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While I do like FE15's plot and think that it's among the better in the series, I'm gonna have to agree with Otts on this one; Alm never at any point needs Celica's guidance or fails due to not having it, despite Celica having to rely on Alm and fails due to not having him.

 

22 minutes ago, Baldrick said:

Alm thinks Celica is better than him at finding peaceful solutions to conflict.

The story does a bad job at showing this; Alm is more likely to dash headlong into the battle, but Celica fights when push comes to shove too, and there aren't combat scenarios that are avoided by Celica-heck, she even goes out of her way to fight Grieth and the boys. She is MORE compasjsionate, but Alm is very compassionate by nature anyways.

23 minutes ago, Baldrick said:

Alm thinks his feelings for Celica is that motivates him to find peaceful solutions to conflict.

In which case, Celica fufilled her role in the plot in the prologue, when they were children. Heck, even then, Alm seems to be compassionate. I think that it's fair to say that even without the character development Alm gets, he'd find the peaceful solutions to combat that he did.

24 minutes ago, Baldrick said:

Alm thinks Celica taught him how to find peaceful solutions to conflict.

Again, I don't really think this is brought up anywhere. Alm just seems to be a really nice guy.

26 minutes ago, Baldrick said:

Alm thinks Celica is inclined to argue for finding peaceful solutions to conflict.

She doesn't really do this in the story, though. She does argue once at the end of Act 2, but after that, she doesn't exactly go out of her way to avoid taking down brigands. Not any more than Alm, at least.

28 minutes ago, Baldrick said:

Alm is using hyperbole to reinforce his previous line, that he couldn't be happy without Celica.

Which would farther reinforce the "Alm is a nice guy" point, actually. He's saying it to make Celica feel better, not because he'd just fight mindlessly without her.

 

My point being, I don't see Alm's character clashing with Celica's enough-Alm is too nice of a guy for that to happen. I sorta see it as Celica playing the role of the naive princess, Alm playing the role of RD Ike: Being a champ that everyone in-game loves but invalidates the more flawed, other lord. (Who's a mage too, ironically.)

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My point being, I don't see Alm's character clashing with Celica's enough-Alm is too nice of a guy for that to happen.

The previous two times they had met face-to-face, they had an ideological clash. At the end of Act 2, when Celica tells Alm not to fight Rigel, instead find a peaceful solution. Alm refuses and fights anyway. And when they first re-unite in Act 5, she tells him not to fight Duma and rescue her, instead let Jedah sacrifice her to Duma. He again refuses and fights anyway.

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I sorta see it as Celica playing the role of the naive princess, Alm playing the role of RD Ike: Being a champ that everyone in-game loves but invalidates the more flawed, other lord. (Who's a mage too, ironically.)

I think Alm is the naive one, actually. He's quite sheltered in Act 1, it's the closest thing he has to a flaw.

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Are people seriously going with the nonsense of Alm needing to be an ass to have a meaningful ideological clash with Celica? Because that's stupid if so. Alm and Celica disagree and have clashes in ideologies just fine.

Also, Alm spends a ton of time swooning over Celica and even had ANOTHER scene of needing to be saved by Celica with the whole mirror shtick. 

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6 hours ago, Baldrick said:

Alm doesn't need Celica's help to uphold his ideals, that's not the emotional support he needs from her.

You've just said there isn't enough instances to support taking that line of Alm's literally. Your interpretation fits the text of that one line, but not the context of the rest of the game.

---

Celica: Come on! There’s no secret princess! The Zofian royal family is dead!

If you take that line literally, then Celica is not actually princess Anthiese. But this does not mean the game is inconsistent as to Celica's true identity.

 

If an interpretation has a basis in the text, does it make it inherently a legitimate interpretation? Would you say "Celica is not princess Anthiese" is a legitimate interpretation?

If we were to get into some high concept argument of the essence of the word princess and what it represents for the collective consciousness.

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12 hours ago, Baldrick said:

Alm thinks Celica is better than him at finding peaceful solutions to conflict.

- Alm thinks his feelings for Celica is that motivates him to find peaceful solutions to conflict.

- Alm thinks Celica taught him how to find peaceful solutions to conflict.

- Alm thinks Celica is inclined to argue for finding peaceful solutions to conflict.

A couple things.
 

1. How are these any different from my interpretation? as they are basically amounting to different ways of the exact same interpretation in that he needs Celica to help him think of more peaceful solutions rather than just brute forcing the problem. I agree that is what the story is going for. Celica and Alm are supposed to be two halves of a greater whole. That much is made obvious by the narrative. At least that’s what it wants me take away from the narrative but I would argue it doesn’t do that very well.

2. those interpretations aren’t shown very well in the narrative. Alm is never really shown to take the more violent approach first. He’s always willing to take the more peaceful solution first. if the point of the narrative is that he’s supposed to be Celica’s complimentary opposite where he’s supposed to take the more reckless and violent solution first and not think about other more peaceful solutions, they didn’t showcase that very well. In fact he’s more willing to take the more peaceful route rather than the more violent one as shown with Delthea, Tatiana, And Zeke. Like it’s just a little inconsistent with that theme. There should be more instances of him taking that “attack and ask questions later” approach because as it stands he doesn’t really do that. I mean I guess you could argue him being consistently rewarded for taking the peaceful solution is a good showcase of the story’s themes regarding those duelistic ideals but it comes at the cost of proper build up to the Rudolf confrontation if you ask me.

 

 

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You deleted the part in my post where I answered 1, and my response to Benice covers 2, I think.


I didn’t realise you were one of the directors at IS, since that’s the only way you’d be qualified to claim what the story is supposed to be. I, a mere customer, played the game in observed what happened before coming to a conclusion.

- The conflict is caused by two gods with opposite philosophies; Mila, who values kindness and peaceful solutions to conflict, and Duma, who values strength and violent solutions to conflict.

They decide to separate and each rule one half of Valentia; Mila’s country is Zofia, and Duma’s is Rigel.

- Alm is raised in Zofia, by a Rigellian.

- Alm sometimes finds violent solutions (e.g. fight Rigel, kill Duma) and sometimes finds peaceful solutions (e.g. freeing Delthea instead of killing her)

- In the climax, Duma supposes that he and Mila made a mistake, and bids Alm to rule with both strength and kindness.

All of this is also in the original Gaiden, by the way.

My conclusion, based on all this: Alm is the ideal ruler who represents both philosophies.

Your opinion seems to be based on simply what you want the game to be. When the evidence doesn’t fit, instead of evaluating your opinion, you say the game is wrong.

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1 hour ago, Baldrick said:

Alm is the ideal ruler who represents both philosophies.

Y’see here’s the misunderstanding lies in that I completely agree with this. My problem with the narrative in how it all really connects. Yeah you’re right Alm’s character arc is about embodying both philosophies of Duma and Mila by the end of the narrative. Which is the key thing by the end of the narrative. This story isn’t exactly subtle with its themes and ideas. Hell there are multiple instances in this story where it outright explicitly explains the themes and ideas to the player. Again it’s not exactly subtle. Alm and Celica are duel protagonists who’s relationship and clashing ideals are supposed to reflect that of the same conflict between the sibling gods of Valentia, Duma and Mila. Their argument at the end of act is a mirror of Duma and Mila’s argument in the memory prism. 

That much is made obvious due to various factors. Alm is supposed to represent Duma’s ideals of strength in that one should have the strength and resolve to fight and fend for themselves but in taking those ideals to the extreme he falls numb to kindness. Celica is supposed to represent Mila’s ideals of kindness in that one should use their power to help others and not resort to meaningless bloodshed. However, in doing so she lacks the strength and resolve to protect herself from those who would intend to take advantage of her. 
 

if that’s not the intention of the narrative I don’t know what is. Alm and Celica’s respective character arcs are supposed to be about them realizing the faults in their ideals and that without pieces of the other within themselves they never would’ve succeeded which is made evident when they reunite in Duma tower. This reunion only occurs after being punished for the flaws in their ideals as their character arcs reach their natural conclusions. Celica forsaking herself to Jedah who takes advantage of her kindness to save her friends and Alm killing his own father in a bid to end the war between Zofia and Rigel. It is here where the two reconcile and are able to realize that alone they will fail but together they possess the strength necessary to slay the fell god Duma. Duma falls due to their combined strength and bestows his final words onto the two who will now rule over a new Valentia to learn from his and Mila’s mistakes. He tells them to make Valentia a strong nation filled with Mila’s love. A combination of his and Mila’s ideals symbolized through the Alm and Celica’s marriage as they rule over a now united Valentia. The two kingdoms once divided due to differing ideals now united under the marriage of the best of those two ideals. 
 

Now you tell me, did I misunderstand anything about the point of this narrative?

The problem I have with this narrative is that I understand the point of the narrative but that doesn’t make it good. Execution is what matters and I don’t think this story executes on its ideas very well

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37 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

Now you tell me, did I misunderstand anything about the point of this narrative?

- Alm always embodied both philosophies. From the very beginning, when he joined the Deliverance both to prove his (and Mycen’s) strength and help the people of Zofia.

- Alm never grew numb to kindness, and killing Rudolf was not a result of him being numb to kindness.

Compare Berkut, who is numb to kindness. When Rinea was kind to him in Act 5, he did not recognise it and thought she was mocking him. This is clearly the result of him being raised with Duma’s philosophy only.

- Delthea’s rescue shows Alm does not rely on Celica in the way you claim.

 

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3 minutes ago, Baldrick said:

Alm always embodied both philosophies. From the very beginning, when he joined the Deliverance both to prove his (and Mycen’s) strength and help the people of Zofia.

If this is the case then what the fuck was the point of Celica? If Alm already represents both ideologies then why is Celica even a thing in this story? What thematic purpose does she serve if not to act as Alm’s complimentary opposite? If Alm does not need her in order to realize the faults in his ideals(as in this case he would be a flawless static protagonist and thus have no need for a thematic foil of that nature). Is it to just give him a romance partner? That’s a little shallow. The problem with this interpretation is that it neglects Celica’s role in this story.

 

9 minutes ago, Baldrick said:

Alm never grew numb to kindness, and killing Rudolf was not a result of him being numb to kindness.

And that’s the problem! Again what else is it supposed to symbolize. Sure it could symbolize Alm taking down the old generation but that doesn’t explain why it’s so tragic and the effect it has on his character afterwards if it was solely a generational thing because it’s treated as a narrative punishment for him. If it was solely a generational theme then there would be no need to narratively punish him like that as he should be rewarded for fulfilling the themes of the narrative as that’s how thematically relevent story telling works. 

 

13 minutes ago, Baldrick said:

Compare Berkut, who is numb to kindness. When Rinea was kind to him in Act 5, he did not recognise it and thought she was mocking him. This is clearly the result of him being raised with Duma’s philosophy only.

 

And that’s why his character works

 

13 minutes ago, Baldrick said:

Delthea’s rescue shows Alm does not rely on Celica in the way you claim.

And that’s the problem 

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25 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

If this is the case then what the fuck was the point of Celica?

Celica showcases way more to Zofia than Alm does. She also shows the best of Mila, what's going on outside of Alm's war, the struggles and tie ins with the royal line, displaying the current state of Zofia, dealing with the rest of the bandits and pirates and she even shows the problems of being too reliant on gods. Which is a general issue as a whole than just Mila. While Alm is showing Duma's ideals and other things that go without much explaining. 

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32 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

If this is the case then what the fuck was the point of Celica?

Representation of Mila’s philosophy. Just because Alm represents both, it does not mean he wasn’t taking Duma’s position at the end of act 2.

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Sure it could symbolize Alm taking down the old generation but that doesn’t explain why it’s so tragic and the effect it has on his character afterwards if it was solely a generational thing because it’s treated as a narrative punishment for him.

You don’t think a man killing his father unknowingly is tragic?

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And that’s the problem 

Again, I didn’t realise I was talking to the director of Echoes.

 

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1 hour ago, Baldrick said:

Representation of Mila’s philosophy. Just because Alm represents both, it does not mean he wasn’t taking Duma’s position at the end of act 2.

True but he doesn’t represent Duma’s ideals anywhere else and that’s where my problem lies.

 

1 hour ago, Baldrick said:

You don’t think a man killing his father unknowingly is tragic?

I’m not saying it isn’t tragic inherently because it is. I’m saying that if the message was indeed “Getting rid of the old generation” it shouldn’t be treated as tragic as it is because as it stands it’s treated like a horrible thing has happened to Alm. I mean he just killed his father. So it acts as a narrative punishment for him. If the message is at as you say it is that doesn’t explain what he’s being punished for. Cause the point of the story is uprooting the status quo and the old way. Getting rid of the old way should be treated with narrative reward not narrative punishment. If a character succeeds then good things ought to happen that’s just how that works. Celica trusts someone she shouldn’t in Jedah and is therefore narratively punished by by being forcibly turned into a witch. That’s how thematically relevant story telling works

 

1 hour ago, Baldrick said:

Again, I didn’t realise I was talking to the director of Echoes.

I am getting real tired of your condescending attitude.

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2 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

True but he doesn’t represent Duma’s ideals anywhere else and that’s where my problem lies.

"Oh, come on! What’s wrong with personal feelings?! All of you fought this far because you hold some kind of hope for the world. It’s man’s individual hopes and fears that shape the world. That drive it. And that’s how it SHOULD be. I truly believe that. Should we let the world crumble on a god’s whim? Or his absence?" -Alm, Act 5

 "I want to leave behind a world where we shape our lives by our own hands. Where we make our own mistakes and fix them—as many times as necessary. That’s a world worthy of a future." -Alm, Act 5

Duma firmly believes that man needs to stand without gods, and so does Alm.

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1 minute ago, Seazas said:

"Oh, come on! What’s wrong with personal feelings?! All of you fought this far because you hold some kind of hope for the world. It’s man’s individual hopes and fears that shape the world. That drive it. And that’s how it SHOULD be. I truly believe that. Should we let the world crumble on a god’s whim? Or his absence?" -Alm, Act 5

 "I want to leave behind a world where we shape our lives by our own hands. Where we make our own mistakes and fix them—as many times as necessary. That’s a world worthy of a future." -Alm, Act 5

Duma firmly believes that man needs to stand without gods, and so does Alm.

Okay but where else are these ideals showcased thematically? Where else does Alm showcase resolve through strength that which the narrative emphasizes and as such is either punished or rewarded for it. I can name one where he is punished for killing his father but besides that I can’t name any other significant ones

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1 minute ago, Ottservia said:

Okay but where else are these ideals showcased thematically? Where else does Alm showcase resolve through strength that which the narrative emphasizes and as such is either punished or rewarded for it. I can name one where he is punished for killing his father but besides that I can’t name any other significant ones

They're showcased purely by Alm taking the falchion and shoving it in Duma's head. He doesn't let his journey nor grief at losing his family stop him and he stays strong. Him and his army proving the strength of man and taking down Duma and his followers.

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2 minutes ago, Seazas said:

They're showcased purely by Alm taking the falchion and shoving it in Duma's head. He doesn't let his journey nor grief at losing his family stop him and he stays strong. Him and his army proving the strength of man and taking down Duma and his followers.

Okay but that’s not what I’m asking for. That moment is a good thematic moment but how does it connect to the rest of the story and Alm’s character arc? Where’s the nuance? Where else does Alm embody Duma’s ideals in this story. Any in act 1? 3? 4 maybe? None that I can really think of. I mean there are a few small instances in act 1 I can think of like when he charges into a bandit camp to try and save Silque but besides that and a couple instances of such characterization(like his argument with Celica) there really aren’t that many examples I can think of 

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5 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

Okay but that’s not what I’m asking for. That moment is a good thematic moment but how does it connect to the rest of the story and Alm’s character arc? Where’s the nuance? Where else does Alm embody Duma’s ideals in this story. Any in act 1? 3? 4 maybe? None that I can really think of. I mean there are a few small instances in act 1 I can think of like when he charges into a bandit camp to try and save Silque but besides that and a couple instances of such characterization(like his argument with Celica) there really aren’t that many examples I can think of 

In the themes of his character? Alm succeeding in creating a dynasty without gods nor much issues of classism living up to what Duma wanted is a good example.

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7 minutes ago, Seazas said:

In the themes of his character? Alm succeeding in creating a dynasty without gods nor much issues of classism living up to what Duma wanted is a good example.

Okay but again that’s not what I’m asking for. Are there any instances from acts 1-4 that showcase him emboding duma’s ideals. He succeeds in the end because of them but how else are they integrated into his character and the arc his character follows. As far as I can tell, he doesn’t embody those ideals and if so it’s barely noticeable aside from a few key instances. 

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1 hour ago, Ottservia said:

True but he doesn’t represent Duma’s ideals anywhere else and that’s where my problem lies.

You've literally gone from saying "Alm represents the extreme of Duma" to "Alm doesn't represent Duma", all because you can't admit he represents both Duma and Mila.

"Alm is supposed to represent Duma’s ideals of strength in that one should have the strength and resolve to fight and fend for themselves but in taking those ideals to the extreme he falls numb to kindness."

You'll say anything if it means you can bash Echoes.

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 If a character succeeds then good things ought to happen that’s just how that works. 

Mycen: Indeed. For once you march on Rigel, you place yourself in the hands of destiny. You won’t be able to stop the events that unfold. No one will wish you well. Many will even try to stop you; unexpected tragedy is sure to follow. That is the price of what you are about to undertake.

Alm: ……

Mycen: So I ask again: Are you ready to take the lives of others into your hands? Are you ready to shoulder all of their burdens? Their desires? And are you ready to fight and bleed until Zofia and all of Valentia is saved?

 

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I am getting real tired of your condescending attitude.

Stop talking as though your opinion is fact and ignoring the evidence I am providing, then.

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41 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

Okay but again that’s not what I’m asking for. Are there any instances from acts 1-4 that showcase him emboding duma’s ideals. He succeeds in the end because of them but how else are they integrated into his character and the arc his character follows. As far as I can tell, he doesn’t embody those ideals and if so it’s barely noticeable aside from a few key instances. 

His entire journey, his choice to fight in the end of Act 2 despite Celica's disagreements, and proving himself through might despite the developing doubts about his connection to Mycen (challenged about that throughout Act 3) align with Duma. 

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43 minutes ago, Baldrick said:

You've literally gone from saying "Alm represents the extreme of Duma" to "Alm doesn't represent Duma", all because you can't admit he represents both Duma and Mila.

"Alm is supposed to represent Duma’s ideals of strength in that one should have the strength and resolve to fight and fend for themselves but in taking those ideals to the extreme he falls numb to kindness."

You'll say anything if it means you can bash Echoes.

Now it’s clear to me that you’re completely misunderstanding my argument. I’m saying Alm is supposed to represent Duma’s ideals but the problem is that he doesn’t. It’s thematically inconsistent with everything the narrative sets up and tries to deliver on. In that way I think it’s bad writing. The story wants me to believe he embodies those ideals but that’s not what it’s showing me

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No matter how many examples I (or Seazas) provide, you just say "OK but give me more examples". There's no point in arguing with someone who just shifts the goalposts every time.

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3 minutes ago, Baldrick said:

No matter how many examples I (or Seazas) provide, you just say "OK but give me more examples". There's no point in arguing with someone who just shifts the goalposts every time.

It’s not like the examples you provide aren’t good heck Seazas’s recent post is making rethink some things. It’s just that your examples kinda misunderstand my point. Alm is supposed to represent Duma’s ideals but that’s barely if at all shown within the narrative itself. In fact he’s more representative of Mila than he is Duma and that’s really the problem I have with it. Celica is supposed to be the thing that allows him to hold himself back kinda like how Rinea is with Berkut. But the problem Alm doesn’t need her for anything. He’s perfectly fine without her help. He’s never lost without her or anything really. She needs him though. She’s completely lost without him. Again it’s just very thematically inconsistent 

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4 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

It’s not like the examples you provide aren’t good 

You're not treating them as such, you just say "OK" and pivot to another talking point, and you never recall the points I have made in my previous posts.

4 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

Celica is supposed to be the thing that allows him to hold himself back kinda like how Rinea is with Berkut. But the problem Alm doesn’t need her for anything.

Like so, I have already established Alm has a different upbringing to Berkut, it doesn't make sense for him to have the flaws Berkut has due to his upbringing.

 

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4 hours ago, Ottservia said:

f this is the case then what the fuck was the point of Celica? If Alm already represents both ideologies then why is Celica even a thing in this story?

Because the story exists to show that Alm is perfect and wonderful and his supposed co-main is in fact an incomplete/inferior version of him, which is why the ending places Alm as the clear ruler of Valentia and Celica as his consort/supporter.

It's kind of a garbage story.

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