigital Posted May 19, 2020 Share Posted May 19, 2020 Quote Effie certainly does have to worry about enemies being to smart to attack her (which is only true in some games) but I still found several places where she was able to fill a tank roll effectively. In games where enemies do attack units they can't damage I would agree that a unit with really high defense would be more useful. I don't find Effie to be particularly useful for the long term, but that has more to do with things unrelated to her defense. Quote We can compare anything to anything, precisely because no one has cared to state what “average defences” mean. That was my point. It's probably safe to assume that we were meant to compare one defense at a time though. It's a difficult question without factoring in instances where a unit wants to tank multiple damage types, and it's not nearly as common. Otherwise you're overthinking the question a little. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mangasdeouf Posted May 19, 2020 Author Share Posted May 19, 2020 Of course I don't expect you to compare a knight's def to a troubadour's def, this would be bull. But we can compare a knight's def to a troubadour's res in situations where it is useful (for example, how Effie takes physical hits from fighters compared with how Elise takes magical hits from mages in CQ 8, where the kid can draw 1 or 2 mages without ever being in danger, meanwhile Effie takes good amounts of damage from fighters, amongst whom one or two top their high attack with quick draw and also fight alongside a few mages, where Effie has to survive both heavy physical and magical damage in one turn depending on the situation/tactics). Effie's def is only high at the beginning of ch9 where she has to shoot herself in the foot in order to draw the lancer if you want to take the front door, because otherwise the spear fighters don't go for her. And Effie under seal def is less than a minion. Her best class would have been archer for real. Too bad she's a knight and not good at it. Like we sad, Hp has 2 stat boosters: tonic and seraph robe. Seraph robes are a limited ressource, tonics cost 150g each. 10 chapters of tonics are worth 1500 g per unit for 1 tonic, 3000 for 2 etc. I doubt CQ gives you enough gold to pump up the HP of every no HP/middling HP unit you're using, assuming there are more than high HP units. Meanwhile def can also be boosted to insane levels just by pairing up with a captured knight/GK/general (I've captured a nice knight with inspiration and 2 other good skills in some run, it is nice to see him in my logbook). Good HP: around 30 before lv 10 (Hinata is included as well because he has Arthur without HP+5 level of HP as a myrmidon and only gets better as any actual bruiser class). Effie fails greatly in this category with average at best HP (23 base at level 6 in her tankiest possible class with 60% growth as a general and 55% as a knight, bringing her to...30.7 HP at level 20...that's 1 point higher than Arthur's base HP at level 7...alongside her shaky def with a personal base of 4 as a level 6 knight and only 55% growth in the highest def class, she is the most glass-canonny knight I've seen since Amelia who was facing weaker ennemies anyway and didn't suffer from stat seals and debuffs or poison strike combos, getting RNG-screwed with Effie in HP is unforgiving since her HP is only good AFTER promotion and still not that good compared with units who have her General HP as unpromoted units, and her speed doesn't forgive her for being screwed in anything else since she needs to proc it ASAP and get to her lv 20 spd very fast in order to avoid being doubled, since her lv 20 spd as a knight is only 12.7, which for the ones telling Effie doubles is the proof that they have used an RNG-blessed, or should I say RNG-sanctified Effie, because 12 spd doubles jack shit past ch8 in hard, and even in normal it doesn't double much). Arthur, Azama, Hinata, reclassed Subaki (sky knight has 0% hp growth...), royal heirs (Ryoma and Xander), Benny, Charlotte, Keaton, base Kaden and basara Kaden (because his class has 10% HP growth, the same as myrmidons, which is barely passable), basara Hinoka, reclassed Hayato (50% personal growth as lv 1), Takumi is on the edge due to no natural access to a good HP class, Odin in a good HP class (although not practical), Leo. These are the units with high HP in Fates. They can all get around 35-40 hp by the time they catch up to royal heirs. Ryoma has 16 base def, whichis decent, his only bad defensive stat is res, and Xander has even more HP and def (his own def isn't that high for his archetype but he's like the reincarnation of Duessel with 8 mov, and his prf let him have more def than he has otherwise, I think apart from HP a decent Silas may surpass Xander at one point, especially being more available so he deserves stat boosters to fix his downsides and having probably better spd/res unless early promoted, but no 1-2 weapon hurts him and magic weapons aren't his forte). Obviously Revelations Silas has the best balance of HP/def/res in the game with passable speed, although Benny can have a word with him after catching up in HP or taking HP +5. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Mir Posted May 19, 2020 Share Posted May 19, 2020 (edited) 6 hours ago, mangasdeouf said: Effie's def is only high at the beginning of ch9 where she has to shoot herself in the foot in order to draw the lancer if you want to take the front door, because otherwise the spear fighters don't go for her. And Effie under seal def is less than a minion. Her best class would have been archer for real. Too bad she's a knight and not good at it. Why the hell would I charge in from the front when it's ten billion percent smarter to just surprise them from the back door??? Losing 6 defense means jack shit when nothing else can capitalize because the ones that could've are already dead, after all. 6 hours ago, mangasdeouf said: Arthur, Azama, Hinata, reclassed Subaki (sky knight has 0% hp growth...), royal heirs (Ryoma and Xander), Benny, Charlotte, Keaton, base Kaden and basara Kaden (because his class has 10% HP growth, the same as myrmidons, which is barely passable), basara Hinoka, reclassed Hayato (50% personal growth as lv 1), Takumi is on the edge due to no natural access to a good HP class, Odin in a good HP class (although not practical), Leo. These are the units with high HP in Fates. They can all get around 35-40 hp by the time they catch up to royal heirs. Ryoma has 16 base def, whichis decent, his only bad defensive stat is res, and Xander has even more HP and def (his own def isn't that high for his archetype but he's like the reincarnation of Duessel with 8 mov, and his prf let him have more def than he has otherwise, I think apart from HP a decent Silas may surpass Xander at one point, especially being more available so he deserves stat boosters to fix his downsides and having probably better spd/res unless early promoted, but no 1-2 weapon hurts him and magic weapons aren't his forte). Obviously Revelations Silas has the best balance of HP/def/res in the game with passable speed, although Benny can have a word with him after catching up in HP or taking HP +5. Out of those, Arthur has to worry about getting critted, to say nothing of the fact that he sucks massively, Azama can't fight until promotion, Charlotte also sucks massively, reclassing Hinoka, Kaden and Hayato is questionable, Subaki struggles to do damage (and sucks in general), and Odin ALSO isn't very good. Also, saying someone "deserves" stat boosters is fallacious. Edited May 19, 2020 by Shadow Mir Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Karnage Posted May 19, 2020 Share Posted May 19, 2020 I don't see how this is relevant specifically to Fates, I'm going to move this to general Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonymousSpeed Posted May 19, 2020 Share Posted May 19, 2020 51 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said: Out of those, Arthur has to worry about getting critted, to say nothing of the fact that he sucks massively, Azama can't fight until promotion, Charlotte also sucks massively, reclassing Hinoka, Kaden and Hayato is questionable, Subaki struggles to do damage (and sucks in general), and Odin ALSO isn't very good. Are there any units in Fire Emblem that you actually like? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
null Posted May 19, 2020 Share Posted May 19, 2020 Higher defense. What's the point of having extra HP when it gets torn through so easily because of enemy attacks? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabulously Olivier Posted May 19, 2020 Share Posted May 19, 2020 (edited) I find either to be counter-productive. HP without defenses doesn't work for multiple combats, but, for example, units in Fates tend to be way too fragile because of unacceptably poor hp that results in a lot of units getting one-shotted who really shouldn't be. I like my units to be either durable in terms of both hp and at least one of their defenses, or faster, more fragile dodge tanks. That's what I actually find effective. Edited May 19, 2020 by Fabulously Olivier Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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