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2 minutes ago, Seazas said:

If she followed Alm's way she would've been apart of the war and focused on taking Rudolf down. Celica does find a lot of truths and uses them to her benefit, she directly provides the power of a powerful Duma Faithful member to boost Alm's strength to successfully conquer the rest of Rigel. She and Alm naturally would be similar to each other in some ways and having to fight is one of them. This is Fire Emblem of course there's going to be fighting. Celica never contradicted herself, she casted her own "judgement" since the beginning of her route and treats fighting as a matter of self defense. 

Alm is different from her since war is war and he even says that anyone he meets on the battlefield is his enemy (Tatiana's conversation). Alm shows to have a simple approach that works well in war. He's studier but less malleable since he directly loses without Celica's help and without her, he dies without knowing the truth. Celica is less sturdy emotionally but proved to be more malleable. She definitely has wisdom, proving by the sound judgement to pursue a major gamebreaker such as Mila and learning many things Alm did not learn canonically. Her occasional poor decision came from a place of intense emotion (largely due to her past) and/or distrust and that's especially because of her past. She tends to think a lot more about other factors and the bigger picture, having a big passive charm that earned many others fighting for her purely out of gratitude. That goes hand in hand with Alm's might and firm passion held unwaveringly throughout SOV.

No, the problem is that Celica contradicts her own words. She insists that finding Mila is their one and only goal, but she ends up doing side jobs for Zofia rather than focusing on finding Mila. In the end, Celica already proved herself to not focus on the very goal that she insists on going through. She's been on and on about how the world needs the gods to fix things, but ends up relying on herself and companions as humans to fix several problems, rather than rely on gods. 

For all her words, she doesn't back them up. She doesn't rely on gods to fix things, despite insisting that that is what they should do. 

Her so called wisdom is not actual wisdom that she is preached as. She ends up only proving Alm more and more right, while she's been in the wrong the entire time. In the end, Alm saying that he needed her wisdom is simply not true. He doesn't need her, because in the end, nothing she did are things that he couldn't do himself.

She would have had a point if her point actually held any truth or merit, but they simply don't. She's wrong, Alm's right, her wisdom means nothing in the end.

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2 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

No, the problem is that Celica contradicts her own words. She insists that finding Mila is their one and only goal, but she ends up doing side jobs for Zofia rather than focusing on finding Mila. In the end, Celica already proved herself to not focus on the very goal that she insists on going through. She's been on and on about how the world needs the gods to fix things, but ends up relying on herself and companions as humans to fix several problems, rather than rely on gods. 

For all her words, she doesn't back them up. She doesn't rely on gods to fix things, despite insisting that that is what they should do. 

Her so called wisdom is not actual wisdom that she is preached as. She ends up only proving Alm more and more right, while she's been in the wrong the entire time. In the end, Alm saying that he needed her wisdom is simply not true. He doesn't need her, because in the end, nothing she did are things that he couldn't do himself.

She would have had a point if her point actually held any truth or merit, but they simply don't. She's wrong, Alm's right, her wisdom means nothing in the end.

That isn't contradictory, she directly says to Saber that she wants to help as many as she can. She'd do "side jobs" because they don't detract from her goal. Mila is the overall goal, Celica doesn't stop going for it, she simply sticks true to her word and goes out of her way to help.

...Celica literally does rely on gods to fix things. She firmly believes that all is lost without Mila, which is fair considering they're the foundation of Valentia.

You're just repeating points I've already debunked. She does have wisdom and starts off the game knowing more than Alm does at the end of Act 1 already. She makes sound decisions with the more rash ones always coming from emotion. Celica also was fairly right since Mila's blessing is the entire reason Alm could wield Falchion and slay Duma. Alm didn't do everything without gods, showing that some of Celica's ideals had merit. He needed her since it's proven in game that he would've fell in battle otherwise. 

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1 hour ago, Seazas said:

That isn't contradictory, she directly says to Saber that she wants to help as many as she can. She'd do "side jobs" because they don't detract from her goal. Mila is the overall goal, Celica doesn't stop going for it, she simply sticks true to her word and goes out of her way to help.

...Celica literally does rely on gods to fix things. She firmly believes that all is lost without Mila, which is fair considering they're the foundation of Valentia.

You're just repeating points I've already debunked. She does have wisdom and starts off the game knowing more than Alm does at the end of Act 1 already. She makes sound decisions with the more rash ones always coming from emotion. Celica also was fairly right since Mila's blessing is the entire reason Alm could wield Falchion and slay Duma. Alm didn't do everything without gods, showing that some of Celica's ideals had merit. He needed her since it's proven in game that he would've fell in battle otherwise. 

You didn't debunk anything. You're repeating the things that Alm's already been doing. Celica doesn't prove herself to do anything different from Alm. Alm's BEEN doing the things that Celica's been doing, ultimately proving that Alm never once needed Celica's so called "wisdom", because he's ALREADY wise. Him killing Rudolf was one thing, but that's just it. Apart from that, which is shaky argument at best, Alm's situation was never truly challenged that he ever needed Celica's wisdom to guide him. 

Even Celica's "power boost" that she gives him is less her wisdom, and more just further cementing that Alm is right and fighting was the solution.

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Really the core of the issue with this narrative is that it wants you to think Alm is a flawed protagonist when he isn’t. There’s nothing wrong necessarily with a flawless paragon but that kind of character doesn’t work here simply because they want you to think Alm is wrong but he is never presented as such. It’s one thing to say that he’s wrong but the story never actually shows that. Any time he gets into a sticky situation. It’s never his fault but rather the fault of another outside of his control like with Berkut and the mirror. And again that would be fine if the story was written with that in mind but it kind of isn’t 

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2 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

You didn't debunk anything. You're repeating the things that Alm's already been doing. Celica doesn't prove herself to do anything different from Alm. Alm's BEEN doing the things that Celica's been doing, ultimately proving that Alm never once needed Celica's so called "wisdom", because he's ALREADY wise. Him killing Rudolf was one thing, but that's just it. Apart from that, which is shaky argument at best, Alm's situation was never truly challenged that he ever needed Celica's wisdom to guide him. 

Even Celica's "power boost" that she gives him is less her wisdom, and more just further cementing that Alm is right and fighting was the solution.

Nope, I 100% debunked most of your points because they were garbage. "Celica doesn't stay true to her word!!!1" Directly stays true to her word by helping out many as she can. "Well... she doesn't depend on gods!" The entire reason Jedah got the upper hand was due to Celica's dependence on gods. Alm does not have Celica's wisdom, he's simple minded but passionate and skilled. Along with being the embodiment of Duma's strength, he's physically, emotionally and mentally strong.

Celica has more wisdom but her past led to her being less trusting than ideal. Her path was perfectly valid too since without it, Alm wouldn't have opened the Sluice Gate. Hell, that gate is limited to the Royal line. Celica doing what she did helped Valentia a ton and having the wisdom seek the source of this entire mess is pretty smart. You'd immediately change your tune if you didn't have hindsight bias of Mila not being there. Without Celica as a character, Alm would die in the war. They work better together than apart and all Alm does is have a respectable passion and beliefs along with crushing whoever stands in his way. Not once has he shown an intense wisdom, he even blanked out on huge red flags that was his weird connection to Rigel lmao. He was too focused on battling everything right before him. 

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I agree with alot of the others: the story tries to tell one thing, only to show you another. They should have just left it alone, really.

Also, you might not want to just consider other people's points "garbage", it's kinda disrespectful to their feelings?

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1 hour ago, Julian Solo said:

Needing Mila to save the continent wasn’t technically wrong. Celica would be dead and Duma would have killed Alm if she didn’t seal Falchion for him to use later. The game just doesn’t tell Milas story well. 

Better than Gaiden where Mila never had an actual physical appearance. I feel like SOV did their best to work with what was provided.

3 hours ago, lightcosmo said:

I agree with alot of the others: the story tries to tell one thing, only to show you another. They should have just left it alone, really.

Also, you might not want to just consider other people's points "garbage", it's kinda disrespectful to their feelings?

I just find it garbage since the points are directly contradicted by the source material. It's also disrespectful to try and claim that a fan favorite character was completely worthless just because Alm didn't fail.

Also... leave it alone? The major things people whine about were literally in the original and SOV had no choice but to flesh it out. The brand? That was in Gaiden. Celica "failing"? That was in Gaiden too. Mila never had a presence in Gaiden either. Alm steamrolled Rigel in the original with zero challenge, at least Echoes gives Alm more trouble. SOV did their best and crafted a fully detailed timeline to make Valentia an actual thought through location. They also 100% succeeded in making Rudolf's plan less nonsensical than it was in Gaiden by having Halcyon be the one to tell Rudolf about the prophecy. Falchion, a huge important relic has no background story and randomly shows up in a chest within the original. 

The major things argued about Gaiden were headcanons taken too far like Alm being this "aggressive dude" when the actual script lines up with Echoes Alm's direction. Even Ghast: a hardcore Gaiden fan fell for the mistranslation trap and let his perceived notion of Alm stray far from the actual character. The most iconic Alm line from Gaiden is a mistranslation for crying out loud. 

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2 minutes ago, Seazas said:

I just find it garbage since the points are directly contradicted by the source material. It's also disrespectful to try and claim that a character was completely worthless just because Alm didn't fail.

I never said Celica was worthless. I’m just saying the narrative never says that she’s correct about anything. Again looking at every major plot point in the story. When does she ever truly succeed? Besides Barth and Greith, a lot of her victories are almost directly undercut by the duma faithful taking advantage of her kind nature. In that sense she’s always considered wrong by the narrative because she never actually has a true victory that isn’t undermined in someway. Where as Alm is constantly proven right because he has those victories. The only “victory” in my mind that’s undercut is the one against his father but he never has a “failure” before that. I mean he kinda can if you fail to save Mathilda or Delthea which is a start but not every player is going to experience that in fact I’d wager most players won’t what with resetting and Mila’s turnwheel. Which if that’s something that is critical to his character arc then it should not be an optional experience. 
 

Don’t take this wrong way though, I actually find Celica to be a well written character simply because she fails. She contradicts herself and gets punished for it. I simply find that it’s weird that the narrative sets these two up as two halves of a greater whole when it feels more like Alm is already perfect and Celica is just kinda there to make him look better. 

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13 hours ago, Seazas said:

Nope, I 100% debunked most of your points because they were garbage. "Celica doesn't stay true to her word!!!1" Directly stays true to her word by helping out many as she can. "Well... she doesn't depend on gods!" The entire reason Jedah got the upper hand was due to Celica's dependence on gods. Alm does not have Celica's wisdom, he's simple minded but passionate and skilled. Along with being the embodiment of Duma's strength, he's physically, emotionally and mentally strong.

Celica has more wisdom but her past led to her being less trusting than ideal. Her path was perfectly valid too since without it, Alm wouldn't have opened the Sluice Gate. Hell, that gate is limited to the Royal line. Celica doing what she did helped Valentia a ton and having the wisdom seek the source of this entire mess is pretty smart. You'd immediately change your tune if you didn't have hindsight bias of Mila not being there. Without Celica as a character, Alm would die in the war. They work better together than apart and all Alm does is have a respectable passion and beliefs along with crushing whoever stands in his way. Not once has he shown an intense wisdom, he even blanked out on huge red flags that was his weird connection to Rigel lmao. He was too focused on battling everything right before him. 

Wrong, that only proves MY point. She contradicts herself by saying that they should help people now. By doing this, she now contradicts her original purpose which is to go save Mila as fast as possible, trying to insist that that will actually solve the problems. Not only was she wrong, but she ends up even delaying her goal by trying to focus on saving others, all in all further proving that Alm is the correct, and they should do something now, rather than let some god be the one to save them. 

You didn't debunk me even 1%. 

I pointed out repeatedly that Alm doesn't need Celica's wisdom, because Alm's ALREADY been doing what you are claiming Celica is doing. Saving helpless villagers? Alm's been doing that already, especially with how he even goes as far as to try and save Delthea as well, which Clive very much tries to say they shouldn't focus on, but Alm refutes him. 

And Celica? She doens't prove her wisdom by doing what Alm's doing, and just fighing. 

You're literally trying to dance around the subject. You're ust reaching at this point, trying to justify every last bit of Celica's actions, but it actually further proves my point. You aren't debunking me. You're debunking yourself. 

 

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1 hour ago, Julian Solo said:

Needing Mila to save the continent wasn’t technically wrong. Celica would be dead and Duma would have killed Alm if she didn’t seal Falchion for him to use later. The game just doesn’t tell Milas story well. 

If Mila didn't seal Falchion then Rudolf could have just went and killed Duma himself (which is a massive plot hole in the original Gaiden). Or just handed it to Alm to save him the trouble. She wasn't really helping anyone but Duma with that act.

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30 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

I never said Celica was worthless. I’m just saying the narrative never says that she’s correct about anything. Again looking at every major plot point in the story. When does she ever truly succeed? Besides Barth and Greith, a lot of her victories are almost directly undercut by the duma faithful taking advantage of her kind nature. In that sense she’s always considered wrong by the narrative because she never actually has a true victory that isn’t undermined in someway. Where as Alm is constantly proven right because he has those victories. The only “victory” in my mind that’s undercut is the one against his father but he never has a “failure” before that. I mean he kinda can if you fail to save Mathilda or Delthea which is a start but not every player is going to experience that in fact I’d wager most players won’t what with resetting and Mila’s turnwheel. Which if that’s something that is critical to his character arc then it should not be an optional experience. 
 

Don’t take this wrong way though, I actually find Celica to be a well written character simply because she fails. She contradicts herself and gets punished for it. I simply find that it’s weird that the narrative sets these two up as two halves of a greater whole when it feels more like Alm is already perfect and Celica is just kinda there to make him look better. 

I wasn't talking about you, the other user is claiming Alm somehow has her wisdom. When he never showcases that "wisdom" and just acts out of his heart. Celica does have unique victories of her own, she stood to help as many as she could and succeeded. She also embraces her identity and doesn't try to hide from it anymore. She rapidly grows as someone of her own and learns more and more. She learns all sorts of truths Alm never did throughout his campaign. While Alm is just simple minded but gets stronger and more experienced with battle. So they compliment each other well since they have different ways of going about things but they can work with each other well.

15 minutes ago, Jotari said:

If Mila didn't seal Falchion then Rudolf could have just went and killed Duma himself (which is a massive plot hole in the original Gaiden). Or just handed it to Alm to save him the trouble. She wasn't really helping anyone but Duma with that act.

The Falchion is still a blessing by the gods which is entirely created to slay Duma and Mila when they go mad. It wasn't some humanly crafted tool, so both ideals of humanity needing to stand on their own with gods having their own value come together decently. Alm and Celica even represent Duma and Mila and their respective ideals. Just not to go overboard with either.

27 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Wrong, that only proves MY point. She contradicts herself by saying that they should help people now. By doing this, she now contradicts her original purpose which is to go save Mila as fast as possible, trying to insist that that will actually solve the problems. Not only was she wrong, but she ends up even delaying her goal by trying to focus on saving others, all in all further proving that Alm is the correct, and they should do something now, rather than let some god be the one to save them. 

You didn't debunk me even 1%. 

I pointed out repeatedly that Alm doesn't need Celica's wisdom, because Alm's ALREADY been doing what you are claiming Celica is doing. Saving helpless villagers? Alm's been doing that already, especially with how he even goes as far as to try and save Delthea as well, which Clive very much tries to say they shouldn't focus on, but Alm refutes him. 

And Celica? She doens't prove her wisdom by doing what Alm's doing, and just fighing. 

You're literally trying to dance around the subject. You're ust reaching at this point, trying to justify every last bit of Celica's actions, but it actually further proves my point. You aren't debunking me. You're debunking yourself. 

 

Nope, I did since you made an objectively incorrect argument that you never pursued. It wasn't a "now", she always went out of her way to help others. Early in Act 2 when she faces pirates, she believes that helping people would be ideal. Which is something Mila herself would do and aligns with Celica's ideals. It doesn't contradict her goals since she isn't taking part of the war and pursuing the Temple of Mila. Also, the only reason they even slay Duma was because of the gods helping them out and Alm doesn't die in the war was because of Halcyon and his blessings that were also provided by gods. Alm had a point about not letting everything become astray and hinge on gods, but they had their value and Celica's entire journey is the entire reason Alm survives the war. He was right but so was Celica since the true problem was at the source which she actively pursued, something Alm did not do.

You are wrong. Wasn't even a matter of "not fighting" it was WHERE to fight that Alm and Celica directly disagreed with. So no, this shitty idea you're pushing of "Celica wrong because she fights" is ludicrous. 

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5 minutes ago, Seazas said:

 

The Falchion is still a blessing by the gods which is entirely created to slay Duma and Mila when they go mad. It wasn't some humanly crafted tool, so both ideals of humanity needing to stand on their own with gods having their own value come together decently. Alm and Celica even represent Duma and Mila and their respective ideals. Just not to go overboard with either.

 

 

Uh...sure. But how does that remotely relate to what I said?

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2 minutes ago, Seazas said:

Nope, I did since you made an objectively incorrect argument that you never pursued. It wasn't a "now", she always went out of her way to help others. Early in Act 2 when she faces pirates, she believes that helping people would be ideal. Which is something Mila herself would do and aligns with Celica's ideals. It doesn't contradict her goals since she isn't taking part of the war and pursuing the Temple of Mila. Also, the only reason they even slay Duma was because of the gods helping them out and Alm doesn't die in the war was because of Halcyon and his blessings that were also provided by gods. Alm had a point about not letting everything become astray and hinge on gods, but they had their value and Celica's entire journey is the entire reason Alm survives the war. He was right but so was Celica since the true problem was at the source which she actively pursued, something Alm did not do.

You are wrong.

No, you are the one that's wrong.

Celica's point of the journey was that they have to find Mila and get her to solve the problems as soon as possible. By taking these side adventures and then you trying to say that "Mila would want this", you are trying to rationalize it. Celica going on her side adventures ultimately resulted in her actively delaying her journey's goal, and incessantly proving Alm's point. That they don't need gods. 

The entire point of Celica's journey, her beliefs, her theme, they are all basically proven wrong by her own actions. 

Her giving Alm a power boost or helping him out? 

They aren't done by her wisdom or supporting her theme. She's ultimately further proving Alm right in that she's using her position and title as a human and princess to basically say that Alm should keep fighting the war and winning, rather than solving things with the help of the gods.

You are dancing around the point.

But you never actually refuted my point. Celica's journey only proves that she was wrong. She only does what Alm's been doing. Alm's been helping people without needing Celica's "wisdom". The sluice gates? That was never Celica's wisdom. That was her being a princess. You could legit have had Conrad do it since he's also Zofian royalty. The charm? Plot device that could have easily been someone else.

The fact is, the game did a shitty job trying to make it seem that Alm actually needed Celica's wisdom. The point is, Alm was always wise.

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10 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Uh...sure. But how does that remotely relate to what I said?

You brought up Mila sealing it, just stating that even if Mila didn't blessed bloodlines by the gods still exist. Aka... themes ok. Not great, but what can you do.

9 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

No, you are the one that's wrong.

Celica's point of the journey was that they have to find Mila and get her to solve the problems as soon as possible. By taking these side adventures and then you trying to say that "Mila would want this", you are trying to rationalize it. Celica going on her side adventures ultimately resulted in her actively delaying her journey's goal, and incessantly proving Alm's point. That they don't need gods. 

The entire point of Celica's journey, her beliefs, her theme, they are all basically proven wrong by her own actions. 

Her giving Alm a power boost or helping him out? 

They aren't done by her wisdom or supporting her theme. She's ultimately further proving Alm right in that she's using her position and title as a human and princess to basically say that Alm should keep fighting the war and winning, rather than solving things with the help of the gods.

You are dancing around the point.

But you never actually refuted my point. Celica's journey only proves that she was wrong. She only does what Alm's been doing. Alm's been helping people without needing Celica's "wisdom". The sluice gates? That was never Celica's wisdom. That was her being a princess. You could legit have had Conrad do it since he's also Zofian royalty. The charm? Plot device that could have easily been someone else.

The fact is, the game did a shitty job trying to make it seem that Alm actually needed Celica's wisdom. The point is, Alm was always wise.

Alm never showed wisdom. Just passion and heart with reliability and strength. Alm's even reckless and rushed out to fight bandits the instant he heard someone was in trouble. He proved himself to Clive through combat ability and winning the battle with minimal losses not his wisdom.

No it's not proven wrong, Celica actually learns what happened to Mila and many other truths and experiences that add to her wisdom. Her journey completely benefitted the Deliverance since they would've been in a shitty spot if it wasn't for Celica. Also, her journey allowed Celica to grow as a character and accept her past a whole lot more. 

"Be someone else" is a shit excuse since it's still Celica the one acting and doing these things in benefit for Alm. The major thing Alm and Celica disagreed on was WHERE to fight not fighting at all. Celica didn't want to pursue a war while Alm saw it a necessity. That doesn't make her journey wrong. And you bring up Alm winning the war yet it went far beyond the war and Alm would've been screwed. SOV literally confirmed Alm would've died if Celica never had her journey. Alm is right about everything not needing to hinge on gods, but Celica was also right that gods have a lot of value. Their blessed bloodlines is the entire reason Alm and Celica beat Duma.

You are wrong, especially when you brought up fucking Conrad. The dude that not only wasn't in the original but is a non factor since he only came out BECAUSE of Anthiese. 

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12 minutes ago, Seazas said:

Alm never showed wisdom. Just passion and heart with reliability and strength. Alm's even reckless and rushed out to fight bandits the instant he heard someone was in trouble. He proved himself to Clive through combat ability and winning the battle with minimal losses not his wisdom.

No it's not proven wrong, Celica actually learns what happened to Mila and many other truths and experiences that add to her wisdom. Her journey completely benefitted the Deliverance since they would've been in a shitty spot if it wasn't for Celica. Also, her journey allowed Celica to grow as a character and accept her past a whole lot more. 

"Be someone else" is a shit excuse since it's still Celica the one acting and doing these things in benefit for Alm. The major thing Alm and Celica disagreed on was WHERE to fight not fighting at all. Celica didn't want to pursue a war while Alm saw it a necessity. That doesn't make her journey wrong. And you bring up Alm winning the war yet it went far beyond the war and Alm would've been screwed. SOV literally confirmed Alm would've died if Celica never had her journey. Alm is right about everything not needing to hinge on gods, but Celica was also right that gods have a lot of value. Their blessed bloodlines is the entire reason Alm and Celica beat Duma.

You are wrong, especially when you brought up fucking Conrad. The dude that not only wasn't in the original but is a non factor since he only came out BECAUSE of Anthiese. 

Now you're in denial. Alm's BEEN showing wisdom, repeatedly, where he's challenged by Clive, who tries to advice him to not save Delthea, only for Alm to rebuke him by saying that there's nothing different between saving a commoner from a princess, and ultimately, Alm is the one proven right when he does save Delthea. Clive even admits that he's wrong and Alm is right, ultimately proving even more that Alm is wise beyond the others. 

In the end, you're only trying to reach here by trying to assert that Celica doesn't contradict her own purpose and her journey at all by trying desperately to insist that she is wise. 

Sorry, but you need to face facts. Celica doesn't do anything that Alm isn't already shown capable of doing. All Celica does is further prove Alm's end goal in that they don't need to rely on some god to help others. That they don't need gods. Celica's own journey only further cements Alm's. 

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6 minutes ago, Seazas said:

Alm never showed wisdom. Just passion and heart with reliability and strength. Alm's even reckless and rushed out to fight bandits the instant he heard someone was in trouble. He proved himself to Clive through combat ability and winning the battle with minimal losses not his wisdom.

Except that he does. I think you’re misinterpreting what “wisdom” means in this context. Thematically speaking alright? When has Alm ever needed to take into Celica’s ideals in order to help him out of a tight spot or anything to that effect? Not once. That never happens. Omega is right here. Yes Celica’s charm helps him out of that situation with Berkut. But what does that say thematically? It’s not like Alm got himself into that situation. It was more so Berkut’s own insecurities that forced him to break the mirror. The charm has nothing to do with Celica as a character either. It’s just a charm that gets him out of that situation. It’s not like charm activates in response to his kindness or whatever. He just believes in Celica and it happens which I guess is to show the strong bond between them but that’s a little shallow. Also he does get a power up from her but that doesn’t really have anything to do with her ideals powering him or anything. It’s just kind of a power up nothing more. It shows the bond between them which is fine.

However, there’s no where in the story where Alm needs to realize that Celica’s ideals are what’s needed to solve a problem of any sort. If anything Celica’s ideals are proven wrong by the narrative more often than not because she’s never rewarded for those ideals. Name one instance in which she does something Alm wouldn’t do and is rewarded for doing so. You can’t because it never happens.

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17 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Now you're in denial. Alm's BEEN showing wisdom, repeatedly, where he's challenged by Clive, who tries to advice him to not save Delthea, only for Alm to rebuke him by saying that there's nothing different between saving a commoner from a princess, and ultimately, Alm is the one proven right when he does save Delthea. Clive even admits that he's wrong and Alm is right, ultimately proving even more that Alm is wise beyond the others. 

In the end, you're only trying to reach here by trying to assert that Celica doesn't contradict her own purpose and her journey at all by trying desperately to insist that she is wise. 

Sorry, but you need to face facts. Celica doesn't do anything that Alm isn't already shown capable of doing. All Celica does is further prove Alm's end goal in that they don't need to rely on some god to help others. That they don't need gods. Celica's own journey only further cements Alm's. 

Your "facts" are full of shit, Alm having good beliefs doesn't make him this wise godsend. Him not being the wise one doesn't mean he needs to be a jackass that thinks like Clive. He's a good guy like how he was in the original and comes out to help people. They simply have different ways of going about it with Celica's journey being the reason Alm survives. Celica has many learning experiences and works out her own things just like how Alm does. Celica is more wise while Alm is sturdy and strong. The only reason Alm and Celica even had the opportunity to help others were because of the gods to begin with.

16 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

Except that he does. I think you’re misinterpreting what “wisdom” means in this context. Thematically speaking alright? When has Alm ever needed to take into Celica’s ideals in order to help him out of a tight spot or anything to that effect? Not once. That never happens. Omega is right here. Yes Celica’s charm helps him out of that situation with Berkut. But what does that say thematically? It’s not like Alm got himself into that situation. It was more so Berkut’s own insecurities that forced him to break the mirror. The charm has nothing to do with Celica as a character either. It’s just a charm that gets him out of that situation. It’s not like charm activates in response to his kindness or whatever. He just believes in Celica and it happens which I guess is to show the strong bond between them but that’s a little shallow. Also he does get a power up from her but that doesn’t really have anything to do with her ideals powering him or anything. It’s just kind of a power up nothing more. It shows the bond between them which is fine.

However, there’s no where in the story where Alm needs to realize that Celica’s ideals are what’s needed to solve a problem of any sort. If anything Celica’s ideals are proven wrong by the narrative more often than not because she’s never rewarded for those ideals. Name one instance in which she does something Alm wouldn’t do and is rewarded for doing so. You can’t because it never happens.

Wrong. Alm and Celica represent themes and come together well but they do not need to be wrong  nor dependent on each other's ideals to properly best others. Celica fighting when she has to isn't an Alm specific approach that's asinine. They both work out their own problems and paths that laid before them. They literally only disagreed because of the approach to the war and the stuff you're rambling out is nothing but your interpretation. Both Gaiden and Echoes are about their bond and the importance of that bond than their fucking ideals. Their bond and journeys are what help them win with both of their ideals being right and two pieces to a greater whole. The Gods' importance and the importance of humanity. Both proven well through their experiences and largely independent journeys.

What a terrible circlejerk this whiny "Alm bad" thread is.

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2 minutes ago, Seazas said:

Your "facts" are full of shit, Alm having good beliefs doesn't make him this wise godsend. Him not being the wise one doesn't mean he needs to be a jackass that thinks like Clive. He's a good guy like how he was in the original and comes out to help people. They simply have different ways of going about it with Celica's journey being the reason Alm survives. Celica has many learning experiences and works out her own things just like how Alm does. Celica is more wise while Alm is sturdy and strong. The only reason Alm and Celica even had the opportunity to help others were because of the gods to begin with.

Uh huh. 

Sorry, but the story doesn't support that. The story only supports that Alm is wise and your opinion on Clive doesn't mean anything.The fact is, when Alm is challenged, he already has the answer that he ends up backing, thus the story shows that he is wise. 

And Celica doesn't show her wisdom that Alm claims he needs when he's been showing his own wisdom without needing hers. Add in the fact that Celica's "wisdom" is only further cementing what Alm's been saying, it only further proves that Alm never needed Celica's wisdom.

You've been repeating the same nonsense over and over that has already been debunked, and now you're just in denial and being extremely rude about it. It's kind of silly.

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5 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Uh huh. 

Sorry, but the story doesn't support that. The story only supports that Alm is wise and your opinion on Clive doesn't mean anything.The fact is, when Alm is challenged, he already has the answer that he ends up backing, thus the story shows that he is wise. 

And Celica doesn't show her wisdom that Alm claims he needs when he's been showing his own wisdom without needing hers. Add in the fact that Celica's "wisdom" is only further cementing what Alm's been saying, it only further proves that Alm never needed Celica's wisdom.

You've been repeating the same nonsense over and over that has already been debunked, and now you're just in denial and being extremely rude about it. It's kind of silly.

Not my opinion of Clive, he's a great character. But pushing this random idea and somehow pretending it's the entire themes are ridiculous. Alm's "answer" is nothing special since other characters were long saying and supporting what Alm believed regarding the noble vs commoner shit. Celica has a wisdom that Alm personally respects and she directly shows it by choosing to approach the problem at its source, while Alm puts all of his eggs in the Deliverance themed basket. Both corresponding each other well since they share similar ideas and desires to help people. Literally only disagreeing at the approach to the war. It's complete and utter nonsense that Alm has to essentially be a headless chicken without Celica nor can he be successful in what he believes. Alm finds value in Celica and there's nothing wrong with that. The game blatantly hinges on their dynamic bond too.

Them being so similar yet different in some aspects is why they play off each other good. The major theme was the Duma and Mila stuff, not the game treating Alm as flawed like this random headcanon you people have. 

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Just now, Seazas said:

Not my opinion of Clive, he's a great character. But pushing this random idea and somehow pretending it's the entire themes are ridiculous. Alm's "answer" is nothing special since other characters were long saying and supporting what Alm believed regarding the noble vs commoner shit. Celica has a wisdom that Alm personally respects and she directly shows it by choosing to approach the problem at its source, while Alm puts all of his eggs in the Deliverance themed basket. Both corresponding each other well since they share similar ideas and desires to help people. Literally only disagreeing at the approach to the war. It's complete and utter nonsense that Alm has to essentially be a headless chicken without Celica nor can he be successful in what he believes. Alm finds value in Celica and there's nothing wrong with that. The game blatantly hinges on their dynamic bond too. 

Too bad that the game never once shows that Celica's wisdom actually being really applied to Alm's journey. In the end, as @Ottservia said, Alm never once applies anything Celica's said to him, her "wisdom", into his journey. Not once. He's been showing nothing more than being a wise and charismatic leader that everyone supports and hardly ever proven wrong. 

Celica's support of Alm has never been anything more than superficial, from the charm to the power up, they were all things that weren't really by any "lesson" that Celica expressed that Alm's taken to heart. In the end, Celica's the one that saw Alm as the wise one saying how she forgot her ability to believe in others, whereas Alm's always believed in his. 

It'd be one thing if there was actually an incident that has Alm remember something Celica said or her knowledge actually being what saves the day, but... nope. 

 

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6 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Too bad that the game never once shows that Celica's wisdom actually being really applied to Alm's journey. In the end, as @Ottservia said, Alm never once applies anything Celica's said to him, her "wisdom", into his journey. Not once. He's been showing nothing more than being a wise and charismatic leader that everyone supports and hardly ever proven wrong. 

Celica's support of Alm has never been anything more than superficial, from the charm to the power up, they were all things that weren't really by any "lesson" that Celica expressed that Alm's taken to heart. In the end, Celica's the one that saw Alm as the wise one saying how she forgot her ability to believe in others, whereas Alm's always believed in his. 

It'd be one thing if there was actually an incident that has Alm remember something Celica said or her knowledge actually being what saves the day, but... nope. 

 

Alm doesn't need to apply it, his journey entirely reflects his own way and Celica reflects her own. They come together and play off their separate strengths well. Celica's lack of believing came purely from her past, doesn't mean she isn't smart since she easily handles an entire ragtag group against an army of pirates. Celica never applied any of what Alm told her either, she only really "learns her lesson" when they're together at the respective end of their journeys.

Alm isn't a wise leader, he's charismatic but never officially described as wise. This circlejerk of a thread pushes that idea yet it's never described. Alm proved himself with actions more than words, commonly being a capable person.

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Just now, Seazas said:

Alm doesn't need to apply it, his journey entirely reflects his own way and Celica reflects her own. They come together and play off their separate strengths well. Celica's lack of believing came purely from her past, doesn't mean she isn't smart since she easily handles an entire ragtag group against an army of pirates. Celica never applied any of what Alm told her either, she only really "learns her lesson" when they're together at the respective end of their journeys.

Alm isn't a wise leader, he's charismatic but never officially described as wise. This circlejerk of a thread pushes that idea yet it's never shown or described. Alm proved himself with actions more than words. 

Sorry, but that simply only goes to show that Alm doesn't actually NEED Celica's so called "wisdom" then. As I already said, he's already shown to be wise himself with how he treats people and is willing to forgive even people that have become his enemies, from Fernand to even Berkut. He's never once challenged in his beliefs that bites him. The only time something remotely close to that happened is killing Rudolf. 

Alm has been a wise leader, as the story has presented him. If you want to insist that he isn't a wise leader, then you should actually prove it with Alm actually screwing up, but that's pretty much impossible since the story always supports Alm no matter what and never lets him be wrong.

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20 minutes ago, Seazas said:

Wrong. Alm and Celica represent themes and come together well but they do not need to be wrong  nor dependent on each other's ideals to properly best others. Celica fighting when she has to isn't an Alm specific approach that's asinine. They both work out their own problems and paths that laid before them. They literally only disagreed because of the approach to the war and the stuff you're rambling out is nothing but your interpretation. Both Gaiden and Echoes are about their bond and the importance of that bond than their fucking ideals. Their bond and journeys are what help them win with both of their ideals being right and two pieces to a greater whole. The Gods' importance and the importance of humanity. Both proven well through their experiences and largely independent journeys.

 


 

 

3 minutes ago, Seazas said:

Alm doesn't need to apply it, his journey entirely reflects his own way and Celica reflects her own. They come together and play off their separate strengths well. Celica's lack of believing came purely from her past, doesn't mean she isn't smart since she easily handles an entire ragtag group against an army of pirates. Celica never applied any of what Alm told her either, she only really "learns her lesson" when they're together at the respective end of their journeys.

If  Alm doesn’t need to apply it why the hell does he say and I quote

“Don’t apologize. Just know that I need you, all right? Without your wisdom, all I know how to do is fight whatever’s in front of me. So please… Will you fight with me? Believe in me. Believe in US. Believe in our combined strength!” 
 

That is word for word what he says. He’s saying that without Celica all he knew was to just attack whatever was in front him. Which isn’t true. At no point in the narrative is this shown to be the case. He didn’t attack Tatiana or Zeke on sight. He was able to hold himself back against Delthea. He literally has a combat art that allows him to leave opponents at 1 hp without killing them. So his words here are provably false. That’s more than just interpretation at that point. That is quite literally what the text is outright admitting. 

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6 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Sorry, but that simply only goes to show that Alm doesn't actually NEED Celica's so called "wisdom" then. As I already said, he's already shown to be wise himself with how he treats people and is willing to forgive even people that have become his enemies, from Fernand to even Berkut. He's never once challenged in his beliefs that bites him. The only time something remotely close to that happened is killing Rudolf. 

Alm has been a wise leader, as the story has presented him. If you want to insist that he isn't a wise leader, then you should actually prove it with Alm actually screwing up, but that's pretty much impossible since the story always supports Alm no matter what and never lets him be wrong.

That stupid logic of "Alm has to lose or have beliefs bite him or others cannot matter to him" is the worst. If you're going to use dialogue then Alm directly says himself that he has a lot to learn and he's only made leader because of his connection to Mycen. He serves well with his combat ability and genuine heart. A capable leader worth relying on but never described as wise. Kindness =/= wisdom too so your Fernand point is irrelevant.

4 minutes ago, Ottservia said:


 

 

If  Alm doesn’t need to apply it why the hell does he say and I quote

“Don’t apologize. Just know that I need you, all right? Without your wisdom, all I know how to do is fight whatever’s in front of me. So please… Will you fight with me? Believe in me. Believe in US. Believe in our combined strength!” 
 

That is word for word what he says. He’s saying that without Celica all he knew was to just attack whatever was in front him. Which isn’t true. At no point in the narrative is this shown to be the case. He didn’t attack Tatiana or Zeke on sight. He was able to hold himself back against Delthea. He literally has a combat art that allows him to leave opponents at 1 hp without killing them. So his words here are provably false. That’s more than just interpretation at that point. That is quite literally what the text is outright admitting. 

Incorrect, in Tatiana's dialogue Alm directly confirms that he sees anyone who opposes him on the battlefield as an enemy. Even saying that they will have no choice but to retaliate if Zeke does anything. Fighting whatever's in front of someone doesn't mean attacking whoever whenever. He sees value in Celica's perspective and literally all he does in his route is primarily fight enemies. So he's right. A ton of his dialogue early on is even about a constant desire to fight. "Why let me use a sword if you won't let me fight"

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