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1 minute ago, omegaxis1 said:

There's nothing wrong with criticizing issues. 

I LOVE Awakening, but I'll criticize a lot of the flaws it has. 

The game is flawed. You can like it, love it even, while still accepting the issues it has. 

No such thing as perfection.

I know it has flaws, but people keep acting as if they fucking make the game trash with no redeemable qualities, and I'm so fucking sick of it!

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Just now, Gregster101 said:

God, you guys all act like it's such a fucking sin to like Shadows of Valentia. No matter where I go, it feels like there's a bunch of people that feel the need to crap talk over one of my favorite Fire Emblem games AND favorite games of all time, and I'm fucking sick of it!

No one is saying you can't like anything. I don't respect you any less because you like a game I didn't. The only problem is that you take all criticism of the game as a personal attack on yourself.

 

If anything, I envy you, because I wanted to like it. And if every part of it was as good as the art, music, side characters, and presentation, I probably would have. 

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16 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Also, the entire commoner vs nobility thing fails when Alm's preaching results in him being the chosen one of destiny that is the heir to the Rigelian throne.

Personally, that hasn't bothered me either. I don't think Alm's "specialness" makes his preaching any less valid. It's a lesson worth teaching, no matter if you're part of the flexible or rigid parts of the system.

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1 minute ago, Fabulously Olivier said:

No one is saying you can't like anything. I don't respect you any less because you like a game I didn't. The only problem is that you take all criticism of the game as a personal attack on yourself.

 

If anything, I envy you, because I wanted to like it. And if every part of it was as good as the art, music, side characters, and presentation, I probably would have. 

WELL QUIT ACTING LIKE IT'S A FUCKING SIN TO LIKE IT!

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4 minutes ago, Gregster101 said:

WELL QUIT ACTING LIKE IT'S A FUCKING SIN TO LIKE IT!

I never did. It's not Shaq Fu, ET for the Atari, Superman 64, or Dynasty Warriors 9; it has redeeming qualities and you're not wrong for liking it.

 

But by the same token, I am not required to like it, and I'm not required to be silent about not liking it. That's unfair. 

Edited by Fabulously Olivier

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Just now, Gregster101 said:

WELL QUIT ACTING LIKE IT'S A FUCKING SIN TO LIKE IT!

 

3 minutes ago, Gregster101 said:

I know it has flaws, but people keep acting as if they fucking make the game trash with no redeemable qualities, and I'm so fucking sick of it!

I get that you are upset, but please, calm down. Relax. No one is trying to attack your opinion or changing it. All they are trying to do is express the issues they have. 

1 minute ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Personally, that hasn't bothered me either. I don't think Alm's "specialness" makes his preaching any less valid. It's a lesson worth teaching, no matter if you're part of the flexible or rigid parts of the system.

But it sort of loses some value because he is a born leader. People wouldn't see this as someone earning his position, but someone that was born for it. Alm was born as royalty. The commoners like Gray and Tobin that hung out with him, they already felt that Alm was in a different league than them. 

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Alm wasn't really all that ruthless in the original Gaiden. Sure, he has the line about crushing bastards, but that was really it, and even then it didn't automatically mean he was a merciless killer. In both the original and the remake, Alm didn't go to war against Rigel out of bloodlust or being hungry for power but rather because Rigel set aid to Chancellor Desaix which ended up escalating the conflict, which fit into Rudolfs plans of uniting the continent through a total war no matter who won. There really isn't much reason provided for why Alm should be angry at Rigel, and even the earlier invasion was a war for resources after King Lima IV lied about providing food to Rigel during a famine, and none of the Zofians try to defend his actions (heck it's mentioned that there were a number of rebellions across Lima's reign, and even the Deliverance is against Desaix more because he's a cruel tyrant than because the previous leader was a good king).

I do agree that Alm recklessness should have been emphasized more, and it would be even more interesting to see it bite him in the butt after his earlier escapades were largely consequence free. You could technically say that this happens with Nuibaba and Rudolf, but both of those had practical reasons for attacking them, as Lukas mentions that wiping the former out would get some goodwill from the local citizens (which it does, and going after Jerome first will have the Rigelean villagers be angry at the Deliverance for killing Zeke in the process) and the latter is the Emperor of the Kingdom and outright ordered his men before the battle started that if he fell, they should surrender. This could be addressed in a sequel/expansion/DLC that shows what happened after the events of Echoes, though I'm not holding my breath (despite still hoping that we'll get one someday).

As mentioned by others, there's not much reason for why Alm would be ruthless given his upbringing. All throughout the game he's participating in the war more to serve his nation than because he loves the thrill of battle, and he does repeat this as his reason for fighting rather often. I won't lie that him having a hidden bloodthirsty side would have been interesting, but given how much he talks and interacts with friends and subordinates, chances are that if that side of his did start to rise up and become a problem, others would have stepped in to help him overcome it. Essentially, he'd end up a prototype Dmitri if he actually got therapy.

I do see where you are coming from, and I do believe that Character vs Narrative is one of the most noticeable issues of Shadow Of Valentia's story. There are several things that don't really fit in with the lesson the game is trying to tell, but make sense given what is established about the character in question or from an in-universe standpoint. A sword that can only be wielded by those with royal blood doesn't really fit in a story about station not mattering... but as a sign of friendship between two royal families, it's not a bad gift idea. Heck, I hate the big twist from a narrative standpoint because it knowingly shoots itself in the foot... while at the same time being extremely interested in what happens next in the world itself. Part of the reason I would love to see the story be continued is because I am curious about how all the various characters would respond to this twist when the excitement of "we have to defeat the final boss!" dies down. I am curious in seeing the various causes behind the rebellions mentioned in the epilogue. I am invested in seeing what Alm does when his forced-upon responsibilities sink in and how he faces the truth that the lesson he previously proudly proclaimed was rendered irrelevant by something outside of his control. Yeah, Shadows of Valentia could have handled its messages with more grace, but there is more to a story than just themes.

Also dude, use paragraphs. A wall of text doesn't help to quickly identify the main points you're trying to make.

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8 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

But it sort of loses some value because he is a born leader. People wouldn't see this as someone earning his position, but someone that was born for it. Alm was born as royalty. The commoners like Gray and Tobin that hung out with him, they already felt that Alm was in a different league than them. 

Well, here's the thing: No one is born equal. Even in real life. While there are things we can strive to with hard work, determination, and things like that, ultimately there will be things we will never be equal about. What we must strive for is for equity and respect of our differences. Maybe Alm's position is fixed, but almost everything else is not. Besides, Alm being entitled to a kingdom matters little since Saber, Kamui, and Jesse went on to form their own. Then you have Archanea next door where many of its kingdoms were also likewise established. Then you have the fact Alm still had to work for it. He literally conquered Rigel, up to committing unwitting patricide. If anything, he got entitled to Rigel by right of conquest as much as his right by birth was.

Edited by Acacia Sgt

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Our very first scene with Alm includes him charging a band of soldiers to save his new friend. And I feel like that Alm is who we get for the rest of the game. He's strong and reckless, but only in service to helping the people he cares about. Having a version of Alm that loses sight of that might have been compelling in a gritty way, but hard to believe given his strict upbringing and solid support group. And also the character of Berkut would be worthless as a foil to Alm if Alm was just the same kind of guy but on the opposite team. 

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Just now, Acacia Sgt said:

Well, here's the thing: No one is born equal. Even in real life. While there are things we can strive to with hard work, determination, and things like that, ultimately there will be things we will never be equal about. What we must strive for is for equity and respect of our differences. Maybe Alm's position is fixed, but everything else is not. Besides, Alm being entitled to a kingdom matters little since Saber, Kamui, and Jesse went on to form their own. Then you have Archanea next door where many of its kingdoms were also likewise established. Then you have the fact Alm still had to work for it. He literally conquered Rigel, up to committing unwitting patricide. If anything, he got entitled to Rigel by right of conquest as much as his right by birth was.

That overall contradicts Alm's preaching efforts on Clive, trying to say that the life of a single girl is the same as the life of a princess. 

And overall, society would not see him as someone that "earned" his position, but someone that was destined for it because he was "born" for it. His skills, his abilities, everything that he got, they would not be seen as something he worked for but things he was born with. 

In fact, the fact that he could even stop Duma is cause he was born with the Brand, which lets him wield Falchion, and he's the child of destiny with Celica. 

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1 minute ago, Glennstavos said:

Our very first scene with Alm includes him charging a band of soldiers to save his new friend. And I feel like that Alm is who we get for the rest of the game. He's strong and reckless, but only in service to helping the people he cares about. Having a version of Alm that loses sight of that might have been compelling in a gritty way, but hard to believe given his strict upbringing and solid support group. And also the character of Berkut would be worthless as a foil to Alm if Alm was just the same kind of guy but on the opposite team. 

do you not know what foil is? cause a narrative foil is a character who's supposed to be similar yet different of which the main purpose is to highlight the positive aspects of the hero which could work if Alm was like Berkut in anyway but he isn't. Not once does Alm even remotely act anymore aggressively than than say Valbar. Not once does did I believe Alm and Berkut were meant to be foils because the story does a very very poor job at establishing that. It's more forced than Joker and Akechi from vanilla P5 and that was already like really bad. Again it would work if Alm was actually somewhat aggressive and stubborn but he's almost never portrayed that way

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1 minute ago, omegaxis1 said:

That overall contradicts Alm's preaching efforts on Clive, trying to say that the life of a single girl is the same as the life of a princess. 

And overall, society would not see him as someone that "earned" his position, but someone that was destined for it because he was "born" for it. His skills, his abilities, everything that he got, they would not be seen as something he worked for but things he was born with. 

In fact, the fact that he could even stop Duma is cause he was born with the Brand, which lets him wield Falchion, and he's the child of destiny with Celica. 

And the thing is, even the strength that he worked for is still an indirect byproduct of his station. Not everyone has the privilege of being personally trained by a great hero.

 

In a sense, everything that defines Alm was given to him. 

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1 minute ago, Fabulously Olivier said:

And the thing is, even the strength that he worked for is still an indirect byproduct of his station. Not everyone has the privilege of being personally trained by a great hero.

 

In a sense, everything that defines Alm was given to him. 

and y'know what that wouldn't be too much of an issue if the story never made point of it but because it does well....yeah....

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7 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

That overall contradicts Alm's preaching efforts on Clive, trying to say that the life of a single girl is the same as the life of a princess. 

And overall, society would not see him as someone that "earned" his position, but someone that was destined for it because he was "born" for it. His skills, his abilities, everything that he got, they would not be seen as something he worked for but things he was born with. 

In fact, the fact that he could even stop Duma is cause he was born with the Brand, which lets him wield Falchion, and he's the child of destiny with Celica. 

Well, it is. A life is a life.

Some things he was born with, but he still had to work for the rest. If you want some Gameplay and Story Integration: It matters little if he's the only one who can wield Falchion, he won't be killing Duma if he's still Lv1. Even if his Lv1 isn't equal to, say, Tobin's Lv1. If anything, he showed he was worthy of the thing that were handed to him, showing it was no mistake he was born with them.

So? Just because he's the only one that can do X doesn't mean there has to be bitterness about others not being able to do X. Strive for what you can achieve, not what others can.

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7 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

do you not know what foil is? cause a narrative foil is a character who's supposed to be similar yet different of which the main purpose is to highlight the positive aspects of the hero which could work if Alm was like Berkut in anyway but he isn't. Not once does Alm even remotely act anymore aggressively than than say Valbar. Not once does did I believe Alm and Berkut were meant to be foils because the story does a very very poor job at establishing that. It's more forced than Joker and Akechi from vanilla P5 and that was already like really bad. Again it would work if Alm was actually somewhat aggressive and stubborn but he's almost never portrayed that way

Debating literary terminology sounds like not a fun time, but I know the purpose of the foil is only to highlight the characterization of somebody else, usually in the form of two characters born into or placed in a similar situation or choice yet turn out differently. There's no requirement of having x amount of similarities. But if we had to tally them, they're both incredibly revered generals to the point where they heard of each other before they met, they're both next in line for the Rigelian throne - and related, they both draw strength from the woman they love, and both face high expectations based on their birthright (Berkut's relation to Rudolf, Alm's fake relation to Mycen). 

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1 minute ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Well, it is. A life is a life.

Some things he was born with, but he still had to work for the rest. If you want some Gameplay and Story Integration: It matters little if he's the only one who can wield Falchion, he won't be killing Duma if he's still Lv1. Even if his Lv1 isn't equal to, say, Tobin's Lv1. If anything, he showed he was worthy of the thing that were handed to him, showing it was no mistake he was born with them.

So? Just because he's the only one that can do X doesn't mean there has to be bitterness about others not being able to do X. Strive for what you can achieve, not what others can.

Except that's not true. Because the life of a peasant affects little. But a life of a princess will affect the life of many more, because people put more weight onto the life of a princess over a peasant. 

And as mentioned, even Alm's opportunities were given to him, rather than earned. He was trained by Mycen, he had the chance to be scouted and overall made the leader because of his supposed relation to Mycen, and overall opportunities were presented because of his Brand. 

Let's compare Alm to Anri. 

Anri was a peasant with no resources, no status, nothing. He fell in love with Artemis when she went into hiding, and resolved to go get Falchion, and thus traversed through deserts and volcanoes, and climbed a large mountain, attaining Falchion. He proved through merit, not birth, of having Falchion to slay Medeus. 

Alm, on the other hand, was raised by Mycen because it was always prophesied that he would save Valentia, and only he could wield Falchion. 

Anri was merit, Alm was birth. 

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There's multiple tickets about this topic.  Try to keep it civil while I sort out what happened.

If I have to warn people for posts between this one and whenever I figure out whether or not I need to do anything about said tickets, it's going to be a suspension first and questions later.

EDIT: Done.

So, my take on this topic: Don't make Valentia's story into something that it isn't.  The opposing themes in main characters is clearly a cool trope, but either the original writing was so bad that it completely missed the point, or the theme is something else.  I see Alm as a what-if. . .as in, "what if we took Duma's principles and tempered it with Mila's?"  He felt like the successful merging between the two.  There's arguments for why this is a good/bad thing, but IMO it's irrelevant.  Alm feels like what Duma's people needed to become, but Rigelian society was in no position to compromise.  Hence why someone who had the best of both worlds took over.  Together, we are stronger.

Edited by eclipse

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26 minutes ago, Glennstavos said:

Debating literary terminology sounds like not a fun time, but I know the purpose of the foil is only to highlight the characterization of somebody else, usually in the form of two characters born into or placed in a similar situation or choice yet turn out differently. There's no requirement of having x amount of similarities. But if we had to tally them, they're both incredibly revered generals to the point where they heard of each other before they met, they're both next in line for the Rigelian throne - and related, they both draw strength from the woman they love, and both face high expectations based on their birthright (Berkut's relation to Rudolf, Alm's fake relation to Mycen). 

I mean yeah those are all great things but then at that point what's the point of their foil relationship. What aspects of Alm are supposed to be highlighted here? What makes a foil relationship work are the similarities between them which highlight the differences. Those similarities are very small and are only small nuances that are supposed to add to the overall package. But what is that package? as far as I can tell, Berkut is essentially what Alm could've been had he not snapped out of it thanks to Celica which again is paralleled by Rinea and Berkut whose romance is toxic and it's due to that toxicity that results in the tragic ending they meet together which is untrue of Alm and Celica who are able to come to a mutual understanding and forgive one another. The problem though is once again Alm's lack of aggression. There's no parallel here because Alm doesn't need Celica to calm him down. He's already perfect so why does he need her? It just doesn't work because Alm is too much of a nice guy.

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32 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Except that's not true. Because the life of a peasant affects little. But a life of a princess will affect the life of many more, because people put more weight onto the life of a princess over a peasant. 

And as mentioned, even Alm's opportunities were given to him, rather than earned. He was trained by Mycen, he had the chance to be scouted and overall made the leader because of his supposed relation to Mycen, and overall opportunities were presented because of his Brand. 

Let's compare Alm to Anri. 

Anri was a peasant with no resources, no status, nothing. He fell in love with Artemis when she went into hiding, and resolved to go get Falchion, and thus traversed through deserts and volcanoes, and climbed a large mountain, attaining Falchion. He proved through merit, not birth, of having Falchion to slay Medeus. 

Alm, on the other hand, was raised by Mycen because it was always prophesied that he would save Valentia, and only he could wield Falchion. 

Anri was merit, Alm was birth. 

Precisely. That's part of the problem on choosing equality over equity or justice. Many tend to judge over differences.

Mycen also taught the other Ram characters. Alm wasn't the only one who benefited. While Mycen's position was what earned him the spot of Deliverance Leader, he still had to work to keep the spot. If he had failed, Clive would've likely stripped him of command, (supposed) grand-kid of Mycen or not. Instead, Clive gets to see, even when the old man in Zofia Castle and Ferdinard point out Alm couldn't be Mycen's grandson, the reason Clive made Alm  commander in the first place, that his decision wasn't a mistake. Events like saving Delthea were instead evidence of the contrary. In the end, people can be born with privileges... and squander it. They have to work to uphold those privileges.

That's not a fair comparison. Compare Anri with Rigel himself, or Alm with Marth; but not Anri with Alm. Which proves my point. Anri, Adrah, Iote, Mostyn, Cartas, Ordwin, Rigel, Zofia. They all worked hard to gain what they did.

Marth, like Alm, was basically a chosen one. Once Cornelius died and with Elice missing, Marth was basically the chosen one. Perhaps not by prophecy, but as the only one capable of wielding Falchion, he was in the same position as Alm. Like Alm, he had to fight and earn the things that would've been his my right of birth. He had to wrestle both Altea and the Falchion from his enemies. They weren't handed to him on a silver platter.

They all have merit. The difference is that some only have merit of work, and others merit of birth and work. If anything, it's a higher burden for the latter, since they have a bigger workload. Proving their merit of birth, which results in merit of work anyway. What's the point of being handed something, if you can't prove that you truly deserve it? Even in our world, a King who inherited his title had to work to show he deserved to be King. Otherwise, he'd be deposed.

Edited by Acacia Sgt

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26 minutes ago, eclipse said:

So, my take on this topic: Don't make Valentia's story into something that it isn't.  The opposing themes in main characters is clearly a cool trope, but either the original writing was so bad that it completely missed the point, or the theme is something else.  I see Alm as a what-if. . .as in, "what if we took Duma's principles and tempered it with Mila's?"  He felt like the successful merging between the two.  There's arguments for why this is a good/bad thing, but IMO it's irrelevant.  Alm feels like what Duma's people needed to become, but Rigelian society was in no position to compromise.  Hence why someone who had the best of both worlds took over.  Together, we are stronger.

I wouldn't have too much of an issue with that if Celica were not a thing in this story because then Alm representing both ideals throughout the entire story would make sense but the fact that Celica is a thing renders that moot in a way because she's supposed to Mila's representative. I wouldn't mind it so much if Alm represented both near the tail end of the story but the fact that it's through the whole thing is a bit of an issue if you ask me.

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I agree with a lot of your points, but Alm is still my favorite lord regardless. He's likable without being annoying, and despite popular belief, he's not a gary stu or whatever you call it. I enjoyed the story for what it was, while I will openly state it was flawed. I feel similarly about Awakening. But really, every game and lord is flawed in some sort of way and I don't really have a game or lord I dislike. Sorry my writing sucks it's almost 12:00 and I'm very tired but torturing myself by staying awake. 

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2 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Precisely. That's part of the problem on choosing equality over equity or justice. Many tend to judge over differences.

Mycen also taught the other Ram characters. Alm wasn't the only one who benefited. While Mycen's position was what earned him the spot of Deliverance Leader, he still had to work to keep the spot. If he had failed, Clive would've likely stripped him of command, (supposed) grand-kid of Mycen or not. Instead, Clive gets to see, even when the old man in Zofia Castle and Ferdinard point out Alm couldn't be Mycen's grandson, the reason Clive made Alm  commander in the first place, that his decision wasn't a mistake. Events like saving Delthea were instead evidence of the contrary. In the end, people can be born with privileges... and squander it. They have to work to uphold those privileges.

That's not a fair comparison. Compare Anri with Rigel himself, or Alm with Marth; but not Anri with Alm. Which proves my point. Anri, Adrah, Iote, Mostyn, Cartas, Ordwin, Rigel, Zofia. They all worked hard to gain what they did.

Marth, like Alm, was basically a chosen one. Once Cornelius died and with Elice missing, Marth was basically the chosen one. Perhaps not by prophecy, but as the only one capable of wielding Falchion, he was in the same position as Alm. Like Alm, he had to fight and earn the things that would've been his my right of birth. He had to wrestle both Altea and the Falchion from his enemies. They weren't handed to him on a silver platter.

They all have merit. The difference is that some only have merit of work, and others merit of birth and work. If anything, it's a higher burden for the latter, since they have a bigger workload. Proving their merit of birth, which results in merit of work anyway. What's the point of being handed something, if you can't prove that you truly deserve it?

Which overall why Alm's entire concept of the two lives are the same is false. Because people put more merit onto certain lives than others.

Mycen did train the others, but the others only got taught how to fight. But Alm was taught specifically military strategy and tactics, which Alm himself stated he was taught by, hence why he volunteered. Mycen was specially training Alm to lead a war, whereas the others were just taught how to fight. Big difference in that regard. Also, keep in mind that Alm was only given the position he did because of his connection to Mycen. Even despite the doubts, it doesn't change that the reason the position was given in the first place was for connections. Otherwise, the opportunity itself would not exist.

No, it is very much a fair comparison. Because I'm comparing how true commoner that has nothing to his name compares to Alm, that was completely bound to things by birth. 

Anri had nothing to his name. He had no connections, no resources, nothing. His journey to attain Falchion was based purely on merit, unlike Alm. Marth is not mentioned is because he's not going about a philosophy of commoners and nobility. Marth was still given opportunities because of his connections based on birth. 

And that's just it. The philosophy that Alm goes about where the station of one's birth means nothing fails because it's Alm. You aren't sending a message that anyone can be great if the greatness you get is only a result of your blood ties.

If Alm really wanted to push his ideals that birth does not matter, he should have changed the system to be like Edelgard's: a meritocracy. But he stuck to a dynasty, overall still keeping bloodlines and nobility intact.

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5 minutes ago, CustardPudding said:

I agree with a lot of your points, but Alm is still my favorite lord regardless. He's likable without being annoying, and despite popular belief, he's not a gary stu or whatever you call it. I enjoyed the story for what it was, while I will openly state it was flawed. I feel similarly about Awakening. But really, every game and lord is flawed in some sort of way and I don't really have a game or lord I dislike. Sorry my writing sucks it's almost 12:00 and I'm very tired but torturing myself by staying awake. 

I mean he’s certainly likable. Hell even I like Alm, despite my grievances with how the story handles him. Like I said he’s a fine character in a vacuum and in any other story he could work. He just doesn’t work for this story in particular cause he’s written like a static flat arc character when the story wants him to be a dynamic character who changes throughout the story and just doesn’t work as a result 

Edited by Ottservia

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9 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

I wouldn't have too much of an issue with that if Celica were not a thing in this story because then Alm representing both ideals throughout the entire story would make sense but the fact that Celica is a thing renders that moot in a way because she's supposed to Mila's representative. I wouldn't mind it so much if Alm represented both near the tail end of the story but the fact that it's through the whole thing is a bit of an issue if you ask me.

Celica feels more like an addition to the story, rather than a proper main character.

You'll also need to account for how writing and characters have evolved.  You've seen the "discussions" regarding a certain female character who's actually written as a main character.  When Gaiden was originally released, such things weren't the narrative style.  Women played a far more passive role in the stories.

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8 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

I mean yeah those are all great things but then at that point what's the point of their foil relationship. What aspects of Alm are supposed to be highlighted here? What makes a foil relationship work are the similarities between them which highlight the differences. Those similarities are very small and are only small nuances that are supposed to add to the overall package. But what is that package? as far as I can tell, Berkut is essentially what Alm could've been had he not snapped out of it thanks to Celica which again is paralleled by Rinea and Berkut whose romance is toxic and it's due to that toxicity that results in the tragic ending they meet together which is untrue of Alm and Celica who are able to come to a mutual understanding and forgive one another. 

You just answered your own question. Berkut is Alm if he didn't have his humble, disciplined upbringing and a support group to help him get over each loss. He loses to Alm, gets tempted by Nuibaba - a walking embodiment of immorality, rather than believing in himself like he always had. About the only nitpick I have with their foil relationship is that Alm never suffers a significant loss leading him to doubt his own strength.He does "lose" to Rigel when Berkut shatters the mirror, but I don't remember any scene following that where Alm's resolve falters the way Berkut's does. Thus we never get a comparison of their reactions.

Berkut and Rinea are toxic? I don't think so. I know the OTP minefield I'm walking into by arguing about a romantic pairing, but that's certainly not how their scenes are written. Both are unhappy as individuals, then happy with each other. Their lives end in a tragic misunderstanding, but it doesn't make their relationship false. 

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